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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
On December 10 2011 18:34 blade55555 wrote: Like you I hate ling bane wars as well so I started doing this awhile ago: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583) Thats my zvz guide for non ling/baneling play  .Thanks, that looks definately like something I am going to try out | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On December 09 2011 17:21 Macpo wrote: 1. Sorry, but just to make it clear (as I have the same kind of problem): in the case a zerg is spine crawler 6 pool rushing me, should I immediately pull all my drones off of my mineral line to chase them, while sending 2-4 drones on each spine? That sounds kind of counterintuititve to me, as against a six zergling rush with no spine, you should do the contrary, i.e. defend in the mineral line with drone stacking. So precisely, that would mean, supposing that I have 15 drones : - against 1 spine: 12 drones fighting six zerglings; 3 drones attacking the spine; no drone mining, zerglings in production, and possibly a queen. - against 2 spines: maybe something like 10 drones fighting six zerglings, 5 drones attacking two spines (should they attack both spines at the same time, or one after another?), no drone mining, zerglings and queen in production. 2. Doesn't that kill the possibility of any later reinforcement for me, as I will have no income? shouldn't I still leave a couple of drones at my mineral line ? 3. And also, should I make a queen or a spine myself? in the case that I have a drone at my opponent's, is it worth it to make a spine there to get counterplay ? 4. when fighting with drones against zerglings, Do I need a good surround to engage, or is a frontal engagement, with some drone micro (with hold position to lower aggro, or just more classically removing the drone with right click?) enough? 5. If his spines still finish, is it the end, or do I still have a chance to win? how? 6. is there any difference if he sends all his drones in the rush? thanks Nobody wants to answer my questions  ? I am sure many here are competent for these things ... Any 6 pool specialist? | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
I think it's common for most players who like to go for a muta-centric combination of units in the midgame to be spending all your gas, but to be floating a huge amount of minerals. Personally, I find myself often going above 1k in the midgame, and in matchups like ZvP I rarely have issues keeping my money below 400. I've tried making extra macro hatcheries to spend all of it, but I don't really want to max out on lings, since I'm spending all my gas on mutas and upgrades for them. Note that it's even harder when you're attempting to support dual spire upgrades. I've tried a few different things with this extra money. The stock answer to this question is "make more macro hatches to spend the excess minerals," and although it's true that you will have more larva and thus be able to produce more units, I end up maxing out on lings so fast that I don't have room for more mutalisks or infestors or corruptor/brood. I've also tried taking a super fast fourth for the extra two geysers, and while this obviously works in the ideal case, you can't really defend a fourth that fast if you are playing against a good aggressive T player. In addition, if you're the slightest bit behind the T player, the fast fourth option is completely out, since they can force an engagement if you attempt to defend the base. Any thoughts or suggestions? | ||
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cocer
Sweden21 Posts
On December 11 2011 09:25 HyperionDreamer wrote: I've got a question abouts spending midgame minerals as Zerg... I'm mid-master league on the NA server. I think it's common for most players who like to go for a muta-centric combination of units in the midgame to be spending all your gas, but to be floating a huge amount of minerals. Personally, I find myself often going above 1k in the midgame, and in matchups like ZvP I rarely have issues keeping my money below 400. I've tried making extra macro hatcheries to spend all of it, but I don't really want to max out on lings, since I'm spending all my gas on mutas and upgrades for them. Note that it's even harder when you're attempting to support dual spire upgrades. I've tried a few different things with this extra money. The stock answer to this question is "make more macro hatches to spend the excess minerals," and although it's true that you will have more larva and thus be able to produce more units, I end up maxing out on lings so fast that I don't have room for more mutalisks or infestors or corruptor/brood. I've also tried taking a super fast fourth for the extra two geysers, and while this obviously works in the ideal case, you can't really defend a fourth that fast if you are playing against a good aggressive T player. In addition, if you're the slightest bit behind the T player, the fast fourth option is completely out, since they can force an engagement if you attempt to defend the base. Any thoughts or suggestions? Hey! If you feel you need to spend the minerals (i know that many pro players don't) you could always go for spines, ex. 10 spines at 4th base etc. Some people do this as they transition to brood lords for a slow push with spines and infestors on some maps. Just thoughts | ||
