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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
@morrow usually the bunker rush comes early before the hatch in the nat can creep the ramp. This is also when you have either a few or no lings, just drones to try to kill the scv making the bunker blockade. So going 2 base does not really help with the bunker blocking because the timing of the bunker rush is ahead of the pool and ahead of the FE hatch. btw are you the mouzmorrow? | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
On December 08 2010 17:26 13ThirtySeven wrote: You NEED to do hatch first at natural, otherwise you're economically behind. You don't necessarily need to pull more drones; you just need to stall enough time for spine crawler to finish. You NEED to hatch first? No no I do not know how you came up with this logic. Yes, getting the hatch down asap is extremely helpful to get econ moving but it is not NEEDED to win. You can still win without going hatch first. and situations call for different Build orders. What if the Toss or Terran is doing a proxy attack? What if your ramp is blocked...do you foolishly let that hatch build? Lets use logic to address this issue: Dealing with the Rush In the early game your main will most likely not be saturated. So there is little bonus splitting your 16-17 workers in half and sending them off to a different hatch. So until you are about to become fully saturated, the bonus of an extra hatch is just extra larvae and creep. However, the queen can deal with this issue or you can use a safer IN base hatch. The problem arises when Zerg becomes saturated and he does not have a expansion. Thus, timing an expansion a bit later on once the rush has been dealt with is viable. But most Zergs like having that fast expansion because the Zerg has the ability to simultaneously build drones allowing for faster saturation. This is why we put down the fast hatch to make the most out of the drones. But like I said earlier, in the early game and rush phase there is little bonus of having workers mining in two different mineral lines because the total amount of workers would not even saturate one base. that's my reasoning from experience | ||
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justindab0mb
United States213 Posts
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On December 08 2010 18:02 justindab0mb wrote: A lot of you guys are making totally irrelevant answers which have nothing to do with the OP's quote. What he's saying is that 14 hatch is safer vs the 2-rax build compared to pool first builds because of the early creep spread. The quote in the OP says nothing about the creep. I also find it odd that the quote in the OP doesn't consider that 20 Zerglings can block the Terran from expanding if he only has 5 marines to guard it with. | ||
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13ThirtySeven
99 Posts
Proxying is not even good anymore after the supply depot/zealot nerf. A drone should already be on patrol if you think the opponent will block your ramp. If you let that happen then you would have to cancel the hatch at the last second unless you want to lose the 300 minerals. That is the price that you'll have to pay for making that mistake. The reason Zerg needs to stay ahead one base is because they can't saturate all their bases. Otherwise Z just does not have enough larvae for their army. Also, the marines come way before the first larvae inject like ret stated. On December 08 2010 18:13 Hurkyl wrote: I also find it odd that the quote in the OP doesn't consider that 20 Zerglings could kill 5 Marines + CC. The marines would be behind the wall with the CC building in-base. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On December 08 2010 18:13 13ThirtySeven wrote: Well sure, Z can still win without going hatch first if they're doing some cheesy 1 base build or willing to accept the fact that you'll be behind. In which sense do you mean "behind"? Certainly making early units and delaying the expansion will be behind as compared to going hatch first and Droning for 5 minutes unpunished. But it's another thing entirely to assert that you will be behind as compared to the Terran position. | ||
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13ThirtySeven
99 Posts
On December 08 2010 18:28 Hurkyl wrote: In which sense do you mean "behind"? Certainly making early units and delaying the expansion will be behind as compared to going hatch first and Droning for 5 minutes unpunished. But it's another thing entirely to assert that you will be behind as compared to the Terran position. Behind as in you'll be behind economically in midgame. Also, a Zerg droning for five minutes is unrealistic when you're being pressured with 2 rax marines. Like ret said, as soon as T spots the pool first then they will simply fall back and build a CC to get ahead of you. You either have to accept to play with a disadvantage in midgame with pool first, or try to open hatch first and hope to start with an advantage after defending vs the early pressure. But the whole point that Ret makes is that it is impossible for Z to defend in short-rush distance maps such as Steppes of War. | ||
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goto
45 Posts
On December 08 2010 17:24 zak wrote: it's viable if the opponent commits to the scv/marine all in (much easier to defend). But if he just expands then your behind due to lack of hatch in natural. Another question: If he expands instead of committing to an all-in, can't you pressure him with your superior spawning ability (you have two hatches now) and expand to your natural while doing so? Or are you lacking the economy to do both? | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
So there is very little incentive for anyone to try different builds that give you less economy, and later creep to put a spine down at your natural base. a speedling opening build is probably safer against a standard 2 rax on most maps, when the 2 rax is executed in standard fashion, however, when you are close position with the terran, the 2 rax constant marines reinforces so fast, combined with the fact that slow zerglings are easily outmicro'ed by marines, and that the speed upgrade takes FOREVER; makes me believe that even when you are close position with the terran your best bet is to hatch first, dance your drone/ling around, plant a spine, and defend that way. This is because of the various sets of follow-ups terran can do, which will require you to have some sort of economy to deal with. They can put down a CC; They can put down 4 rax; They can put down a factory and do some sort of weird marine hellion allin follow-up. There are so many transitions for terrans and you wont be able to scout them; Vs 4 rax you ideally want banelings, vs 2 rax cc you want a lot of drones to be able to keep up in an economic game, vs hellion followups you ideally want some roaches, vs banshees you need a lair and a bunch of queens... The problem is you can't scout, and on close position, the transition comes soooo fast, that unless you guess correctly there is almost no way to deal with it except getting lucky and guessing right. This becomes especially true when you opened