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On August 11 2010 01:54 xDaunt wrote:
I'm a 600 diamond protoss player, and PvT is my strongest matchup right now (I'm probably running a 80-85% winrate in the matchup). To understand PvT, you have to break it up into Tier 1 early game , Tier 2 mid game, and Tier 3 late game.
PvT is fairly balanced at Tier 1 and Tier 3. At Tier 1, zealots, stalkers, and sentries do well against smaller bio forces. At Tier 3, once the protoss has unlocked all or most of his tech (especially templar tech), protoss has all the tools necessary to deal with anything that the terran throws at him. To be honest, I think that, if anything, toss has the advantage over terran at tier 3 because the toss can abuse his mobility advantage and make it very difficult for a terran to establish any kind of map control, thereby denying the terran expansions.
The problem for PvT is Tier 2. To be blunt, protoss does not have anything that stacks up well against bio masses (especially when supported by medivacs and/or ghosts) at Tier 2. Chargelots, immortals, blink stalkers, void rays, and phoenixes all MELT in head on confrontations. Honestly, I think that there is a balance problem here, but we can save that for another thread.
A protoss player has to design and map out his PvT gameplan with this Tier 2 disadvantage in mind. This means that a protoss player either has to kill the terran at Tier 1 (or before the terran is able to fully leverage his Tier 2 advantage), find a way to quickly get to Tier 3, or secure a large enough economic advantage that the Tier 2 disadvantage doesn't matter. Protoss players who are successful in PvT invariably do one of these three things.
My personal preference is use void ray builds (as do a lot of other protoss players who are good at PvT) because I can make a play at all of these goals at once. If the terran does not have a marine-heavy build, he dies outright. If the terran does have marines, then I can harass the terran with my void ray(s) and buy time for me to expand and tech up to colossi or high templar. At that point, the terran's Tier 2 advantage doesn't matter anymore (ie a MMM+G push is manageable). There are a number of other threads that describe various void ray builds in PvT and how to use them, so I'll refrain from providing all the details here.
Void rays aren't the only answer. There are a number of builds that other players use. However, just keep in mind the Tier 2 window that terrans have to rape protoss and plan for it accordingly.
What I read from this is:
Tier 1 - Protoss >= Terran
Tier 2 - Protoss < Terran
Tier 3 - Protoss > Terran
Based on that Terran has one advantage out of three.
This is something worth complaining about?
For your proposed change at tier two then terran would need a mobility or buff to tier 3 to make it more or less fair at all three tiers.
In all the videos I've watched from Day9, HDH invitational, IEM, etc I've yet to see protoss get consistently decimated by MMM Bioball. I am no pro by any means. But having one out of three chance to have an advantage over the enemy seems reasonable to me.
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On August 17 2010 02:08 barballs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 01:54 xDaunt wrote:
I'm a 600 diamond protoss player, and PvT is my strongest matchup right now (I'm probably running a 80-85% winrate in the matchup). To understand PvT, you have to break it up into Tier 1 early game , Tier 2 mid game, and Tier 3 late game.
PvT is fairly balanced at Tier 1 and Tier 3. At Tier 1, zealots, stalkers, and sentries do well against smaller bio forces. At Tier 3, once the protoss has unlocked all or most of his tech (especially templar tech), protoss has all the tools necessary to deal with anything that the terran throws at him. To be honest, I think that, if anything, toss has the advantage over terran at tier 3 because the toss can abuse his mobility advantage and make it very difficult for a terran to establish any kind of map control, thereby denying the terran expansions.
The problem for PvT is Tier 2. To be blunt, protoss does not have anything that stacks up well against bio masses (especially when supported by medivacs and/or ghosts) at Tier 2. Chargelots, immortals, blink stalkers, void rays, and phoenixes all MELT in head on confrontations. Honestly, I think that there is a balance problem here, but we can save that for another thread.
A protoss player has to design and map out his PvT gameplan with this Tier 2 disadvantage in mind. This means that a protoss player either has to kill the terran at Tier 1 (or before the terran is able to fully leverage his Tier 2 advantage), find a way to quickly get to Tier 3, or secure a large enough economic advantage that the Tier 2 disadvantage doesn't matter. Protoss players who are successful in PvT invariably do one of these three things.
My personal preference is use void ray builds (as do a lot of other protoss players who are good at PvT) because I can make a play at all of these goals at once. If the terran does not have a marine-heavy build, he dies outright. If the terran does have marines, then I can harass the terran with my void ray(s) and buy time for me to expand and tech up to colossi or high templar. At that point, the terran's Tier 2 advantage doesn't matter anymore (ie a MMM+G push is manageable). There are a number of other threads that describe various void ray builds in PvT and how to use them, so I'll refrain from providing all the details here.
