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On December 19 2011 20:39 Parodoxx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 20:22 OmegaKnetus wrote:
Hello I'm a former diamond league terran and switched to zerg.
I generally do fine against protoss and zerg, but I have a problem with a particular terran composition:
He opens reactor hellion expand, but with two reactor factories. I try to drone up as much as possible and defend with 1 - 2 spines and ~4 roaches.
He masses something like 12 hellions and denies scouting.
Behind his hellion pressure he gets a lot of marines and 2 tanks and attacks and drops at the same time once stim finishes.
Now this is the problem:
I can't take a third too early cause the hellions either deny the expand or fry my natural once my roaches chase them.
Also I don't know which unit composition to get: Lings get shut down hard by blue flame, while a roach heavy comp just melts to the marines, while helllions tank the damage.
If I go quick mutas he just kills me.
Any suggestions on that one
(He keeps producing hellions throughout the game off of one reactor factory if needed) This build from terran is seemingly impossible given how much information you are denied including creep spread and a 3rd (hellion OP ^^) there are a few solutions with varying success which I will outline and you can choose. Option 1. Delay spire until the push is over but get fast burrow plus bane speed and go for some flanks and mindgames (hard to execute) Option 2. Use your same muta timing off 2 base but in place of Muta go for infestor, Fungal deals with just about everything well the tank count is low but map and light contains can make this difficult ( So so to execute ) Option 3 and most 1A friendly is a mass roach build getting a fast plus 1 missile attack and roach speed. Also helps out if you do this blind and you opponent goes for mech as you don't waste money of lings/ muta. Also you want OL speed/drops in this build to stay alive into mid/late game (easy to execute ) The perk here is that all these options are helped a lot with burrow, a moderately timed lair, and 1 evo for the upgrade of your choice so they are interchangeable. Further questions I do free lessons for zerg which you can find here http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=293533
Thanks for the quick response!
I tried to do something similar to your third point (two evos and mass roaches) and pushed him back somewhat, but lost later on. I'll definitely try your suggestions THanks alot!
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In ZvT how do you deal with mech? I've tried going straight muta to get map control back and secure a 3rd, but they can't do damage and then I get all-inned with a lot of Thors and Tanks that my roach/muta composition can't handle. I've tried Brood Lords, but they just die to thors and the roaches/mutas I use to support them melt too quickly. Am I supposed to do some sort of roach attack timing to trade units? I'm never able to deny a third for very long due to seige tanks/thors.
In ZvP how do you deal with players who just make a few sentries and then basically max on blink stalkers and immortals? Typically they throw in 2-4 colossi and their army becomes unkillable. I know infestors would help, but roach/infestor hasn't been very effective and if I don't do an aggressive attack before they get a 3rd base I am maxed with a mediocre army too fast and too many drones, so I can't produce more units or switch into Brood Lords without sacrificing something. I am extremely lost in this matchup, I only win when I hold a cheese/all-in and have a huge advantage.
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What do you think would be the best approach when you have on matchup that is considerably worse than the others?
Since I got promoted to diamond about 10 days ago, I'm 15-13 in zvz, 12-8 in zvp, but only 7-18 in zvt, which continues a trend, but if anything is even more exaggerated (especially since "all-of-a-sudden-terrans-everywhere" :p).
I feel like every time I play a zvt, my opponents are so much better than me at the matchup due to my relative success in the other matchups, that I have a hard time learning. Basically, the only time I win a zvt is when my opponent does something wildly non-standard that if I defend, let's me get way ahead.
Do you think I need to find a T practice partner, or is there some relatively safe build I might not know about that will let me "gently" learn the ways of zvt on ladder?
Edit: Just to make clear, I know I completely suck at zvt, it's on me to get better, so no need to worry about this being a qq post.
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does anyone have the numbers through 60 food when you generally should make overlords ?
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On December 20 2011 09:03 ToguRo wrote:
does anyone have the numbers through 60 food when you generally should make overlords ?
I think that heavily depends on what units you're making, how many hatches/queens you have, income, etc.
I mean, generally speaking, you want to build overlords so that when the next spawn larvae pops, you can at least morph so many larvae that your hatches continue to produce larvae naturally.
I don't think there's a build-independent answer to that. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong and learn something. 
