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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On December 04 2011 20:28 KimJongChill wrote:
Do you guys have any tips on making mutas work against zerg and protoss?
Against zerg, I never really know how to secure expansions after going spire, as it seems like my opponents just have a huge ground army. Does this mean that I'm getting mutas too late?
Against protoss, it's not even surviving gateway timings, I just never know what else I should be doing besides making mutas. Should I be really greedy with my expansions? Should I be focusing on ground upgrades at all? I've had a couple games where toss seems to stay on 2 base and mass colossus/stalker/archon and not even my mass spines can hold it...
my opinion (and I am not sure I completely address all your questions here ) :
Against zerg, one important element is almost constant scouting... Your problem sounds related to that. You can't just transition to mutas and pray that he is not massing up an army. Place an overlord behind in natural when possible; send zerglings; and when you see him stopping drones and making an army, do the same: as you started a bit later, you will be ahead in drones, and if not too late, on an equal ground for army. Therefore, if done correctly it'll give you a strong economic advantage. In this regard, making a "safety roach warren" even if you are not using it, is useful just to have tools to react if he is pushing.
Against protoss, making ground upgrades sounds necessary in any regular situation.
Making mutas can go into two directions: do you make only some mutas at some point in the game, to pressure while transitioning? or do you mass mutas? If you are massing mutas, base trade is a serious option, often easier than trying to defend; in which case you might prefer to make zerglings instead of mass spines. If you are transitioning out of mutas, going for infestor broodlords or corruptors broodlords are serious options for late game, especially as you can have air upgrades started early.
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Hey guys, i'm starting up sc2 again.. and i'd like a little bit of help.
I need some general reactions to common zvt pressures.
such as getting a roach warren + roaches against blue flame hellions, extra queens against banshees etc.
basically i just need to know some of the common ways a terran can pressure, and how you generally go about defending
(i plan on using nestea's macro style ZvT build if it matters)
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Hey guys I'm wondering how you deal with 6 gate + robo support with immortals. Normally when i see a regular 6 gate, I just pile on roaches and zerlings and just overwhelm. However, when they mix in immortals this composition is auto lose, I'm takling about 3-5 immortals. In this case do you have to get hydras?
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On December 05 2011 09:35 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm wondering how you deal with 6 gate + robo support with immortals. Normally when i see a regular 6 gate, I just pile on roaches and zerlings and just overwhelm. However, when they mix in immortals this composition is auto lose, I'm takling about 3-5 immortals. In this case do you have to get hydras?
getting hydralisks is correct. you should check out the IEM NY match between DRG and Gatored on Dual Sight, since it exemplifies a response to what you're describing. you can download the replay of that match here: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/51704
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On November 30 2011 21:06 Dougalis wrote:Hey guys I thought I would post this here because I doubt it's worth a full thread. My problem is this; Recently I have found myself improving my game a lot (still only gold , playing plats) but now I'm finding more games goto late game and this is where i fall down, once I'm on 4 base my play just seems to fall apart  I forget basic things and I just get overrun by the other players better macro ( this is especially true with marine tanking terrans) Is there any drills, tips or methods I can use to concentrate on improving my macro other than just playing. I know the answe to this might just be to play more but thought I would try my luck in this thread. thanks in advance.
if you aren't hotkeying your army, buildings, and queens, you should start. those are key to improving base management when your games shift to hinging on your macromanagement.
also, i suggest learning how to use map hotkeys if you don't use them already. i got into using them forever ago in Broodwar, and i basically can't live without them. a lot of my ability to macromanage and multitask in general is dependent on using map hotkeys.
aside from that, time spent playing will improve your speed gradually. i think that doesn't need to be said, but that's what impacts your ability to macromanage by far.
to be honest, the reason it becomes easier over time is because the cyclical nature of having to manage your bases every so often becomes second nature. after you do it enough, you don't think about what you have to do; instead, you're eyeballing the minimap and thinking ahead about what it is you want to accomplish. once you play enough that you get to this point, that's basically when you're going to start seeing improvements in your end-game. gotta make base management second nature
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Hey guys, just looking or a little help. I always seem to start feeling really well with a match up and then something happens and I just start doing terribly bad. Im a high gold/low plat hoping to get to plat before the end of this season. So for my questions.
ZvT: It ways ends up to be a macro game for me, no matter what. I constanly forget to scout, and I'm off and on with my injects. My biggest problem seems to be when terrans start spreading tanks marines and turrets in the middle of the map with PF's all around. I Alwaysgo ling/bling/infestor and soemtimes tech to broodlords. I just can't seem to get through this "wall" that the terrans make.