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VashTS
United States1675 Posts
I know it differs depending on how many Gases they take and WHEN they actually take them, but I'm just looking for a roung estimate/answer. Thank you! | ||
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listal
United States228 Posts
On December 11 2011 10:14 VashTS wrote: This is a rather silly and basic question, but in ZvP what is the normal timing for VR/Phoenix and DTs to come at me off of a standard FFE? I usually throw up an Evo around 6min after I see FFE, but I just want to know the usual timing to kind of drill it in my head just in case my OLs miss it or they take the scenic route around a Tower. I know it differs depending on how many Gases they take and WHEN they actually take them, but I'm just looking for a roung estimate/answer. Thank you! that's definitely not a silly question against FFE, VR/phoenix will start showing their faces at around the 7:30 minute mark. DTs show their faces around the 8:20 mark. if you weren't able to determine what the protoss player is up to by around 7:30, you should lay 1 spore at each of your bases. edit: are you the same Vash from broodwar? i was G()||y^RiCe- on east, if you are and that rings a bell | ||
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listal
United States228 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:26 Macpo wrote: Nobody wants to answer my questions ? I am sure many here are competent for these things ... Any 6 pool specialist? 1 - defending with drone stacking in your first point is definitely correct. if you pool before gas and see the all-in coming, you should lay 2 spines pre-emptively behind your minerals as well. if it isn't an all-in with drones, all you need to do is a-move every drone and make it out alive. 2 - if you're being all-inned, your priority is to survive. if you do, you automatically win. if it's just 6 lings and a drone to spine, you still come out leagues ahead by using all drones to survive. your income rate should be double, if not more than your opponent's for the minute following the failed rush, so it takes only a minute to catch up. add in a quicker queen, and you're leagues ahead by three minutes after the failed rush. 3 - it's definitely worthwhile to lay 2 spines in the event that you didn't catch drones coming along with the zerglings. also, if he runs around his zerglings and for some reason you weren't able to catch his spine, the two spines will be your saving grace. definitely delay the queen though until after the rush is over in favor of the spines and (possibly necessary) zerglings. 4 - a surround in your mineral line is ideal, but not likely. hitting his zerglings with stacked drones is even better. however, even a front-on fight swings heavily in your favor, so it's not a big deal if you can't catch him in your mineral line. 5 - if you didn't lay 2 spines and his spine finishes, you're in hot water. you're definitely not dead though, since he has to get the spine into position to do anything other than poke at your buildings, since the spine is typically laid at the edge of the creep ahead of the 6 zerglings. you should have enough time to muster up some zerglings and a queen. with that force + your drones, you should be able to easily take care of the zerglings and spine. just make sure your zerglings aren't the focus of the spine, and send your queen in first to soak the hits from the spine. 6 - there definitely is. you need 2 spines behind your mineral line against this, ideally. someone who doesn't hit your drones head-on and diverts you from being able to attack the spine crawler can definitely cause problems, especially if you gassed before pool. i think i address this in points 1 and 2 though. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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listal
United States228 Posts
On December 12 2011 00:31 Erasme wrote: Okay, i find myself utterly lost in zvt. I can't stop marines/tanks push. Not the one at 9/10min, but the one that keep and keep going until they get marines 3/3. While looking for an answer in my replays, i find that the games i lost were usually on shakuras after a 14cc by the terran. So I wanted to know what can I do to punish 14cc ? a common way to try to punish 14cc is to use FXOLucky's roach/ling bust opening. it's basically the same thing people started doing to 3wg expo strats after Losira's run with it. it's pretty effective on shakuras if there isn't a complete wall-off at the natural, since natural-->natural travel on that map is extremely short. it might be worthwhile to zero in on what's going on to cause your trouble in the late game, since you clearly have no problems getting to the late game if 3/3 bio is included in what you're losing to. it sounds like it isn't 14cc that causes you pain. | ||
