On August 14 2010 00:25 FoUsTy wrote: Replay Xdaunt : 50 apm vs 50 apm. Terran see VR and make one raven...not viking... Like we say at this level VR is good......
You do realize that White-Ra and lots of other pro-level players often open with void rays against terrans, right?
Besides, here's a better point: if I'm able to effectively use void rays against terrans with my "50 APM" at diamond level (I'm like 680 or so right now), then a lot of protoss players should be able to similarly use them effectively without requiring massive APM.
Little seriously please. T against you don't got stimpack fast (as T can do now) When one got 2 viking against one VR he don't hit and run, just let them. I train with one top diamond T which taking fast stim...marine marauder stimed crush stalker VR... And more of that you are late/don't charged VR on rok... anyway............................
I've played plenty of games against terrans who get a quick stim against void rays. Guess what? It still doesn't stop the harassment. Also, why charge on a rock when you can charge right on their wall-in? Again, the point isn't necessarily to kill the terran. It's just to buy me time. It just so happens that those replays show me killing terrans outright.
On August 14 2010 04:25 FoUsTy wrote: High level player, before IEM say "The imbalance is big" dimaga, "T is just too much power" artosis... Well speak about high level player...
You realize that those are both ZERG players right?
How exactly have you avoided being banned so far? You've been a huge troll ever since you first showed up.
On August 14 2010 04:32 FoUsTy wrote: But you are really good! Mais tu parles vraiment bien... French is hard... APM on fight means a lot ... I explain ni my last post... And mistake too are explain.
Correct for you :
Je vois que t'es francais, alors je vais répondre dans cette langue. L'APM n'est pas très important, oui, dans les haute divisions, il faut qu'on fasse bien avec le <<Micro>>, et seulement là, on doit avoir un APM très haut. Mais le replay d'xDaunt n'est pas dans une division assez haute pour avoir besoin d'avoir les main assez rapide, dans ce cas, il faut que tu laisses toute seule les joueurs qui voudrais d'etre plus bien ????????????????, et c'est pas gentil ce que t'as fait.
haha, ouais, j'ai beaucoup des problems avec gramaire (<- definetement pas correct), merci pour les corrections.
Aussi, APM est TRES important, mais les joueurs qui ne sont pas tres bien ont problems avec ce ci; en Gold ou Silver, 50 APM est d'accord.
About build orders: OPINION: Anything beyond your first two minutes should be improvised! If your build order carries you all the way to a twilight council, you are making yourself so inflexible that you lose to a inferior opponent due to the rock paper scissor phenomenon, where your rigid build loses to their rigid build! My advice, and what I do in every game, is to have a general idea of every unit that you want to build against a particular opponent (based on race usually) and go from there. Make sure you are sticking close to that general idea and you should do well!
About VRs vs Terran: Don't do it, please. VRs are soooo vulnerable against Terran's first unit! If you are not a high level player, this will not work for you!
On August 14 2010 05:15 tehemperorer wrote: About VRs vs Terran: Don't do it, please. VRs are soooo vulnerable against Terran's first unit! If you are not a high level player, this will not work for you!
This is probably true. If you're in silver or gold, you really won't need good, finessed void ray usage to beat a terran. Simply improve your mechanics and you should be okay. Make sure that you're building enough workers, keeping your money low, and expanding at the right times. Executing these basics properly will propel you into diamond without having to worry about higher level strategy.
I think I've already mentioned that I don't really like VRs since stimmed marines rape them very easily, but I can't deny that when used properly, VRs are awesome to keep pressure on the terran base. Although I've seen alot of good protoss players (even WhiteRa) losing very quickly due to wasting his first 2 VRs, which is doomed to happen should the terran catch it out of position.
If one doesn't like the VR, I've found it quite effective to use a Warp Prism to keep the terran at his toes. It doesn't cost any gas, and T will always have to watch out for it, else he'll suddenly get 3 raging zealots into his mineral line. Warp Prisms are more my thing than the VR since I like getting a robo out before my TC pops. This is very easy to do if T doesn't have an engineering bay out (which means turrets). Also, if I don't see an engineering bay, DTs are very mean against bio, and also a very nice unit to keep on your ramp if T tries to push up. Sure, he can scan. But it's not like he got an infinite amount of those scans either. Too bad you're an ancient by the time Dark Shrine pops, though. To make a long story short, T got alot of options to ruin your day as a protoss player, but the protoss can counter with some very nice elements to make sure the terran is going to regret leaving his base. The VR, as xDaunt has demonstrated quite well, is ONE of several options.
tehemperor, thanks for sharing replays but frankly they weren't of much use. I am Gold, trying to claw my way into Plat (Blizz just started matching me against higher than silver players). Your first opponent banks tons in the beginning and plays passively, your second opponent didn't even scout your base to get a sniff on the proxy. Your play would be fairly useless against a semi-component terran on the level I face when I go to ladder (or I face a mirror MU, cue other whinethread about PvP, only went against 2 zerg in 25 games). They scout you, deny you scouting until robo which means flying blind for way too long or teching too fast to stop their inevitable early mid-game push with 10-25 marines (sometimes marauders in there) and 3~tanks. The timing is such that the push comes after conc/stim and sometimes after shields too. Siege is generally researching so that it finishes when he approaches my ramp. If he doesn't push up (even when I cut him in half with FF he has vision long enough for his sieged tanks go to work anyway) he'll just contain me.