ZvP: Same kind of macro game for me, I fast expand for the most part and hold off 4 gates realy well. I always build a really nice economy and am able to pump out roaches. I feel that burrow/tunnling claws is essitienl for the roaches vs a death ball, but I don't know if infestors will rally help me beat the death ball.
ZvZ: I always seem to drone up too much or fast expand on the wrong maps and get punished for it. Not rally too sure what I'm doing wrong here though because I do fairly well in this matchup. The one question I have is, if I feel I have an economic advantage after a ling/bling start, should i go roach/infestor/hydra or muta ling ?
Any help at all to get me back on track would be great. Thanks in advanced
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On December 05 2011 04:47 Templar. wrote:
Hey guys, i'm starting up sc2 again.. and i'd like a little bit of help.
I need some general reactions to common zvt pressures.
such as getting a roach warren + roaches against blue flame hellions, extra queens against banshees etc.
basically i just need to know some of the common ways a terran can pressure, and how you generally go about defending
(i plan on using nestea's macro style ZvT build if it matters)
Hi there
I assume here that you are doing some kind of hatch first build, like 15 hatch, 15 pool. I will mention only very early pressures: then there are early mid game pressures, like marine tank or 16 marine drop, etc.
- the earliest pressure a terran can put is bunker rush with 2 barracks. Against this, pull some drones (like 5 or 6 + 1 drone per each scv: if 3 scv sent, pull 9 drones or so; but only 6 or 7 if you see one scv); split drones to attack scv and marines; when spawning pool has finished, make zerglings. you should not let a bunker finish. If it is in range of your natural and see it will finish, then start a spine in your nat.
Some bunker rushes are strong, they are the ones made with two barracks (built at 11 and 11 scv for the most aggressive one; 11/13 or 12/14 being more classical). Sometimes one barrack openers will start a bunker. Don't overreact then, just pull like 3 or 4 scvs to prevent the bunker from being finished (but still make sure it is not built; if it is , yet, I can most of the time get rid of it, with no big big damage, as your opponent has only one barrack to make marines).
- if a terran is not 2 raxing you, you will 90% of the time see helions. Against this, two possible defenses: one with roaches, easier but less frequent because considered to be more expensive (in regard of gas, especially). one build for that would be: 15 hatch 17 pool, 17 gas, 27 roach warren, @100% warren, roaches. Or, make one or two spines, Queens, and zerglings (put them in the back, not in the front), while constricting space with buildings, such as evolution chambers. If he tries to run into your natural or main, try to circle helions with zerglings. If you see, that your opponent is going for more than 4 helions, i.e. 6 or maybe 8; or even better, if you see him having blue flame, then the terran is likely to go for mech. (otherwise, after the original four helions, he would have switch factory and barracks, to start making mass marines and siege tanks).
- these first helions can occasionally be followed by banshees (although this has become less frequent). It can be 1 port or 2 port banshees. 1 port banshee will usually be with clock, whereas 2 port banshee won't as it would be too costly in terms of gas. For one port banshee, I would recommend 1 spore in each base (maybe one at your rally point, or between main and natural), + adding queens. For two port banshee, don't be greedy on spores, i would personnally put three in each base. Against two port banshee, mass lings and a good old baneling bust can really do the job to put counter pressure.
- these helions can also be followed by some marauder helion one base push (quite uncommon, but still regularly met, it's worth it to know how to deal with that). Characteristic of this would be no expansion from terran until quite late in the game. I personnally defend that with mass roaches, which don't do very well against marauder but nullifies helions. I am not sure wether this is a very standard defense though...
- Occasionally you may also meet some kind of helion/marine early drop in your main. The point being to avoid spines at your natural of course. I am not completely sure about this one, but I am afraid there is no original solution: make units, and relocate your spines.
- some reaper pressure: this is quite uncommon: your opponent sends one reaper to harass a bit your mineral lines. then just micro correctly your new born queens and drones, to minimize losses. Make sure there is no bunker going with that, as this may become an annoying reaper bunker rush (which comes later than the classical marine bunker rush), which is efficient, as reapers are good against buildings. the reaper early pressure can be the sign of your opponent fast expanding.
- Some kind of marine / scv all in. This is kind of hard to see coming. Scouting is important then, you need to have a zergling somewhere on the field, or a well placed overlord. When you see it, of course make units, but also throw down a baneling nest (if necessary cancel zergling speed), spines if you have too much money... (I haven't met that for ages though...).
- some early thor all in, but I haven't seen that for ages either...
I am not sure I am not forgetting something...
