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On December 09 2010 03:04 imbecile wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UwHgv.jpg) I found this to be quite effective on steppes. But I'm bad, so take that with a grain of salt. If need be this is supplanted with a few zerglings too.
i may be wrong, but im pretty sure you literally cannot have all that by the time the rush gets to you? unless my understanding of the rine/scv all in isn't correct
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On December 09 2010 03:04 imbecile wrote:I found this to be quite effective on steppes. But I'm bad, so take that with a grain of salt. If need be this is supplanted with a few zerglings too.
Won't be built in time, and what happens when your enemy walks around your spine crawlers behind your hatchery to kill it and all your drones?
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On December 09 2010 03:04 imbecile wrote:I found this to be quite effective on steppes. But I'm bad, so take that with a grain of salt. If need be this is supplanted with a few zerglings too.
You have an unnecessary evo chamber there. If you place 1 evo chamber touching the edge of the ramp, you can have the spine crawler tucked in right behind it completely walling the ramp off.
The only problem with that when talking about marine/SCV attacks is your creep won't be spread far enough to set that up.
I would also like your spine crawler on the right to be about 2 clicks more to the right, you're leaving yourself a tiny bit too open for people to run past and camp behind your mineral line.
If you need a picture I can upload one when I get home today.
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lol pictures get lots of responses i guess...
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yea imbecile, sorry, but your picture is honestly 100000000000000000% irrelevant to the current conversation
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On December 09 2010 03:19 vicariouscheese wrote:
i may be wrong, but im pretty sure you literally cannot have all that by the time the rush gets to you? unless my understanding of the rine/scv all in isn't correct
As I said, I'm bad, which means my ladder opponents too. And I'm also random, which probably helps too.
But it's true, it won't be all there when the first marines arrive. Usually only 1-2 spines and a queen are ready, or are just about to be ready. The rest get built during the attack, which sometimes allows you to trap him.
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On December 09 2010 03:09 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 02:55 hoovehand wrote:
2. why do zerg players refuse to make a second hatch in main? if terran goes 3 rax then he's already paid the same expense as an extra hatch. you don't need the income of 2 base untill about 6 minutes where you'll reach full saturation. if terran goes T1 rush then it's expected that zerg will struggle/lose if he's expanded and trying to power drones.
You can do 2, but in what situations is it going to be better? You 100% HAVE to defend your natural ramp otherwise he can bunker you in, expand, and win. So if you're defending your ramp and making a hatchery, why wouldn't you put it at the natural?
Maybe one should give 14 hatch first at ramp another shot .. the advantage is its defendability, you can place a spine poking from the cliff down, so it can't be attacked that easy. The queen can help defending, while still injecting larva (into ramp-hatch). This way a complete ramp block is impossible for the terran, cause the spine kills the bunker. In base hatch is at disadvantage once main gets saturated, however this is much later in the game, especially if you get rushed. You need an early third at nat as soon the rush is defended.
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As a 2700+ zerg on the NA ladder, I believe hatch first builds to be best suited to defend early pressure and get to mid/late game without a severe economic disadvantage.
This is KNOWING that there is approximately 90% chance of 2rax before scout (lol @ FOTM), about 40-50% chance of a scv-marine timing attack all-in (when seeing the hatch first) and 10% chance they play standard.
The 11 pool opening has gotten a LOT of publicity, so much that I can almost guarentee that 95+% of the pro and semi-pro level zergs have talked about it, and 80%+ (if not more) have personally given it a try. The problem with this build is that you sacrifice early larvae to build that pool, even if you make it up "later", you will be way behind due to the lack of earlier economy.
The standard July-zerg opening is decent at defending the rush and you won't be *THAT* behind economically, assuming the terran doesn't pressure with first 2 marines + 4 scv's to bunker the bottom of your ramp. The terran will know the exact timing of zergling speed and can abandon his rush and go back to his base if he notices you made 8+ zerglings to stop his 2rax rush. If he does this correctly, I believe you will be behind economically no matter what you decide to do with your initial larvae (either by being bunkered in, or by making zerglings too early).
This *might* be the safest opening vs 14gas 14pool after 1.2 patch goes through, but I forsee taking your natural a problem due to the lack of creep spread and inability to properly scout the terrans build (4rax all-in or 2rax CC, etc). A 4 rax all-in will have too many marines to defend your building hatchery with pure zerglings and banelings. A roach opening will have too low econ to defend against 4rax marines.
