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On December 07 2010 19:13 pwadoc wrote:
I play zerg at around 2000 diamond, and I've found that the 11 overpool provides a lot of flexibility in holding off marines pushes/all ins. Just stopping the push is usually enough to win the game, as most terrans haven't thought much past the mass marine stage. The really scary play stems from the followups to marine pressure, taking advantage of the zerg scramble to defend against the marines to prepare a banshee followup or something along those lines. I've been trying out a third in-base hatch for extra larva production to allow me to pump lings and enough drones to keep up, and it works in some games. The idea is really to spend as little gas as possible. If you can fend off the marines with lings/crawlers without suiciding huge number of banelings you can sometimes make it to midgame.
I think following up 2 rax marine pressure improperly by the terran player might be a problem of either the quality of the individual terran player, or of the strategy against zerg being new enough still for many players to simply not have enough experience yet to make the best choice there.
Ret, Idra and the korean players face better terrans though who have studied their opening quite well and so are ahead of our learning curve.
However, since I only off-race as zerg I used to opt for a supposedly very safe build against early rushes and so have used the Overpool almost exclusively.
And from what my own limited experience is worth, I have to agree with Ret's evaluation.
I had no trouble fending off initial waves, but my economy suffered quite a bit. Whenever my opponent took advantage of that, I lost the game.
Switching over to hatch first, fending off early pressure is much harder, but if I manage to do that, then I'm usually well positioned for the mid-game.
Good thing we get to downvote maps on ladder - when I saw GSL 3 disallowing that, I already expected a worse result for the zerg race even though they were the most numerous race to qualify.
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On December 07 2010 19:34 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
Sometimes solutions take months or even years to find.
How long did it take for hundreds of BW protoss progamers and skilled amateurs in korea to find out that the bisu build is quite effective vs zerg ?
Give it some time and don't give up
the ever present, very bad argument, posted by hundrerds of people.
Yes it took many years, years in which the progaming scene was in its early days and there weren't 400 progamers and semi pros who were constantly playing, on scene almost on daily bases for tens of thousands of dollars, but some pros (for whom BW was the first rts)playing once or twice a week live on different maps, no VODs and barely any forums, and low prices. Then it took more time. in sc2 it's 100X faster because of all the forums, VODs, tones of released reps, rts veterans, teamhouses and whatnot + SC2 being less complicated in a way.
So NO, waiting a couple years and seeing how it turns out then is not an option. If something does not get solved in a couple of months chances are it wont ever be,
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I know everyone will probably ignore this but
Zergs can afford to come out slightly behind due to how their production works..
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On December 07 2010 16:52 Jotoco wrote:
idra agrees completely.
Even saying he (and Ret) spent a whole week (that's 100hours of play) trying to counter marine scv all ins and hatch first turned out on top.
That 14 hours a day every day for a week, I doubt they spent that much time on it
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dont know why you guys are calling ret a whiner hes just stating that hatch first is better than pool first against 2 rax pressure. just to clear up noob confusion.
also, steppes of war is so freaking imbalanced its stupid. i dont know how in the fuck people stand for it in a tournament like this for thousands of dollars.
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I want to hear a sollution from idra and ret. Marine nerf? Spinecrawler buff? I really don't know what blizzard can do about this. Make queen avaible without pool (= extra larvae early)?
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On December 07 2010 17:40 LLuke wrote:
Ret is right - You need the larva really desperately. Once the Zerg finde out how to counter the 2rax build, ie. how many spinecrawlers or lings or queens or whatever the real problem appears.
You can't scout the terran. You have to gamble, because Terran can transition into 4rax as easily as into CC.
I honestly don't know how the zerg will correctly react to that.
the good terrans such as marineking transition into cc AND 2 more raxxes for a 2barracks 2reactorbarracks stim/combat shield push
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On December 07 2010 20:13 charlie420247 wrote:
dont know why you guys are calling ret a whiner hes just stating that hatch first is better than pool first against 2 rax pressure. just to clear up noob confusion.
also, steppes of war is so freaking imbalanced its stupid. i dont know how in the fuck people stand for it in a tournament like this for thousands of dollars.