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On December 05 2011 09:35 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm wondering how you deal with 6 gate + robo support with immortals. Normally when i see a regular 6 gate, I just pile on roaches and zerlings and just overwhelm. However, when they mix in immortals this composition is auto lose, I'm takling about 3-5 immortals. In this case do you have to get hydras?
Remeber, hydras rape every protoss army which doesent posses collosi. So ling+hydra should rape it as long as you scouted that kind of allin. Since protoss will lose if he does 6 or 7 gate robo push and not kill you immediatelly.
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On December 05 2011 19:53 Nawe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 09:35 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm wondering how you deal with 6 gate + robo support with immortals. Normally when i see a regular 6 gate, I just pile on roaches and zerlings and just overwhelm. However, when they mix in immortals this composition is auto lose, I'm takling about 3-5 immortals. In this case do you have to get hydras? Remeber, hydras rape every protoss army which doesent posses collosi. So ling+hydra should rape it as long as you scouted that kind of allin. Since protoss will lose if he does 6 or 7 gate robo push and not kill you immediatelly.
Hydras are the response to gateway units, ling hydra is demolished by hts as well, in which case you should be going roaches. And please don't say hydras are good vs stargate, stargate openers should be countered with spores and queens.
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On December 05 2011 22:16 Ninja_Bread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 19:53 Nawe wrote:On December 05 2011 09:35 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm wondering how you deal with 6 gate + robo support with immortals. Normally when i see a regular 6 gate, I just pile on roaches and zerlings and just overwhelm. However, when they mix in immortals this composition is auto lose, I'm takling about 3-5 immortals. In this case do you have to get hydras? Remeber, hydras rape every protoss army which doesent posses collosi. So ling+hydra should rape it as long as you scouted that kind of allin. Since protoss will lose if he does 6 or 7 gate robo push and not kill you immediatelly. Hydras are the response to gateway units, ling hydra is demolished by hts as well, in which case you should be going roaches. And please don't say hydras are good vs stargate, stargate openers should be countered with spores and queens.
I am tempted to say that the whole point, when defending any early protoss push, is to consider what's next. Because it is one thing to defend a push, and it is another to be in a good position after that.
This is particularly true against a 6 gate push with immortals. the issue is not only to know what the good composition is. I would personally think that pure roach is not very good, but could possibly do the job; depending on the engagement, as would roach lings in sufficient numbers (but it all depends on your macro: will you have enough on time? did you take an early third? etc.); infestor lings will work pretty fine, as will hydra lings, or even hydra roach.
Then, I feel that the core problem is rather to know what you want to be left with. If you go hydra lings, the problem is that you will not be able to put pressure back very efficiently, as hydras are slow. When he sees them, the protoss might even consider just to turn back with force fields, and you will not be able to catch him. Countering will be of course be a possibility, but your advantage will probably not be huge enough to guarantee a win, and you might fall behind. Other issue: as he has some robotic bay, he will switch to colossi and suddenly your hydra ling becomes very weak.
This is why, I would personnally favor infestors roaches lings (with later switch to corruptors and broodlords), which I feel is much more flexible (or even infestors lings only in this specific scenario). But if you think that hydra lings, maybe with some additional roaches, is a fine composition to go with in midgame, then just do, it is certainly a possibility.
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On December 05 2011 22:16 Ninja_Bread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 19:53 Nawe wrote:On December 05 2011 09:35 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm wondering how you deal with 6 gate + robo support with immortals. Normally when i see a regular 6 gate, I just pile on roaches and zerlings and just overwhelm. However, when they mix in immortals this composition is auto lose, I'm takling about 3-5 immortals. In this case do you have to get hydras? Remeber, hydras rape every protoss army which doesent posses collosi. So ling+hydra should rape it as long as you scouted that kind of allin. Since protoss will lose if he does 6 or 7 gate robo push and not kill you immediatelly. Hydras are the response to gateway units, ling hydra is demolished by hts as well, in which case you should be going roaches. And please don't say hydras are good vs stargate, stargate openers should be countered with spores and queens.
When protoss is doing 6gate robo that isnt containing HT's. He asked about holding off that push. And btw hydras rape gate units and immortals...And roach is not counter to HT's lol.
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On December 05 2011 22:16 Ninja_Bread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 19:53 Nawe wrote:On December 05 2011 09:35 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm wondering how you deal with 6 gate + robo support with immortals. Normally when i see a regular 6 gate, I just pile on roaches and zerlings and just overwhelm. However, when they mix in immortals this composition is auto lose, I'm takling about 3-5 immortals. In this case do you have to get hydras? Remeber, hydras rape every protoss army which doesent posses collosi. So ling+hydra should rape it as long as you scouted that kind of allin. Since protoss will lose if he does 6 or 7 gate robo push and not kill you immediatelly. Hydras are the response to gateway units, ling hydra is demolished by hts as well, in which case you should be going roaches. And please don't say hydras are good vs stargate, stargate openers should be countered with spores and queens.