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On December 20 2011 09:03 ToguRo wrote:
does anyone have the numbers through 60 food when you generally should make overlords ?
I have a 3-10-20 rule on supply.
Early game, I make it a point to add supply 3 supplies before current limit, say 17/20 and not more or less. Less, then I know its not efficient coz its money better spent on econ or army. More, then I know production will be late. Midgame, I supply at 10 before max. Then lategame, 20.
Of course Im terran, but when I offrace to zerg or even toss, it also seems like a natural rule to follow
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On December 19 2011 22:32 oOOoOphidian wrote:
In ZvT how do you deal with mech? I've tried going straight muta to get map control back and secure a 3rd, but they can't do damage and then I get all-inned with a lot of Thors and Tanks that my roach/muta composition can't handle. I've tried Brood Lords, but they just die to thors and the roaches/mutas I use to support them melt too quickly. Am I supposed to do some sort of roach attack timing to trade units? I'm never able to deny a third for very long due to seige tanks/thors.
In ZvP how do you deal with players who just make a few sentries and then basically max on blink stalkers and immortals? Typically they throw in 2-4 colossi and their army becomes unkillable. I know infestors would help, but roach/infestor hasn't been very effective and if I don't do an aggressive attack before they get a 3rd base I am maxed with a mediocre army too fast and too many drones, so I can't produce more units or switch into Brood Lords without sacrificing something. I am extremely lost in this matchup, I only win when I hold a cheese/all-in and have a huge advantage.
For ZvT in mech, i deal with it by fast upgrades with melee and ranged attacks going on at the same time. When you know they go for mech, expand once more, and attack when you feel you have enough to trade efficiently, or have enough income to trade. That's what i personally do, and also get tunneling claws and burrow and pop up onto his tanks if hes moving out, and get a surround with the lings onto the thors. I personally don't go mutas, i just tech up to Broodlords, and if you're losing Broodlords to the thors, you might need to spread them more then clumping them up. By knowing hes going mech, expand more, put spine crawlers for the hellions, with a roach or 2 to deny any runby of hellions. Not sure if that helped, but thats what I do;x
For ZvP, if he does a ffe, expand once more, get a quick third, and make sure to scout what tech route he is going. I get early +1 melee right after speed, so i can hold off any attacks easier. After establishing a 3rd base, he will have to put some sort of pressure on you, if he does not, you can max out on roaches in 11-13minutes and overrun him while teching to infestors if he does not die initally to the attack. If he doesnt ffe, you will need to keep checking his sentry count, and scout his base with an overlord, sac one if needed to see what is coming. Prepare for an attack, and if you crush it, making you ahead.
Hope that helped ;D
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^You shouldn't be able to get upgrades to deal with warp gate timings when going fast third. You get an evo chamber at 6:40-7:10 (i go for 7:00, it's never been too late for me), and +1 upgrades takes 160 seconds. That's almost 3 minutes. Add in the evo chamber making time (35 seconds), that is a little more than 3 minutes. At 10:00, any warpgate timing should have already killed you.
I would only recommend getting a quick upgrade if you can tell he's going for a blink timing, or you know he's not going to do any warp gate timing. You generally 'win' against any 2 base all-in with sheer numbers and econ, not with tech - protoss on 2 base is the one who's going to have the tech advantage. It's also a little too costly to get upgrades.
I think your #1 priority in ZvP is, after holding whatever they do, denying their third base. If they opened stargate, this may be harder, but lots of lings can surely deny it against void ray defense. Once you have a superior army advantage, and have denied their third, go for tech of choice (mutas, infestors, hive, banelingrain, etc).
To deal with ZvT mech, just expand expand expand. With your overseer made immediately when lair finishes, and you see mech, that shoudl tell you to expand right then and there. Then just mass roaches, and when you take your fourth, get an infestation pit too. Mutas can do pretty well against mech too, but only if they open with tank/hellion, which nowadays, mech players also open hellion/thor then into tanks to avoid being owned by mutas, so I don't know if you can do that anymore.
I'd also recommend *against* upgrades against mech. A tank, or a thor, is going to 3 shot roaches no matter what upgrades are, for the overwhelming most part. You can go for a few attack upgrades, and maybe carapace +1 when you go for hive, but generally, upgrades aren't particularly useful. You *really* don't want to dely your greater spire, and +1 carapace costs the same amount of gas as hive. What do you think is more important, quicker broodlords, or +1 carapace that does nothing?
does anyone have the numbers through 60 food when you generally should make overlords ?