speedling. You still have to send down 3 drones with your first set of lings to pretend being bunker walled off, then you can still get pushed back all the time by constant 2 rax reinforcements because it takes so long for speed to finish. By that time, terran couldve transitioned into any of the earlier mentioned units and if he's good, you will have no idea about which one. 15 pool speed hurts your economy so bad that the whole guessing thing becomes especially true with this opening, there is simply no way for you to have a roach warren, a lair, a bunch of queens, a baneling nest in time to deal with whatever terran can do to you. This is why I prefer hatch first; If your drone/ling micro is rock solid and your opponent makes a mistake; you might even end up ahead. Sometimes you end up even, and sometimes you end up behind. I prefer this as opposed to being behind and left guessing about what terran is doing in every single game because of my opening. Yeah, we lose some games to scv/marine allins, but it's acceptable for us, on these positions/maps that are horrible for zerg to begin with. Imo maps with close position should be removed from the game. If terran is smart then zerg should rarely be able to win, and if they do then only cause they guessed right, whoop di doo. The reason IdrA won on steppes vs Mvp is cause MVP is so naive and thinks hes far superior to Idra and he placed a CC right under Idra's overlord and played completly standard. Idra didn't even have to guess, he knew what was coming a week b4 the series even started, and outplayed mvp in a standard game on steppes. | ||
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greycubed
United States615 Posts
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Samhax
1054 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
I mean blizz have random guys to not be biased that test those stuff... they PROBABLY know what they are doing ... (or so I want to believe) | ||
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
Let me first say this, I feel like it is entirely possible to stop 2 rax allins, even when they send all their scvs, on most maps with 15 hatch opening. Exceptions are : LT close pos, Meta close pos, steppes of war. So there is very little incentive for anyone to try different builds that give you less economy, and later creep to put a spine down at your natural base. Nice, and I can understand why the zergs all want to 15 hatch. I'm betting that their own internal testing (similar to Ret/Idra) has yielded the same results. This also means that with the exception of steppes of war, Nestea didn't defend completely correctly? I am also wondering why he didn't use the same defence as Idra did against mvp on steppes, considering that mvp and him are on the same team and would've discussed Idra's opening defence? The problem is you can't scout, and on close position, the transition comes soooo fast, that unless you guess correctly there is almost no way to deal with it except getting lucky and guessing right. Imo maps with close position should be removed from the game. If terran is smart then zerg should rarely be able to win, and if they do then only cause they guessed right, whoop di doo. This perhaps is the solution then? Bigger maps (e.g. shakuras plateau). I can understand how idra lost of MVP in the third game; that attack came so fast he couldn't react in time (must've guessed wrong). I'm also curious if the "Jinro-style" (i.e. quick 3rd base for springboard attacks) will catch-on amongst the Koreans. EDIT: > 250 posts = marine icon?? | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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ilmman
364 Posts
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
2. why do zerg players refuse to make a second hatch in main? if terran goes 3 rax then he's already paid the same expense as an extra hatch. you don't need the income of 2 base untill about 6 minutes where you'll reach full saturation. if terran goes T1 rush then it's expected that zerg will struggle/lose if he's expanded and trying to power drones. 3. take fast expo and then drop a 3rd hatch, then attack the terran with 3 x hatchery worth of lings. he'd need a critical mass of marines or 4+ barracks to stand a chance. beat his all-in with an all-in of your own. the whole point of a rush is to punish fast expo. if you could safely take your natural on 14 supply in every match then doesn't that completely destroy any possibility of very early aggression? | ||
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Hypatio
549 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:44 douggrz wrote: is 2nd hatch in the main not viable? spine crawler at the ramp? I'm surprised this hasn't been addressed yet, as I am also wondering if hatch first in the main is viable. Is it too hard to secure a third hatch in the natural for this to be viable or what? Second hatch in the main should also reduce the need for a fast queen since you will have greater creep spread, and you already have more larva. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On top of that, I really dont think the problem is as bad as alot of people are making it out to be. Yes, the zergs got knocked out of this tournament by this strategy, but Zerg won the last 2 GSLs, and Foxer was using this strategy in GSL2 and yet a zerg still won. You cant expect them to win all the time. But then again, obviously ret is a more experienced and way stronger player than me. Thats just how i see it from a 3rd party perspective of watching tournies and GSL games and with my own ladder experience. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UwHgv.jpg) I found this to be quite effective on steppes. But I'm bad, so take that with a grain of salt. If need be this is supplanted with a few zerglings too. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 09 2010 02:55 hoovehand wrote: 1. it's a map issue 2. why do zerg players refuse to make a second hatch in main? if terran goes 3 rax then he's already paid the same expense as an extra hatch. you don't need the income of 2 base untill about 6 minutes where you'll reach full saturation. if terran goes T1 rush then it's expected that zerg will struggle/lose if he's expanded and trying to power drones. 3. take fast expo and then drop a 3rd hatch, then attack the terran with 3 x hatchery worth of lings. he'd need a critical mass of marines or 4+ barracks to stand a chance. beat his all-in with an all-in of your own. the whole point of a rush is to punish fast expo. if you could safely take your natural on 14 supply in every match then doesn't that completely destroy any possibility of very early aggression? You can do 2, but in what situations is it going to be better? You 100% HAVE to defend your natural ramp otherwise he can bunker you in, expand, and win. So if you're defending your ramp and making a hatchery, why wouldn't you put it at the natural? For 3 you can't support 2 hatcheries + 2 queens full zergling for a little while, if you make a 3rd hatch that time is even further out. You can ling all-in, but if he's walled off with rax you're not likely to get through (at best you contain him). | ||
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