Problem of course being that you lose all your map control. Spores and queens work fine against phoenix or voidray attacks, but the protoss can just show you his air force and you're stuck in your base. Not saying that hydras is the solution to get out on the map, but this is my main problem against toss, feels like I automatically lose if a toss gets air early enough since I lose all map control, can't deny him from taking a third and can't be sure when he'll attack.
Anyone have any advice? Hydra works defensively but makes it really hard to move out, muta is too hard to transition into from ling/roach IMO and is pwned by phoenix anyway... is Infestor the only viable solution?
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Hey guys, recently I started playing zerg because it got two things that i love: multiple options and the ability to exert pressure (less than terran but more than protoss imo).
Currently i'm a gold player and while i know that BOs in my level don't matter much, i like the speedling expand build mainly because it is safe... but for me, when i use it against terrans i suffer a lot. Is there any variant or another option similar to that build in ZvT?
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On December 05 2011 23:28 Gleen wrote:
Hey guys, recently I started playing zerg because it got two things that i love: multiple options and the ability to exert pressure (less than terran but more than protoss imo).
Currently i'm a gold player and while i know that BOs in my level don't matter much, i like the speedling expand build mainly because it is safe... but for me, when i use it against terrans i suffer a lot. Is there any variant or another option similar to that build in ZvT?
What do you mean by suffer? It's almost always safe to go hatch first vs terran since bunker rush can be held of with just drones, but you should ask yourself if it's worth it for you. A properly done speedling expand should give you almost the same economic strength as a hatch first, but with the added lings early if the terran 2-raxes.
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By suffer I mean, when they push i don't feel like i can hold, like i made too many drones or if i can hold i made too many lings and my economy can't keep up so i have to drone up to lost when they push again. Guess it a scout problem?
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On December 05 2011 23:41 Gleen wrote:
By suffer I mean, when they push i don't feel like i can hold, like i made too many drones or if i can hold i made too many lings and my economy can't keep up so i have to drone up to lost when they push again. Guess it a scout problem?
Definitely, terran can be hard to scout, it's quite easy for them to wall with 1 rax and hide 2-3 behind it where you can't see. My personal tactic against terran is to keep my first 4 lings outside of their front and constantly peek up to see the marine count. If he hasn't made any sign of expanding when I have around 30-35 supply, I start pumping lings (possibly roaches) non-stop until I see an expansion, when I see him leave his base, I immediately plop down 2-3 spines as well. It's all about getting to the point where your saturated main and your half-saturated natural is enough to stay ahead of the one-basing terran, then ignore droning until you know it's safe.
So in summary: Don't drone too much if your opponent hasn't expanded, and drone early instead of later so you have enough drones to hold droning for a longer period.
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On December 05 2011 23:13 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:16 Ninja_Bread wrote:On December 05 2011 19:53 Nawe wrote:On December 05 2011 09:35 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm wondering how you deal with 6 gate + robo support with immortals. Normally when i see a regular 6 gate, I just pile on roaches and zerlings and just overwhelm. However, when they mix in immortals this composition is auto lose, I'm takling about 3-5 immortals. In this case do you have to get hydras? Remeber, hydras rape every protoss army which doesent posses collosi. So ling+hydra should rape it as long as you scouted that kind of allin. Since protoss will lose if he does 6 or 7 gate robo push and not kill you immediatelly. Hydras are the response to gateway units, ling hydra is demolished by hts as well, in which case you should be going roaches. And please don't say hydras are good vs stargate, stargate openers should be countered with spores and queens. Problem of course being that you lose all your map control. Spores and queens work fine against phoenix or voidray attacks, but the protoss can just show you his air force and you're stuck in your base. Not saying that hydras is the solution to get out on the map, but this is my main problem against toss, feels like I automatically lose if a toss gets air early enough since I lose all map control, can't deny him from taking a third and can't be sure when he'll attack. Anyone have any advice? Hydra works defensively but makes it really hard to move out, muta is too hard to transition into from ling/roach IMO and is pwned by phoenix anyway... is Infestor the only viable solution?
Yeah, after mutas became a much bigger threat for Toss, the metagame has evolved into preemptive stargate pressure with a high phoenix count. The last 3 ZvP that I played on Tal Darim was all the same : ffe into 1 or 2 stargate pressure with a lot of phoenixes (up to 10) into one or two robo pumping colossy, I won all three  .
