EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 128
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Trinric
United States14 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 13 2011 10:06 Trinric wrote: I had a pretty simple question about ZvZ. I always tend to 14 gas / 14 pool into expand after making a few lings. If I scout no expansion around 4 minutes, and assume a baneling all in, how do I respond to be very likely to hold it? I don't think I could get a second queen out in time. Do I get a roach warren or my own baneling nest? You should have a baneling nest on the way. If you did a roach warren you would get it way to late and die. But your banelings will be late vs a 14/14 1 base baneling if you 14/14/21 then baneling which takes good micro to hold. | ||
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SC2Ditto
United States16 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On December 13 2011 10:06 Trinric wrote: I had a pretty simple question about ZvZ. I always tend to 14 gas / 14 pool into expand after making a few lings. If I scout no expansion around 4 minutes, and assume a baneling all in, how do I respond to be very likely to hold it? I don't think I could get a second queen out in time. Do I get a roach warren or my own baneling nest? Your Baneling Nest should be 1/3 done when his finishes. Once you hit 14 drones, the only thing you build are Zerglings. The trick is: you have to "hug" his army, his group of lings should always be in the sight of yours. Engage when you have higher numbers and disengage but still be close when he has the number advantage. Because building Banelings will temporarily hurt his Zergling numbers, it allows you to attack his army+kill the morphing Banelings. While he will be able to morph his Banelings near his base, their slow speed will allow your Baneling Nest to finish in time to morph defensive Banelings. You have to be wary of hidden morphing Banelings. When you feel that he should have more zerglings (that comes with experience), send 1 or 2 lings to check for places where he could hide them. Your overlord spread should focus on scouting these potential hidden banelings. At least this is the way I do it, but I warn you, "hugging" his army is extremely difficult and requires a lot of practice. | ||
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Munchkin
Finland99 Posts
My opponents seem to never expand or scout me. They just execute a build... put their effort in to preventing me from scouting it and go for the all in push. Doesnt seem to matter wether I 14p14g / 15h / 16p 15h .... The same builds kick my butt. I scout 3 gate robo.. After that.. it can turn in to a Warp prism allin = spines are worthless. 1 base colossus = lings are worthless 1 base Immortal = lings are a must 3 gate robo expand Halp! :C (edit.. I realise this is more ranting then asking for help.. sorry for that..) | ||
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Hitcher
Belgium23 Posts
So basicly my question is what do you usually do against an FFE into Robo Tech 2/3 colossi timing? | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:24 Hitcher wrote: My PvZ is at an all-time low. After having previously obtaining a really solid win ratio versus most builds, since the recent patch (Immortal buff/Fungal nerf) I -cannot- win versus a protoss that does a FFE. I get a quick 3rd and saturate it, but once it's saturated he attacks, I'd have equal supply and 4/5 corrupters, a lot of roaches and some speedlings versus a colossi/immortal/stalker/sentry army. He'd have 1/1 and I'd have 1/1 on my roaches and 1/0 on my corrupters. Basicly, he forcefields half of my army which I cannot prevent happening even if I juke ff's, it dies, I try to resupply but his army just OBLITERATES mine in a disgusting manner. So basicly my question is what do you usually do against an FFE into Robo Tech 2/3 colossi timing? If you scout robo tech you should always go for a spire. There are three different types of robo plays that are dangerous to you, immortal gateway attacks ( easiest to deal with, roaches and mass zergling with +1 carapace will deal with them ), 1 robo collosus play and 2 robo collosus play. On all three accords you need a spire, in the latter case you need it really fast because he will be relying on a really fast 3 or 4 collosus push. What you do is get a quick third up and hold any immortal push that is coming for you with Roaches and mass zerglings from 3 constantly injected hatcheries ( thats why I like getting a macro hatchery in my base ) so you can collect up gas for a Muta tech switch. If you hold his push handily and transition into Roach/Ling/Muta you can harass him super hard and make his third very hard to hold. If he goes for a 1 robo collosus build you can do the same thing except you build a couple of corruptors before he pushes. Move the corruptors