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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 29 2011 06:02 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:17 Baseic wrote:On November 29 2011 03:09 Alpina wrote:On November 29 2011 02:41 T.O.P. wrote:On November 29 2011 02:34 Alpina wrote:
Is it even possible to defend 14/14 ling baneling push (allin) when going 15 hatch 15 pool? Everytime i do this i lose. I get 2 queens asap, produce only lings nothing more, make spine and still lose cause he is sending speedlings banelings at me non-stop. It's totally possible, or else no one would 15 hatch, because 15 hatch is designed to counter 14/14. If you feel that he's gonna all in you. Pull queen from main down to nat. Engage with only some of your zerglings until all his banes are dead. Then why i never can defend it? ^^ I brought my 2nd queen but it was killed as well. Do you keep your queens on the ramp? Because you should use them to block the ramp. There is no cost effective way of breaking that. Also you have pros spending their first 50 gas on bane nest, you may try that. Also start a spine asap, if you can't get it at your nat, place it at your main first, then connect with a creep tumor and get it to your nat. I guess you are right i need to keep queens on the ramp, but still it's just really hard to hold, i guess it's better to always go 14/14.
I used to believe in queens on ramp, but it doesn't work if the queens aren't attacking along with the spine. I guess it's all about micro and that requires foresight on what will happen next.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 29 2011 04:01 romelako wrote:
How greedy is too greedy for Zerg? I mean, in order to stay ahead one base, you're required to make a risk. The concept is "stay ahead by 1 base" but sometimes that's really hard because it's very easy to get into the jist of droning and all of a sudden lose to an attack that you weren't prepared for.
I've heard that you just need to stay half of a base ahead, but I feel like with Zerg I need to be an entire base ahead. But saturating that entire base means I leaving myself vulnerable to attack.
When should a Zerg be grabbing their third/fourth? I'm a Master-level Zerg and I still feel like I lose a majority of my games due to a poor economy. Thanks for your help.
You play as greedy as you can without dying. That knowledge comes from playing thousands of games. You need to scout and have a understanding of what your opponent is capable of doing.
I don't think it's a good idea just to follow a rule.
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Your biggest mistake was getting supply blocked right before the big battle.
Other things
- No need to get zergling speed against a FFE when you're not all innning. Get your lair with your first 100 gas instead.
- You scout him building A LOT of gateways. It should be pretty obvious that there's no way he has a robo because of his forge upgrading + his sentry count. He can't possibly have detection (and he didn't). That's the key in determining if its a +2 blink all in or some crazy 8gate attack like what you had. Look for sentries + scout with overlord. He should also be very stalker heavy if he's going for the blink push.
- You know he has no detection, so you should invest in roach burrow. This is where getting the early zergling speed really hurts you. You could have had lair muuuchhh earlier and managed to get burrow research done for the big engagement.
Otherwise if you know you're stuck (like in your position where lair was later), I'd honestly recommend banelings vs a composition that was that zealot and sentry heavy. One good flank and all his light units go boom, and you can just rally lings with a few roaches to clean things up.
To summarize: Early lair ------> burrow
Late lair -------> banelings
- Don't attack into him away from your spines. That was rather bad and you lost quite a bit of lings.
- Don't attack directly into the zealots with you lings, they get chopped to pieces, and are better off attacking the sentries / stalkers from behind to soak up their damage while your roaches kill the zealots.
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Are there any other compositions good against pure mech (apart from broodlords)?
I ask this because I made the mistake of not getting my hive quickly enough in a game just now, and I was wondering if there's any way to recover or is it a sure loss? How well can roach drops work?
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On November 29 2011 07:39 thesideshow wrote:
Are there any other compositions good against pure mech (apart from broodlords)?
I ask this because I made the mistake of not getting my hive quickly enough in a game just now, and I was wondering if there's any way to recover or is it a sure loss? How well can roach drops work?
muta, roach, speed banelings works really well. Don't mass muta, it's just to soak thor damage, unless of course he does not have many thors, but it's rare. Banelings to blow up hellions, but banelings blows everything else as well, just always try to catch him unsieged.
Roach drops are really good, try to drop, and at the same time attack his other base with other roaches. And don't forget it may come time when he decided to just a-move into your base, so prepare spines, so broodlords.
