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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On November 30 2011 19:45 jjhchsc2 wrote:
are the builds on liquipedia outdated?
I am going to try and switch to zerg from terran (plat)
any standard builds?
i know zvt 15 hatch 14 pool - but i dont know when to get gas/lair.
Zvz absolutely no idea.
zvp 14pool speedling expand or overpool like sc1?
what are the main thought behind each matchup
eg in tvz attack at like 6-7mins with marines to force lings then double drop 1-1 ups at 10mins then 3-5 tank push at 12mins while expanding if not beforehand.
at ZvT 15 hatch you can place pool down around 16 if you know there isnt any 2 rax pressure, this is more economical, I dont comment on gas or lair timings as this depends about the build what are you going.
ZvZ 14 gas 14 pool most basic and most safe, first 100 gas get speed and take one drone off from gas if you scout enemy still minign gas after his first 100 gas, place down baneling nest and get few defensive banelings. Again this is most standard and everything what I can pretty much say with out knowing your playstyle or build.
ZvP I do 14 gas 14 pool and maps where protoss normally dont forge fast expand, so I can put some pressure when he tries to take expand and have possibility to do raoch ling all in. On maps where its likely and standard for protoss to go for FFE go for 15 pool 15 hatch and get fast third before second quuen.
Hope my European diamond knowledge is enough for Korean Plat 
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On November 30 2011 19:56 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:45 jjhchsc2 wrote:
are the builds on liquipedia outdated?
I am going to try and switch to zerg from terran (plat)
any standard builds?
i know zvt 15 hatch 14 pool - but i dont know when to get gas/lair.
Zvz absolutely no idea.
zvp 14pool speedling expand or overpool like sc1?
what are the main thought behind each matchup
eg in tvz attack at like 6-7mins with marines to force lings then double drop 1-1 ups at 10mins then 3-5 tank push at 12mins while expanding if not beforehand.
at ZvT 15 hatch you can place pool down around 16 if you know there isnt any 2 rax pressure, this is more economical, I dont comment on gas or lair timings as this depends about the build what are you going. ZvZ 14 gas 14 pool most basic and most safe, first 100 gas get speed and take one drone off from gas if you scout enemy still minign gas after his first 100 gas, place down baneling nest and get few defensive banelings. Again this is most standard and everything what I can pretty much say with out knowing your playstyle or build. ZvP I do 14 gas 14 pool and maps where protoss normally dont forge fast expand, so I can put some pressure when he tries to take expand and have possibility to do raoch ling all in. On maps where its likely and standard for protoss to go for FFE go for 15 pool 15 hatch and get fast third before second quuen. Hope my European diamond knowledge is enough for Korean Plat
Thanks! Lol i am prob like bronze zerg. Need to get into habit of injects and creep spread.
What unit compositions do i need against each race?
And when do i get lair for zvt assuming standard muta doubling
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Hey guys I thought I would post this here because I doubt it's worth a full thread.
My problem is this; Recently I have found myself improving my game a lot (still only gold , playing plats) but now I'm finding more games goto late game and this is where i fall down, once I'm on 4 base my play just seems to fall apart  I forget basic things and I just get overrun by the other players better macro ( this is especially true with marine tanking terrans) Is there any drills, tips or methods I can use to concentrate on improving my macro other than just playing. I know the answe to this might just be to play more but thought I would try my luck in this thread. thanks in advance.
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First, I would say: enjoy your problems, this is the way to improve
Second, I am afraid there is no big easy solution to fix macro. Maybe a few things though:
- make sure you have a correct hotkey set up, which enables you to macro correctly. I am saying this, because I have myself been sticking too long to a bad hotkey set up (with no global hatch hotkey; or with only 2 hotkeys for units, etc). This doesn't mean there is one and only one hotkey set up; but some are definitely better than others. it's kind of frustrating to change a hotkey set up, but once it's done, it's really helpful.
concerning hotkeys, you may want to hotkey certain key buildings like one hatch, or tech buildings, to check regularly if they need your intervention. Personnally, I have one hatch on 7, a key tech on 8 (like spawning pool, infestation pit, spire, etc. and 9 on evolution chambers, so that I can see when i need to inject, tech, upgrade. But I have to admit, I find this terribly difficult to do during the course of the game. But eventually, it is supposed to improve the sharpness of your timings.