Because he says that it is the only solution against Terran all-in. If that is true, than the match up is broken. Nestea loses 3 out of 3 rushes AND Rain DIDNT bring scv's.
Now my question (and many others) is simply: "Why no inbase hatchery".
I tested it. It works. On small maps. No auto-loss.
But boohoo if you are on a small disadvantage (read my previous post). Cross positions on a big 4player map is favorable for zerg.
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On December 07 2010 20:19 Dente wrote:
I want to hear a sollution from idra and ret. Marine nerf? Spinecrawler buff? I really don't know what blizzard can do about this. Make queen avaible without pool (= extra larvae early)?
MAP.
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On December 07 2010 20:24 sicajung wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 20:19 Dente wrote:
I want to hear a sollution from idra and ret. Marine nerf? Spinecrawler buff? I really don't know what blizzard can do about this. Make queen avaible without pool (= extra larvae early)? MAP.
like scrap station ???
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Speaking about Ret's quotes, there is another one, not relevant to early but to late game
On December 06 2010 21:38 Liquid`Ret wrote:
at the same time, zerg late game when going untouched seems OP on the other end (vs terran at least), and it seems incredibly hard to fix both these things lol
The problem of TvZ isn't only about Zerg's hard early game but about their too strong late game aswell, even Ret admits it.
So remember that when posting things like "nerf marines!".
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I haven't been able to try it because finals, but has anyone tried like 13 pool, 14 hatch or 15 pool, 14 hatch with no gas against the all ins? I feel like on the maps with smaller openings to naturals, with those builds, spines will stop it easily and on the wider open natural maps, a spine or two with a bunch of lings, which you'll have larva for with the quicker 2nd hatch due to no gas, will hold it off. Also since pool is first, you will have lings to hold off initial marine pressure giving your hatch/spines time to finish. I mean sure spines are expensive, but they're so strong against marines that I feel they're the only answer.
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As I said before, it seems like the game a little bit broken with races having massive power switches in different parts of the game, due to be balanced for small maps.
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i'm actually diamond 2400 and when going speed before expansion i'm totally safe.. july must know what he is doing, he looked very safe and confident in all his games..
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On December 07 2010 18:53 ZpuX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 18:33 Samhax wrote:On December 07 2010 18:29 Azzur wrote:On December 07 2010 18:22 Erectum wrote:
Someone as tried 11 pool against 2 rax pressure ? At high level i mean. Idra and Ret did spend quite a bit of time investigating all the responses to the 2-rax all-in and found that hatch first came up on top. I would guess the korean zergs have done the same thing and maybe this is why all of them seem to want to hatch first. I don't think so, koreans go hatch first without a spine crawler and they defend with drones and zerglings but Ret and Idra put a spine on the expansion and delay the queen. For them it's the safest build against 2 rax. So it isn't that obvious. I really think Koreans are greedy because hatch first give you a huge lead in the mid game because of the extra larva, that's why the terrans don't let them untouched and pressure/all-in. The question is not how you follow up 14hatch, but rather if 14hatch is superior to any pool first/1 base builds... As I said in another thread, the pros are not perfect in any way. But when you combine the knowledge and skill of nestea, fruitdealer, idra, ret, haypro and their terran practice partners I am sure they would come up with more competent builds than the average tl.net user...
If you can micro perfectly and fend off all early agressions from a 2 rax opener every single game then there is no debate 14 hatch is the way to go, but the game with Nestea prove that one miss micro and you are done. So i don't know what progamers think about that. Do they want to take the risk to lose games like that?
For me, it's way easier to defend a 2 rax opener (without all in scv) with pool first and it doesn't require perfect micro, when speedling is done, i feel safe because i have the control map and i can react in time to what my opponent is doing.
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they might be exaggerating (considering they all play Z we can be sure they are alteast partialy biased), like it was with mech IMBA, unstoppable etc and few days later somebody bumps old thread about "magic box" and suddenly mutas rape thors.