That's around the point where you should always have an overlord making - right when one pops, another should already be started. Eventually you'll want it more 'overlapping' where when one overlord is halfway, another is started.
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Hey--- thanks paradoxx.
So ZvZ, how can you expand and survive against early zergling attacks? I find ZvZ to always early hatch and rush me. Do I need spine crawlers asap? You mentioned gas always before pool--- is this because you need speedings asap? Do speedlings beat non speedlings in a fight? It seems like it wouldn't matter since they are melee so everyting is attacking each other. Do you suggest the melee attack upgrade or the armor upgrade? I like how armor can be transitioned out of since if you go roach or hydra later you can get the melee attack.
So--- to reitterate--- how can I get a hatch so early or a pool so late, and survive against early lings?
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You need banelings. That's the only way to really deal with speedlings.
It kind of depends what the openings are, how the game is going. But if you are aiming for a macro game, it's not a bad idea at all to get banelings before speed. Speedlings rape slowlings, they get faster and better surrounds, is why they win. You can try it in unit tester, it's pretty one sided.
You don't want to get melee or carapace upgrade until after lair, really. The only upgrade that you'd really want in ZvZ is +1 ranged when your ~40-50 supply evo chamber finishes, if you plan to go roaches in mid-game.
You survive against early speedlings with banelings. I'm not really sure what kind of build you are talking about - if you go hatch first against 10 pool speedling, you will just lose, build order loss (if you cancel and go pool/gas into defensive banes and 2 inbase spines, you miiight have a chance to break even, not sure exactly, but it's pretty rough). If they go 14/14 against hatch first, or you are both going 14/14, you'll want banelings either immediately or right after you put down the expansion.
Don't just sit on 2 banelings either, you'll need to gradually increase the number as the game goes on, ie 4 banes ~30 supply, ~6 after 40.
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On December 20 2011 17:05 MooSlapper wrote:
Hey--- thanks paradoxx.
So ZvZ, how can you expand and survive against early zergling attacks? I find ZvZ to always early hatch and rush me. Do I need spine crawlers asap? You mentioned gas always before pool--- is this because you need speedings asap? Do speedlings beat non speedlings in a fight? It seems like it wouldn't matter since they are melee so everyting is attacking each other. Do you suggest the melee attack upgrade or the armor upgrade? I like how armor can be transitioned out of since if you go roach or hydra later you can get the melee attack.
So--- to reitterate--- how can I get a hatch so early or a pool so late, and survive against early lings?
Early gas is important because you want to have banelings fast. I used to go 15 pool 14 gas but after losing few games to 14gas 13 pool I changed that and the only reason were faster banelings (assuming the opponent goes to my nat ASAP and also morphs banes right as the nest is finished). Even if I run with my lings the opponent's banes were blowing on eggs of my own banes. Even if I spread the lings which were to-be-morphed into banelings it was just too crazy to handle.
And yes if you are fast expanding against someone who goes pool (or gas pool) first you need spines ASAP, if you won't then superior numbers of lings with bane support will own you hard. You need those spines to take care of enemy banes and also the zerg with later hatch needs to be aggressive really fast or he will get outmacroed fast. It can be really hard to catch up in terms of economy to someone who opened with earlier hatch than yours.
I think it's also handy to keep in mind to keep the spines separated with distance long enough for enemy banes' blasts not to catch more than 1-2 spines. You don't want to lose like 3 spines to 5 banes only because they were too close.
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OK I got few questions myself.
ZvT questions
1) If I go for ling bane muta against tank marine should I make melee and carapace upgrades before or after spire and third? Should I make third before or after spire?
2) What is the best timing to get ultras incorporated into ling bane muta army? Does it depend on anything?
3) Is fungal equal or better than banes and when? I find pure ultra or ultra ling losing really hard to (3-3 upgraded) marines, I know I need some sort of AoE. I'm thinking fungal is better in late game because ultras get in the way and block banes...
ZvP questions
1) What is the safest way to be safe against Protoss FE 2 stargate when I want to open with roaches and transition into ling muta? Phoenixes or Void Rays or both usually get to my base before the spire is even done and I'm making Lair after about 4 initial roaches with 11 overlord pool 15 overlord 17 ling 18 nat hatch build order.