- things you can check in replays are: do you pile up money? do you forget tech? do you get supply blocked? do you miss injects? etc. But just checking this, and saying "ok I will never go beyond 1000 minerals ever in a game" is kind of useless I feel.
More interesting would be to ask yourself when does this happen? you will probably realise that the moment you tend to forget things is often the same (during fights, but not only). Then, fixing up macro becomes a bit easier, as you become specific in what is wrong with your macro: not "think about macro all game long"; but rather: "at this time, I can't forget to [inject/make overlord/tech/spend drones]". (like "at 62 food, I can't get supply blocked" or "when I have two saturated bases, at around 60 food, I always start pilling money up, so I should throw down another hatch" or "past first mid game engagement at min 10 vs P, I forget teching" etc.
Then, little by little you fix things in your macro, because you are precisely aware of where your flows are. I really think that's better than swearing you won't forget anything again.
my 2 cent low master advice
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On November 30 2011 20:23 jjhchsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:56 Roynalf wrote:On November 30 2011 19:45 jjhchsc2 wrote:
are the builds on liquipedia outdated?
I am going to try and switch to zerg from terran (plat)
any standard builds?
i know zvt 15 hatch 14 pool - but i dont know when to get gas/lair.
Zvz absolutely no idea.
zvp 14pool speedling expand or overpool like sc1?
what are the main thought behind each matchup
eg in tvz attack at like 6-7mins with marines to force lings then double drop 1-1 ups at 10mins then 3-5 tank push at 12mins while expanding if not beforehand.
at ZvT 15 hatch you can place pool down around 16 if you know there isnt any 2 rax pressure, this is more economical, I dont comment on gas or lair timings as this depends about the build what are you going. ZvZ 14 gas 14 pool most basic and most safe, first 100 gas get speed and take one drone off from gas if you scout enemy still minign gas after his first 100 gas, place down baneling nest and get few defensive banelings. Again this is most standard and everything what I can pretty much say with out knowing your playstyle or build. ZvP I do 14 gas 14 pool and maps where protoss normally dont forge fast expand, so I can put some pressure when he tries to take expand and have possibility to do raoch ling all in. On maps where its likely and standard for protoss to go for FFE go for 15 pool 15 hatch and get fast third before second quuen. Hope my European diamond knowledge is enough for Korean Plat Thanks! Lol i am prob like bronze zerg. Need to get into habit of injects and creep spread. What unit compositions do i need against each race? And when do i get lair for zvt assuming standard muta doubling
There is few ways to do this:
Fast muta: players like Ret favours this, dont pull your drones from gas after you get ling speed and just build lair soon as you got second 100 gas, while lair is morphing throw down baneling nest, take all gasses around 40 supply, once the lair is finished get spire. This is the part where most ppl fail with this style, you need to scout and find out if terran is going for 9 minutes push, if they do dont just save all the gas for mutas, build some banelings and get baneling speed, most important thing is always to avoid engaging too early, keep making units untill terran is shooting your hatcheries or drones and then attack, try to surround with lings so marines cant pull back and just hit with banelings. If terran isnt going for 9 minute push, you are safe to make mutas and take your third, with good multi tasking and muta micro you should be able to just break terrans back securing you a easy win in later stages of the game..
ZvZ composition is all about what you scout, Roaches, lings and banelings are really strong so you dont want to rush into lair, scouting is important also, if your lair finishes much faster than your opponents its good idea to get fast infestors or mutas, wich give you the control of the game. Upgrades are important. Against muta go for hydras or infestors and few spores at bases.
ZvP there is several viable mixes of units such as ling/baneling/muta , roach/hydra/corruptor, Roach/infestor/corruptor into fast broodlords, roach/ling/infestor. Many pros prefer diffrent styles so I would say that current meta game with ZvP is pretty unknown and cuz of that it might bring problems for many players.