in before your army and corrupt+focusfire the collosi down one by one. It doesn't matter if you lose all your corruptors ( you should have around 6 or 7 ) as long as you trade it with a collosus or two, flanks and mass Roach/ling spam will deal with the rest of his army so you can transition into Roach/ling/muta again. If he goes for a 2 robo collosus build on 2 base from an FFE you just immediately put down a spire and produce mass corruptor. All his resources will be devoted to making that push happen so you just need to completely bearmaul the collosus numbers so you can kill off the rest of the push with reinforcements. Don't engage with the ground army until a significant portion of the collosi are down, or you'll still lose the game. If you let him go for a free third on robo play, you really should think about going for Mutalisks to constanly harass him while taking a fourth. Hell, you will have a hard time against anything 3 base protoss, so you should ALWAYS have contested it in one way or another unless you know his unit composition will be shit for a couple of minutes anyway. | ||
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DarkBaneling
United States13 Posts
Recently I've been watching replays from Leenock's MLG run. He binds all hatcheries in 4, individual hatcheries in 5+ and doesn't bind queens at all. I've also seen some other koreans with similar setups Does he backspace (rebound I would assume) through all his bases and box over queen to inject? Also, what is the advantage of having all of his bases in their own control group? I've heard conflicting opinions. Some say it's simply old BW habits, some say they do it to be able to check individual inject timers or select exactly which base they want specific units to come out of. Any insight? | ||
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Purpley
16 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:40 DarkBaneling wrote: I've been looking for a good Zerg hotkey setup and have a few questions about the korean style of injecting. Recently I've been watching replays from Leenock's MLG run. He binds all hatcheries in 4, individual hatcheries in 5+ and doesn't bind queens at all. I've also seen some other koreans with similar setups Does he backspace (rebound I would assume) through all his bases and box over queen to inject? Also, what is the advantage of having all of his bases in their own control group? I've heard conflicting opinions. Some say it's simply old BW habits, some say they do it to be able to check individual inject timers or select exactly which base they want specific units to come out of. Any insight? I pretty sure he would screen cap them, where you just bind a certain spot on the map, and then press F2 through what ever to go to that spot. Though he may not ive just seen that quite alot. Also alot of people besides the fact that that is how it was in BW do it for the control, when your getting contained and all the hatches are on one hotkey you can lose some running to bad rallies and what not. Just to have more control over what there doing I suppose. | ||
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Hitcher
Belgium23 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:40 Chaosvuistje wrote: If you scout robo tech you should always go for a spire. There are three different types of robo plays that are dangerous to you, immortal gateway attacks ( easiest to deal with, roaches and mass zergling with +1 carapace will deal with them ), 1 robo collosus play and 2 robo collosus play. On all three accords you need a spire, in the latter case you need it really fast because he will be relying on a really fast 3 or 4 collosus push. What you do is get a quick third up and hold any immortal push that is coming for you with Roaches and mass zerglings from 3 constantly injected hatcheries ( thats why I like getting a macro hatchery in my base ) so you can collect up gas for a Muta tech switch. If you hold his push handily and transition into Roach/Ling/Muta you can harass him super hard and make his third very hard to hold. If he goes for a 1 robo collosus build you can do the same thing except you build a couple of corruptors before he pushes. Move the corruptors in before your army and corrupt+focusfire the collosi down one by one. It doesn't matter if you lose all your corruptors ( you should have around 6 or 7 ) as long as you trade it with a collosus or two, flanks and mass Roach/ling spam will deal with the rest of his army so you can transition into Roach/ling/muta again. If he goes for a 2 robo collosus build on 2 base from an FFE you just immediately put down a spire and produce mass corruptor. All his resources will be devoted to making that push happen so you just need to completely bearmaul the collosus numbers so you can kill off the rest of the push with reinforcements. Don't engage with the ground