EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 129
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VaderZerg
United States17 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
Anyways, I'm trying to learn this style, but I'm still not quite sure how to deal with hellions. Korean zergs don't seem to get roaches, and hold hellions with lings/spines/queens. Any idea on when to get my gas for speed? It seems necessary to have speed to 'catch' the hellions if they attempt a run-by. Also, is there a certain point where you need to go roaches (say like 8-10 hellions?), it's kind of hard to tell what terran is doing since reactor hellion opening takes away map control...how can I get a better idea about what terran does when they have map control? Thanks~~~ | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On December 18 2011 04:48 KimJongChill wrote: Hey guys, I've noticed that many korean zergs favor a two base muta build against terran. They seem to sit on two base with a third macro hatch and use the production to kill tank timings before going into muta. Anyways, I'm trying to learn this style, but I'm still not quite sure how to deal with hellions. Korean zergs don't seem to get roaches, and hold hellions with lings/spines/queens. Any idea on when to get my gas for speed? It seems necessary to have speed to 'catch' the hellions if they attempt a run-by. Also, is there a certain point where you need to go roaches (say like 8-10 hellions?), it's kind of hard to tell what terran is doing since reactor hellion opening takes away map control...how can I get a better idea about what terran does when they have map control? Thanks~~~ hi! First it's hard to defend against helions in the beginning. Not later than this morning, DRG lost a game merely because about 6 helions (or so) got into his based and was harassed to death... You need to have speed to catch helions with zerglings for sure. you can take your gas around 17 and make speed when you have your first 100 gas. also, stay on creep with zerglings, don't go away, as they run a bit slower then, and won't be able to catch the helions. you want to constrict space with evolution chambers and macro hatch. Some player don't switch to roaches at all, even when there is 8 or 10 helions (I am thinking of stephano here) , you can add queens spines, zerglings, etc, until mutas or infestors are out. But you can swith to roaches too (I personnally prefer to defend with roaches always). to know what happens, you can send couple of zerglings, an overlord , and above all and mainly, just deduction (he has 10 helions, therefore, he either has 2 factories or no tanks pretty likely, and siege may be delayed, ; or "timing for banshees is over, i don't have to worry about this too much", etc. my two cent advice  | ||
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TheSydeffect
United States23 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
On December 18 2011 05:40 TheSydeffect wrote: I go speedling expand against toss. When a toss goes FFE I just drone up so much and take a third. My question is what should i drone up to if scout a gateway push I go 70+ drones should this be at 60? It depends what kind of push! if you mean like a 6/7/8 gateway push out of two bases, like before min 10, my rule of thumb is to drone until gateways are finished, (more than a specific amount of drones). For instance, if gateways are half way done, don't start units then; you can still make drones. But this depends a bit wether you found and killed his proxy pylons. If you didn't, maybe start units a bit before his gates are finished... | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On December 18 2011 05:13 Macpo wrote: hi! First it's hard to defend against helions in the beginning. Not later than this morning, DRG lost a game merely because about 6 helions (or so) got into his based and was harassed to death... You need to have speed to catch helions with zerglings for sure. you can take your gas around 17 and make speed when you have your first 100 gas. also, stay on creep with zerglings, don't go away, as they run a bit slower then, and won't be able to catch the helions. you want to constrict space with evolution chambers and macro hatch. Some player don't switch to roaches at all, even when there is 8 or 10 helions (I am thinking of stephano here) , you can add queens spines, zerglings, etc, until mutas or infestors are out. But you can swith to roaches too (I personnally prefer to defend with roaches always). to know what happens, you can send couple of zerglings, an overlord , and above all and mainly, just deduction (he has 10 helions, therefore, he either has 2 factories or no tanks pretty likely, and siege may be delayed, ; or "timing for banshees is over, i don't have to worry about this too much", etc. my two cent advice wow okay, that was exactly what I was looking for haha, thanks. I guess the worst thing for me is the hellions denying map control, since it makes me really uncomfortable as a zerg to be so totally blind and not know if a big push is coming, etc. