|
XDaunt, great post, I will look at the matchup with this in mind from now on and I think it will help me in many aspects.
I am a 480 diamond toss player who is getting a win rate vs terran that is basically opposite to yours.
Now, provided I do not successfully repel and counter early aggression, secure an economic advantage, pull off a good void ray harrass, or get to T3 before he does how do I hold my natural?
Is it pretty much impossible to hold your natural on a map with a more open natural expansion vs a similarly skilled terran player without succeeding in those things I mentioned above?
Sentries will hold your ramp fine but keeping them out of your main will not win you the game, you need that natural to continue T3 production.
Also, I agree that 3 gate robo is the safest route to take, I like to use warp prisms to harass. My favorite is 2 immortals to snipe depots and tech labs with a full gateway production cycle to support them. I will pick up the immortals and leave the zealots to die if im lucky and repeat after some poking with my main army. This becomes extremely effective after you have an expansion up since you can support up to 7 maybe 8 gates to warp in at this point.
early voids prevent an early robo, going 3 gate robo prevents you from building early voids, going twilight too soon will hinder your robo, going straight to charge and templar will leave you somewhat blind and open to banshees, 4 gate is not recommended since if you dont win with it the terran will steamroll you at T2.
Is there any other option that I am missing?
thanks in advance guys, I'm really having a lot of trouble with T2 terran.
|
I'm not a very good player, but to me, if you scout bioball, the most sensible thing would be to go Chargelots and Templars. The builds are parellel, templars are more than effective, and it seems to me that it wouldn't be a bad bet.
Being a mass bioball, chances are that his ghost count isn't going to skyrocket early in the game, so you can transition into a robo slightly later than if you were going Colossi and still be fine.
Now if anyone has a decent build order they could help us Protoss players out with, it would be amazing. I think the most effective and smartest way to do this would be a 2 gate-core-council-archives-gate-facil-gate. That sounds rather long to me though. If anyone has an in-depth build order for me to play with, I would appreciate it, and I'm sure it would help out the OP in something to try as well.
|
to zealotz55:
what might work for xDaunt may not work for other players. so don't fall into the one-track mindset of using voidrays to expand...etc. I really consider terran tier 1 to be marine marauder reaper, and protoss tier 1, zealot stalker sentry. After this, immortals are tier2 units that are only cost effective in countering marauders.
voidrays are tier2 units effective in harass a terran composition light in marines; however, the bratOK build (mass rine/ghost) is just of such a simple composition and requires low micromanagement that any mid-level terran player can pull it off, and defend against a huge variety of protoss army compositions.
if you choose to tech to robotics facility, build an observer first if you don't see any marauders being made, then you really have to control the terran's bottom ramp. I know this sounds a little strange; but it's surprisingly effective. Make sure you're on high alert when you're stalling the terran at his ramp early game as he may try to stim & run out, or use medivacs to drop you later on.
|
Thx ancient, Ive been using voids to some good effect but I still prefer robo tbh.
The most important thing I took from xdaunt is that T2 is no time to be screwing around with terran. You need to be extremely careful if you havent made a dent in them because one lost battle will certainly lose you the game as well as a few lost units or failed harass. I have often pushed a terran at T2 with no advantage and I think this is what alot of my losses are coming from.
Truesyzygy, im working on the safest, all purpose terran build that is easy to change up if need be.
so far goes something like this gate, core, gate, gate, robo then a forge and twilight for +armor and charge.
then you can decide temps or collosus, if you havent expanded you should be making preperations to once your t3 is about to come.
the only reason you should not have expanded is if you have failed a harass/push, or have pressure or threat of pressure from a T2 terran you are on even footing with.
twilight and forge need to be staggered somewhat (dont make them both at the same time) so you can keep near constant gate production with comp. that will be good vs to what the terran is making, only build immortals if you need them and obs first of course.
you can build your robo earlier if they are early expanding or teching, you can also early expand with them if thats your thing.