army until a significant portion of the collosi are down, or you'll still lose the game. If you let him go for a free third on robo play, you really should think about going for Mutalisks to constanly harass him while taking a fourth. Hell, you will have a hard time against anything 3 base protoss, so you should ALWAYS have contested it in one way or another unless you know his unit composition will be shit for a couple of minutes anyway. So I tried this, what happened was I cleaned up all his Colossi (3) but he had a lot of stalkers/sentries/immortals backing it up and due to the amount of gas/minerals that corrupters cost, I had no ground army that could defeat a 2/0 Protoss army with decent controll. It's important to note that I was 20 supply up, 13 drones up and I had 3 mining bases (fully saturated) + 1 macro hatch. My larvae injects are spot on. | ||
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raybasto
United States151 Posts
Quick EDIT: Is is Roach/Hydra/Corruptor standard ZvP again? I've been seeing alot of this on stream. Why did people go back to this style when a few months back, this style did not work? What changed? Been liking the Roach/Ling/Muta style but no one does it on stream Also, I see alot of people going fast 3 base against Terran now a days. What's the best way to defend the 2 base attacks, Ling/Bane with +1 Melee and extra Queens? Thanks | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On December 14 2011 10:23 raybasto wrote: What's the best way to stop this new 1 base Warp Prism rush into 1 Base Immortal/Stalker/Zealot with Warp ins with the Prism? I keep hitting this on the ladder. I go 2 Base Roach/Ling with fast +1 Carapace and I just can't seem to stop it. Any tips? Quick EDIT: Is is Roach/Hydra/Corruptor standard ZvP again? I've been seeing alot of this on stream. Why did people go back to this style when a few months back, this style did not work? What changed? Been liking the Roach/Ling/Muta style but no one does it on stream Also, I see alot of people going fast 3 base against Terran now a days. What's the best way to defend the 2 base attacks, Ling/Bane with +1 Melee and extra Queens? Thanks All this is very new, so there is probably no 100% guaranteed solution right now. Yet, for the one base warp prism / immmortal push, the way to go seems to be mass lings. Some did with success (me included), as mentioned in the following threads : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294151 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290798 To do that you need 1 macro hatch; you can add some spines if you have too much minerals. They won't be very useful especially against immortals but hey! if you have too much minerals, you'd better use them in a way or another. I am not so sure about roaches, as they will die badly to immortals... rather, with your gas, I would recommend teching to hydras (I stay on one extractor, and go for hydra tech, so that hydras get into play while the push is going on). When you engage, you may want to do some fake engagement first so that protoss wastes forcefields and delay the push... also you can try to runby in his main, just in case he forgot to put a pylon to block his choke, just don't get trapped on the ramp! (but this is only details). I am not so sure Roach hydras has come back! but maybe if you say so... one reason for it to come back is the nerf of the infestor, which forced people to find other ways to play... But roach ling mutas seems actually much more popular in the last few weeks at least. For your last question about defending two base terran, I am not sure, I guess it all depends of the timing of the two base push. Are you talking about bio or mech? about the 10 min push or something else? | ||
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FlilFlam
Canada109 Posts
I'm currently in the midst of breaking down each race mathematically in terms of production rates (among other various economic calculations) with the goal of understand efficient saturation rates relative to constant production of specifc units from specific buildings for terran and protoss, and relative to the larva production rates for zerg. The Terran calculations basically are done by determining how much it costs to keep producing specific units out of a single structure. Example: a barracks constantly producing marines will produce 2.4 units per minute, and cost 120 minerals per minute. Using mineral mining rates I know that this cost equates to the income provided by 2.9 SCV's per minute. Factoring in the cost of supplies, you actually need 3.6 Mineral mining scv's per minute (given the mining rates with less than 3 miners per patch). With Protoss it's roughly the same, and I have even done extensive calculations to account for approximate effects of chrono boost. Zerg however works entirely different and I'm having trouble finding