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Leviwtf
174 Posts
Remember what I always hear, "Zerg always wants to be 1 base ahead", well at the start of the game both are on 1 base, so of course the zerg wants to expand to be 1 base ahead. I think the SCV+marine all in is definitely defendable, so many people are forgetting the BitbyBitPrime vs Fruitdealer games. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 07 2010 23:32 Leviwtf wrote: I think the SCV+marine all in is definitely defendable, so many people are forgetting the BitbyBitPrime vs Fruitdealer games. BitbyBit botched every single rush in one way or another. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
At the same time increase hatch cost/time and decrease pool cost. 14 hatch shouldn't be the safest and economically most focused build at the same time. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:54 Thrombozyt wrote: Give drones the ability to morph into a creep tumor off creep (without the ability to spawn extra tumors). Suddenly you can place spines earlier in useful positions and deny ramp blocking bunkers. Problem solved. At the same time increase hatch cost/time and decrease pool cost. 14 hatch shouldn't be the safest and economically most focused build at the same time. always nice to have people give completely retarded suggestions... drone being able to morph into a creep tumor off creep?? Z would be able to block command center / nexus all the time then and it would take detection for P/T to deal with it. Also massive spine defense into using spines offensively would be WAY too easy then... If you post a suggestion by completely changing the game at least think it through a bit.. | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:03 Markwerf wrote: always nice to have people give completely retarded suggestions... Here's mine: Remove the Spawning Pool restriction to build Queen, allowing some openings such as Queen>Pool or Queen>Hatch. The fact that ZvT games are decided in 4minutes show that the early game options are broken, not the metagame. They need to help zerg's early game, and early game only. This change is exactly that: it won't change mid-late game in any way while giving Zerg a chance to actually get there. It's not like people are going to Queen cheese, and the early larvas are a requirement not a bonus. Zerg is pigeon-holed in "FE or die". Allowing faster queens wouldn't change much to this, but it would make it go more smoothly. Alternatively, they could give the queen's ground attack a longer range and bonus dmg vs light. But that would be a lazy band-aid change IMO. | ||
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
Mules are most powerful right after the OC is built, that is when the mule powers the greatest percentage of their economy, and it allows them to use workers in combat with the least detriment of all the races. This stuff starts happening is right at the beginning of the game right when the orbital is strongest. What is the fix for this? I don't know but I wish mule would just be gone or something because it is screwing up the delicate economy balance in this game. Maybe mule could have a different building requirement or a longer build time so that terrans would have a tougher decision on whether or not to get it immediately or wait for some time. | ||
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KiaL.Kiwi
Germany210 Posts
Speedling first may be the traditional "safe" build, but it suffers from a severe lack of larva against the gods of war that are marines early on. The beauty of 2 Rax Marine ist the uncertainty about what and when the followup attack will come since it can basically be anytime the T feels confident. There's no dedicated timing that you could react to - and producing drones/lings at the same time (the thing you'd need to do) just throws you farther behind. I'm not even sure if I'd agree on the notion that the first wave is harder to hold with a 14 Hatch (beside plain silly maps like SoW or DQ close spawns), but I'm absolutly confident that it's extremly much harder to fight of the following waves using only one base. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
I thought we already have a thread detailing that 11 pool, 18 hatch has superior larvae production to 15 hatch, 14 pool? Or is that thread a lie? | ||
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lkjewq
United States132 Posts
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MorsCerta
United States234 Posts
On December 07 2010 18:03 aebriol wrote: I just don't believe this to be true. Another post has shown that 11 overpool is better for economy than any other build. It would also get you spinecrawler earlier - which can be moved afterwards. Personally I think that 14 gas, 14 pool, speedling into baneling (bust if bustable - and that hits right before hellions can be out with 2 rax opening, and beats marines off 2 rax) is the correct counter to this non-stimmed, non-upgraded, marinepush with SCV's. One thing is if you don't know it's coming (the push) - then it's almost an all-in gamble (even though you can recover, well, you can't really unless you do serious damage with it), but in the final match, everyone knew it was coming, including, I am sure, the players. Bolded is false. It's not even the most economic pool first build. Simply the earliest pool you can get that wont absolutely destroy your economy. Gas first vs terran? On December 07 2010 18:26 Azzur wrote: Ok, this post gives a lot of clarity to Ret's quote. So, if people say "go pool first to counter 2-rax all-in", then they are completely wrong? Ret is not saying