[Spoiler] Ret's quote - Page 4

On December 07 2010 23:32 Leviwtf wrote:
I think the SCV+marine all in is definitely defendable, so many people are forgetting the BitbyBitPrime vs Fruitdealer games.

On December 08 2010 00:54 Thrombozyt wrote:
Give drones the ability to morph into a creep tumor off creep (without the ability to spawn extra tumors). Suddenly you can place spines earlier in useful positions and deny ramp blocking bunkers. Problem solved.

At the same time increase hatch cost/time and decrease pool cost. 14 hatch shouldn't be the safest and economically most focused build at the same time.

On December 08 2010 01:03 Markwerf wrote:
always nice to have people give completely retarded suggestions...

On December 07 2010 18:03 aebriol wrote:
I just don't believe this to be true.

Another post has shown that 11 overpool is better for economy than any other build. It would also get you spinecrawler earlier - which can be moved afterwards.

Personally I think that 14 gas, 14 pool, speedling into baneling (bust if bustable - and that hits right before hellions can be out with 2 rax opening, and beats marines off 2 rax) is the correct counter to this non-stimmed, non-upgraded, marinepush with SCV's.

One thing is if you don't know it's coming (the push) - then it's almost an all-in gamble (even though you can recover, well, you can't really unless you do serious damage with it), but in the final match, everyone knew it was coming, including, I am sure, the players.

On December 07 2010 18:26 Azzur wrote:

Ok, this post gives a lot of clarity to Ret's quote. So, if people say "go pool first to counter 2-rax all-in", then they are completely wrong? Ret is not saying that pool first is not viable; rather, if your intention is to counter the 2-rax, then it is better to hatch first. In JulyZerg's case, if Ret and Idra's experiment is correct, his pool first opening is inferior to hatch first against a 2-rax opening. However, JulyZerg's probably uses his opening because it suits his style better.

I thus want to focus on the 2nd part of Ret's statement:

I feel the next phase of the TvZ matchup map explore this. Is it viable for the zerg to play safe blindly (e.g. pop down spines, make lings)? Would this set them back too much? Or would this result in an equal footing in the mid and lategame?

On December 07 2010 20:19 Dente wrote:
I want to hear a sollution from idra and ret. Marine nerf? Spinecrawler buff? I really don't know what blizzard can do about this. Make queen avaible without pool (= extra larvae early)?

On December 08 2010 03:19 ltortoise wrote:
This thread confuses me.

I thought we already have a thread detailing that 11 pool, 18 hatch has superior larvae production to 15 hatch, 14 pool? Or is that thread a lie?

On December 08 2010 03:37 MorsCerta wrote:
Spine crawler build time would be the only thing that wouldn't entirely change the race. And the build time makes no sense to me anyway. Spine crawlers take 50 seconds to complete, photon cannons take 40 and they shoot up and down, bunkers take 35, spore crawlers 30, missile turrets 25. I think the build time on spine crawlers should get 5 or 10 seconds shaved off. They take way to fucking long to build.

And the root time is an hour.

On December 08 2010 03:37 MorsCerta wrote:

11pool/18hatch is becoming the new 7 roach rush. Everyone is spreading it everywhere claiming it is this amazing new build when in reality it is quite behind compared to 14hatch. You have larvae down time with 11pool, no creep at your natural, less drones and minerals, and you make it very easy for terran to stop your expansion. You do not get more larvae production.

11overpool is fine versus protoss and zerg but it doesnt have a place versus terrans (at least good ones.)

And if you are referring to the graph proving 11pool/18hatch has superior production, he is comparing it to 13 pool/15 hatch.

On December 08 2010 03:48 TLOBrian wrote:
Hatch first SHOULD die to early attacks. IMO, in the state that the Zerg is being played with the early pool openings into heavy eco, Hatch first (in my eyes) is nothing more than economic cheese that isn't very effective.

Early pool (10-12) with an expo (16-18) is ALWAYS going to be more flexible AND economic than a hatch first build because of the early queen, production capacity, ability to rush, eco, or tech at a moments notice. You're not locked into "Shit I made a hatch first build, I have to lay down 4 spine crawlers as soon as its done to survive."

What happens if they delay your hatch anyways?

Hasn't it been a more recent practice to build an engineering bay ASAP on the zerg expansion to block it? What then? You delay your hatch and pool. It then becomes a like 15-16 pool first build, which is drastically inferior to 11-12 pool builds.

You decide. Are the pros always right in everything?

I seriously doubt they've tried 11 pool 18 hatching AT ALL.

You decide. Are the pros always right in everything?

I seriously doubt they've tried 11 pool 18 hatching AT ALL.

On December 08 2010 04:05 fleeze wrote:
this thread is full of wrong assumptions like the 11pool 18 hatch thread.
the 11 pool/18 hatch is bullshit against any early aggression. PERIOD.
- you are BEHIND until your first spawn larvae comes
- you are even more BEHIND if you don't spend those larvae on drones
- you probably won't hold the 18 hatch!
- you have no creep at the ramp
- you have fewer larvae at key timings
stop spreading this false rumor that the build is any good against early pushes.


i strongly believe that the pros have figured out any possible opening and that nestea as an example has practiced against the 2 rax push very often. yet he came to the conclussion 14 hatch is superior. don't you think these players actually KNOW what they are talking about AND can back it up with their intense training of the matchup? you on the other hand.... relying on a dumb thread full of false informations with questionable measurements for rating builds...