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VashTS
United States1675 Posts
On December 11 2011 23:52 listal wrote: that's definitely not a silly question against FFE, VR/phoenix will start showing their faces at around the 7:30 minute mark. DTs show their faces around the 8:20 mark. if you weren't able to determine what the protoss player is up to by around 7:30, you should lay 1 spore at each of your bases. edit: are you the same Vash from broodwar? i was G()||y^RiCe- on east, if you are and that rings a bell About 7:30 eh? I need to remember that... Thanks! Also, sadly no, that is not me. =( I was playing CnC Gold and/or Tiberian Sun at the time.. with this nick, too. inb4uroldandplaypokemonlol | ||
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Nasradime
France83 Posts
Anyone ? (For the record, I can win or at least have a very decent "macro game" against masters, and can hold off the 6pool+drones; but then I'll lose to this stupid all-in against platinums 3 times out of 4. If he sucks, thinks he's done enough damage and stop the attack to drone again, I'll just all in myself and kill him, but that's about it.) I really want to have a solution for the hatch first, because it's easy as hell to defend with pool first, but I want to get the economical lead when I scout a not so early pool first. NB : I know there are some topics about it, and each gives 5 different advices, that's why I ask for "the ultimate solution every good zerg agrees with", if it exists, please. Going through hours of reading and trying one different solution at a time is kind of a hassle I'll admit, at least way more than the few lines I ask for  | ||
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Adoness
7 Posts
I've been looking around and the only advice I found is scout it and then when they're not sieged up hit, but usually when I do that he just sieges one tank and unsieges one in the back and slowly moves forward making my mutalisks pretty much useless since all the marines are there defending them. My question is, what do I do against mass marine/tank slowly moving up to my base. and I uploaded a replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?nylm7o5bwy9nu1e NOTE: I do know my macro isn't the best and that I should improve on that but yeah thats not the main problem here (I think, I'm only a gold level zerg so if you think otherwise please tell me) | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On December 12 2011 07:56 Adoness wrote: Recently I've switched to Zerg (from Protoss, mid/top gold now) and now I've been pretty much dominating ZvZ with 14 gas 14 pool and then hatch at like 18. but the problem is terran going marine tank, I cant use banelings/muta/zerglings/roaches and after that my options are just gone and I usually just keep sending my army to its death trying to protect my main, and my usual reaction is terran imba and stuff like that but now I'd like to actually be able to beat this guys. I've been looking around and the only advice I found is scout it and then when they're not sieged up hit, but usually when I do that he just sieges one tank and unsieges one in the back and slowly moves forward making my mutalisks pretty much useless since all the marines are there defending them. My question is, what do I do against mass marine/tank slowly moving up to my base. and I uploaded a replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?nylm7o5bwy9nu1e NOTE: I do know my macro isn't the best and that I should improve on that but yeah thats not the main problem here (I think, I'm only a gold level zerg so if you think otherwise please tell me) Standard stuff comes out of that replay.... Spend your money better, work on your mechanics, all that kind of stuff. I'd tell you just to work on your macro and that will easily get you to diamond, but since you came here looking for specific advice on tank pushes, here goes. First off, you don't want him to completely have your escape path cut off with tanks. I often make this mistake myself, since a very effective way for you to stall the push is to get your lings and mutas in between his push and his base, which threatens to run into his base, and also cuts off reinforcements from joining his siege line. If you let the reinforcements come up to his forward position, you're making it so much harder to defend. Since mutas are so fast, you can even hit his base while keeping lings in the center of the map to cut off reinforcements. While you're keeping him occupied (if he comes back to his base or the middle of the map to deal with you, then you've succeeded), pump as many units as you possibly can and then hit him at the same time with the lings/banelings from your base, and the lings/mutas you've got in the middle of the map. Chase the marines with the banes, don't let them blow up on tanks. Keep macroing during this, you want more units ready to clean up what's left if you don't kill it all. That's basically all you can really do aside from purely base-trading with him, but you should never really base trade as Zerg since your standing army is much weaker than his. Zerg's advantage comes mostly from their ability to fight, lose a lot of stuff, and almost instantly re-make it. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