that pool first is not viable; rather, if your intention is to counter the 2-rax, then it is better to hatch first. In JulyZerg's case, if Ret and Idra's experiment is correct, his pool first opening is inferior to hatch first against a 2-rax opening. However, JulyZerg's probably uses his opening because it suits his style better. I thus want to focus on the 2nd part of Ret's statement: I feel the next phase of the TvZ matchup map explore this. Is it viable for the zerg to play safe blindly (e.g. pop down spines, make lings)? Would this set them back too much? Or would this result in an equal footing in the mid and lategame? Do it in a game. Zerg would fall very far behind in worker count with no expo and the next pressure wave will be able to destroy you. Because terran and protoss can produce both workers AND an army at the same time in rounds, they have an advantage early game where zerg really has to just drone hard to keep up in worker count until a certain point where zerg leap frogs them. So the earlier you put pressure on a zerg, as long as you keep making workers you will get a commanding economic lead over them. Then the zerg holds off your attack and you are ahead 24 to 14 workers, the zerg still can not drone up because your standing army will still be much larger than his unless he continues to use his larvae on an army, and if he uses his larvae on an army, then he loses because your economy is so much better than his. This is why the basic principle of zerg is do not make an army until you have to. On December 07 2010 20:19 Dente wrote: I want to hear a sollution from idra and ret. Marine nerf? Spinecrawler buff? I really don't know what blizzard can do about this. Make queen avaible without pool (= extra larvae early)? Spine crawler build time would be the only thing that wouldn't entirely change the race. And the build time makes no sense to me anyway. Spine crawlers take 50 seconds to complete, photon cannons take 40 and they shoot up and down, bunkers take 35, spore crawlers 30, missile turrets 25. I think the build time on spine crawlers should get 5 or 10 seconds shaved off. They take way to fucking long to build. And the root time is an hour. On December 08 2010 03:19 ltortoise wrote: This thread confuses me. I thought we already have a thread detailing that 11 pool, 18 hatch has superior larvae production to 15 hatch, 14 pool? Or is that thread a lie? 11pool/18hatch is becoming the new 7 roach rush. Everyone is spreading it everywhere claiming it is this amazing new build when in reality it is quite behind compared to 14hatch. You have larvae down time with 11pool, no creep at your natural, less drones and minerals, and you make it very easy for terran to stop your expansion. You do not get more larvae production. 11overpool is fine versus protoss and zerg but it doesnt have a place versus terrans (at least good ones.) And if you are referring to the graph proving 11pool/18hatch has superior production, he is comparing it to 13 pool/15 hatch. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
its definitely not unstoppable, but i think the issu comes where u dont know if hes committing or expanding and then u have no idea on how to defend. so thre is an issue. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:37 MorsCerta wrote: Spine crawler build time would be the only thing that wouldn't entirely change the race. And the build time makes no sense to me anyway. Spine crawlers take 50 seconds to complete, photon cannons take 40 and they shoot up and down, bunkers take 35, spore crawlers 30, missile turrets 25. I think the build time on spine crawlers should get 5 or 10 seconds shaved off. They take way to fucking long to build. And the root time is an hour. Spine Crawlers also have short range and low DPS when used to defend against marines. 1 spine crawler does roughly 18 dps, or the equivalent of 1 1/2 marines. For 3x the cost, that's a poor deal. You also have 2 major vulnerabilities in Marine rushes. There's the hatch itself and your ramp toward your main. That means you have to spend 300 minerals in spine crawlers and you'll only ever have 1 of them attacking at any given time, sad to say, but I think buffing spine crawlers would do very little. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:37 MorsCerta wrote: 11pool/18hatch is becoming the new 7 roach rush. Everyone is spreading it everywhere claiming it is this amazing new build when in reality it is quite behind compared to 14hatch. You have larvae down time with 11pool, no creep at your natural, less drones and minerals, and you make it very easy for terran to stop your expansion. You do not get more larvae production. 11overpool is fine versus protoss and zerg but it doesnt have a place versus terrans (at least good ones.) And if you are referring to the graph proving 11pool/18hatch has superior production, he is comparing it to 13 pool/15 hatch. See now I'm even more confused. Maybe you can set me straight. You say you don't get more larvae production... Correct me if I'm wrong but with the 11 pool, 18 hatch build you get a much faster first queen, and therefore a much faster first inject. This implies to me that during a large window of time (from start to before the 15 hatch finishes), the 11 pool should be ahead on larvae due to having the queen out before hand. Again correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems pretty straightforward to me. | ||
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TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