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On December 01 2011 01:58 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 20:23 jjhchsc2 wrote:On November 30 2011 19:56 Roynalf wrote:On November 30 2011 19:45 jjhchsc2 wrote:
are the builds on liquipedia outdated?
I am going to try and switch to zerg from terran (plat)
any standard builds?
i know zvt 15 hatch 14 pool - but i dont know when to get gas/lair.
Zvz absolutely no idea.
zvp 14pool speedling expand or overpool like sc1?
what are the main thought behind each matchup
eg in tvz attack at like 6-7mins with marines to force lings then double drop 1-1 ups at 10mins then 3-5 tank push at 12mins while expanding if not beforehand.
at ZvT 15 hatch you can place pool down around 16 if you know there isnt any 2 rax pressure, this is more economical, I dont comment on gas or lair timings as this depends about the build what are you going. ZvZ 14 gas 14 pool most basic and most safe, first 100 gas get speed and take one drone off from gas if you scout enemy still minign gas after his first 100 gas, place down baneling nest and get few defensive banelings. Again this is most standard and everything what I can pretty much say with out knowing your playstyle or build. ZvP I do 14 gas 14 pool and maps where protoss normally dont forge fast expand, so I can put some pressure when he tries to take expand and have possibility to do raoch ling all in. On maps where its likely and standard for protoss to go for FFE go for 15 pool 15 hatch and get fast third before second quuen. Hope my European diamond knowledge is enough for Korean Plat Thanks! Lol i am prob like bronze zerg. Need to get into habit of injects and creep spread. What unit compositions do i need against each race? And when do i get lair for zvt assuming standard muta doubling There is few ways to do this: Fast muta: players like Ret favours this, dont pull your drones from gas after you get ling speed and just build lair soon as you got second 100 gas, while lair is morphing throw down baneling nest, take all gasses around 40 supply, once the lair is finished get spire. This is the part where most ppl fail with this style, you need to scout and find out if terran is going for 9 minutes push, if they do dont just save all the gas for mutas, build some banelings and get baneling speed, most important thing is always to avoid engaging too early, keep making units untill terran is shooting your hatcheries or drones and then attack, try to surround with lings so marines cant pull back and just hit with banelings. If terran isnt going for 9 minute push, you are safe to make mutas and take your third, with good multi tasking and muta micro you should be able to just break terrans back securing you a easy win in later stages of the game.. ZvZ composition is all about what you scout, Roaches, lings and banelings are really strong so you dont want to rush into lair, scouting is important also, if your lair finishes much faster than your opponents its good idea to get fast infestors or mutas, wich give you the control of the game. Upgrades are important. Against muta go for hydras or infestors and few spores at bases. ZvP there is several viable mixes of units such as ling/baneling/muta , roach/hydra/corruptor, Roach/infestor/corruptor into fast broodlords, roach/ling/infestor. Many pros prefer diffrent styles so I would say that current meta game with ZvP is pretty unknown and cuz of that it might bring problems for many players.
Ret's style seems like sc1 style.
do i still a few mutas if he is going for 9min push? when do i make my first spine?
i will try out zvp...
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Roaches in ZvT. I've seen them...I've seen Sheth in particular do it. I'm kinda familiar with his build. Losira used to do it.
What happened to 'em?? I've been trying it on ladder lately and, quite frankly, I lose every time, mainly because I don't understand how it works.
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On December 01 2011 15:05 Amaterasu1234 wrote:
Roaches in ZvT. I've seen them...I've seen Sheth in particular do it. I'm kinda familiar with his build. Losira used to do it.
What happened to 'em?? I've been trying it on ladder lately and, quite frankly, I lose every time, mainly because I don't understand how it works.
You'd be shocked how much 4 or so roaches slows down your tech as a zerg. You really can't make them until your lair has started, otherwise you delay your spire too much and a marine tank push becomes pretty scary without mutas. I don't like em unless I'm facing an absurd amount of hellions, then and only then will I build them.
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On December 01 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 15:05 Amaterasu1234 wrote:
Roaches in ZvT. I've seen them...I've seen Sheth in particular do it. I'm kinda familiar with his build. Losira used to do it.
