EPTPvT is my best matchup, so I don't have as many problems with it, so I'm not sure what builds Terrans look at as "strongest" in TvP. PvP though.. ugh x.x
[H] PvT MMM bioball - Page 2
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Leyra
United States1222 Posts
PvT is my best matchup, so I don't have as many problems with it, so I'm not sure what builds Terrans look at as "strongest" in TvP. PvP though.. ugh x.x | ||
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AncienTs
Japan227 Posts
On August 11 2010 07:42 xDaunt wrote:I'm sorry that you're not good enough to beat early terran cheese. However, there are plenty of protoss players that can beat it. As a protoss player who knows how to beat these terran cheese attacks and basically autowins when a terran tries this crap, I love it when terrans try proxy reapers or early marauders against me. AMEN. | ||
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Tmdemo
Denmark17 Posts
On August 11 2010 08:16 Leyra wrote: As a toss player, I generally go Chargelot into Templar. Early pressure is easily taken care of by sentry/chargelot. A lot of times Terrans will push when Charge is about half way done, 2 FFs at the ramp will give me time to finish charge, and once charge is done, I generally just trash their early push. At about this time I spend minerals on Lots, and my next chunk of gas on Archives, and an HT or two. Chrono out storm, and usually by the time terrans push again I have 1 or 2 STorms worth of energy, and usually one of them can afford a feedback as well, so at that point it's just HT vs Ghost micro. The only real tricky time is if they push real early, but I usually have enough zealots/sentries to cut his army in half and prevent too much Marauder kiting, so I'm usually okay. The exception being a really early all-in, but I don't see that particularly often. Essentially, I agree with xDaunt's post.. I use esntries to buy me enough time to get charge up, and then speed up to t3, using quick teching to circumvent the fact that Terran armies are rough at certain stages of the game. Zealot/templar is a really strong lategame vs T, in my experience, as well. Just my $.02 =] This all sounds very good but if he goes banshees it's pretty much buy buy. With this build you have no scouting information, and I dont know about you but i find it extremely unpleasant to play in the blind... especially against terran. As I see it you pretty much always have to go either robo, stargate or researce hallucinations... But still the only thing that allows you to deal with banshees is the robo.... After that i transition into collosus and then into HT when he gets some vikings.... Almost every game I play turns out like this and though I do agree that tier two is imbalanced i most definately do not agree about tier 3 being in the protoss favor. A decent terran who slow pushes with tanks, marines and ghosts/vikings (depends on me going collossus or ht) is incredibly hard to deal with. And the fact that they have a building that spot any movement on the minimap makes harashing super dificult aswell. Maybe I just suck, but that just isn't the case against P and Z.... | ||
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mrk
Korea (South)60 Posts
Seriously... reapers off standard will actually get to your base AFTER the stalker is out now with the nerfed build time. | ||
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cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
On August 11 2010 07:42 xDaunt wrote: Ok, whatever. Seriously, dude. You posted total garbage in another thread and you're posting more garbage here. Make sure that you know what you're talking about before you post crap like this. This guy was some known troll on Blizzard forums I think, don't mind him, hopefully he won't be able to post here anymore soon enough  On topic, that's basically how xDaunt said, you can be agressive early on, then T has a window when he has ghosts, medivacs, stim and shields and can push before colossis are out. When colossi are out he'll have to wait for some vikings and once he has them he'll get the upper hand again till HT are out. And honestly once you gets HTs it's lights out, it's ridiculously strong against Terran bio and shouldn't lose if you reach this point, the only way to lose after this is facing a 10x better player, who would've won earlier anyway so that's very unlikely. Also, VRs are always a very solid opener, it keeps T in his base as he needs quite a lot of marines to hold 1 or 2 VRs while he gets turrets up. Opening VRs serves 2 purposes, containing him and making him waste ressources on air defense, while you can macro up safely and get chargelots into HTs | ||
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Leyra
United States1222 Posts
On August 11 2010 09:14 Tmdemo wrote: This all sounds very good but if he goes banshees it's pretty much buy buy. With this build you have no scouting information, and I dont know about you but i find it extremely unpleasant to play in the blind... especially against terran. As I see it you pretty much always have to go either robo, stargate or researce hallucinations... But still the only thing that allows you to deal with banshees is the robo.... After that i transition into collosus and then into HT when he gets some vikings.... Almost every game I play turns out like this and though I do agree that tier two is imbalanced i most definately do not agree about tier 3 being in the protoss favor. A decent terran who slow pushes with tanks, marines and ghosts/vikings (depends on me going collossus or ht) is incredibly hard to deal with. And the fact that they have a building that spot any movement on the minimap makes harashing super dificult aswell. Maybe I just suck, but that just isn't the case against P and Z.... I didn't mention, but, typically I'll throw down a robo somewhere in there just for mass obs production, in addition to a warp prism for various harrass. Banshees are pretty easy to scout early on, at least fast banshees, my scout lives long enough to see if they grab that 2nd early gas, typically. If they do, I push out a robo a bit earlier. Any sort of really banshee-heavy play just gets raped by HTs, I see terrans do that from time to time. FB just owns them. IF they're smart enough to cloak and waste energy, it's a little harder, but stalkers do really well vs banshees.. so.. /shrug. | ||