I personally don't try to rush to BLs cause they are countered and scouted too easily. If he goes into mech ghost when you got BLs then you probably won't be able to kill it with any unit combo imo.
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I quit Zerg for a few months to play off-races, and going back to it, I'm curious if any progress has been made on ZvZ. Specifically openings, is it still coin flip crap 15 hatch > 14/14 > 9/10 pool etc. I freaking hate zvz on large maps where I can't scout fast D:
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On November 29 2011 08:19 Tachion wrote:
I quit Zerg for a few months to play off-races, and going back to it, I'm curious if any progress has been made on ZvZ. Specifically openings, is it still coin flip crap 15 hatch > 14/14 > 9/10 pool etc. I freaking hate zvz on large maps where I can't scout fast D:
I go with speedling expands every game unless I can overlord scout right away. They're extremely safe and you can pretty much transition into what ever you want, agression, a relatively fast third base. I love it's flexibility. It still retains quite a coin-flippy nature unless you have superb micro.
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at what timings should I be sacking an ov to scout in the opponent's base? specifically against protoss, but terran timings would be nice too 
~7:00 be good? since DTs and stargate openings usually hit around 8, right?
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On November 29 2011 10:43 ccesssu wrote:at what timings should I be sacking an ov to scout in the opponent's base? specifically against protoss, but terran timings would be nice too ~7:00 be good? since DTs and stargate openings usually hit around 8, right?
Against protoss 6-6:15 is a great time to sacrifice an overlord vs forge FE, vs non forge FE 5:30-6 minutes is perfect I believe (i know it might be 5 minutes its been awhile since I faced non forge fe >>).
Vs terran 6 minutes is about good to actually. Just aim for 6 minutes
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also vs non forge fe, mineral walk a drone in there before 4mins (ie before 1st stalker/sentry)
vs forge fe i generally sac an ovie based on his natural expansion gas timing / nexus chronos being spent on workers or not etc.
if i dont understand something ill just go ahead and sac an ovie
obviously not the best thing to do every game but if ur just learning how and when to sac ovies u might as well fuck around with the timings 
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On November 29 2011 03:09 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 02:41 T.O.P. wrote:On November 29 2011 02:34 Alpina wrote:
Is it even possible to defend 14/14 ling baneling push (allin) when going 15 hatch 15 pool? Everytime i do this i lose. I get 2 queens asap, produce only lings nothing more, make spine and still lose cause he is sending speedlings banelings at me non-stop. It's totally possible, or else no one would 15 hatch, because 15 hatch is designed to counter 14/14. If you feel that he's gonna all in you. Pull queen from main down to nat. Engage with only some of your zerglings until all his banes are dead. Then why i never can defend it? ^^ I brought my 2nd queen but it was killed as well.
One of the ways you can try to defend against a 14/14 (or an even earlier 13/12) is to make sure you have good scouting. On certain maps you can pretty much line your overlords all the way to his base and still maintain decent vision of incoming lings. Most all in players will bunch up a ton of zerglings before pushing out, so it's essential that you have a ling or two just outside his base and use them to go in and scout constantly.
You'll want to see how many lings he has compared to yours and usually it's best to assume that every larvae that is spawning is a pair of lings that will be coming out soon. If he has a queen out and there's 5+ eggs on the way, build lings immediately. Have your ling scout when the eggs pop and if it's drones then you can afford one round of droning. If it's lings, build a spine crawler (or two if natural has big opening) immediately.
If he goes 14/14 or even 13/12 then it's highly possible he'll have speed when he reaches your base so you'll want your queens blocking the ramp when you see him coming (make sure to inject larvae first) and use your lings to tank his lings near the ramp. Hopefully your queens will provide enough damage to shoo him off while your spine kills off some of his lings (and possibly die in the process).
From then on it's a game of who can get more lings out faster. If you know he's going all in, don't spend your larvae on drones yet, you'll want to make sure that you have at least as many lings as he has now + ~5 (higher if not confident) larvae worth of lings. This is to give you some leeway in case he has hidden some lings around and will be looking to attack you again.