What happened to 'em?? I've been trying it on ladder lately and, quite frankly, I lose every time, mainly because I don't understand how it works. You'd be shocked how much 4 or so roaches slows down your tech as a zerg. You really can't make them until your lair has started, otherwise you delay your spire too much and a marine tank push becomes pretty scary without mutas. I don't like em unless I'm facing an absurd amount of hellions, then and only then will I build them.
I would not agree so much. Trying to transition quickly to mutas after roaches is kind of missing the idea behind roaches. Basically with early roaches, what you trade is gas (and therefore tech) for map control. As a consequence, roaches are interesting only if you take a third with them early. I personnally build 7 or 8 of them, to put pressure on the terran (preventing any quick natural basically) while taking my third: sheth style.
What you can't do (in my opinion) is rushing to mutas with this, as it will cripple your economy. Instead you should delay them, stay on one gas for a very long time, while saturating mineral in your three bases (which is your advantage compared to a 2 base zerg). To defend early pushes, you can rely on pure upgraded lings. This is why I would also recommend a quick macro hatch (a bit after you take your third). You will be surprised how well mass lings defend against tank/marine early pushes.
to give a brief BO idea : 15 hatch/ 17 pool/ 17 gas/ 27 roach warren/ 28 7 roaches/ 44 when roaches pop out, go put pressure, while upgrading speedling and taking third/ then drone drone drone, when you have 250 gas, start melee and carapace +1 upgrade, and around 60/65 food, make a round or two of zerglings just for safety, and killing rocks. make a macro hatch as soon as you start piling up minerals.
(of course all this is against bio terran; vs blue flame helion mech, you have to transition out of this to mass roaches).
low master with reasonable winrate in zvt
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Since I am still in silver league, please apologize my obviously very simplified view of the game. I also have great holes in my play when it comes to scouting.
I would like to introduce early roaches in my ZvT and ZvP. But going roach very early feels like a big commitment. My overall game plan in both ZvT and ZvP is to deny or at least delay his third as long as possible – while I saturate 2 bases and then go 3-base. Normally I use speedlings (versus a lot of marines I add banelings) to survive while I drone up on two bases. I consider speedlings with spine/spore support cost-effective in terms of minerals, but it uses up so many larvae.
I am a bit unsure if I should try to work on speedling / crawlers to stay alive or if I should try to perfect the use of early roaches to defend. When I try, I normally fail horribly as the opponent went air. I am also asking myself if the real issue is not the roach question but rather my lair timing. I normally begin the lair upgrade around the 7 minute mark so I have very few tech choices until then.
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On December 01 2011 19:44 [F_]aths wrote:
Since I am still in silver league, please apologize my obviously very simplified view of the game. I also have great holes in my play when it comes to scouting.
I would like to introduce early roaches in my ZvT and ZvP. But going roach very early feels like a big commitment. My overall game plan in both ZvT and ZvP is to deny or at least delay his third as long as possible – while I saturate 2 bases and then go 3-base. Normally I use speedlings (versus a lot of marines I add banelings) to survive while I drone up on two bases. I consider speedlings with spine/spore support cost-effective in terms of minerals, but it uses up so many larvae.
I am a bit unsure if I should try to work on speedling / crawlers to stay alive or if I should try to perfect the use of early roaches to defend. When I try, I normally fail horribly as the opponent went air. I am also asking myself if the real issue is not the roach question but rather my lair timing. I normally begin the lair upgrade around the 7 minute mark so I have very few tech choices until then.
Yes I shall contribute.
The problem you're experiencing is actually answered by yourself. The usage of roaches in early defense, barring allins, are strictly reactionary. You need great intel in order to maximize the damage you're doing with them. For example, they're useful versus aggressive plays where zerglings could not succeed, such as zealot heavy 4 gate and mass hellion openings. It's true that they cost less larvae, but also consider the cost of gas and the drones you need to mine the gas with as well as the additional tech path. Roach openings will slow down your overall game and it should be considered as a deviation from your original build that needs to be cost effective or it'll come back to bite you later on. It's sort of like 3 gate expanding instead of 1 gate expanding, except the roaches don't build up energy and become useful later on.