1 master Protoss told me pure lings give away my hunger for muta way too much and it's easy to counter this with fast Phoenixes. If I make Corruptors than in all of my games so far I didn't have enough firepower to deal with everything Protoss has - Corruptors hit only air and I can't afford enough mutas to harass efficiently.
Mass of roach is a great counter to air in my opinion but it's bit too blind to just go for it every game when I want to play with mutas and also it gets shut down hard by immortals and colossi.
My point is should I always make 2 additional queens for a total of 4 or a faster evo chamber and blind spores OR hydra den first and few hydralisks?
2) If my game plan is roach opening into muta ling then what should I transition into after decent number of mutas in case Protoss has:
a Stalkers and Colossi (maybe with Sentries)? Ultras or Broods...?
b Stalkers, Zealots, Archons and HTs? Broods?
Also what is better against zealot archon part of this combo - banes or roaches? I'm thinking banes are easy to be taken out by storms but maybe it can make Protoss life harder if I avoid tight areas and split banes into few smaller groups so he needs more storms to kill them? I'm also thinking roaches can endure storm better but since they are behind lings, lings get massacred by storm with zealot archon before roaches can get close enough or even position into nice arch... I mean roaches don't really save lings and are kinda bad against stalkers...
ZvZ question
How do I decide when to take additional bases in ZvZ (3rd, 4th...)? Do I just do it after my main and nat become saturated?
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1) If I go for ling bane muta against tank marine should I make melee and carapace upgrades before or after spire and third? Should I make third before or after spire?
+1 carapace. This is because 0 mech 3 shots lings instead of 2 shots. Once they get an armory and +1, they will always 2 shot lings, so carapace no longer really matters, and I would just get +1 melee. Generally if you are going muta style, you forego upgrades and infestors and hive in favor or more more more mutas and muta upgrades.
If they are going very bio heavy though, then double evo is very useful. +1 armor makes lings take one more shot, +1 weaposn make it so lings need to hit one less time.
But upgrades aren't too terribly important, just make sure to get +1 carapce around when you get baneling nest (about 50% lair) and then don't be stuck on 1/1 against 3/3 bio.
2) What is the best timing to get ultras incorporated into ling bane muta army? Does it depend on anything?
You don't. Ultras are pretty bad. The 'idea' is that you go broodlord/infestor, and then once the tanks are cleaned up, you go ultras. You can also go mass muta, and when you clean up tanks with that, you go ultras. But... they have a really, really nasty reputation among top players for a reason, in ZvT.
I think terran has just 'figured out' how to beat ultras now. Ghosts deal with them well, which they get against BL's, and marauders come easy when they are going for ghosts against broodlords anyways. Siege tanks do very well against them, and banelings, which generally come with them, and bio kiting wrecks them too.
But if you go for ultras, Ultra/Bane/Muta is the way to go. It's just... I wouldn't recommend then unless you are below masters.
They are great for killing shit though, no doubt about that, but I prefer 3/3 cracklings for that sort of role.
3) Is fungal equal or better than banes and when? I find pure ultra or ultra ling losing really hard to (3-3 upgraded) marines, I know I need some sort of AoE. I'm thinking fungal is better in late game because ultras get in the way and block banes...
FG is just different. It's a little more expensive to go for infestors rather than banes, despite how cost efficient infestors are, and how extmreely cost inefficient banes are - its great taht you can make banes last minute, but infestors you have to have on hand quickly. Going infestors before 3 base just kills your economy, so you have to be going a infestor -centric style if you really want to go infestors, which there are plenty of guides and pro players who recommend it.
In lategame, infestors definitely are a great replacement for banes, but the problem is that ghosts own infestors, while get owned by banes (only unit that's okay against ghosts, although not great).
Banes shouldn't be blocking your ultras, try using multiple hotkeys. I always recommend putting your banes on a separete hotkey, else they blow up on things they shouldnt, and block when they shouldn't.
It's perfectly fine to have your hotkeys like:
1. Army and Banes
2. Banes
So you can 'recorrect' bane pathing if necessary, or pull them away right before 100 banes blow up to kill a single thor.