Against banelings, you don't ever want to bunch up your lings and A-move into his lings. The banelings will make quick work of your lings so it's usually better to split your lings into 2 control groups. One should be your main bulk of lings and the other you'll want about 4 lings to pick off banelings. If you're lucky you can pick off a few blings before his lings surround your small group. Here's where you want to try and damage his lings as much as possible. If he's lings are surrounding your lings which were surrounding the bling, then it's pretty much possible to get 2-3 hits off before the bling is exposed or his moves his lings to allow the bling to attack. Rinse and repeat till all blings are dead,
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I bind all my hatcheries to 4 and like in every game once or twice all the waypoints disappear and the units stay where they hatch. The real problem is I don't know if I'm missclicking with my mouse or pushing some wrong button on a keyboard I have to fix this it's really annoying. Anybody has a clue what I'm doing wrong? How do you even delete all waypoints?
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On November 29 2011 21:34 mrGRAPE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:09 Alpina wrote:On November 29 2011 02:41 T.O.P. wrote:On November 29 2011 02:34 Alpina wrote:
Is it even possible to defend 14/14 ling baneling push (allin) when going 15 hatch 15 pool? Everytime i do this i lose. I get 2 queens asap, produce only lings nothing more, make spine and still lose cause he is sending speedlings banelings at me non-stop. It's totally possible, or else no one would 15 hatch, because 15 hatch is designed to counter 14/14. If you feel that he's gonna all in you. Pull queen from main down to nat. Engage with only some of your zerglings until all his banes are dead. Then why i never can defend it? ^^ I brought my 2nd queen but it was killed as well. One of the ways you can try to defend against a 14/14 (or an even earlier 13/12) is to make sure you have good scouting. On certain maps you can pretty much line your overlords all the way to his base and still maintain decent vision of incoming lings. Most all in players will bunch up a ton of zerglings before pushing out, so it's essential that you have a ling or two just outside his base and use them to go in and scout constantly. You'll want to see how many lings he has compared to yours and usually it's best to assume that every larvae that is spawning is a pair of lings that will be coming out soon. If he has a queen out and there's 5+ eggs on the way, build lings immediately. Have your ling scout when the eggs pop and if it's drones then you can afford one round of droning. If it's lings, build a spine crawler (or two if natural has big opening) immediately. If he goes 14/14 or even 13/12 then it's highly possible he'll have speed when he reaches your base so you'll want your queens blocking the ramp when you see him coming (make sure to inject larvae first) and use your lings to tank his lings near the ramp. Hopefully your queens will provide enough damage to shoo him off while your spine kills off some of his lings (and possibly die in the process). From then on it's a game of who can get more lings out faster. If you know he's going all in, don't spend your larvae on drones yet, you'll want to make sure that you have at least as many lings as he has now + ~5 (higher if not confident) larvae worth of lings. This is to give you some leeway in case he has hidden some lings around and will be looking to attack you again. Against banelings, you don't ever want to bunch up your lings and A-move into his lings. The banelings will make quick work of your lings so it's usually better to split your lings into 2 control groups. One should be your main bulk of lings and the other you'll want about 4 lings to pick off banelings. If you're lucky you can pick off a few blings before his lings surround your small group. Here's where you want to try and damage his lings as much as possible. If he's lings are surrounding your lings which were surrounding the bling, then it's pretty much possible to get 2-3 hits off before the bling is exposed or his moves his lings to allow the bling to attack. Rinse and repeat till all blings are dead,
Thanks.
On scouting, it does not matter for me, cause even if i am close air and i see him going 14/14 and I expect him to go all in i still can't defend :d. But yeah, my mistake was not to block the ramp fast enough.
But overall i think this build is really bad vs. 14/14 and i say why. Imagine he makes bunch of lings and then banelings and attacks you, you make units non stop and try to defend, and at the same time he is dronning like crazy. I once was in similar position and after that attack i ended up with 16 drones vs. his 25. It's just seems like 14/14 is much better build.