the simplest way to break down the actual economic calculations. I have charted the larva production rates in relation to numbers of queens and numbers of hatcheries and that at least is very simple. One approach I have taken with this is to look at the mineral and gas cost ratio of each unit, and then to calculate the required mineral to gas harvester ratio which would equate to the mineral and gas ratio of the desired unit. To explain, roaches cost 75 minerals and 25 gas, which is a ratio of 3 to 1. So to turn larva into roaches without getting too much minerals or gas as time goes on, you want just the right number of miners to be able to afford to turn most or all of your larva into roaches; you want to mine minerals and gas at the same ratio of your unit. So you can understand the depth of these calculations, here is an example of practical application: Assumed mineral rate up to 2 harvesters per patch = 41.7 minerals per minute Assumed mineral income rate of the third harvester on a single patch = 16 minerals per minute Assumed gas income rate at 2 or less drones per geyser = 40.2 gas per minute Assumed gas mining rate at 3 per geyser = 37.8 gas per minute Assumed Larva production rate per minute of one hatchery = 10 larva per minute (given perfect larva inject) *note all the quoted rates are extremely accurate according to my calculations and the work of others and I will provide the sources if requested Since roaches cost 2 supply, if you are accumulating roaches at a constant rate you are going to have to frequently add overlords, which take up larva, which need to be accounted for. If the overlords were things might be easier, but this is a very simple theoretical 1 base roach build. If we have 10 larva per minute to work with we are going to need to build roaches and overlords first and foremost at the right ratio (assuming the supply does not already exist). Luckily this build works out like magic, otherwise calculations become rough. We build 8 roaches per minute, equating to 16 supply, using 8 larva, and we also build 2 overlords per minute, covering the 16 needed supply and using the two remaining larva per minute. The cost of 8 roaches and 2 overlords in terms of minerals is 800 minerals, and in gas it is 200, and so we would need to mine that much per minute. 795 minerals is actually what is mined per minute at 24 mineral miners for a single base (assuming all 8 patches). Given that we are only 4 off and the fact that we need to have an overlord supply in the first place so we can build units we can afford to forgive the 5 mineral per minute imprecision. So we need 24 drones for the price of the roaches and overlords in terms of minerals, and we need 6 gas drones for the 200 gas for the 8 roaches. (37.8 x 6 = 22.6). Sure we get 22.6 extra gas per minute, but who doesn't want 22 extra gas per minute anyway  . And if you want to be really cool you can of course keep pulling a miner out of gas to lose the extra 22.6 gas per minute and cover the missing 5 minerals per minute :p .This is not really a build so much as it is a simple set of calculations of income requirements based on production rates and costs. What this tells us is that if we have a fully saturated base and inject our single queen perfectly, we can produce roaches with extremely excellent efficiency relative to our economy and production capacity. The only inefficiency is that we accumulate extra gas, but this can be spent by in eventual upgrades which is in and of itself not a bad thing. An alternative to this is also to have an expansion and take advantage of an expansion so you can spread your miners out to make more money with the same amount of miners, but it becomes harder to defend so there are trade offs. The practical use of this 'build' is fairly limited given its simplicity and the fact it assumes no roaches die, but it is an example of the sort of depth of calculations I want to be able to do for other general units. While working with only 1 base and only roaches and overlords is very simple, tings become ridiculously complicated when many bases and different sorts of units are involved. Terran production is simple and easy. I can add on and remove harvesters based on what I know of building production rates, and vice versa. Protoss being similar also functions the same way, albeit somewhat complicated through chrono boost. I just find it difficult to really find a practical way to express an accurate sense of cost for zerg units. Question/TLDR In your experience, do you tailor the ratio of gas to mineral miners to your desired composition and not worry about the amount of larva (assuming you will have enough), or do you just spend larva in the best way you can afford at the time regardless of efficiency? Are calculations like this useless outside of painstakingly calculating and refining specific builds in between games? Any opinion or insight into how I can tackle practical calculations related to zerg production would be highly appreciated. | ||