Your early push/harrasment options are early stalker wall harassment, a large gateway force with immortal support if you think the investment is worth it (good on destructable backdoors)
and my personal favorite some very careful warp prism harrasment.
drop the units (immos my fav), warp mode, warp in a cycle of units as soon as they done warping in transport mode and get ready to fly off with the immos. Vikings will fuck this so be careful
|
Uhhh, I'm kinda on a slump right now.. due to PvT matchups. Never had problem before but somehow just been losing to 90% of the games vs Ts these days.
What do all the better Toss do when they're in this situation. Ts block entrance with 2 depots 1 rax. You see a tech lab. You expect reapers. You make 1 or 2 stalkers and get a robo for Obs to see what Ts doing. Next thing you know, 6-7 reapers with nitro packs come in your base and harass..
The thing I'm having problem with is that Terran used to just rush with the first reaper they made.. but now if I don't see it after i got my stalker out.. I don't expect a reaper ... next thing I know 5-6 reapers come in and I have 1 or 2 stalkers with an Obs..
Should have built more stalkers obviously... but is it always safe to go from 3 gates to robo or 1 gate 1 stalker or 2 and get a fast Ob?
xDaunt, you seem like a verry good Toss vs Terrans. Can you explain your strats and BOs to beat those early cheese builds from Terrans (marauders and reapers)? Help a fellow Toss out ^^
|
In the time it takes to get 6-7 reapers they could also get 4-5 marauders which will just laugh at your 1-2 stalkers so it's not so much a cheese problem that you have as a build order problem.
I don't think you need a fast observer if you see they've gone tech on the first barracks. If they have then the chances are good they won't have a very fast cloaked banshee out so you can delay your obs to 3gate/robo or 2gate robo. Or infact in those situations I tend to go fast void ray as they won't have (m)any marines.
I like to leave my initial scouting probe at the front of the base/at a nearby xel'naga. That way if they do try some sort of early push I know about it and can rush units if required.
|
Yeah, I guess I have a BO problem..
Fast VR won't work. I've tried. By the time I had my first VR CBed out, he already had 4 reapers killing at least 3-4 probes with nitro and VR can't really chase down those reapers.. Maybe you'll kill one. And when you take that VR and go to his base, he'll have 3-4 marines which will be able to push that VR out with no problem.
Usually those reapers plays are on desert oasis and kulas ravine. They will go the long route so your probe at the tower is kinda useless..
I'll try 3 gates robo and 2 gates robo out. They seem very solid.
I still want xDaunt's replays against Ts though haha.. he sounds like a very good Toss against Terran
I'm mid diamond btw.. Used to be 2nd diamond but due to "overpowered Terrans" I've lost so many points it's not even funny.
|
On August 12 2010 15:28 JiSu wrote:
Yeah, I guess I have a BO problem..
Fast VR won't work. I've tried. By the time I had my first VR CBed out, he already had 4 reapers killing at least 3-4 probes with nitro and VR can't really chase down those reapers.. Maybe you'll kill one. And when you take that VR and go to his base, he'll have 3-4 marines which will be able to push that VR out with no problem.
Usually those reapers plays are on desert oasis and kulas ravine. They will go the long route so your probe at the tower is kinda useless..
I'll try 3 gates robo and 2 gates robo out. They seem very solid.
I still want xDaunt's replays against Ts though haha.. he sounds like a very good Toss against Terran
I'm mid diamond btw.. Used to be 2nd diamond but due to "overpowered Terrans" I've lost so many points it's not even funny.
reapers should be the least of your worries, spend more of your early resources on at least 2 gates and a good mix of zealot stalkers and sentries before your robo and you should be fine vs any early aggression from terran
Edit: same goes with stargates
|
I feel that stalkers/cols are a trap in this matchup. All the units that do really great against bio are super gas intensive. While you do need a few stalkers to keep attack retreat in check along with reaper harrass, sentries and high templars are amazing in this matchup. Also, scouting is ridiculously important as you need to catch the army rather than letting it catch you. The push really makes or breaks your game and I think it feels imbalanced because most players timing sense aren't exactly refined yet. T2 only feels imbalanced because a stalker heavy army simply can't afford the troops that're an actual threat to a bio ball.
|
Just some perspectives on what works vs my Bioaggression.
