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On June 30 2010 06:06 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Of all the units in the game, one still really bothers me (other than maybe the Ultra, who I strongly feel Blizzard is still tinkering with). That is the Phoenix.
While this unit is a lot of fun to use and really cool looking, it still suffers the same problem it has since day one. It just has too limited of a role for a primarily AtA fighter. Sure it's now better against Mutas when you micro it, but it still basically sucks against every other air unit. Name one unit that the Phoenix beats besides the Muta which can attack it back? There are none.
In PvT there is basically no reason to ever make Phoenix. I mean why would you make Phoenix when there are much better options like Immortals, Colossi, or Void Rays? The Phoenix doesn't even hard counter any Terran air unit besides the Banshee, which can't attack back so the Void Ray could kill just as easily. To make matters worse Marines are a staple unit and can hit air. With them being so cheap and massable it's nearly impossible to make enough expensive Phoenix to deal with them. They will guard any "prime" Grav Beam targets too like Siege Tanks.
In PvZ the Phoenix fairs a little better, especially if your opponent is relying heavily on Mutas. It also does great at Ovie harassing if they are unprotected, and can be used to snipe workers or even Queens. Other than that though the Phoenix is again worthless. It's also easily countered by Corrupters. I see you have a bunch of Phoenix in the air? Fine, I will make a handful of Corrupters to take them on. It's especially easy since Mutas and Corrupters require the same amount of tech.
People bring up the Phoenix Grav Beam for ground mode but really, when is this ability going to make the Phoenix more useful than just making more ground units? I mean with the Phoenix only hard countering Mutas basically, when else would you really NEED to make Phoenix? I would rather make Stalkers, Colossi, Void Rays, etc. They are better vs ground and can also kill base defenses and buildings which the Phoenix is useless against. And there in lies the problem. The Phoenix is never a better ground choice and hard counters way to few air.
The Corrupter is in a very similar boat. Fortunately it can be morphed into very effective Brood Lords after you use them and also counters a lot more air units. It hard counters all massive air (MS, BC, Carrier, BL) and then on top of that counters Mutas and Phoenix too due to it's high 2 armor.
As for the Viking it counters a lot of air units and also has an extremely useful ground mode. It can harass bases and workers and counters just about every air unit in the game save two or so.
Umm... Obvious Bias much?
Phoenix is not just an Air to Air counter, but is also an awesome spellcasting unit, awesome harassment unit, is very fast, and has some of the easiest micro in game..
Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
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I see phoenixes as support/harass units more than anything else. They can pick up key units and whatnot in battles and can kill workers.
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O man don't let Nony read this...
I hate to sound trolling, but the OP is just not a smart player. He is thinking this unit does X damage so it is better than Y unit. When there are SOO many other factors. Stop sitting in the unit tester map trying to figure out how many units beats how many others and go play some PvX games and just TRY them. I can assure you that with the right mindset and control u can find a ton of uses for the graviton beam.
If you talk about counters, phoneix's basically hard counter(probably the hardest counter in the game) any ground unit, especially early-midgame. Except i think thors and ultra's which cant be picked up. And yes i relise that some units can shoot up from ground, but with enough phoneix's you can pick up entire midgame armies. Consider the fact you are shooting a ground unit that count shoot back. Seems like a pretty damn good counter to me...
I will agree though that it seems that in longer games Nony(best example to note) doesn't seem as effective due to the fact of larger ground armies and the ability to invest more resources into antiair.
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Speed, give me what I need. Yeah - the fastest unit that shoots air. Almost unstoppable if properly microed to avoid major battles and constantly harass all over the place.
The OP didn't even include the list of counters to Graviton Beam, but even with this list Phoenixes are very powerful. So here's the list:
Zerg: Frenzy on the lifted unit makes it drop down, and also frenzied units can't be lifted
Terran: EMP (all energy gone; all phoenix shields gone)
Protoss: Feedback (all energy gone; equal health purge -- kills fully charged phoenix instantly)
So, the Phoenix squad just needs to abuse their super speed and avoid meetings with infestors, ghosts and HTs... which isn't at all difficult.
edit: To be fair the acceleration makes it so that Phoenixes aren't moving at top speed most of the time, if only sent between close locations. Their might shines fully in large maps with multiple bases. Then you could send them back and forth between the most distant bases - and nothing could catch them.
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Against T,
you can lift mules, tanks, harassing hellions, and if you have some energy to spare marauders. A phoenix can kill a viking with i think 20 hp to spare. Even with micro, phoenixes can just stay on top of the viking and shoot while moving rendering kiting useless. They work well against vikings because phoenixes are armored like void rays. They also kill medivacs in a bio army.
Against Z,
you can lift queens, infestors, and if you can spare some energy, hydras and roaches. I believe their main use is against mutas. I'm not a zerg player but I think killing a queen will piss off the zerg player and slow down their economy and production. Good for harassing overloads too.
You need to look at the phoenix's unique attributes, its speed and the graviton beam ability. It's meant for harassing the enemy in practically everywhere on the map. It has crazy ass speed allowing it to poke in and out and retreat when they see reinforcements. They're good scouts if your opponent doesn't have that many AA defenses up and if they do, they just wasted some minerals. You can then use them to check expo locations and how fast your opponent expands and harass the main army as well.
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On June 30 2010 07:34 Radiomouse wrote:
people seriously think the corruptor is a good unit to put against the phoenix?