I was thinking of a counter vs terran bio on larger macro maps. When terran moves out to around the watchtower (kills your ling there), drop a nydus or fly in some mutas into the terran's main while simultaneously running and burrowing a baneling minefield between the terran army and base (maybe like right in front of the choke/area in front of his natural. If terran goes back, you can pretty much blow up his entire army, as its unlikely he'll scan on the way home to defend. From here, you can continue normally with having successfully pre-defended a timing push with minimal losses. I have asked a couple zerg friends to try this, and I'll get their replays after exam week (lol). If anyone could give me feedback, that would be snazzy. /endbadtheorycrafting | ||
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Adoness
7 Posts
On December 12 2011 10:30 HyperionDreamer wrote: Standard stuff comes out of that replay.... Spend your money better, work on your mechanics, all that kind of stuff. I'd tell you just to work on your macro and that will easily get you to diamond, but since you came here looking for specific advice on tank pushes, here goes. First off, you don't want him to completely have your escape path cut off with tanks. I often make this mistake myself, since a very effective way for you to stall the push is to get your lings and mutas in between his push and his base, which threatens to run into his base, and also cuts off reinforcements from joining his siege line. If you let the reinforcements come up to his forward position, you're making it so much harder to defend. Since mutas are so fast, you can even hit his base while keeping lings in the center of the map to cut off reinforcements. While you're keeping him occupied (if he comes back to his base or the middle of the map to deal with you, then you've succeeded), pump as many units as you possibly can and then hit him at the same time with the lings/banelings from your base, and the lings/mutas you've got in the middle of the map. Chase the marines with the banes, don't let them blow up on tanks. Keep macroing during this, you want more units ready to clean up what's left if you don't kill it all. That's basically all you can really do aside from purely base-trading with him, but you should never really base trade as Zerg since your standing army is much weaker than his. Zerg's advantage comes mostly from their ability to fight, lose a lot of stuff, and almost instantly re-make it. Thank you so much, I just beat a top plat terran doing marine tank/thor using your tips, cutting off the reinforcements really really helps alot with killing the contain he already has, again thank you so much! :D | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On December 07 2011 11:11 HeavOnEarth wrote: its hardly ever cost effective when ur trading muta for marine unless theyre heavily overstimmed or u can pick off a couple without losing / getting mutas dmg'd when you're trying to build up ur muta cloud , trading isn't a good idea howeer it IS cost effective to clear out some marines + a turret, in certain positions so u can kill other shit ie scvs, add ons /eng bays and so on but u can only do this quick snipe + harass when u have a BIG muta cloud (provided terran doesn't have gaping holes in his defense) so no , never "trade" only muta for marine. Meh, i disagree with it though. I mean i'm low/mid master and i'm still facing a lot of terrans with only marines and no medivacs around. It's an easy way to pick them off. You can easily go in a 1:1 ratio up to ~ 10 marines but yeah, overstimmed marines are the best. It's always better to wait them to finish their stim before engaging. I recently won a game against a terran that put marines here and there and I won mostly because of it. Here's a perfect example : http://drop.sc/73718?pass=7b2c03d8-ca87-4ebe-851d-a9d480b6d30d ( @ 12:45 exactly. Don't mind my macro i'm still working on it >_<) Though i agree that wasn't really a 1:1 ratio but my point still stands. Always try to pick some marines off when there are not a lot of turrets around and no medivacs. You'd be surprised at how powerfull they are (especially when neither of them are upgraded). | ||
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Drmooose
United States390 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