1) What is the safest way to be safe against Protoss FE 2 stargate when I want to open with roaches and transition into ling muta? Phoenixes or Void Rays or both usually get to my base before the spire is even done and I'm making Lair after about 4 initial roaches with 11 overlord pool 15 overlord 17 ling 18 nat hatch build order.
1 master Protoss told me pure lings give away my hunger for muta way too much and it's easy to counter this with fast Phoenixes. If I make Corruptors than in all of my games so far I didn't have enough firepower to deal with everything Protoss has - Corruptors hit only air and I can't afford enough mutas to harass efficiently.
Mass of roach is a great counter to air in my opinion but it's bit too blind to just go for it every game when I want to play with mutas and also it gets shut down hard by immortals and colossi.
My point is should I always make 2 additional queens for a total of 4 or a faster evo chamber and blind spores OR hydra den first and few hydralisks?
I assume you are going fast third against FFE.
You have to use spores. Mass spores. You should have AT LEAST 3 overlords by the protoss base if they go FFE (they wont be able to kill overlords in the middle of the map, remember that), and most important is to WATCH THEIR GAS AT THE NATURAL!
If they take 4 gas quite quickly, and you sac 2 overlords and see an empty base, that basically... 100% means, that they are going double stargate. Very easy tell! No sentries, even more of a tell. Then can also proxy the stargates, so if you see an entirely empty base, meaning no mass gates, then it's obvious double stargate if they have 4 gas. 4 gas taken quickly is always some sort of all-in. really, it just always means double stargate if they take all 4 gas quickly (before 7 minute mark).
You just have to make about 2-3 spores on the 'outer' bases, like your exposed third and main - usually they won't go for the natural. As the air fleet is revealed, add spores gradually until you basically have 3 spores per base. I wuold even recommend putting 1-2 spores at your rally point, or between bases so they dont pick off overlords going to their rally.
You should purely be droning up, and once you have 75 drones, you get lings! You can also go faster lair, about 9:00 lair instead of 11-12 minute lair.
Hydras are NOT the answer, despite how natural it may seem - phoenixes do bonus to light, so 10 phoenixes will just shrrreeeed through hydras, especially when they are coming 1 by 1. Obviously, hydra+spore works fine for defense, but protsos can easily go into robo tech, or pick them off when they leave the base.
The best way to move out, is go corruptors. Get a good 5-10 corruptors, depending on what the opponent has.
Nestea, and personally myself, I like to go speedbanelings as a transition - if the opponent has really committed to the double stargate and doesnt start adding gateways, you can just really abuse this by mass speedbanes and just rolling through his entire army. He shouldn't have many sentries.
This obviously works less well if they make less than 10 air units, so if you see them transition back, it's okay to keep the speedbanes, and just start adding a few roaches. You should always get roach speed, obviously, in ZvP when going fast third.
If you lose a base, don't worry, you should still be ahead. Just take a fourth somewhere far off, put down more spores, be calm, and just keep droning. I believe there is a great game of... i think Losira vs HongUn on dual sight where he goes double stargate, even kills a base, but losira still wins. I think theres a game of Nestea vs.... some protoss, where he goes fast third, loses like 20 drones, and it just lowers his drone count to about 90 instead of 110. He crushed that game, suffice to say.
Obviously, don't make mutas. It's necessarily the phoenixes that are a problem, it's that muta play gets owned by any sort of all-in. If protoss is going 7 gate, mass blink, double stargate, et cetera, it rapes mutas. Not to mention, you know, the mass phoenixes.
You should try to get a macro hatch quickly, because you'll want to focus more on lings rather than roaches, due to void rays.
Additional queens is useful, but come kind of slow. I always add one at my natural and one in the main if I sense stargate play. If you see it early enough, queens are great though.
2) If my game plan is roach opening into muta ling then what should I transition into after decent number of mutas in case Protoss has:
a Stalkers and Colossi (maybe with Sentries)? Ultras or Broods...?
b Stalkers, Zealots, Archons and HTs? Broods?
Also what is better against zealot archon part of this combo - banes or roaches? I'm thinking banes are easy to be taken out by storms but maybe it can make Protoss life harder if I avoid tight areas and split banes into few smaller groups so he needs more storms to kill them? I'm also thinking roaches can endure storm better but since they are behind lings, lings get massacred by storm with zealot archon before roaches can get
Mutas don't transition as well as other zerg comps into hive tech. When you go mutas, you generally want to go 3 base muta (im assuming you are talking about 3 base muta, 2 base muta is 'outdated') and take your fourth quickly, and more bases, and encourage a base trade.