Isn't the corruptor far to slow to effectively kill any micro'ed phoenix?
um phoenix< any other attacking air unit. got to remember corruptor also has more range.
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Did corsairs have too limited of a role in BW? or any AtA unit for that manner?
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Phoenix beats Viking 1v1.
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On June 30 2010 08:18 figq wrote:Speed, give me what I need. Yeah - the fastest unit. Nuff said. (Did you know that it's actually faster than speedlings on creep - yeah, that's fast!).. Almost unstoppable if properly microed to avoid major battles and constantly harass all over the place. ![[image loading]](http://i45.tinypic.com/312tlol.jpg) The OP didn't even include the list of counters to Graviton Beam, but even with this list Phoenixes are very powerful. So here's the list: Zerg: Frenzy on the lifted unit makes it drop down, and also frenzied units can't be lifted Terran: EMP (all energy gone; all phoenix shields gone) Protoss: Feedback (all energy gone; equal health purge -- kills fully charged phoenix instantly) So, the Phoenix squad just needs to abuse their super speed and avoid meetings with infestors, ghosts and HTs... which isn't at all difficult. edit: To be fair the acceleration makes it so that Phoenixes aren't moving at top speed most of the time, if only sent between close locations. Their might shines fully in large maps with multiple bases. Then you could send them back and forth between the most distant bases - and nothing could catch them, plus they flip around those far locations with such speed as if they were using some kind of nydus network.. (; Buuut, you will also need some APM to make optimal use of this technique, while also dealing with all the other aspects of the game, including some main army.
Bwuh? That doesn't seem right. Zerglings have a base move speed of 2.9531, gain about +60% from the speed upgrade (4.6991) and gain 30% on top of that from Creep, while Phoenixes have just 4.25 move speed.
Either Speedlings have a move speed cap of some kind, or it treats move speeds for land and air units differently.
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2.9(1.6)=4.64
4.64(1.3)=6.03
ya, speedling should be faster at max speed
mind posting acceleration now and remember speedlings don't get any accereration boost creep or no, only speed.
if i'm right, then the pic was taken right after the start when the speedlings had yet to accelerate.
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Ah, no, turns out those "speedlings" on the picture only have wings, but still the same speed as normal zerglings - galaxy editor works not as I thought. Okay, withdraw this argument. *edits post* Thanks a lot for noticing.
Still, Phoenixes are the fastest unit that shoots air, so the primary way to catch them is with other phoenixes.
edit: all clear now, 1.6 from speed upgrade, 1.3 from creep, yep.
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Phoenixes are great. I <3 them. They're not meant to be some crazy unit that kills things. I use them to just lift up units in battles while the ground army kills everything else. It's fun and it works.
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the big part of problem :
Terran have reactor
Zerg larve for spam
Protoss no
issue is up the cost 150/100 to 175/150 or 200/150 more and up the attak, HP; Armor for effective cost Vs other race.
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On June 30 2010 09:45 lol.Donkament wrote:
the big part of problem :
Terran have reactor
Zerg larve for spam
Protoss no
issue is up the cost 150/100 to 175/150 or 200/150 more and up the attak, HP; Armor for effective cost Vs other race.
There is NO problem. Phoenix are great. And to try to say T have an advantage in any kind of unit production is just plain silly.
They can be used in every matchup.
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As others pointed out, Phoenix isn't really something you mass to win the game or achieve complete air superiority, rather a support unit - and they're amazing at that. They can really mess with your opps army composition - forcing a heavy mech build go for unupgraded marines or a melee zerg go for corruptors etc - and they still retain some potency even if your opponent tries to counter them.
Apart from their support function, they do actually beat all the air units 1 on 1 bar massives and corruptors, so...
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On June 30 2010 09:45 lol.Donkament wrote:
the big part of problem :
Terran have reactor
Zerg larve for spam
Protoss no
issue is up the cost 150/100 to 175/150 or 200/150 more and up the attak, HP; Armor for effective cost Vs other race.
Yeah, it's not like Protoss has an ability that makes them able to speed up the production of Phoenixes or anything...
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When i play Terran i have no problem Vs protoss in air
I just make reactor and outspam the protoss easy. and pheonix = viking in air/air, so yeah the issue is to make the units more bigger.
You can comparate the Zelote with Zergling and marine, imagine if the zelote cost 50 and HP, attak all to be /2...
protoss = less units than other, big cost, slow and strong
zerg = more units than other, cheaper, weak and fast
terran = in the middle
I play random diamond league and yeah the starport protoss have big problem, and cost 150/150 do you dont really make a couple of starport.
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well, what did corsairs do in sc1?
they harassed Ovies and killed mutas, that was all and yet now they are a staple of PvZ.
what did the scout do in sc1?
they killed BCs and Carriers.
The phenonix fills the role of the sair admirably but i agree it can be frustrating to have no air to air counter against vikings, corruptors and even BCs. even though blink makes up for this a bit, its still very annoying
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On June 30 2010 10:02 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 09:45 lol.Donkament wrote:
the big part of problem :
Terran have reactor
Zerg larve for spam
Protoss no
issue is up the cost 150/100 to 175/150 or 200/150 more and up the attak, HP; Armor for effective cost Vs other race.
Yeah, it's not like Protoss has an ability that makes them able to speed up the production of Phoenixes or anything...
You can't really have chrono boost always...ut yeah multi all stats per 1.5 or 1.75 of pheonix (cost, HP, attak) would be good i think.
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Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday.
On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion 
On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote:
Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro?
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EPT