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On December 07 2010 22:49 Samhax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 18:53 ZpuX wrote:On December 07 2010 18:33 Samhax wrote:On December 07 2010 18:29 Azzur wrote:On December 07 2010 18:22 Erectum wrote:
Someone as tried 11 pool against 2 rax pressure ? At high level i mean. Idra and Ret did spend quite a bit of time investigating all the responses to the 2-rax all-in and found that hatch first came up on top. I would guess the korean zergs have done the same thing and maybe this is why all of them seem to want to hatch first. I don't think so, koreans go hatch first without a spine crawler and they defend with drones and zerglings but Ret and Idra put a spine on the expansion and delay the queen. For them it's the safest build against 2 rax. So it isn't that obvious. I really think Koreans are greedy because hatch first give you a huge lead in the mid game because of the extra larva, that's why the terrans don't let them untouched and pressure/all-in. The question is not how you follow up 14hatch, but rather if 14hatch is superior to any pool first/1 base builds... As I said in another thread, the pros are not perfect in any way. But when you combine the knowledge and skill of nestea, fruitdealer, idra, ret, haypro and their terran practice partners I am sure they would come up with more competent builds than the average tl.net user... If you can micro perfectly and fend off all early agressions from a 2 rax opener every single game then there is no debate 14 hatch is the way to go, but the game with Nestea prove that one miss micro and you are done. So i don't know what progamers think about that. Did they want to take the risk to lose games like that? For me, it's way easier to defend a 2 rax opener (without all in scv) with pool first and it didn't require perfect micro, when speedling is done, i feel safe because i have the control map and i can react in time to what my opponent is doing.
The way NesTea lost set 5 was just embarrassing - all he had to do was send ~5-6 drones when the spine was at like 30% health and he easily would've taken down the bunker, saved the hatch, and gone on to the macro game.
Personally, I find the micro at my level (~2.1k diamond) is not that good, and I find the bunker rushes generally pretty easy to hold off. The thing we have to remember though, is the pros playing in the GSL have INSANE micro (ahem, MarineKing), and that makes this rush way more dangerous than us 2k diamond scrubs truly realize.
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I personally prefer 15 pool, 17 or 18 hatch, spine crawler at 19 in main as soon as pool finishes, moving it down to the expansion as soon as it finishes. I would have to look up the exact timings but its quite good against cheese imo.
like:
15 pool
18 hatch
17 ovi
17 gas
16 queen
18 lings
19 crawler
and if you scout cheese you could even start the crawler before queen.
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On December 07 2010 19:46 lim1017 wrote:
I know everyone will probably ignore this but
Zergs can afford to come out slightly behind due to how their production works..
if you're behind, you're behind. That's all there is to it. It doesn't matter how production works if there's no economy. or in the case of 1 hatch, not enough production capability.
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Lots of these zerg problems with all-ins are just map issue's imo.
I think the next 2 maps to be cut from the pool will be steppes and blistering sands (1 too small the other too big of a backdoor) and will be replaced with something more closely to xel naga (the best map imo).
The entire problem imo with allins vs zerg atm is that the response time at some maps between your natural and the terran base is too short, at maps like xel naga etc. you can produce 1 set of lings of lings and a few spines when you scout T moving out. At steppes and close position meta/LT you can't do this if you defend your expo. That makes the maps too hard for Z.
As it is ZvT is too map dependant imo, large distances favor Z too much (like idra sais meta is 2/3rd free win and 1/3rd free loss) and short distances favor T too much.
The solution imo is simply to nerf Z very slightly in the lategame vs T (for example very slight baneling nerf or very small tank buff) and simply remove the ultra short positions from the map pool. For example i'd REALLY like steppes (and blistering sands) to be removed and meta + LT be changed to the shakuras spawn system, ie. you can't spawn close.
Also I think i agree with ret that hatch first is actually the superior way to beat 2 rax then 14 pool is. It gives you that extra larvae from the hatch gradually instead of the full first inject in 1 go and more importantly lets the creep spread start faster which makes it much easier to micro well AND keep bunkers at bay.
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EPT