I don't trust myself to hold of any early agression while going the White-Ra build of "1gate-core-stargate void harass to keep him in his base". Even if I did I don't trust the terrans I would face to stay in his base (cue base race which I'll probably lose, charged VR or not), and even if he did, I don't think I would be able to exploit it good enough anyway. I do not want to proxy buildings, only pylons for shorter distance when warping in.
tl;dr How do I grab initiative vs. a terran? Limited by 40-60 avg. APM.
On August 14 2010 08:21 SirNeshorn wrote: If one doesn't like the VR, I've found it quite effective to use a Warp Prism to keep the terran at his toes.
This. I was doing this strat before running into White-Ra's VR harass build. Works pretty similar, get fast robo>observer out. Take a look at the base with your obs, make sure to take tabs at his army composition and location. Now either: 1. get warp prism immediately and go behind opponent's mineral line, use the prism's 'warp' ability and warp in stalkers/zealots to kill of probes. Load your units and hightail out of there when his army comes. There's enough time to get out because your observer should still be alive and you know exactly when the enemy is near. 2. get 2 immortals out, then warp prism. Load the immortals and drop them behind mineral line + warp in units. This takes more time, though if you pay attention to what your enemy's doing with your observer, you can basically time your drop when he is about to make a push. If he pushes before you're ready then you can just include the immortals with your main army and they will help a great deal if you're dealing with marauder heavy type.
The point of this is to slow down his econ by killing scvs before he gets his turrets up. In the meantime, if his army is on the way to your base and decides to go all in/base exchange, hopefully you've got a decent sized army to stave it off. I think its 50/50. But if he decides to go back and deal with your harass, then you can expand and macro up to tier 3 as fast as possible.
One last bump to this topic here. What would be a related strategy in countering an early marauder push (2 rax) in a map with no ramps, such as in Kulas Ravine? Attached is a replay (First post, Replay #6) of what happened with the marauder push and there's practically little I can do to stop the attack, unless I go for a very specialised build or quick Void Rays. The problem here is that the timing window to actually get your units up is so tiny that once you miss it you have more or less lost the game. Somehow maps like this start to show how slightly unbalanced terrans really are when the map is favouring them.
Sounds like you are doing a robotics fac opening if you are transitioning to collosi. Try planning for HT's late against bio ball. It's much harder to deal w/ as terran than collosi play (for me).
i think in earlygame, sentries with their forcefield and their shield are a lifesaver for toss. i use them heavily to slow down the terran bioball advancing or to force them to come to my army in small packages. only problem with sentries are the heavy gas costs, which hinders toss to build colossi or ht as fast as possible.
I Agree with most of points from xDaunt and i think the most crucial momment for this matchup is the transition from early to mid game.First of all you want to put pressure on Terran all the way till you reach the mid game at which point you should be either good teched or with expo.I try as much to instantly harass with 1-2 zealots at the beggining and if i have the opportunity with stalkers and then when i get repelled go for Stargate and Phoenix instead of Void ray.
Phoenix is guaranteed that it will work very good as their speed is unmatchable they can fire while moving back and go around in his base causing havok.You can fly over his base without dieing while Void Rays can be lethal and sometimes game winning(Although i dont see where in the higher levels of Diamond it can be) cause of their speed you cant really scout or harass that much but you can certainly keep him in his base.By the time he decides to make Turrets or move outside his base you should have teched to where you can counter him.I prefer to expand after i get teched so i dont lose silly games even if i have the upper hand but it depends on the opponent.
Dont let him get it easy staying in his base macroing and making 5 barracks pumping units while expoing.Pressure him hard so he forgets about the need to kill you before you get your tech up.
I used to have some trouble against Terran but after playing them in 90% of my ladder games I'm pretty confident. You really need to scout and know what they are doing.
VS Fast Expand: You see them not taking gas or putting an addon on their techlab with your scouting probe. Or you see nothing but marines and non-addon rax when you stalker scout their ramp. Just expand early yourself and make sure you have enough gateway units to hold off an early non-stimmed marine attack. Blink stalkers can be very effective against this but you opt to one base blink stalker instead of expand you are essentially all-in and need to kill them or do serious damage.