My typical build is heavy early MM with shells early on, Stim maybe coming in around Immortal time and usually not going shields until Col time or if they are going Voids and I am forced to go Marine heavy.
Usually money-for-money on the open field, I feel like my early 3 Rax push can take out stuff around the time toss has Zealots / Stalkers / Sents only. So if I wind up on level ground, usually this time is good for a player massing early MM. What kills me during this time is Senturies at the ramp. I cannot push past the ramp on someone who is using their Senturies and has spent a decent amount on their army as well. If they skimp totally on their army, yeah I can brute force the ramp, but usually Senturies hold this stage of the game.
So if you can be aware of if the T is going to be pushing out with MM, try to avoid level engagements. The ramp is where I always will get owned.
A little after that, I feel really weak to several things. 4 Gate pushes at this time are very strong vs. 3 Rax MM. Longer engagements very much favor toss at this point. The shields recharge and at this point stimpack use does not. If you feel you can draw out an engagement into 2 parts, it can give you significant HP advantages. Forcefields are a really good way to split the troops up into bite sized chunks or force the Terran back long enough for him to have to re-stim.
Void rays usually won't be game ending for me, but they will keep me in my base. They are game ending about as much for me as they are for the Toss when either of us screw up. Remember, the more you try to end it now, you could more easily lose your rays and also lose the game for yourself. Keep them alive and you will keep the Terran player in his base, which is the point of Void Rays. If the Terran moves out without his whole MM force, your ground army should be strong enough to hold your ramp. If the Terran does move out with his whole force, your Void Ray's job is to punish him. A forward probe will let you know if the marines are coming with the army or holding back.
For Void Rays -- remember their job is to keep the T in his base. If his army is in his base and he's holding your pokes, don't try to force it down his throat. They are doing their job -- he's in his base! Just let him know they are there and ready to zap things the second he moves out. Then try to capitalize on your expansion or tech.
Usually when my ghosts arrive and are charged up for EMP there is a small window between then and when a 1-basing toss can get up his good tech for dealing with Bio -- Cols, HT, Zealot legs, etc. This is usually the last big window that I feel like I can do a ton with my Bio before I have to settle down and get some tech and expo. I think for toss, it's important to know if the Terran has not expanded, that time just before your Colossus or HT are ready is probably not safe to expo. It's usually one of my last big chances to win with the early Bio mix before the game becomes almost entirely macro or mistake driven.
So, I guess to summarize, here is what gives me problems at different stages of the game:
Very early, Gateway units only -- Senturies @ ramp
A little after, T2 units -- Void Ray threats or 4 Gate hard pushes, Immortals but usually only at ramp are they a problem. Hard pushes with good forcefield use.
Around Ghost time -- DTs
Around Medivac time -- Colossus, Gateway heavy with Charge, HT
Here is what I consider easy at various stages with MM:
Very Early -- 2 gate techs or light gateway massing when I catch them outside their ramp.
T2 units -- Void Rays that get too eager, early expo with too little army.
Around Ghost time -- Fighting vs Immortals or fighting balled up toss armies, especially on even ground.
Around Medivac time -- Any army without several Colossus or HTs.
|
Most terran i've played against on low diamond in the SEA server opens with some sort of cheese play, so I either defend the cheese and win out right or I lose, hard to get proper PvT practice on the ladder.
Anyway, great post by xDaunt, my PvT mid game focuses on staying alive and out expanding T while I get my tier 3 ready.
|
If you face 3rax early aggression, split his forces by FF the ramp. Kill the isolated part. He cannot enter your base, all the while you get colossus tech.
Again, chargelots are just completely devastating to my TvP. Chargelots DPS is through the roof, and marauder-heavy bio dosn't stand a chance. You are left with marine-heavy which melts to early colossus faster than your few vikings will take it down.
I usually loose to P's going quick colossus and staying defensive t2 by FFing ramp and such.
|
So I'll just post real quick my PvT miracle.