On December 12 2011 00:05 listal wrote: 1 - defending with drone stacking in your first point is definitely correct. if you pool before gas and see the all-in coming, you should lay 2 spines pre-emptively behind your minerals as well. if it isn't an all-in with drones, all you need to do is a-move every drone and make it out alive. 2 - if you're being all-inned, your priority is to survive. if you do, you automatically win. if it's just 6 lings and a drone to spine, you still come out leagues ahead by using all drones to survive. your income rate should be double, if not more than your opponent's for the minute following the failed rush, so it takes only a minute to catch up. add in a quicker queen, and you're leagues ahead by three minutes after the failed rush. 3 - it's definitely worthwhile to lay 2 spines in the event that you didn't catch drones coming along with the zerglings. also, if he runs around his zerglings and for some reason you weren't able to catch his spine, the two spines will be your saving grace. definitely delay the queen though until after the rush is over in favor of the spines and (possibly necessary) zerglings. 4 - a surround in your mineral line is ideal, but not likely. hitting his zerglings with stacked drones is even better. however, even a front-on fight swings heavily in your favor, so it's not a big deal if you can't catch him in your mineral line. 5 - if you didn't lay 2 spines and his spine finishes, you're in hot water. you're definitely not dead though, since he has to get the spine into position to do anything other than poke at your buildings, since the spine is typically laid at the edge of the creep ahead of the 6 zerglings. you should have enough time to muster up some zerglings and a queen. with that force + your drones, you should be able to easily take care of the zerglings and spine. just make sure your zerglings aren't the focus of the spine, and send your queen in first to soak the hits from the spine. 6 - there definitely is. you need 2 spines behind your mineral line against this, ideally. someone who doesn't hit your drones head-on and diverts you from being able to attack the spine crawler can definitely cause problems, especially if you gassed before pool. i think i address this in points 1 and 2 though. Thanks a lot for this detailed answer! it helps a lot for sure | ||
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whitefenix
Sweden40 Posts
The problem is I dont know when to put the other 3 gases up or when to get lair. I usually drone until i have at least 10-15 drones mining, then get lair and 3 gases simultaneously, the problem is that I often end up behind in mutas. I really don't know the proper gas/lair timings, could anyone give me some rule of thumb to when lair/gases should be taken? | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On December 13 2011 03:05 whitefenix wrote: Hey everyone! I need some help with gas timings in ZvZ. Currently I do a 14/14 where I keep one drone in gas after getting 100 for speed, this allows me to expand and still get banelings at a pretty decent timing, I put the other two back after my hatch goes down (assuming opponent isnt roaching). The problem is I dont know when to put the other 3 gases up or when to get lair. I usually drone until i have at least 10-15 drones mining, then get lair and 3 gases simultaneously, the problem is that I often end up behind in mutas. I really don't know the proper gas/lair timings, could anyone give me some rule of thumb to when lair/gases should be taken? ZvZ is really hard to get a handle on since it's all about keeping tabs on the other player's drone count and trying to stay ahead of it. Basically, if you are on equal bases, try to be just a bit more greedy than your opponent and if he attacks you, then rely on defenders advantage to hold. As far as gas goes, I play in mid master league and I generally go up to 2 as I start lair (to start an upgrade at my first evo), and take the 2 at my natural expansion when I feel that I have enough drones saturating it. I have a really weird style in ZvZ though, so it's probably better just to focus on macro if you are plat or below. You mentioned going mutas, which I'm seeing sooooooo many people do in ZvZ these days. Did it happen in a GSL match and now everyone is doing it? I personally hate mutas in ZvZ, although they give you map control they are insanely expensive, and only really have merit until the other person gets infestors and a few hydras. One fungal and all of your mutas die to the hydras. Plus, the hydras double as glass cannon dps dealers in ground battles when he pushes out after your mutas are dead. tldr: ZvZ is all about scouting. Check what your opponent is doing (fast lair, early roach ling timing, fast third expansion) and react accordingly. Generally you get up to 4 extractors during the process of your lair morphing, so you have the gas for the critical tech structures when the lair finishes. | ||
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