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Masters Zerg. I have a really, really hard time against 1/3 gate sentry expands. Obviously, I don't open gas because of the prevalence of FFE so can't deny 1 gate expands, but irregardless, I just have a ton of trouble against 1/3 gate sentry expands. I think it's impossible to get a third before lair against such expands, and as such, it just becomes 2 base vs 2 base, which you lose, right? My current game plan against 3 gate sentry expands, is just go like 2 base 1 gas roach/ling, enough to make sure his zealot/sentry/stalker army wouldn't kill me or deny my 3rd, then around 8-9:00 I suppose I take my third, keep droning up, and just mass roach/ling and don't make a lair anytime soon. but if he gets lots and lots of sentries it's pretty easy for him to FF me off, and he can get blink or SG or robo and prevent me from preventing his third with hatch tech roach/ling (whereas against FFE you can definitely do so). I suppose I'd say I'm very comfortable against FFE, but not 1/3 gate sentry expand, but I treat thems ort of similar - no lair for a super long time, just roach/ling, drone up, etc. I guess the difference is agaisnt 1/3gate expands is I make a ton of units before grabbing third. But they can totally contain you and such >< Maybe I should go for macro hatch before third? Not sure. Anyways, afterwards I go roach/banelingrain/infestor, depending if they go SG or blink (infestors), or more sentries and robo (baneling). This doesn't work well on maps like XNC because then it's jsut 3 base vs 3 base then 4 base vs 4 base and I get mined out and the 5th becomes impossible and you lose, but I suppose XNC shouldn't really be considered an honest map... it's just where 1/3gate expands happen most often. | ||
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Dyn
United States5 Posts
On December 18 2011 04:38 VaderZerg wrote: I have a question about building placement against protoss and terran. I know you're suppose to use evos and roach warren/ baneling nest to make it difficult for hellions to run by, but where should I put the spawning pool against terran. And where should I put any of my buildings against protoss. Hey, personally I find right next to the hatch, towards the ramp works best for me. Definitely avoid behind the mineral lines as it creates pockets for drops that make them really difficult to kill. Also, if its next to the hatch but towards the edge of the base, it becomes a drop target. | ||
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
1. When is the best time to take the 3rd base? I find that abt 11 mins after initial harrasment is done, I can take one but if the terran/toss push out with a marine tank or stalker zealot its over.. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 18 2011 16:03 vahgar.r24 wrote: Gold Zerg here 1. When is the best time to take the 3rd base? I find that abt 11 mins after initial harrasment is done, I can take one but if the terran/toss push out with a marine tank or stalker zealot its over.. It depends, but the general rule is when you attack, you expand. So right before harassment starts you get it because the opponent will be stuck in his base defending your harassment. It's the easiest time to expand and not lose it. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On December 18 2011 16:03 vahgar.r24 wrote: Gold Zerg here 1. When is the best time to take the 3rd base? I find that abt 11 mins after initial harrasment is done, I can take one but if the terran/toss push out with a marine tank or stalker zealot its over.. It completely depends on mu and the other players opening, but as a rule of thumb, you tan cake a 3rd when you have a) made sure the opponent has taken his natural, b) map control. Some examples against the most common openings: Against a FE protoss, you can take it before your 2nd queen @4:30 if you want as he will have no offensive options that early. Against a hellion expand terran, you can take it after you've killed/chased away his initial hellions. | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