I'm a 500 diamond player (newer division, so I'm currently #4 in mine) and PvT used to be my worst matchup. Now I'm usually winning at 70%+ (if only I could improve my PvP). I'd suggest going to Gnial's thread about stalker/voidrays harass openings.
Basically, I start off with a stalker heavy start and harass his entrance (trying to force tanks/maruaders) and I proxy a Stargate close to his base. If he's gone marauder heavy, I usually build up to 2 or 3 voidrays and then just try to go in and wipe out his orbital command. If he is going marine/tanks to turtle, I'll get Five or so phoenixes, and just continually harass his mineral line.
If I went voidrays, I generally try to expand quickly, harass to keep his attack from coming, and tech into chargelots+carriers+voids. If I went phoenixes, I go phoenixes (to lift tanks)/blink stalkers/chargelots/ht. Either way, your early harass should really be putting him behind, and forcing him to play the strategy you want him to play. I usually gain a significant early advantage, nullifying the Terran T2 advantage, and play for a T3 win. In PvT you MUST be aggressive early, or that T2 push is gonna wipe you out.
|
I'm only a sort of middleish Platinum player, and playing random doesn't really help my win rate or allow me to get better at particular MUs as fast, but one thing I have really found helps me in PvT is armour upgrades. I find them to be far superior to attack upgrades for time/money spend vs benefits gained.
With +3 armour, 1 natural armour and Guardian Shield your Chargelots have -6 damage from ranged attacks (eg. every single Terran attack and enough to nullify the damage of un-upgraded marines). I find that a lot of Terrans I play at this level any way overreact badly to one void ray and end up with LOADS of marines against which those armour upgrades shine particularly. Even marauders only do 4 more damage than marines vs zealots. This is a very dramatic increase in chargelot survivability which I think increases the value of your troops far more than the attack upgrades. I know stimmed marauders can still kite chargelots but that's kinda why you don't just run out and fight him head on in the middle of a field with your entire army. You do need a positional advantage and/or good use of FF to really get the most mileage out of your chargelots.
|
Just tried out 3 gate to HT tech against MMMs. Works pretty effective against terrans. For those of you who want to take a look at a successful HT push from an MMM contain, there's replay #4 uploaded, though as you can see I made alot of mistakes.
Also, I do believe that there's plenty of minerals when teching to HT, so putting down another 3 gates and a forge after the templar archives is manageable even on one base.
|
On August 12 2010 15:38 zealotz55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 15:28 JiSu wrote:
Yeah, I guess I have a BO problem..
Fast VR won't work. I've tried. By the time I had my first VR CBed out, he already had 4 reapers killing at least 3-4 probes with nitro and VR can't really chase down those reapers.. Maybe you'll kill one. And when you take that VR and go to his base, he'll have 3-4 marines which will be able to push that VR out with no problem.
Usually those reapers plays are on desert oasis and kulas ravine. They will go the long route so your probe at the tower is kinda useless..
I'll try 3 gates robo and 2 gates robo out. They seem very solid.
I still want xDaunt's replays against Ts though haha.. he sounds like a very good Toss against Terran
I'm mid diamond btw.. Used to be 2nd diamond but due to "overpowered Terrans" I've lost so many points it's not even funny. reapers should be the least of your worries, spend more of your early resources on at least 2 gates and a good mix of zealot stalkers and sentries before your robo and you should be fine vs any early aggression from terran Edit: same goes with stargates
Ah okay. How many stalkers and sentries you usually get before you put that robo down if you're 2 gate robo.
|
Here are a few notes in response to some of the above posts:
1) I want to be explicitly clear as to when and why Toss tier 2 loses to Terran tier 2. The problems arise when the terran goes very heavy on marines. Once the terran reaches a critical mass of marines (like 15-20+), you need storm or colossi. Massed marauders, in contrast, aren't as big of a problem because you can always pull out a void ray or use chargelots with sentries (this does not work as well if the terran has gone marauder/medivac). The marines are the problem. What this means is that if the terran is doing some build that does not revolve around heavy marine usage, then you can play more aggressively at tier 2.