VS All-in one base bio: If you see 4-5 rax off one base and mass unit production with no factory in sight. Against this I always go one base collossus with 2-3 gateways. Assuming you get the collossus out in time for their push you can easily end the game afterwards with 1-2 collosus + ranged upgrade because they will not have any way to tech to starport and get vikings in time.
VS "Standard" bio: I open 2 gate robo and expand when they expand or sooner only if I have good scouting and am confident I won't die if they push me. This is usually after I have a decent amount of gateway units and 1-2 immortals. Note: only make immortals if you see marauders. Do not try to use immortals against marine+ghost or something like that. As soon as I expand I add a gateway and a twilight council to get charge then get storm as soon as I can. If they have a good amount of marauders or and/or have a few tanks thrown in then keep making immortals. If they are mainly marine then add more gateways.
Its very important against terran to scout a lot. Even more than the other races. Early game you need to be harassing their ramp with a stalker. Use the same stalker to keep control of the watchtower if they let you - a lot of people will just send one marine to it. Always know what kind of unit comp they have - the more marauders they have the more immortals you need ECT. Also keep an eye on the numbers and don't get caught offguard by a push. You need to know when they are pushing so you can have your units spread in a good concave where they can't land fight winning EMPs.
If they kill your observer make another one. If they kill that one make a third one. If at any point you aren't using your robo for production make a 2nd or 3rd observer to watch for DROPS and island expansions.
Once you get storm you should be able to win provided you don't get outplayed badly. Use storm drops with zealots warping in to harass expansions. It is very hard for them to attack you once you get warp-in storm but you need to be very careful of drops. Before fights use your vision advantage (you hopefully have an observer) to run single templar out and emp ghosts or drop storms on the bio. Feedbacking full energy medivacs is good too.
I really don't like the void ray opening. You are too reliant on the void ray and its pretty common for them to have a lot of marines now with either FE or the marine + ghost push. The only time I make void rays is if I see all marauders or as a late game transition if they are tank/marauder heavy.
Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but it's a vid from HuskyStarcraft's youtube channel on stopping a marauder rush from a 3 rax. Pretty sure the same could be done if it was marine heavy as well.
On August 16 2010 23:29 A3main88 wrote: Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but it's a vid from HuskyStarcraft's youtube channel on stopping a marauder rush from a 3 rax. Pretty sure the same could be done if it was marine heavy as well.
Yeah, people have posted that before. I think it's a terrible way to go about PvT because it leaves you too much on the defensive. Again, the real issue isn't the early game marine/mauder push. The problem is the mid game attack that features large bio masses that are often supposed by medivacs.
Two get through the midgame I will do one of two things:
1) I will use a fast VR opener to keep him in his base and let me build up my army. This means getting collossi out to deal with marines if he keeps making them. Ultimatly the VR harass just lets me be the aggressor and forces him on the defense.
2) I will go for charge and do mass gateways. Zealots just eat up infantry balls it's disgusting. The key is to get a surround and prevent him from kiting you. Even with EMP zealots will still come out on top, cost for cost. I suggest +1 weapons in this build so that you 2 shot stimmed marines. A few sentries in there will also provide devastingly good sheild/FF support. From there it's a slow transition into HT.
Both builds are actually defensive in nature. However, the first build lets you harass the terran base and dictate his composition/army positioning, while your units will turtle up inside your base. The second build focuses on you taking map control and ambushing his army as it moves towards your base.
The key, IMO, is not to try and directly to tech to counters (teching T3 to beat T1? Not gonna happen). I find the real difficulty in this matchup is pacing. It's almost like playing zerg - both Zerg and Toss have to keep pace with terran developments because it's hard to break that wall in the early game. If the terran player techs, you have to tech or expo. If the terran player masses an army, you have to mass an army. While Terran players can punish you if you don't mass an army against them, it's difficult for toss to do the same against terran in those opening stages.
Early pressure I rarely have trouble about. It's the tech units combined with the bio ball that is dangerrous. If he pushes out with a 3-rax bio ball, one should stock up some gateway units to defend with a nice FF and an Immortal or two. However, if he combines his tech with the bio ball, it gets way harder to stop. Sure, it comes later than any 3-rax pressure, but it's still very hard to stop. A terran can turtle, tech up and expand. Then, about 100 supply he can push out with a fairly big bio ball supported by medivacs, a couple of banshees and a raven for PDD. I think there was a recent replay of this from mouzMaNa and mouzMorroW. At this point a protoss will very likely have his tech units up, so it should still not be impossible to stop if you can see when T pushes out. FB'ing a raven before it uses PDD will give protoss a huge advantage in the upcoming battle, as his banshees are no longer protected. And yes, banshees ARE powerful assault units when combined with MMM.
EPT