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Dogsi
Indonesia298 Posts
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GrizzlyAdam
United States44 Posts
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FoUsTy
France45 Posts
On August 11 2010 07:42 xDaunt wrote: What? I'm sorry that you're not good enough to beat early terran cheese. However, there are plenty of protoss players that can beat it. As a protoss player who knows how to beat these terran cheese attacks and basically autowins when a terran tries this crap, I love it when terrans try proxy reapers or early marauders against me. Yes, as I said above, Tier 2 is imbalanced. That's why I said that protoss players need to plan around that disadvantage. Again, it doesn't mean that protoss can't win PvT. Honestly, I can't remember the last time that I lost a late game PvT. It was sometime back in Phase 1 of beta. Again, maybe you don't know how to do a late game PvT, but it's something that other protoss players and I don't have problems with. Ok, whatever. Seriously, dude. You posted total garbage in another thread and you're posting more garbage here. Make sure that you know what you're talking about before you post crap like this. Early reaper/marauder on map like steppes of war, or blistering sand is not balance! If terran is equal skill to you i'm sorry it's a joke! On other map like scrap station (which is REALLY IMBALANCE TOO cause of isles...) LT or kulas proxy is no prob... | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
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Dogsi
Indonesia298 Posts
In low numbers slots take out marauders and marines but in groups marines nad marauders win out. Stalkers can take out marines but lose badly to marauders. Marines and marauders can kite the slots even after the speed upgrade with a little micro. Immoralts suck vs large groups of terran units and Cols can and do kick the crap out of marauders and marines. They can, in large enough numbers, even take out tanks. However, here's the kicker, terran air kill them off fast as hell. Terran air also kick the crap out of toss air. So this means if they go air, you must get a lot of stalkers. Those stalkers are in turn mowed down by terran land... I see no actual solution to this. Is it possible to win? Of course. Just can't go toe to toe. However, if this is true, wouldn't this in fact mean that terran IS over powered? | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
playing some customs against mid-diamond terran training-partners I had some success with one gate robo openers; the goal is to get out one immortal asap (I usually use two chrono-boosts), while also getting one sentry for blocking the ramp and as many stalkers as possible (depending on building-placement and saved chrono-boosts it will be 2-3); depending on the opponent I will add either a second immortal or an observer; this will achieve several things: firstly, it will force your opponent to go slower on marauders and we all know that the marine-heavier the terran produces the easier it gets for protoss-gateway-armies; secondly, if your opponent took an early expansion you should also be able to afford one at this point; this holds especially true due to thirdly: a terran who sees an early immortal will almost always prepare for early colossi, meaning that he won't push all-in with just marine/marauder but will often get 2-3 vikings; if he doesn't he'll probably expect an early push with zealots/immortals/stalkers/sentries and will prepare for holding his ground; therefore, this early immortal will be especially effective when the terran got an early expansion, because mostly he won't have the guts to keep pressure high if he expects colossi any time soon all of this is of course just a distraction for getting tier 3 with decent eco; after my immortal(s)/immortal+observer I immediatly put down my second gateway + twilight council to get chargelots, expand, get more gateway-units, tech to high templar; notice that you will eventually be in a disadvantage during mid-game BUT if you have done a good job your opponent should'nt be aware of that until it is too late; the more you can trick him into believing that you will go heavy with robo-units the better; he will waste ressources on vikings and also won't dare to build tanks; on 4-player-maps with cross-position I've been experimenting with actually building a robo-bay in the middle of my base to distract the terran from my expand+templar/chargelots-tech since he will rely more on scans for scouting than sending SCV.....although until now I don't feel like it's really worth it, dunno, have to practice it more | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On August 11 2010 19:52 Dogsi wrote: This is what I don't get. Terran basic ground > toss basic ground. Terran air > toss air. Tanks take out cols and temps and terran basics with medics take out immortals. In low numbers slots take out marauders and marines but in groups marines nad marauders win out. Stalkers can take out marines but lose badly to marauders. Marines and marauders can kite the slots even after the speed upgrade with a little micro. Immoralts suck vs large groups of terran units and Cols can and do kick the crap out of marauders and marines. They can, in large enough numbers, even take out tanks. However, here's the kicker, terran air kill them off fast as hell. Terran air also kick the crap out of toss air. So this means if they go air, you must get a lot of stalkers. Those stalkers are in turn mowed down by terran land... I see no actual solution to this. Is it possible to win? Of course. Just can't go toe to toe. However, if this is true, wouldn't this in fact mean that terran IS over powered? Yes, in a heads up fight, terran sometimes has the advantage, especially when he gets very high tank and viking counts. Fortunately, that doesn't happen too often because of how resource-intensive that type of force is. Usually you're going to see either bio-ball tech or some 1/1/1 combination that is heavy on marines. In these instances, you can go toe-to-toe with the terran army if you have templar tech and win. However, let's assume that the terran has a high tech count and a ton of vikings such that you can't really fight him head on and win with everything else being equal. What you have to do in this instance is play PvT Brood War style: establish map