2) Any kind of early terran pressure is dealt with by opening 1-gate + core + gate. Honestly, you can usually get away with just 1-gate + core and then save money to put down your first tech structure before the second gateway. All you need is a mixture stalkers and zealots. On 2 player maps, I always 10-gate so that I can crush any proxy-rax cheese (reapers or marauders).
3) Scouting is incredibly important in PvT because of the wide variety of tactics that terrans employ. Check for rax counts, rax-unit counts, and other tech structures. One of the reasons why I love opening void ray is that I get a free look into the terran's base fairly early and will know exactly what he's up to.
I haven't really been saving replays and most of my recent games have been PvP (which I hate and suck at). However, I did assemble some replays for someone else showing what I do with void rays. All of these particular games end rather quickly, but you can see the build that I am using and how strong the void ray opening is against anything that doesn't involve a lot of marines. The next time that I play a terran who goes marine heavy, I'll post that replay to show you how I adapt.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-137750.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-137751.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-137752.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-137754.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-137755.jpg)
|
I play mid level diamond (400pts) and I personally really like the TvP matchup. I got stomped last night by a toss player. Basically I went for the morrow build, did a 1 Rax fast expand into 4 rax marine. I had a pretty good econ advantage over the toss player, but I just couldn't push up the ramp because of FF's - early sentries really work wonders lol. He ended up going 4 gate, and pushed me with chargelots and HT's. HT's really messed up my bioball =( Storm on marines + FB on medivacs is really harsh, especially since alot of medivacs will have max energy because they've just been sitting there. To be fair though, I chose not to go ghosts for some dumb reason, probably why I lost that game.
Just my thoughts, but toss players do have a pretty good chance against bio balls. I feel that HT's are the key for them, and not colossi too much since they get taken down by vikings so easily.
|
Honestly I feel that the most important thing in PvT is expansion timing, much more so than in the other matchups. You really need the extra gas from your expansion in order to get your Templar tech up and running in time to combat the Terran midgame push.
I've found that it's generally pretty safe to expand right after the Terran tries an early game push with a couple marines and marauders, since you will likely have a stalker or two alive and can make a couple sentries as you expand. If you're going void rays this is also right around the time when your first void ray finishes so you can harass with that while you expand even if the Terran didn't try an early push.
If you miss that small window in the early game to expand it seems to me that if the Terran is decent at all you're forced to one-base for far too long (until you get up Templar and have a few storms) and you fall terribly behind in the macro game. If you manage to get your expansion running early enough you can easily crush a midgame bio push with storm or colossus and the rest of the game almost feels like it favors the Protoss, since a zealot/Templar army is so mobile and holds it's own very well against bio so the Terran is almost forced to start going mech, at which point you can use your mobile army to deny expansions and keep the Terran on two base for a long time.
|
On August 12 2010 23:38 JiSu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 15:38 zealotz55 wrote:On August 12 2010 15:28 JiSu wrote:
Yeah, I guess I have a BO problem..
Fast VR won't work. I've tried. By the time I had my first VR CBed out, he already had 4 reapers killing at least 3-4 probes with nitro and VR can't really chase down those reapers.. Maybe you'll kill one. And when you take that VR and go to his base, he'll have 3-4 marines which will be able to push that VR out with no problem.
Usually those reapers plays are on desert oasis and kulas ravine. They will go the long route so your probe at the tower is kinda useless..
I'll try 3 gates robo and 2 gates robo out. They seem very solid.
I still want xDaunt's replays against Ts though haha.. he sounds like a very good Toss against Terran
I'm mid diamond btw.. Used to be 2nd diamond but due to "overpowered Terrans" I've lost so many points it's not even funny. reapers should be the least of your worries, spend more of your early resources on at least 2 gates and a good mix of zealot stalkers and sentries before your robo and you should be fine vs any early aggression from terran Edit: same goes with stargates Ah okay. How many stalkers and sentries you usually get before you put that robo down if you're 2 gate robo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