Is there a quick technique for creep spreading instead of just manualy clicking the minimap and selecting tumors? | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It depends, but the general rule is when you attack, you expand. So right before harassment starts you get it because the opponent will be stuck in his base defending your harassment. It's the easiest time to expand and not lose it. I know day9 used to say "expand behind pressure", but recently I think people have said that this is actually said this is a bad idea. Tastosis I think said it best when they said "you can't have your cake and eat it too". I forget what game they said it during... MLG or something I think. Either dedicate to an attack, or expand. Like if you are zerg, for example, you should be making either drones, or units, for the most part. Making a bunch of units to go pressure so you can expand behind hurts the economy too much - you want to be expanding as much as possible, and in general only be making enough units to defend, at the very last moment, until you have 80 drones and 4 bases. T/P is a little different, but for Zerg, yea, don't do that. I mean if you have units, as in speedlings or speedroaches (never push out with only slowroaches), you SHOULD be active with them, but don't make an abundance of units (abundance meaning more than it minimally takes to barely hold off any possible push) for the sole purpose of creating pressure so you can expand. Zerg isn't exactly the race that is trying to contain others - you only do so if you had to create a bunch of units to stave off certain pressure. I suppose a certain exception is denying the protoss third if you went fast third yourself - you are sort of forced to make a bunch of units though due to the imperfections of hatch tech scouting. To be more specific about your question though: Against Terran, around 55-65 supply you want to be making a macro hatch. If you can confirm Terran is taking a third, or if the map has a very easily defended third or super long rush distances (or general all-around confidence, like you know they won't have an army due to a failed banshee rush or 2 rax, or simply just confidence), then you can make that macro hatch a third instead. But after making that macro hatch, you only really take the third against terran after you hold off their push or know you can (sometimes they start bunkering outside your base, but you know they can't push in so you just take your third) or if they are taking their third. Against Protoss... you should be taking your third around 30 supply against FFE, and you should always be taking a third before making a lair. Interesting note, Lair generally cuts your supply by about 20. You can pretty much hold any 2 base timing from Protoss with roach/ling. Against 1 base opening like 1/3 gate expand, you will have to create a bunch of roach/ling off of 2 base 1 gas before getting that third, but still, you want to get a third before lair against protoss unless you are doing an all-in. Against Zerg, you just want to always take your third before lair, unless they are going 2 base hatch tech roach/ling all-in, in which case you just go 2 base lair. Is there a quick technique for creep spreading instead of just manualy clicking the minimap and selecting tumors? Hotkey forward creep tumors. Every time you larva inject, doubletap that hotkey, spread them, and remap the new tumors with Ctrl+# so next time you doubletap it, the camera refocuses on those forward tumors. I don't always do this, and I don't know if pros do that - usually you just spread the tumors through the course of the game, like any time you are looking at your army or rally points or moving your army forward, you box over the tumors or ctrl+click them to select every tumor and push them forward. Anyone got any feedback on the question I posed in regards to 1/3 gate sentry expands being really difficult to deal with, imo harder to deal with than FFE? | ||
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Narfinger
53 Posts
Should I stick to my strategy with few hydras or something different and what is the current standard composition against that? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Zerglings stop working after around 140ish supply due to 4+ colossi or HT. Having a pure ling/banelingrain/infestor army without roaches gets torn apart by aoe in lategame, so you have to turn all the lings into banes around 150 supply and start adding on roaches. To really use banelingrain though, you need infestors, just 1-4, not many, but you need them so they don't kite you and blink and FF and storm and run away, I'm not sure how you did baneling rain without them although just ling/banelingrain or roach/banelingrain is quite good against non-blink without colossi armies, ie earlier in the game. So the more stargate units that exist, or more stalkers, the more infestors you add on. If Protoss has double robo colossi, or lots of stargate units, I'll add a spire on and just add corruptors with the army (i usually just keep them in the hotkey with my roaches even). The old deathball of Vr/Colossi though, you generally beat with pure corruptor/infestor. So when you see the opponent kind of moving into that, you start pumping some corruptors. You should've made more infestors when you saw the stargate. I think, besides hive tech, that's the only way to deal with VR/Colossi shenanigans. | ||
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MooSlapper
United States113 Posts