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Canuckelhead
Canada29 Posts
I've been having difficulty stopping this from doing insane amounts of damage. Since I pretty much always open with a 15 hatch in ZvT, I find myself really vulnerable to this sort of thing. On some maps, it's not that bad. On Antiga, Nerzaim Crypt, Abyssal Caverns and even on Shakuras, I can block with an evolution chamber, drop a creep tumor from my Queen at my expo and then get a Spine or two, mostly thwarting this attack while I play a normal 2-base style to Muta or whatever. But on Tal Darim, Metalopolis, Shattered Temple, XNC, etc. 8 or 10 Hellions hitting me before I can finish speed (17 gas, oftentimes I'll try to get it earlier, like 15h, 14g, 14p) can really ruin my day. I've tried blocking my main ramp and trying to quickly tech to Mutas but the smart Terrans mimic ThorZaIN and expand or even double expand behind this pressure and it really really ends up cutting the legs right out from under me. Against this build executed even decently, I have a lot of trouble. Does anyone have any suggestions for how I might deal with this sort of aggression from Terran? Or is "throw down a Roach Warren" really the only response Z has against this kind of early Hellion pressure? | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On December 15 2011 10:29 Canuckelhead wrote: I don't have the repay or a YouTube link for the series (seems to have been pulled from many of the usual sites), but it was the NASL Ro8, the MorroW v. ThorZaIN series. Games 3 and 4 on Metalopolis and Crevasse, if I remember right, ThorZaIN opened with a 2 factory reactor Hellion play. As a mid-high Plat Zerg, I've started running into a few Terrans who have started doing this same build. I scout it out, seeing the early gas with the initial Drone, and then scouting the Factory with a 'ling. I've been having difficulty stopping this from doing insane amounts of damage. Since I pretty much always open with a 15 hatch in ZvT, I find myself really vulnerable to this sort of thing. On some maps, it's not that bad. On Antiga, Nerzaim Crypt, Abyssal Caverns and even on Shakuras, I can block with an evolution chamber, drop a creep tumor from my Queen at my expo and then get a Spine or two, mostly thwarting this attack while I play a normal 2-base style to Muta or whatever. But on Tal Darim, Metalopolis, Shattered Temple, XNC, etc. 8 or 10 Hellions hitting me before I can finish speed (17 gas, oftentimes I'll try to get it earlier, like 15h, 14g, 14p) can really ruin my day. I've tried blocking my main ramp and trying to quickly tech to Mutas but the smart Terrans mimic ThorZaIN and expand or even double expand behind this pressure and it really really ends up cutting the legs right out from under me. Against this build executed even decently, I have a lot of trouble. Does anyone have any suggestions for how I might deal with this sort of aggression from Terran? Or is "throw down a Roach Warren" really the only response Z has against this kind of early Hellion pressure? It's not just from the Thorzain vs Morrow series. The standard for TvZ is either: 1rax CC, 15 CC, 2 rax, or reactor hellions, with the latter of the 4 options being more prevalent. The key to stopping this kind of attack is to make sure your whole natural is covered with 2 spines AT LEAST and by rushing for a fast third queen. This allows you to start spreading creep early and more importantly, block your ramp from run-bys. Behind this, you should be droning very hard and either do Spanishiwa 40 gas or have ling speed started before pool. Having an early ling speed is safer verses this kind of build especially against a greedy Terran just because you can force counter attacks. If you do choose to go "gasless", add extra queens and spines. Ling's speed is not a necessity to stopping reactor hellions, but it can help. Another solution would be to get a roach warren like you talked about, but usually this is only done as a safety measure against mass hellion play. However, I recommend doing this just because roach warrens cost no gas, can be used as a wall, and help you to easily transition into the mid game if the Terran is going mech. Regarding map choices, you obviously want to build several more queens on more open maps like XNC. I veto Tal'darim just because the natural is so hard to defend and because I find that the large map size isn't that helpful to Zerg in the early/mid game as before; T/P have found ways to punish this and early rushes don't work as efficiently. + Show Spoiler + rank 1 masters if it matters | ||
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adacan
United States117 Posts