Standard roach openings are usually built on aggressive pressuring, or good reads versus a hellion terran and play defensive with few roaches. Early roaches are also really slow, consider them hydras before speed is done.
I would suggest avoiding roaches unless necessary. Ling spine queen is the way to go to save the gas. It may cost more larva in the end, but in the case that the opponent never attacked you would still be mining with the drones instead of turning them into defensive structures. Focus on establishing an economy while gunning for the lair tech of your choice. Lair timing is your choice. Be sure to understand that late lair means that you should, and must, have a larger economy and vice versa. Notice the trade offs that must happen within the game mechanics.
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On December 01 2011 19:44 [F_]aths wrote:
Since I am still in silver league, please apologize my obviously very simplified view of the game. I also have great holes in my play when it comes to scouting.
I would like to introduce early roaches in my ZvT and ZvP. But going roach very early feels like a big commitment. My overall game plan in both ZvT and ZvP is to deny or at least delay his third as long as possible – while I saturate 2 bases and then go 3-base. Normally I use speedlings (versus a lot of marines I add banelings) to survive while I drone up on two bases. I consider speedlings with spine/spore support cost-effective in terms of minerals, but it uses up so many larvae.
I am a bit unsure if I should try to work on speedling / crawlers to stay alive or if I should try to perfect the use of early roaches to defend. When I try, I normally fail horribly as the opponent went air. I am also asking myself if the real issue is not the roach question but rather my lair timing. I normally begin the lair upgrade around the 7 minute mark so I have very few tech choices until then.
Hi, I'm a Gold level Zerg and I think I have faced similar problems before. I initially went Roach for defence as well but as I started to hit Gold level players (when I was Bronze/Silver), I found that often times, some players would want to force you to make Roaches so that they can tech switch to air. Terrans do this especially well because Hellions are pure mineral units. By using Hellions to harass your expo / mineral line, he's pretty much trying to get you to make Roaches (and using up your valuable GAS). Then he can tech switch easily to stuff like cloaked Banshees or Marauders to absolutely roll you over.
I began using lings to scout, harass and deny expos a lot and spines to defend after I realised I was getting gamed pretty hard. I brushed up my macro / larvae inject timings and went for a heavier queen / spore crawler approach to defend early air attacks from Banshees / Void Rays and it seems to have worked pretty well. Although all those costs minerals, with good enough saturation on 2 base you can get at least 2 spores and 2 queens per base at the 8th minute mark. Keep in mind this is only if I have scouted a possible air play tech switch with my ovie before hand. If there's no air play then I'll just build lings whenever I get pressured and the most important thing is not to lose lings early on. Lings die easily and cost a lot of larvae, but with a good sense of when to engage, you can save a lot of lings.
About lair timing, I generally get my lair when:
1) My saturation is good on both my main and natural (i expand at 20/21 if I go pool first and at 14 or 15 if I go hatch first btw)
and
2) It is safe to do so. How to determine when it's safe to do so pretty much depends on how well you can scout his base. Generally if there's no push coming in sight (both macroing like mad), I won't mind taking an early lair after condition 1 is satisfied. If there's constant pressure, I'll prioritise ling speed and lings before getting the lair upgrade. No point spending 150 minerals on the lair and get rolled because I didn't have enough lings.
Note: That said, if you've spent all your larvae and have extra minerals left and you don't want or already have a macro hatch, get the lair.
or
3) If I want to go for a very big muta ball in a short amount of time, I'll generally delay the lair till I have about 600-700 (pretty arbitrary tbh) gas before I start the upgrade. Once that is done and the spire is done, I'll probably have a ton of gas to mass a big ball of mutas pretty quick.
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TL;DR
I use speedlings on offence and spines/spores/queens on defence.
Lair timing varies from game to game - I have no fixed lair timing.
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Hi, diamond zerg here, what is the best follow up to 15hatch in ZvZ? ive tried 15h 14p 17g, and 15h 16g 15p, but i constantly lose to ling/baneling all ins. Do i get queens first or lings?
Thanks in advance
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On December 02 2011 09:19 dogcore wrote:
Hi, diamond zerg here, what is the best follow up to 15hatch in ZvZ? ive tried 15h 14p 17g, and 15h 16g 15p, but i constantly lose to ling/baneling all ins. Do i get queens first or lings?