Void rays aren't the only answer. There are a number of builds that other players use. However, just keep in mind the Tier 2 window that terrans have to rape protoss and plan for it accordingly. What I read from this is: Tier 1 - Protoss >= Terran Tier 2 - Protoss < Terran Tier 3 - Protoss > Terran Based on that Terran has one advantage out of three. This is something worth complaining about? For your proposed change at tier two then terran would need a mobility or buff to tier 3 to make it more or less fair at all three tiers. In all the videos I've watched from Day9, HDH invitational, IEM, etc I've yet to see protoss get consistently decimated by MMM Bioball. I am no pro by any means. But having one out of three chance to have an advantage over the enemy seems reasonable to me.
Well, here's a more accurate representation of what I said
Tier 1 - Protoss = Terran
Tier 2 - Protoss <<<< Terran
Tier 3 - Protoss >= Terran
I think Tier 3 is very close and only warp in gives the protoss the edge (if there is one).
With regards to Tier 2 and the bioball, I'd have to see the videos that you were watching to tell you what the protoss did right to win. However, there are plenty of VODs and replays out there showing a Tier 2 terran army absolutely spanking a Tier 2 protoss army. Brak_OK's bio play comes to mind immediately. Once the bioball reaches a certain size, protoss simply cannot win without Tier 3 units. Protoss has a similar problem with hydra masses.
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I am also no pro but just another average diamond player. Going to explain how and why i lose to protoss, when i lose.
Against Protoss sometimes i try early marauders with shells. This build dies to void rays. So if you scout it, hide a stargate somewhere and get your autowin. A good terran will try to figure out if you're going void rays. A pro terran will count your pylons and know it anyway, but i'm not that good.
Another build i do often is 2port banshee (standard start not too cheesy), in this case i lose if the protoss pushes before the banshees are out. I could build a bunker to improve this but anyway, if you see a poorly defended terran, go and pressure him. A barracks without addon means he's tech rushing something, not necessarly banshees, could also be a early thor drop or anything along that line. That can be scouted by sacrificing a probe.
That's how good protoss manage to win against me. I hope it helps.
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You cant break up up in tier x. You have to look at timings. IMO its a great MU, because the relative timing advantages constantly turns side.
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On August 17 2010 02:38 Hider wrote:
You cant break up up in tier x. You have to look at timings. IMO its a great MU, because the relative timing advantages constantly turns side.
What do you think creates the timings? 
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On August 17 2010 02:19 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 02:08 barballs wrote:On August 11 2010 01:54 xDaunt wrote:
I'm a 600 diamond protoss player, and PvT is my strongest matchup right now (I'm probably running a 80-85% winrate in the matchup). To understand PvT, you have to break it up into Tier 1 early game , Tier 2 mid game, and Tier 3 late game.
PvT is fairly balanced at Tier 1 and Tier 3. At Tier 1, zealots, stalkers, and sentries do well against smaller bio forces. At Tier 3, once the protoss has unlocked all or most of his tech (especially templar tech), protoss has all the tools necessary to deal with anything that the terran throws at him. To be honest, I think that, if anything, toss has the advantage over terran at tier 3 because the toss can abuse his mobility advantage and make it very difficult for a terran to establish any kind of map control, thereby denying the terran expansions.
The problem for PvT is Tier 2. To be blunt, protoss does not have anything that stacks up well against bio masses (especially when supported by medivacs and/or ghosts) at Tier 2. Chargelots, immortals, blink stalkers, void rays, and phoenixes all MELT in head on confrontations. Honestly, I think that there is a balance problem here, but we can save that for another thread.
A protoss player has to design and map out his PvT gameplan with this Tier 2 disadvantage in mind. This means that a protoss player either has to kill the terran at Tier 1 (or before the terran is able to fully leverage his Tier 2 advantage), find a way to quickly get to Tier 3, or secure a large enough economic advantage that the Tier 2 disadvantage doesn't matter. Protoss players who are successful in PvT invariably do one of these three things.
My personal preference is use void ray builds (as do a lot of other protoss players who are good at PvT) because I can make a play at all of these goals at once. If the terran does not have a marine-heavy build, he dies outright. If the terran does have marines, then I can harass the terran with my void ray(s) and buy time for me to expand and tech up to colossi or high templar. At that point, the terran's Tier 2 advantage doesn't matter anymore (ie a MMM+G push is manageable). There are a number of other threads that describe various void ray builds in PvT and how to use them, so I'll refrain from providing all the details here.
Void rays aren't the only answer. There are a number of builds that other players use. However, just keep in mind the Tier 2 window that terrans have to rape protoss and plan for it accordingly. What I read from this is: Tier 1 - Protoss >= Terran Tier 2 - Protoss < Terran Tier 3 - Protoss > Terran Based on that Terran has one advantage out of three. This is something worth complaining about? For your proposed change at tier two then terran would need a mobility or buff to tier 3 to make it more or less fair at all three tiers. In all the videos I've watched from Day9, HDH invitational, IEM, etc I've yet to see protoss get consistently decimated by MMM Bioball. I am no pro by any means. But having one out of three chance to have an advantage over the enemy seems reasonable to me. Well, here's a more accurate representation of what I said Tier 1 - Protoss = Terran Tier 2 - Protoss <<<< Terran Tier 3 - Protoss >= Terran I think Tier 3 is very close and only warp in gives the protoss the edge (if there is one). With regards to Tier 2 and the bioball, I'd have to see the videos that you were watching to tell you what the protoss did right to win. However, there are plenty of VODs and replays out there showing a Tier 2 terran army absolutely spanking a Tier 2 protoss army. Brak_OK's bio play comes to mind immediately. Once the bioball reaches a certain size, protoss simply cannot win without Tier 3 units. Protoss has a similar problem with hydra masses.