On December 14 2011 05:35 Hitcher wrote: So I tried this, what happened was I cleaned up all his Colossi (3) but he had a lot of stalkers/sentries/immortals backing it up and due to the amount of gas/minerals that corrupters cost, I had no ground army that could defeat a 2/0 Protoss army with decent controll. It's important to note that I was 20 supply up, 13 drones up and I had 3 mining bases (fully saturated) + 1 macro hatch. My larvae injects are spot on. If you play on a big map against robo builds i feel mutas are the way to go. His army is so immobile compared to yours and you should be able to win base race scenarios if he leaves his base. If he turtles then you can far outexpand him + tech to bls. Even on smaller maps this style seems like the best option although its obv tougher than on bigger maps. The roach corruptor is very hard to pull off imo, too many corruptors and you are dead, too little and you are dead. Also you have to fight near his base or at least not outside of yours, retreat after killing his corruptors and pray you can remax before he gets to your base. | ||
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Canuckelhead
Canada29 Posts
 . Even if I'm able to defend without losing too much, my third is delayed, and so is my tech to baneling/Muta, because I'm investing so heavily into not dying. Meanwhile, the Terran expands, adds in a third OC and transitions into a standard mid-game push with Marine/Tank. It's just a very frustrating style to play against, is all. I'll trawl the interwebs to see if I can find the replay from the games in question. | ||
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Lokerek
United States441 Posts
Recently I keep encountering reactor helion with banshee harass behind. How to deal with banshees. When I set spores they go around and snipe stuff out of spore range and queen dies fast. Usually its 2-3 banshees. - Also later It prevents me from having a third before mutalisks are on which is quite a long time. When should I start mining gas back after 100 gas for speed vs reactor helion expand. I usually go with around 38 supplies. Any actual specific build for that ? ZvP How to deal with zealot stalker pressure so I dont overreact with ling production ? | ||
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Incandenza
United States56 Posts
On December 10 2011 10:06 qwertyindeed wrote: help, terrans are all doing the 4gg build where there is 2-3 banshess and alot of hellions off 1 base, how do i hold? do i have to get roaches? they expo a bit alter with it, but always do drone dmg and follow with 3-4tanks before i can get a 3rd. in diamond league I've been watching ForGG's stream and he's getting shut down pretty effectively now. The zerg's use the evo chamber to wall the front, get extra queens, and if the banshees show up, they throw down a spore. Most aren't on Lair by then, so it's about getting the spore up, even at the cost of the queens. Your eco lead will be substantial, and you can take a 3rd for free because he has zilch that can deny it (banshees are better spent trying to harass). Convert to roaches, and you can stomp the mech push when it comes with numbers. Now, ForGG's build goes into a 4 thor push. Are you seeing this or tanks? If tanks, go ling muta. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On December 15 2011 10:47 Canuckelhead wrote: Oh, I've been up against reactor Hellions previously. This isn't quite the same though. It's the addition of the extra factory that has added the challenge. Against a single Factory, I've been able to defend with Spines, 2 or 3 Queens and my 'lings. But when your opponent is constantly able to rally groups of 10-15 Hellions into you from two factories with 2 reactors, I spend too much time making drones to replace the ones I lose, making drones to replace the ones I turn into Spines and replacing the 'lings that get roasted. The problem doesn't always necessarily come from just the Hellions, either . Even if I'm able to defend without losing too much, my third is delayed, and so is my tech to baneling/Muta, because I'm investing so heavily into not dying. Meanwhile, the Terran expands, adds in a third OC and transitions into a standard mid-game push with Marine/Tank. It's just a very frustrating style to play against, is all. I'll trawl the interwebs to see if I can find the replay from the games in question.This is actually a very difficult style to play against because once they get that critical mass of hellions you're talking about, they can pretty much roast queens that are blocking the ramp with ease. You need to rush mutas to regain map control and just turtle through this stage. Keep pumping queens and block your natural very tightly with 2 evo chambers and a roach warren. The extra queens will help defend if he decides to elevator, and you can spread creep insanely fast which is always a good thing. | ||
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