Hatch first has been seen a billion times, and I would agree with ret / idra in saying this build is probably the current solution to a 2rax opener, unfortunately that just seems to be how the mechanics work out in ZvT atm.
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On December 08 2010 21:27 Azzur wrote:
I can understand how idra lost of MVP in the third game; that attack came so fast he couldn't react in time (must've guessed wrong).
After the initial pressure, the terran hat 19 scvs and i think idra hat 14 or 15 drones. At that point the game was basically already over, no matter what transition.
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On December 08 2010 18:13 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 18:02 justindab0mb wrote:
A lot of you guys are making totally irrelevant answers which have nothing to do with the OP's quote. What he's saying is that 14 hatch is safer vs the 2-rax build compared to pool first builds because of the early creep spread. The quote in the OP says nothing about the creep. I also find it odd that the quote in the OP doesn't consider that 20 Zerglings can block the Terran from expanding if he only has 5 marines to guard it with.
The terran doesn't need to lift his command center to his natural in order to gain a ridiculous lead against a 1-base zerg. All he needs to do is make it an orbital command and keep pumping some scv's for the time the zerg will put down a hatch while safely bunkering / building a wall against all-in play, then move scv's + orbital once he feels safe.
The zerg has to be 1 base ahead to stand a chance in a standard-game vs terran, for the most part.
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On December 09 2010 03:09 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 02:55 hoovehand wrote:
1. it's a map issue
2. why do zerg players refuse to make a second hatch in main? if terran goes 3 rax then he's already paid the same expense as an extra hatch. you don't need the income of 2 base untill about 6 minutes where you'll reach full saturation. if terran goes T1 rush then it's expected that zerg will struggle/lose if he's expanded and trying to power drones.
3. take fast expo and then drop a 3rd hatch, then attack the terran with 3 x hatchery worth of lings. he'd need a critical mass of marines or 4+ barracks to stand a chance. beat his all-in with an all-in of your own.
the whole point of a rush is to punish fast expo. if you could safely take your natural on 14 supply in every match then doesn't that completely destroy any possibility of very early aggression? You can do 2, but in what situations is it going to be better? You 100% HAVE to defend your natural ramp otherwise he can bunker you in, expand, and win. So if you're defending your ramp and making a hatchery, why wouldn't you put it at the natural? For 3 you can't support 2 hatcheries + 2 queens full zergling for a little while, if you make a 3rd hatch that time is even further out. You can ling all-in, but if he's walled off with rax you're not likely to get through (at best you contain him).
the thing is, it's not an economic cock-up for zerg if you drop an extra hatch - because you can produce extra drones from it. from my experience if you're making drone/roach/ling you need an extra 0.5 hatcheries and queens per mining base in order to spend all minerals...
with 3 hatcheries in the early game you can make an insane number of lings without really hurting your drone count.
you can get to 100 supply in well under 10 minutes. regardless, the 'safe' way to play is to get the 3rd hatch in main before the marine scv all-in timing... therefore you can get more than enough units to deal with it.
if the scv marine all-in doesn't arrive, you can always go for a baneling bust, because any terran who's trying to expand on 5-6 minutes will have great difficulty with speedling/baneling pressure. unless they have hellions, in which case the mutalisk master plan is looking good.
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On December 09 2010 02:55 hoovehand wrote:
1. it's a map issue
2. why do zerg players refuse to make a second hatch in main? if terran goes 3 rax then he's already paid the same expense as an extra hatch. you don't need the income of 2 base untill about 6 minutes where you'll reach full saturation. if terran goes T1 rush then it's expected that zerg will struggle/lose if he's expanded and trying to power drones.
3. take fast expo and then drop a 3rd hatch, then attack the terran with 3 x hatchery worth of lings. he'd need a critical mass of marines or 4+ barracks to stand a chance. beat his all-in with an all-in of your own.
the whole point of a rush is to punish fast expo. if you could safely take your natural on 14 supply in every match then doesn't that completely destroy any possibility of very early aggression?