Thanks in advance
if u wanna hard counter 14/14 ling bane just go 15hat 15pool 16gas roach den when pool finishes make lings until 22 supply( you can sneak in some drones here if u think)
make ovies so u have 22/36 supply
when roach den finishes, 7 roach-> then get speedling for lings.
build is very simple just sit near a ramp and defend
otherwise defensive banes with a spine 2 queens blocking ramp etc
to clone drones(ie split them up 1 by 1) hit stop on all your workers and indivually f1 and click them all into different locations. it's rather fast
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Spec, mrGRAPE, thank you for your input.
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On December 01 2011 01:14 Macpo wrote:First, I would say: enjoy your problems, this is the way to improve Second, I am afraid there is no big easy solution to fix macro. Maybe a few things though: - make sure you have a correct hotkey set up, which enables you to macro correctly. I am saying this, because I have myself been sticking too long to a bad hotkey set up (with no global hatch hotkey; or with only 2 hotkeys for units, etc). This doesn't mean there is one and only one hotkey set up; but some are definitely better than others. it's kind of frustrating to change a hotkey set up, but once it's done, it's really helpful. concerning hotkeys, you may want to hotkey certain key buildings like one hatch, or tech buildings, to check regularly if they need your intervention. Personnally, I have one hatch on 7, a key tech on 8 (like spawning pool, infestation pit, spire, etc. and 9 on evolution chambers, so that I can see when i need to inject, tech, upgrade. But I have to admit, I find this terribly difficult to do during the course of the game. But eventually, it is supposed to improve the sharpness of your timings. - things you can check in replays are: do you pile up money? do you forget tech? do you get supply blocked? do you miss injects? etc. But just checking this, and saying "ok I will never go beyond 1000 minerals ever in a game" is kind of useless I feel. More interesting would be to ask yourself when does this happen? you will probably realise that the moment you tend to forget things is often the same (during fights, but not only). Then, fixing up macro becomes a bit easier, as you become specific in what is wrong with your macro: not "think about macro all game long"; but rather: "at this time, I can't forget to [inject/make overlord/tech/spend drones]". (like "at 62 food, I can't get supply blocked" or "when I have two saturated bases, at around 60 food, I always start pilling money up, so I should throw down another hatch" or "past first mid game engagement at min 10 vs P, I forget teching" etc. Then, little by little you fix things in your macro, because you are precisely aware of where your flows are. I really think that's better than swearing you won't forget anything again. my 2 cent low master advice
Thanks very much, this is actually really helpful ; a nice way to help me think through , cheers macpo
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Im sorry if there is already this question but Do not or do the extractor trick ?
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On December 04 2011 16:03 NIIINO wrote:
Im sorry if there is already this question but Do not or do the extractor trick ?
Do not, 9 overlord is best economic opener.
Hi, diamond zerg here, what is the best follow up to 15hatch in ZvZ? ive tried 15h 14p 17g, and 15h 16g 15p, but i constantly lose to ling/baneling all ins. Do i get queens first or lings?
Thanks in advance
I get both queens but I get a baneling nest with my first 100/50 after both queens are out over ling speed. I am defensive early and don't like all inning early game so this is what I do and it works perfect vs ling all ins and ling/bane all ins
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Hi All, I've been having trouble with this specific terran build of late. I felt I played this better than most of my games against this, yet still lost very soundly. I think that I could have hit my injects better and pulled back my natural queen to inject more often, but other than I'm not sure. +1 carapace, perhaps?
Thanks!
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Do you guys have any tips on making mutas work against zerg and protoss?
Against zerg, I never really know how to secure expansions after going spire, as it seems like my opponents just have a huge ground army. Does this mean that I'm getting mutas too late?
Against protoss, it's not even surviving gateway timings, I just never know what else I should be doing besides making mutas. Should I be really greedy with my expansions? Should I be focusing on ground upgrades at all? I've had a couple games where toss seems to stay on 2 base and mass colossus/stalker/archon and not even my mass spines can hold it...
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EPT