You can mass spines in the middle of the map, make lots of lings for counterattacking, but the goal is generally to just make a ton of mutas and force a base trade.
Roach/Ling/Muta is also quite strong, so if you think you can ever take the opponent on, go for it.
Against zealot/archon, banes are horrible (i used to think it was a good idea until I posted, asking for help, on the forums about it). You'll want to mass roaches, and eventually add in infestors. Archons are probably the only unit in the game that is great to NP anymore, so that's useful too. Pure roach eventually won't do, so once your on 3 bases, get those infestors.
How do I decide when to take additional bases in ZvZ (3rd, 4th...)? Do I just do it after my main and nat become saturated?
Whenever you have an army advantage. But to be more specific....
If you are in masters+ league, or think you can handle it because your macro is good enough, this is the rule of thumb I observe pros do, and do myself.
- If opponent is on 2 base hatch tech after 50ish supply, or has made roaches before 40 supply in more than 5, then he's going roach/ling all-in. Defend the allin, get 2 base lair.
- If opponent is going 2 base lair, grab a third, and then get a lair about 15 supply after he does (roughly, start the lair when his finishes).
- If opponent is going fast third, obviously, grab the fast third yourself in response.
If opponent is going 2 base lair roach, you'll want hydras to defend with. If opponent is going 2 base mutas, I would recommend just sporing everything up until your own mutas pop. If you are in diamond or lower, you can get away with roach/hydra, but don't move out until you have a few infestors. I really don't recommend hydras as a 'counter' to mutas because speedbanes own them and infestors take too much time to tech up and you just can't have all roaches, hydras, and infestors on 3 base before the ling/bane/muta player is maxed out and in your face with total map control and 4+ bases, but others do, and in diamond or lower, yea, hydras can work very well against mutas. What's more important than composition is macro, and getting a third is more important than if you go mutas or hydras, so 3 base roach/hydra is definitely better than 2 base mutas.
As for taking your fourth, that becomes an issue of map control and army advantage. If you ever have the army advantage of map control, really, just take the fourth. If the game is sort of stalemated, then you can definitely go for the fourth.
I'd recommend making army before grabbing the fourth, as on 3 bases you should be okay, but once you get close to maxing out or get your tech out, or get a clear army advantage/map control, take the fourth.
Just like in ZvP, getting a third before lair is 'better'. It's what nestea and idra and losira do anyways. It's very hard to pull off at lower levels though, even as a higher masters zerg I struggle with taking a third.
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wooooooooooohoooooooo that was fast thank you ^^
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Helllo everyone,
I played a game yesterday against a protoss player and I was wondering how I managed to win.
He went for a 3gate expo, and I went to do a roach ling push off of two bases (not completely all-in, but still hurting my economy). The push failed horribly, because I was looking at my base to macro, instead of paying attention to the battle (my lings were first slaughtered and only then came my roaches in the fray). He did not pressure me (wich I believe is a fault of his) and I first made units, then went into mega drone mode and took a third, fully saturated my three bases. I went roach hydra (blindly) and the entire game, if I look at the army tab, he had a higher cost army. Yet I defaeted him crushingly with my forces. He went mostly gateway units, and then started adding collossi. So my question is: is it normal for zerg to have a lower cost army, adn still convincingly win the game? Or i it only because I am a gold noob that this was the case?
Thanks in advance
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What compositions are viable in ZvP, it's the only match up which I feel completely lost it. I currently do Decafs 12 pool opener, Roach Ling Muta ect, but I can't seem to pull it off correctly....
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^ i think that mutas only work if:
a. They aren't doing an all-in
b. You went fast third, and you were able to deny protoss' 3rd for at least a little while (forced cancels, contained, etc) with mass roach/ling.
It's not really a fighting comp, it's just a great way to translate a macro lead (3 base vs 2 base) into a win. Once they get their third up you are sort of just trying to encourage a base trade, although you have a lead so you could do anything. I think it's recomended done when the protoss opens robo, or stargate and they don't make a ton of phoenixes.