Early pool (10-12) with an expo (16-18) is ALWAYS going to be more flexible AND economic than a hatch first build because of the early queen, production capacity, ability to rush, eco, or tech at a moments notice. You're not locked into "Shit I made a hatch first build, I have to lay down 4 spine crawlers as soon as its done to survive." What happens if they delay your hatch anyways? Hasn't it been a more recent practice to build an engineering bay ASAP on the zerg expansion to block it? What then? You delay your hatch and pool. It then becomes a like 15-16 pool first build, which is drastically inferior to 11-12 pool builds. You decide. Are the pros always right in everything? I seriously doubt they've tried 11 pool 18 hatching AT ALL. | ||
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:48 TLOBrian wrote: Hatch first SHOULD die to early attacks. IMO, in the state that the Zerg is being played with the early pool openings into heavy eco, Hatch first (in my eyes) is nothing more than economic cheese that isn't very effective. Early pool (10-12) with an expo (16-18) is ALWAYS going to be more flexible AND economic than a hatch first build because of the early queen, production capacity, ability to rush, eco, or tech at a moments notice. You're not locked into "Shit I made a hatch first build, I have to lay down 4 spine crawlers as soon as its done to survive." What happens if they delay your hatch anyways? Hasn't it been a more recent practice to build an engineering bay ASAP on the zerg expansion to block it? What then? You delay your hatch and pool. It then becomes a like 15-16 pool first build, which is drastically inferior to 11-12 pool builds. You decide. Are the pros always right in everything? I seriously doubt they've tried 11 pool 18 hatching AT ALL. First of all, I am sure the pros have tried it. Second of all, early pool is NOT more flexible AND economic. It is EITHER flexible OR economic. Really the only way it can be economic is if your opponent applies no pressure and you make nothing but drones and then a hatch. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
the 11 pool/18 hatch is bullshit against any early aggression. PERIOD. - you are BEHIND until your first spawn larvae comes - you are even more BEHIND if you don't spend those larvae on drones - you probably won't hold the 18 hatch! - you have no creep at the ramp - you have fewer larvae at key timings stop spreading this false rumor that the build is any good against early pushes. You decide. Are the pros always right in everything? I seriously doubt they've tried 11 pool 18 hatching AT ALL. i strongly believe that the pros have figured out any possible opening and that nestea as an example has practiced against the 2 rax push very often. yet he came to the conclussion 14 hatch is superior. don't you think these players actually KNOW what they are talking about AND can back it up with their intense training of the matchup? you on the other hand.... relying on a dumb thread full of false informations with questionable measurements for rating builds... | ||
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Jacobs Ladder
United States1705 Posts
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Communism
United States176 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:05 fleeze wrote: this thread is full of wrong assumptions like the 11pool 18 hatch thread. the 11 pool/18 hatch is bullshit against any early aggression. PERIOD. - you are BEHIND until your first spawn larvae comes - you are even more BEHIND if you don't spend those larvae on drones - you probably won't hold the 18 hatch! - you have no creep at the ramp - you have fewer larvae at key timings stop spreading this false rumor that the build is any good against early pushes. i strongly believe that the pros have figured out any possible opening and that nestea as an example has practiced against the 2 rax push very often. yet he came to the conclussion 14 hatch is superior. don't you think these players actually KNOW what they are talking about AND can back it up with their intense training of the matchup? you on the other hand.... relying on a dumb thread full of false informations with questionable measurements for rating builds... Go read (note actually process the text and dont just spew more garbage from your mouth) Jdismoreglass' threads that do EXTENSIVE research on the 11 overpool build at many different key timings, and show that if it is behind a build in larvae count, minerals mined or drone count its only by a marginal amount. All of your points on the overpool build are unsupported and false. If you actually get down to it the timing on a properly executed 11 overpool the expo comes less than a minute later than on a 14 hatch. How can you say that you wont be able to defend the expo, when you can have a spine crawler already built, so that as soon as your expo pops you can go plop it down and you already have your second queen before the expo pops, so you actually have MORE larvae if you execute this propoerly. If you actually read the research of people who have spent countless hours testing this... (or go test it yourself) you will see this. I agree with the fact that I seriously doubt they have tried this build, because up until a few weeks ago basically all builds with a pool before 13 were discarded as all in plays. Im almost certain that when Idra and Ret did their testing, they didnt even test any builds with a pool earlier than 13/14, because of preconceived notions (read. stubborness) that arise from their extensive understanding and mastery of the metagame. | ||
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SlipperySnake
248 Posts
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