The major thing you're ignoring is that the T can scout 2 hatch in-base and build a command center with bunkers and now you're already pretty far behind economically if you can't do serious damage with whatever lings you scrounge up. The other thing is that he can see you going for a hatchery and push you with a timing just as the 3rd hatch finishes but before you get an inject from it because you're still on 1 base economy.
A major part of the strength of the 2 rax before orbital build is that it's not required to be all-in and doesn't follow a specific pattern. Everyone envisions the marine/scv attack coming in, but often doesn't see the attacks when the marines either don't show up or show up later. I'm sure every high-end Zerg has played those games and knows they're often worse than dealing with the marine/scv rush. It's not like 4-gate, where if you build 4 gateways and then don't actually move out you're not doing so well.
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Looking at the wins in the GSL, the heavy majority of Zergs went hatchery first, even if the opponent had shown a likelihood for 2rax all-ins before. So maybe there is something to it.
On the other hand, on all but one occasion (Jys vs NesTea game 2 in the Ro64), if the Zerg did go pool first against a 2rax all-in, the Zerg won handily.
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My 2c on the subject is that Ret and Idra would have a better understanding of all this if they had some more aggressive builds in their arsenal.
Instead their opponents abuse the fact that they will start off building at least 14 drones 100% of the time. I think choosing pool or hatch first in this situation has very little ramification for the early game.
If they balanced their game by opening 10 pool (11 w/ extractor or whatever) and 14 hatch a certain % of the time, thelarge diversity in builds make the all ins become much less effective
There is never going to be a "safe" build
But I'm just a 1750 diamond scrub =\
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On December 09 2010 03:34 trypt wrote:The 11 pool opening has gotten a LOT of publicity, so much that I can almost guarentee that 95+% of the pro and semi-pro level zergs have talked about it, and 80%+ (if not more) have personally given it a try. The problem with this build is that you sacrifice early larvae to build that pool, even if you make it up "later", you will be way behind due to the lack of earlier economy.
The pause in larvae can be eliminated entirely if you just 12 Pool instead.
I was under the impression that the 11 overpool was just a couple second pause in larvae. I haven't actually tried it myself since I expect there to be very little difference from a 12 Pool, which I settled on long ago as being much better than any late Pool first build, since I judge saving 13-16 seconds on the Pool outweighs the extra 25 minerals I might get by delaying the Pool.
The 11 pool opening has gotten a LOT of publicity, so much that I can almost guarentee that 95+% of the pro and semi-pro level zergs have talked about it, and 80%+ (if not more) have personally given it a try.
Yes, it has the publicity, but I still see a lot of people dismiss it out of hand, on the "common knowledge" that middle pools cannot possibly be good for anything but a rush.
Some of the comments regarding 2-rax have been along the lines of how very long it takes for the inject larvae to happen -- something that is a more significant problem of late pool builds. And Liquid`Ret's reply on this thread is comparing to a 15 Pool build.
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If you didn't notice yet, Artosis doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Terrible caster. At least he's kinda funny though.
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On December 09 2010 05:05 ExoD wrote:
If you didn't notice yet, Artosis doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Terrible caster. At least he's kinda funny though.
I'm sure him in his handsome nerdiness knows more about sc than you do.
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Artosis is actually pretty good at this game.
Now that the Zerg balance team of Ret and Idra have spoken... terran will finally have to have 2 supply depots to build a rax... its about time someone spoke up about this...
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On December 09 2010 05:05 ExoD wrote:
If you didn't notice yet, Artosis doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Terrible caster. At least he's kinda funny though.
Yeah, he must know nothing. I wonder how he got to GSL RO64 knowing nothing.
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On December 08 2010 20:17 Liquid`Ret wrote:There are so many transitions for terrans and you wont be able to scout them; Vs 4 rax you ideally want banelings, vs 2 rax cc you want a lot of drones to be able to keep up in an economic game, vs hellion followups you ideally want some roaches, vs banshees you need a lair and a bunch of queens...
The problem is you can't scout, and on close position, the transition comes soooo fast,
It still takes about 4 minutes between starting a Refinery and popping a Banshee.
You think an aggressive response to 2 rax CC is infeasible? It would be rather convenient if the same army that would defend you from 4 rax could also be used to quash an any attempt to move out to his natural -- or at least be able to cover you taking a third.
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EPT