control, secure an economic advantage, and abuse the terran's immobility. You have a ton of options for accomplishing these objectives. DT's, phase prisms, and warp in are absolutely brutal in the mid-late game when it comes to denying expansions. Is terran army somewhere in the field away from his base? Great! Send a warp prism over his base and start warping all sorts of stuff into his base. Send DTs to assassinate expansions. Use fluxed void rays to take down terran bases. If you can catch the terran army in a bad spot with your main army, go attack it. If you can end up trading armies, you win because, hopefully, you will have remembered to take a 2-3 extra expansions than what the terran has while he was sitting in his base building up tanks. In short, there are a lot of options for protoss in PvT once you get to tier 3. You just have to be creative. Honestly, I absolutely love late game protoss play in all match ups. There are so many wicked tools available for wrecking havoc on your opponent. | ||
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yalag
38 Posts
Should I: 1) Go ghost? and try to emp the HT? It's extremely difficult I find because unlike P I don't have observer the battle takes place with little notice and my ghosts are usually out of place and FE happens first. 2) Completely switch to mech? Is this appropriate? Considering I invested in 3 rax (plus addons)? 3) Is there even a third option?? | ||
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divinesage
Singapore649 Posts
Anyway Tmdemo mentioned it just now, a chargelot transition into HTs would mean a lack of scouting information, and a horribly weak anti-air (just a small handful of stalkers, not more than 4-5). I was thinking perhaps placing a forge and a couple of cannons after twilight council could be done to somehow protect the mineral line from Banshees. 150+150+150 = 450 gas invested. It probably isn't too much, since zeals are 25 minerals cheaper than stalkers, but still pretty mineral intensive. So I am not too sure about the viability of this build, you're still lacking scouting information. As for quick void rays, I haven't actually tried it out seriously yet, been rather reluctant to do so as it is not something I favour. Nevertheless I guess I should start exploring its possibilities. I do believe the PvT matchup is still lacking something, the P player being very static. Once the toss player commits down on a tech tree (robo or twilight), it's pretty impossible for him to switch to the other tech to throw off the terran. The terran on the other hand has plenty of options that he can choose from to combat the toss, and all that is needed is a simple comsat on the toss (unless the toss is somehow able to hide the production of the higher tech tree.) Somehow I'm starting to feel like the current PvT matchup is a pretty tough hybrid of SCBW's PvT and PvZ. | ||
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SirNeshorn
Norway66 Posts
On August 11 2010 23:28 xDaunt wrote: Yes, in a heads up fight, terran sometimes has the advantage, especially when he gets very high tank and viking counts. Fortunately, that doesn't happen too often because of how resource-intensive that type of force is. Usually you're going to see either bio-ball tech or some 1/1/1 combination that is heavy on marines. In these instances, you can go toe-to-toe with the terran army if you have templar tech and win. However, let's assume that the terran has a high tech count and a ton of vikings such that you can't really fight him head on and win with everything else being equal. What you have to do in this instance is play PvT Brood War style: establish map control, secure an economic advantage, and abuse the terran's immobility. You have a ton of options for accomplishing these objectives. DT's, phase prisms, and warp in are absolutely brutal in the mid-late game when it comes to denying expansions. Is terran army somewhere in the field away from his base? Great! Send a warp prism over his base and start warping all sorts of stuff into his base. Send DTs to assassinate expansions. Use fluxed void rays to take down terran bases. If you can catch the terran army in a bad spot with your main army, go attack it. If you can end up trading armies, you win because, hopefully, you will have remembered to take a 2-3 extra expansions than what the terran has while he was sitting in his base building up tanks. In short, there are a lot of options for protoss in PvT once you get to tier 3. You just have to be creative. Honestly, I absolutely love late game protoss play in all match ups. There are so many wicked tools available for wrecking havoc on your opponent. Just want to post a replay that displays exactly what xDaunt means (good post, btw) : http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/suggy-vs-cloud-lost-temple A fine demonstration of the power of protoss mobility in late game. Although I'd really like to see some Colossi in here as well (if you check the protoss player's econ in late game, you can see he could easily afford it), it's still a great replay to demonstrate what to do against a late game terran bioball. | ||
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Musketeer
142 Posts
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Argolis
Canada211 Posts
How important is it to kill the medivacs in a MMM ball? Should I prioritize feedback to eliminate the medivacs over dropping a storm over the ball? Should stalkers FF on the medivacs? I'm having problems with MMM balls as well and never sure what I should be prioritizing in my micro. | ||
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
On August 11 2010 01:29 jejehrhr wrote: heavy zealot, stalker, colossus no micro involved rapemode gogo Err LOL ? in bronze league maybe | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On August 12 2010 09:29 Argolis wrote: Not trying to derail the thread but I have a question: How important is it to kill the medivacs in a MMM ball? Should I prioritize feedback to eliminate the medivacs over dropping a storm over the ball? Should stalkers FF on the medivacs? I'm having problems with MMM balls as well and never sure what I should be prioritizing in my micro. It depends. If the MM ball is marine-heavy, then prioritize storm. If it's marauder-heavy, then feedback the medivacs first. | ||
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