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On November 29 2011 22:02 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 21:34 mrGRAPE wrote:On November 29 2011 03:09 Alpina wrote:On November 29 2011 02:41 T.O.P. wrote:On November 29 2011 02:34 Alpina wrote:
Is it even possible to defend 14/14 ling baneling push (allin) when going 15 hatch 15 pool? Everytime i do this i lose. I get 2 queens asap, produce only lings nothing more, make spine and still lose cause he is sending speedlings banelings at me non-stop. It's totally possible, or else no one would 15 hatch, because 15 hatch is designed to counter 14/14. If you feel that he's gonna all in you. Pull queen from main down to nat. Engage with only some of your zerglings until all his banes are dead. Then why i never can defend it? ^^ I brought my 2nd queen but it was killed as well. One of the ways you can try to defend against a 14/14 (or an even earlier 13/12) is to make sure you have good scouting. On certain maps you can pretty much line your overlords all the way to his base and still maintain decent vision of incoming lings. Most all in players will bunch up a ton of zerglings before pushing out, so it's essential that you have a ling or two just outside his base and use them to go in and scout constantly. You'll want to see how many lings he has compared to yours and usually it's best to assume that every larvae that is spawning is a pair of lings that will be coming out soon. If he has a queen out and there's 5+ eggs on the way, build lings immediately. Have your ling scout when the eggs pop and if it's drones then you can afford one round of droning. If it's lings, build a spine crawler (or two if natural has big opening) immediately. If he goes 14/14 or even 13/12 then it's highly possible he'll have speed when he reaches your base so you'll want your queens blocking the ramp when you see him coming (make sure to inject larvae first) and use your lings to tank his lings near the ramp. Hopefully your queens will provide enough damage to shoo him off while your spine kills off some of his lings (and possibly die in the process). From then on it's a game of who can get more lings out faster. If you know he's going all in, don't spend your larvae on drones yet, you'll want to make sure that you have at least as many lings as he has now + ~5 (higher if not confident) larvae worth of lings. This is to give you some leeway in case he has hidden some lings around and will be looking to attack you again. Against banelings, you don't ever want to bunch up your lings and A-move into his lings. The banelings will make quick work of your lings so it's usually better to split your lings into 2 control groups. One should be your main bulk of lings and the other you'll want about 4 lings to pick off banelings. If you're lucky you can pick off a few blings before his lings surround your small group. Here's where you want to try and damage his lings as much as possible. If he's lings are surrounding your lings which were surrounding the bling, then it's pretty much possible to get 2-3 hits off before the bling is exposed or his moves his lings to allow the bling to attack. Rinse and repeat till all blings are dead, Thanks. On scouting, it does not matter for me, cause even if i am close air and i see him going 14/14 and I expect him to go all in i still can't defend :d. But yeah, my mistake was not to block the ramp fast enough. But overall i think this build is really bad vs. 14/14 and i say why. Imagine he makes bunch of lings and then banelings and attacks you, you make units non stop and try to defend, and at the same time he is dronning like crazy. I once was in similar position and after that attack i ended up with 16 drones vs. his 25. It's just seems like 14/14 is much better build.
I do prefer 14/14, but he can't just make a ton of drones and keep streaming lings. But imagine that if you are both doing the exact same defense, lings and banes, then it all depends on your micro.
That's why you have to get a defenders advantage, get 2 queens to block the ramp, then you only need a couple of banes to defend against his lings and banes.
Meanwhile you are free to drone behind this, just don't get your drones on your nat before his aggression is done.