For a straight up fight, I think roach/baneling/infestor is the only comp that works really well. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor works great if you go fast third, and then just be super hyper aggressive, not only taking out their third but just trading over and over. Stephano does this, but the key part is being super aggressive against 2 base protoss before they can really get colossi out and organized, as you are just trading over and over, and when colossi do come you are just trading armies to keep the count low until you get corruptors.
I've heard roach/hydra/banelingrain does well too.
A few people here really like going mass ling/infestor, emphasis on lings, and just do tons of counterattacks with at least 1 macro hatch with a 3 base opener and then going super fast hive, and not making any roaches at all.
Roach/Infestor is still pretty strong too, as is just straight up mass roach. It's not so much about compositions in ZvP as it is about taking a fast third when protoss is on 2 base, as in third before lair, and then just slamming out mutas (as popular in korea/metagame) or just slamming with roach/ling until hive.
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On December 20 2011 19:45 Belial88 wrote:
^ i think that mutas only work if:
a. They aren't doing an all-in
b. You went fast third, and you were able to deny protoss' 3rd for at least a little while (forced cancels, contained, etc) with mass roach/ling.
It's not really a fighting comp, it's just a great way to translate a macro lead (3 base vs 2 base) into a win. Once they get their third up you are sort of just trying to encourage a base trade, although you have a lead so you could do anything. I think it's recomended done when the protoss opens robo, or stargate and they don't make a ton of phoenixes.
For a straight up fight, I think roach/baneling/infestor is the only comp that works really well. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor works great if you go fast third, and then just be super hyper aggressive, not only taking out their third but just trading over and over. Stephano does this, but the key part is being super aggressive against 2 base protoss before they can really get colossi out and organized, as you are just trading over and over, and when colossi do come you are just trading armies to keep the count low until you get corruptors.
I've heard roach/hydra/banelingrain does well too.
A few people here really like going mass ling/infestor, emphasis on lings, and just do tons of counterattacks with at least 1 macro hatch with a 3 base opener and then going super fast hive, and not making any roaches at all.
Roach/Infestor is still pretty strong too, as is just straight up mass roach. It's not so much about compositions in ZvP as it is about taking a fast third when protoss is on 2 base, as in third before lair, and then just slamming out mutas (as popular in korea/metagame) or just slamming with roach/ling until hive.
Yea the premise of Decafs build is fast 3rd v FFE, I think the denying of the 3rd is what is holding me back with them.
I generally do aim for a fast 3rd, so I guess implementing Stephano's style could be good. Roach Bling Festor is another that I've not experimented with, I presume banerain ect.
Thanks for your help.
Edit: I used to go ling festor, to great success, until patch 1.4 with the infestor nerf, which essentially limited how successful I could be with it.
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Hi there,
I get that standart answer to Protoss Forge expanding is quick third. But what if the third is blocked by Dustin Bow... err destructible rocks (Tal Darim / Shaterred ... ) ?
Should Z make exrta ling to kill the rocks quicker and what would be the ideal ling number in that case ?
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^ Some players, like idra for example, will put the third right next to the rocks. They'll use it as a macro hatch, and transfer oversaturated drones to that mineral line (ie when the count a mineral line gets above 16, they'll put it there instead of making more workers and getting diminishing returns). They'll put a spine there, and eventually lings on it, and then when it's down they'll make they're fourth their, so it's becomes a macro hatch.
TDA however, is large enough that you can just take your 4th as the third. That's what I do - depending on where the opponent spawned, I make my third the farther 4th. Put an overlord by it's sort of 'choke', or watching that high ground that's always a pain, and have a ling by it's watch tower, and it'll be okay.
I just veto ST because of how that map is (too small, main is so large impossible to scout with overlords, third is ridiculous to take, an easy gold base for terran is hard to deal with, as well as gold for protoss, the third is extremely easy for protoss to take and you can't deny it so makes the game realllly hard, the map is somewhat small, the cliffs all around your main make cliff abuse like blink, colossi, motherships, and siege tank contains impossibly hard to deal with, and it very easily leads to split map scenarios which suck ass but at least on other maps there are more bases and it's bigger). I reallly hate that map, but some pros, like stephano, will straight up take the natural on the farther away base, hold the XNC, and just defend it normally since FFE won't have units anyways.
You can also just make it a macro hatch by the rocks, I've seen pros do that too, and then eventually wear down the rocks with a spine.
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EPT