I am a Toss/Teran player who has just ventured into the realm of Zerg. So--- I need to know some VERY basic builds here. So--- I understand if u r not fast pooling, you are hatch firsting at 15 or doing a pool from 12-15, right? So, is 12 like for fast aggression and 15 the most economic choice? I Feel like getting the pool earlier would get you a faster queen, thus getting you more drones, adn being more economical? If true, shouldn't you always get a fast poo? What food do you get hatch after the pool? Can someone tell me some basic builds that get the pool relatively good and sets up for an econmical/safe opening? Would, say, 13 pool 16 hatch be good? So many choices, don't know which is best. | ||
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
On December 19 2011 19:39 MooSlapper wrote: Hello, I am a Toss/Teran player who has just ventured into the realm of Zerg. So--- I need to know some VERY basic builds here. So--- I understand if u r not fast pooling, you are hatch firsting at 15 or doing a pool from 12-15, right? So, is 12 like for fast aggression and 15 the most economic choice? I Feel like getting the pool earlier would get you a faster queen, thus getting you more drones, adn being more economical? If true, shouldn't you always get a fast poo? What food do you get hatch after the pool? Can someone tell me some basic builds that get the pool relatively good and sets up for an econmical/safe opening? Would, say, 13 pool 16 hatch be good? So many choices, don't know which is best. 14 pool 15 hatch Vs Protoss 15 hatch 15 pool vs terran 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool vs zerg although a 14gas 14pool is more standard and easier to learn with zerg all-in being so common. Further questions I do free lessons for zerg which you can find here http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=293533 | ||
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OmegaKnetus
Germany431 Posts
I generally do fine against protoss and zerg, but I have a problem with a particular terran composition: He opens reactor hellion expand, but with two reactor factories. I try to drone up as much as possible and defend with 1 - 2 spines and ~4 roaches. He masses something like 12 hellions and denies scouting. Behind his hellion pressure he gets a lot of marines and 2 tanks and attacks and drops at the same time once stim finishes. Now this is the problem: I can't take a third too early cause the hellions either deny the expand or fry my natural once my roaches chase them. Also I don't know which unit composition to get: Lings get shut down hard by blue flame, while a roach heavy comp just melts to the marines, while helllions tank the damage. If I go quick mutas he just kills me. Any suggestions on that one (He keeps producing hellions throughout the game off of one reactor factory if needed) | ||
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
On December 19 2011 20:22 OmegaKnetus wrote: Hello I'm a former diamond league terran and switched to zerg. I generally do fine against protoss and zerg, but I have a problem with a particular terran composition: He opens reactor hellion expand, but with two reactor factories. I try to drone up as much as possible and defend with 1 - 2 spines and ~4 roaches. He masses something like 12 hellions and denies scouting. Behind his hellion pressure he gets a lot of marines and 2 tanks and attacks and drops at the same time once stim finishes. Now this is the problem: I can't take a third too early cause the hellions either deny the expand or fry my natural once my roaches chase them. Also I don't know which unit composition to get: Lings get shut down hard by blue flame, while a roach heavy comp just melts to the marines, while helllions tank the damage. If I go quick mutas he just kills me. Any suggestions on that one (He keeps producing hellions throughout the game off of one reactor factory if needed) This build from terran is seemingly impossible given how much information you are denied including creep spread and a 3rd (hellion OP ^^) there are a few solutions with varying success which I will outline and you can choose. Option 1. Delay spire until the push is over but get fast burrow plus bane speed and go for some flanks and mindgames (hard to execute) Option 2. Use your same muta timing off 2 base but in place of Muta go for infestor, Fungal deals with just about everything well the tank count is low but map and light contains can make this difficult ( So so to execute ) Option 3 and most 1A friendly is a mass roach build getting a fast plus 1 missile attack and roach speed. Also helps out if you do this blind and you opponent goes for mech as you don't waste money of lings/ muta. Also you want OL speed/drops in this build to stay alive into mid/late game (easy to execute ) The perk here is that all these options are helped a lot with burrow, a moderately timed lair, and 1 evo for the upgrade of your choice so they are interchangeable. Further questions I do free lessons for zerg which you can find here http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=293533 | ||
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