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On November 29 2011 22:02 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 21:34 mrGRAPE wrote:On November 29 2011 03:09 Alpina wrote:On November 29 2011 02:41 T.O.P. wrote:On November 29 2011 02:34 Alpina wrote:
Is it even possible to defend 14/14 ling baneling push (allin) when going 15 hatch 15 pool? Everytime i do this i lose. I get 2 queens asap, produce only lings nothing more, make spine and still lose cause he is sending speedlings banelings at me non-stop. It's totally possible, or else no one would 15 hatch, because 15 hatch is designed to counter 14/14. If you feel that he's gonna all in you. Pull queen from main down to nat. Engage with only some of your zerglings until all his banes are dead. Then why i never can defend it? ^^ I brought my 2nd queen but it was killed as well. One of the ways you can try to defend against a 14/14 (or an even earlier 13/12) is to make sure you have good scouting. On certain maps you can pretty much line your overlords all the way to his base and still maintain decent vision of incoming lings. Most all in players will bunch up a ton of zerglings before pushing out, so it's essential that you have a ling or two just outside his base and use them to go in and scout constantly. You'll want to see how many lings he has compared to yours and usually it's best to assume that every larvae that is spawning is a pair of lings that will be coming out soon. If he has a queen out and there's 5+ eggs on the way, build lings immediately. Have your ling scout when the eggs pop and if it's drones then you can afford one round of droning. If it's lings, build a spine crawler (or two if natural has big opening) immediately. If he goes 14/14 or even 13/12 then it's highly possible he'll have speed when he reaches your base so you'll want your queens blocking the ramp when you see him coming (make sure to inject larvae first) and use your lings to tank his lings near the ramp. Hopefully your queens will provide enough damage to shoo him off while your spine kills off some of his lings (and possibly die in the process). From then on it's a game of who can get more lings out faster. If you know he's going all in, don't spend your larvae on drones yet, you'll want to make sure that you have at least as many lings as he has now + ~5 (higher if not confident) larvae worth of lings. This is to give you some leeway in case he has hidden some lings around and will be looking to attack you again. Against banelings, you don't ever want to bunch up your lings and A-move into his lings. The banelings will make quick work of your lings so it's usually better to split your lings into 2 control groups. One should be your main bulk of lings and the other you'll want about 4 lings to pick off banelings. If you're lucky you can pick off a few blings before his lings surround your small group. Here's where you want to try and damage his lings as much as possible. If he's lings are surrounding your lings which were surrounding the bling, then it's pretty much possible to get 2-3 hits off before the bling is exposed or his moves his lings to allow the bling to attack. Rinse and repeat till all blings are dead, Thanks. On scouting, it does not matter for me, cause even if i am close air and i see him going 14/14 and I expect him to go all in i still can't defend :d. But yeah, my mistake was not to block the ramp fast enough. But overall i think this build is really bad vs. 14/14 and i say why. Imagine he makes bunch of lings and then banelings and attacks you, you make units non stop and try to defend, and at the same time he is dronning like crazy. I once was in similar position and after that attack i ended up with 16 drones vs. his 25. It's just seems like 14/14 is much better build.
Pretty much. In ZvZ I'm leaning more towards 13 pool 12 gas even just so I can get 4-6 lings out earlier with speed to harass. Even on maps like Tal'darim Altar LE where it's super huge, sometimes I get greedy and go 15/15 but will still lose to an all in because it's just so damn effective against an early greedy build.
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On November 29 2011 11:07 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 10:43 ccesssu wrote:at what timings should I be sacking an ov to scout in the opponent's base? specifically against protoss, but terran timings would be nice too ~7:00 be good? since DTs and stargate openings usually hit around 8, right? Against protoss 6-6:15 is a great time to sacrifice an overlord vs forge FE, vs non forge FE 5:30-6 minutes is perfect I believe (i know it might be 5 minutes its been awhile since I faced non forge fe >>). Vs terran 6 minutes is about good to actually. Just aim for 6 minutes
So important to know. If I knew these timings a few weeks back, I would have lost wayyyyyyyy less games. Thanks!
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On November 29 2011 21:54 youngtuna wrote:
I bind all my hatcheries to 4 and like in every game once or twice all the waypoints disappear and the units stay where they hatch. The real problem is I don't know if I'm missclicking with my mouse or pushing some wrong button on a keyboard I have to fix this it's really annoying. Anybody has a clue what I'm doing wrong? How do you even delete all waypoints?
Odds are you are clicking on a hatchery like right clicking on a hatchery. I know if I ever do this (I don't have 4 hatcheries in 1 hotkey though) but if I have 1 hatchery and I right click on a hatchery it takes away all waypoints. I think thats it anyway for me might be the same for you!
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are the builds on liquipedia outdated?
I am going to try and switch to zerg from terran (plat)
any standard builds?
i know zvt 15 hatch 14 pool - but i dont know when to get gas/lair.
Zvz absolutely no idea.
zvp 14pool speedling expand or overpool like sc1?
what are the main thought behind each matchup
eg in tvz attack at like 6-7mins with marines to force lings then double drop 1-1 ups at 10mins then 3-5 tank push at 12mins while expanding if not beforehand.
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EPT