This is my experience, also. You have to abuse recharging shields, you have to harass left, right and center and just avoid all possible confrontation until you've got Collossi or HTs fielded (choice depending on whether he went early Ghosts, or 1/1/1 for Vikings). If you don't take the opportunity to expand, and can't get those units out, say bye-bye to even some Plat-level Terrans. Very frustrating.
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This army composition is unbeatable by any terran army comp:
30% void rays
30% stalker
20% phoenix
20% HT
In order to deal with your air, terran needs a lot of marines and they die instantly in every fight due to storm. Vikings cannot do anything against this as phoenixes are stronger and you also have voidrays + stalker/HT support. If he goes tanks/marauders make sure to lift them with phoenixes, but even if you lose all your ground voidrays will steamroll him afterward.
If you just want to beat bio HTs do the job very efficiently, you just have to avoid the EMPs. There are many ways to do this, hiding them, spreading them, warping them midfight, hiding them in warp prisms and you only need 1-2 storms to win the fight. Once you get both HTs and colossus there is just no way for bio to win.
The only thing that terran can do against storm is praying to havens that he will hit all your HTs (if this happens T will most likely win the fight, but this is very hard to rely on). The only other option is to kite with your whole army as HTs are very slow and they cannot keep up to use their storm (this is not always possible and things such as FF or chasing colossi can make it not worth it).
BTW vikings are not that great vs colossi in terms of DPS or cost efficiency (less dps then a marauder). The good thing about them is they are the only units that can actually attack them reliably but in order for that to matter you need a lot more vikings then toss has colossi. Otherwise your whole army will die before they kill the colossi. Terran then must try to kill a couple of your colossi before the fight but this is obviously not reliable and many times just not possible. The best way to do this is by PDD support but it has its faults.
Of course how you get to that high tech is up to you. But the safest way seems to be to go for the macro game by some kind of early threat from 3-4 warpgates that forces terran to play defensively/cautiously. This allows both of you to take your expos and you can safely tech during that time. Once you hit late game, you can lose only if you are outplayed more than slightly.
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On August 11 2010 01:54 xDaunt wrote:
I'm a 600 diamond protoss player, and PvT is my strongest matchup right now (I'm probably running a 80-85% winrate in the matchup). To understand PvT, you have to break it up into Tier 1 early game , Tier 2 mid game, and Tier 3 late game.
PvT is fairly balanced at Tier 1 and Tier 3. At Tier 1, zealots, stalkers, and sentries do well against smaller bio forces. At Tier 3, once the protoss has unlocked all or most of his tech (especially templar tech), protoss has all the tools necessary to deal with anything that the terran throws at him. To be honest, I think that, if anything, toss has the advantage over terran at tier 3 because the toss can abuse his mobility advantage and make it very difficult for a terran to establish any kind of map control, thereby denying the terran expansions.
The problem for PvT is Tier 2. To be blunt, protoss does not have anything that stacks up well against bio masses (especially when supported by medivacs and/or ghosts) at Tier 2. Chargelots, immortals, blink stalkers, void rays, and phoenixes all MELT in head on confrontations. Honestly, I think that there is a balance problem here, but we can save that for another thread.
A protoss player has to design and map out his PvT gameplan with this Tier 2 disadvantage in mind. This means that a protoss player either has to kill the terran at Tier 1 (or before the terran is able to fully leverage his Tier 2 advantage), find a way to quickly get to Tier 3, or secure a large enough economic advantage that the Tier 2 disadvantage doesn't matter. Protoss players who are successful in PvT invariably do one of these three things.
My personal preference is use void ray builds (as do a lot of other protoss players who are good at PvT) because I can make a play at all of these goals at once. If the terran does not have a marine-heavy build, he dies outright. If the terran does have marines, then I can harass the terran with my void ray(s) and buy time for me to expand and tech up to colossi or high templar. At that point, the terran's Tier 2 advantage doesn't matter anymore (ie a MMM+G push is manageable). There are a number of other threads that describe various void ray builds in PvT and how to use them, so I'll refrain from providing all the details here.
Void rays aren't the only answer. There are a number of builds that other players use. However, just keep in mind the Tier 2 window that terrans have to rape protoss and plan for it accordingly.
oh I love you thanks for that, I'm a Platinum toss and have been struggling against all the Diamond terrans .. just dragged a game out till T3 and I did awesome (won) :D
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EPT
