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On July 01 2010 01:47 Percutio wrote:
2/3 isn't bad.
You spend 500 less gas than the Zerg and walk away with a few Pheonixes left after the fight, which can still harass overlords and kill workers.
It was bad before the patch when the Zerg could show up with 6 Mutas out the gate and (at best, with spotting and reacting with a Stargate) your first Phoenix was barely done 
The cost ratio isn't all that bad, in general. It was just notoriously difficult to actually BUILD that ratio prior to the patch. Now its not as much of a concern, because a very small number of Phoenixes can hold off a small-medium number of Mutas until you can create the bigger blob and push them out for good.
Prior to the patch, muta rushes were a guaranteed way to ensure Protoss were stuck on one base for a ridiculous amount of time while they built sufficient Cannons, Sentries and Stalkers all over the place, or sit back building a big blob of Phoenixes from one Stargate.
It was regarded as a weird and pointless change when it came out, but you have to admire the elegance at how it affected the early game Phoenix-Muta dynamic without affecting much of anything else.
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i feel like that the phoenix is a strong unit. like others have already mentioned, they are fast units, easy to handle and have a nice versatility against other races. you can scout very safely with them because of their speed, you can break terran slow pushes by lifting sieged tanks etc.
a unit nice to have.^^
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I haven't played enough Protoss to say for sure, but as a Terran who has played against them, I can say Phoenix's are annoying, so therefore they get my thumbs up as being good  . They cause me to waste resources on things I'd rather not buy, like Missile Turrets, more workers (to replace ones I've lost), and acclimate my army composition to deal with air harass.
Also, Day[9] commented in his daily with his brother, Tasteless, that going Viking against Phoenix isn't a good idea, since Phoenix's have significantly more health than a Viking. Phoenix kills a Viking 1-on-1 and if Viking goes assault mode, I believe the Phoenix can pick it up. Marauders, Tanks, Hellions, Reapers, and Banshees can't hit air, so their only hope really is Marines, BC's, or Missile Turrets.
Most importantly though, Phoenix's make me paranoid, and I believe it was HD who said if you're losing psychologically, you're losing half the battle.
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It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage.
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On July 02 2010 19:42 SilverforceX wrote:
It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage.
Don't forgot that hey have two shots so 10 Damage per "Shot" against not light.
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Or people could, you know, use it the way it was designed. . . .And as for the whole "Good vs light, bad vs everything else" argument, I give you the Thor. Given it's not air to air, but it has a similar issue. If you wanted it to be a really solid air to air combatant, be prepared to lose one of your best support units.
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On July 02 2010 19:42 SilverforceX wrote:
It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage.
There are many light units on the ground. In fact the primary ground to air units for both zerg and terran are light, as are workers. + damage to light may give it somewhat of a restrictive A-A role, but it's A-S role is still very effective of a harasser and is very good for killing light anti-air resistance. In addition, the graviton beam when used with a good 5-10 phoenix while supporting a ground army can turn the tide of a battle DRASTICLY in the user's favor.
I think there is a much larger problem with the corruptor, as it has barely any effect against the ground. It is definately a stronger A-A model but I think units should have more than one potential use.
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On July 03 2010 01:55 RavenNevermore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 19:42 SilverforceX wrote:
It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage. There are many light units on the ground. In fact the primary ground to air units for both zerg and terran are light, as are workers. + damage to light may give it somewhat of a restrictive A-A role, but it's A-S role is still very effective of a harasser and is very good for killing light anti-air resistance. In addition, the graviton beam when used with a good 5-10 phoenix while supporting a ground army can turn the tide of a battle DRASTICLY in the user's favor. I think there is a much larger problem with the corruptor, as it has barely any effect against the ground. It is definately a stronger A-A model but I think units should have more than one potential use.
I think the corruptor does ok Air-to-Air, but it just kinda doesn't do anything else. And it's not extraordinary, cept against collossi. XD.
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On July 03 2010 02:03 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 01:55 RavenNevermore wrote:On July 02 2010 19:42 SilverforceX wrote:
It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage. There are many light units on the ground. In fact the primary ground to air units for both zerg and terran are light, as are workers. + damage to light may give it somewhat of a restrictive A-A role, but it's A-S role is still very effective of a harasser and is very good for killing light anti-air resistance. In addition, the graviton beam when used with a good 5-10 phoenix while supporting a ground army can turn the tide of a battle DRASTICLY in the user's favor. I think there is a much larger problem with the corruptor, as it has barely any effect against the ground. It is definately a stronger A-A model but I think units should have more than one potential use. I think the corruptor does ok Air-to-Air, but it just kinda doesn't do anything else. And it's not extraordinary, cept against collossi. XD.
I agree. The only thing it's quite extra-ordinary against other than colossi is carriers, with it's high damage and the carrier's very split attacks it's very effective against them. I think that the corruptor needs something more, but I couldn't make a suggestion
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Coruptors feel fine to me because you can tech up and morph them to broodlords.
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I almost want the corruptor to be more like the "Air Roach" than it already is. Maybe another armor or more health. Could have a better ability than it's current one, which is utter garbage from a coolness PoV.