On this map hydras are clearly not an option, unless you want to nydus all-in (which shouldn't work against a good toss player). The walking distance and the area to creep to be able to do a counter push is so big that you can't deny a early third or exchange some army to slow down the protoss death ball.
What I have been doing is a fast upgrade fast tech mass ling style. I use my 150 first gaz to get the armor upgrade (it help so much vs +1 zealots) around the 6min mark. Then I get zergling speed and +1 melee. On Tal Darim I take my third after breaking the rocks with my first 6 lings (from a 12 pool). It is easier to defend stargate pressure with spore+queen when your three bases are close to each other. And with the mass ling style, spines are mendatory to defend a sentry push. You can move them between your nat and your third easily with a good creep spread.
The thing is that after a stargate pressure the Toss won't have many sentrys. So upgraded lings banelings will do wonders against his army (phoenixes are not that good against lings). Without any gaz invested into roach or hydra you can also tech much faster. So build the infester pit right after getting +2/+2 upgrades and get rolling banes plus a spire. Depending on the protoss composition you will need either corruptors (vs phoenix and colossy) or infestors (vs gateway units). Ideally you want a little bit (~6) of both. Exchange some army cost effectively, deny his 4th while getting your 4th and 5th and get hive tech for +3 upgrades and broods or ultras. Lings and banes are also great at killing probes with mutlipronged attacks and once you get rid of his stargate units you can be annoying with drop or muta harass. Getting burrow is also good to spot each expo with a ling and to do some infester harass.
Unfortunately that won't work on every map. You need to be able to protect both your third and your nat with spines and you need long walking distances, open fields and multiple path of attacks to take advantage of your highly mobile army.
Shatered Temple (with a rock protected third) and Tal Darim are good maps for this style. Metal and Nerazym Crypt may work if you can defend a gateway push. Don't do that on Shakuras or Xel Naga.
Hope this help : ).
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On December 05 2011 23:13 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:16 Ninja_Bread wrote:On December 05 2011 19:53 Nawe wrote:On December 05 2011 09:35 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm wondering how you deal with 6 gate + robo support with immortals. Normally when i see a regular 6 gate, I just pile on roaches and zerlings and just overwhelm. However, when they mix in immortals this composition is auto lose, I'm takling about 3-5 immortals. In this case do you have to get hydras? Remeber, hydras rape every protoss army which doesent posses collosi. So ling+hydra should rape it as long as you scouted that kind of allin. Since protoss will lose if he does 6 or 7 gate robo push and not kill you immediatelly. Hydras are the response to gateway units, ling hydra is demolished by hts as well, in which case you should be going roaches. And please don't say hydras are good vs stargate, stargate openers should be countered with spores and queens. Problem of course being that you lose all your map control. Spores and queens work fine against phoenix or voidray attacks, but the protoss can just show you his air force and you're stuck in your base. Not saying that hydras is the solution to get out on the map, but this is my main problem against toss, feels like I automatically lose if a toss gets air early enough since I lose all map control, can't deny him from taking a third and can't be sure when he'll attack. Anyone have any advice? Hydra works defensively but makes it really hard to move out, muta is too hard to transition into from ling/roach IMO and is pwned by phoenix anyway... is Infestor the only viable solution?
You can still easily scout with overseers and speedlings. The proper response is spores & queens, if he invests too heavily into air you can just go flat out kill him, of he just makes a few you're free to expand with queens and spores. The key is yo just make his voids not cost efficient.
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I have a simple question:
in Z v P, when protoss is 3 gate expanding, what are the timings? more specifically, supposing that you went 14 gas 14 pool,
- when do you stop droning ?
- when do you take your gases?
- when do you take your third?
Cause i am regularly caught off guard, and I think I drone too much, take my third too early, etc.
Thanks!
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On December 06 2011 07:27 Macpo wrote:
I have a simple question:
in Z v P, when protoss is 3 gate expanding, what are the timings? more specifically, supposing that you went 14 gas 14 pool,
- when do you stop droning ?
- when do you take your gases?
- when do you take your third?
Cause i am regularly caught off guard, and I think I drone too much, take my third too early, etc.
Thanks!
- when do you stop droning ?
If he hasn't made an attempt to expand by 6:00, you should stop droning right there. When he places his expansion you can at least drone until his extra gateways are done. Sac an ol.
- when do you take your gases?
Depends on a lot of factors, but I generally take a 2nd gas just after my 3rd is started and 2 more when my lair is done. I add my last two if I'm going for a muta swich or some other lair tech.
- when do you take your third?
If you see nexus and a forge building at his nat you can take a third. If you only see the nex and no forge or sim city gateways, be wary of nex cancel.
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EPT