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Well the corruptor already has high HP and very high Armor. Adding more to it would just make it more of the same, and wouldn't really add anything to it. The ability needs a change. it's not at all fun to use, and it doesn't even belong on the unit really
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Agreed, the ability was such a forced change it's not even funny.
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I'd argue they're most useful in PvT. Lift off marauders early on, then later get tanks and ghosts. Plus they're nice for banshees.
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On July 01 2010 01:21 Calamity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 21:08 lololol wrote:On June 30 2010 12:17 Calamity wrote:On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday. On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote:
Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day. Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro? Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro. For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away. Immortals also beat marines in a 1 to 1 ratio, but marines are a counter to immortals. Fact is a phoenix costs 33% more gas than a viking and phoenixes can't be massed as fast. 14 vikings vs 12 phoenixes(equal cost if we use a 2 to 1 mineral to gas conversion) resuls in a decisive win for the vikings. Phoenixes are cost effective only vs mutas, void rays, and units that can't attack back. The only way they can mass vikings against your one Stargate phoenix is if they build more starports with reactors, with your first phoenix you shoudl always scout the terran's base to look for these things. If they do build the starports, stop massing up phoenixes and switch to a stalker / zealot/ immortal/sentry etc. army depending on their army composition. They wasted money on buildings and vikings that can't really hurt ground. If they build turrets to stop your harass, they wasted money on that as well, which is well worth the 33% gas (25 gas x 2 = 50 minerals, 2 turrets = 200 min) BTW, a mass group of vikings is simply not gonna catch up to a group of phoenixes so they are basically free to harass everywhere on the map before the vikings reinforce that area. When they come, run away and the terran will be bat shit pissed off.
What the hell are you talking about?
2 nexii pumping one stargate with chrono boosts will still get outproduced by a single starport with a reactor.
The rest is you going into the realm of X-TR3M3 thoerycrafting, where the toss has perfect scouting info, while the terran has none, and phoenixes will never take any damage, while harassing and will never venture inside the huge viking range, and will magically take advantage of every little gap the vikings leave open and that the terran will continue massing vikings, when there aren't any phoenixes.
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On June 30 2010 06:06 TheGreenMachine wrote:
In PvT there is basically no reason to ever make Phoenix. I mean why would you make Phoenix when there are much better options like Immortals, Colossi, or Void Rays? The Phoenix doesn't even hard counter any Terran air unit besides the Banshee, which can't attack back so the Void Ray could kill just as easily. To make matters worse Marines are a staple unit and can hit air. With them being so cheap and massable it's nearly impossible to make enough expensive Phoenix to deal with them. They will guard any "prime" Grav Beam targets too like Siege Tanks.
First to add to this no one say, "This is starcraft 2 stop comparing it to broodwar"
In BW the game saw reltively diverse units in every matchup at the beggining (or so I've heard)
As the game progressed. The vulture was seen mainly in tvp and things like the MM were seen mainly in tvz. So making the argument that the phonenix isn't useful in all matchups is kind of insignificant. Granted I would like to see all units be able to be used regardless of the matchup but I don't think that is realistic as the game evolves.
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On June 30 2010 06:06 TheGreenMachine wrote:
People bring up the Phoenix Grav Beam for ground mode but really, when is this ability going to make the Phoenix more useful than just making more ground units?
If I have a force of siege tanks vikings and marines and you have a force of collosi stalkers and amd zeolots. The duel micro on both sides your collosi will want to roast as many of the rines as they can before they go down at the same time the vikings will want to take out the collosi before the majority of the rines get toasted.
Likewise if the terrans have any army with AA the phonenixes will either a left up enough and kill enough to make them worth it or it can simply mean by lefting up the mauraders in a MM group that it allows you other units to massacure the rines or other support units while not having to deal with the maurauders even if the phonenixes dont attack the mauraders and simply only lift them up. Also another thing to note is the phoenix is an air unit (well duuuh) If your opponent has lots of anti ground things such as mauraders siege tanks ect. the phonenix won't get shot at while more stalkers and immortals will.
As for vikings killing everything AA remember vikings do more damage to armored units (phoenix is light). Take this for what it is worth as I have no evidence to support this claim as the beta is down. One of my friends told me that in a 1 on 1 fight the phoenix actually beats a viking just barely.
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Phoenix isn't for anti-air. Period. It can fire anti-air, but it's not meant to counter air units. I think that's what a lot of people don't understand. I think an HP buff could help a little, but honestly, it's not even necessary.
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On July 03 2010 04:51 ThePassingShadow wrote:
Phoenix isn't for anti-air. Period. It can fire anti-air, but it's not meant to counter air units. I think that's what a lot of people don't understand. I think an HP buff could help a little, but honestly, it's not even necessary.
Phoenixes counter mutalisks very well and, with micro, can even work wonders against void rays, assuming that the void rays are not in a spot where they can precharge.
EDIT: That said, I get phoenixes more for the graviton beam more than anything else. Disabling key units (like tanks) is money.
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On July 03 2010 05:12 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
I love phx vs terran...
I don't like phoenixes vs terran. (Is terran )
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EPT
