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Of all the units in the game, one still really bothers me (other than maybe the Ultra, who I strongly feel Blizzard is still tinkering with). That is the Phoenix.
While this unit is a lot of fun to use and really cool looking, it still suffers the same problem it has since day one. It just has too limited of a role for a primarily AtA fighter. Sure it's now better against Mutas when you micro it, but it still basically sucks against every other air unit. Name one unit that the Phoenix beats besides the Muta which can attack it back? There are none.
In PvT there is basically no reason to ever make Phoenix. I mean why would you make Phoenix when there are much better options like Immortals, Colossi, or Void Rays? The Phoenix doesn't even hard counter any Terran air unit besides the Banshee, which can't attack back so the Void Ray could kill just as easily. To make matters worse Marines are a staple unit and can hit air. With them being so cheap and massable it's nearly impossible to make enough expensive Phoenix to deal with them. They will guard any "prime" Grav Beam targets too like Siege Tanks.
In PvZ the Phoenix fairs a little better, especially if your opponent is relying heavily on Mutas. It also does great at Ovie harassing if they are unprotected, and can be used to snipe workers or even Queens. Other than that though the Phoenix is again worthless. It's also easily countered by Corrupters. I see you have a bunch of Phoenix in the air? Fine, I will make a handful of Corrupters to take them on. It's especially easy since Mutas and Corrupters require the same amount of tech.
People bring up the Phoenix Grav Beam for ground mode but really, when is this ability going to make the Phoenix more useful than just making more ground units? I mean with the Phoenix only hard countering Mutas basically, when else would you really NEED to make Phoenix? I would rather make Stalkers, Colossi, Void Rays, etc. They are better vs ground and can also kill base defenses and buildings which the Phoenix is useless against. And there in lies the problem. The Phoenix is never a better ground choice and hard counters way to few air.
The Corrupter is in a very similar boat. Fortunately it can be morphed into very effective Brood Lords after you use them and also counters a lot more air units. It hard counters all massive air (MS, BC, Carrier, BL) and then on top of that counters Mutas and Phoenix too due to it's high 2 armor.
As for the Viking it counters a lot of air units and also has an extremely useful ground mode. It can harass bases and workers and counters just about every air unit in the game save two or so.
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You might want to see how Nony puts them to use. They're really effective units actually...
And Corruptors are fine... though I haven't played in a while 
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The phoenix is a totally awesome unit and it has a use in all matchups...
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Lol green, I want to see how this turns out haha.
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why not scout and harass worker when playing T? With the obs, u can only scout, but u can start harrassing w/them, forcing the terran player to make rines.
if they make too many marines to counter the phoenix, then not enough marauders to stop ur ground forces
on the other hand, if they dont make enough rines, free tank and marauder kills
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You know that ums where it's 2v2, where each player is 1v1ing in one lane and units are produced automatically by certain buildings. Can't remember what it's called but occasionally when i see a voidray go one on one with a phoenix, the phoenix actually always wins. I'm serious. None of their stats were played around with, and i think the voidray even had the speed upgrade. But then again it's a ums and not a real game so.... meh
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I like the phoenix as-is, but do agree it feels kind of flimsy against most air units besides muta's and vikings (one phoenix outlives one viking, if i'm not mistaken). Maybe raising the base damage and lowering the bonus v light is an idea.
Against marines you'll most of the time be able to just fly away over some cliffs or something before they break the shields.
On your note on the viking having the ground mode mechanic: graviton beam has basically the same purpose; making an AA unit usefull v ground, i personally prefer the beam, because it feels smoother than having to wait ~3 seconds for my vikings to land/lift off. Also, the beam temporarily makes a unit useless, so i imagine having one or two phoenixes to snipe out the ghosts in a huge terran bio ball at the start of a battle would make a big difference.
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I'm confused by your post, graviton beam is an amazing harassment ability and th phoenix is incredibly fast. The phoenix happens to also counter mutalisks. They are also useful against ravens.
You argue that everyone has a counter to the phoenix, but that's horrible logic to use. Following that logic, Marauders are useless because they are countered by banshees from terran, mutalisks from zerg and voidrays from protoss. You're response to that will be "well marauders have their place and will be accompied by AA". Phoenixes are the same way, they can improve the composition of your army, sc2 is still young and I've seen progressively more phoenix as they meta game progresses, give it some time.
I think the more harassment comes into sc2 play, the more you will see units like the phoenix getting more play.
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Great for disrupting a Siege Tank wall while you send in the main army. You can really fuck up a Terran play who goes heavy on Siege Tanks by sending in every Phoenix simultaneously, then letting him crap his pants killing the things while your main force charges in and kills all the non-Tank units.
I wouldn't recommend using them to try and Hit & Run snipe the tanks. They take forever to kill them and you'll just end up losing a bunch of Phoenixes to kill one Tank. Just use them as Tank disablers and let the rest of your army do the work.
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PvT - Have you tried lifting tanks?
Making terran waste money on turrets or rines? high ground sight for blink stalkers?
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On June 30 2010 06:06 TheGreenMachine wrote: Name one unit that the Phoenix beats besides the Muta which can attack it back?
Phoenix beats void rays. What do I win?
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On June 30 2010 06:06 TheGreenMachine wrote: Name one unit that the Phoenix beats besides the Muta which can attack it back?
Phoenix beats viking one on one without micro
There also great for worker sniping flybys, army harass and they're one of the funnest sc2 units to play with
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Lol, from reading the thread title, I thought this was going to be a post about how Phoenixes were overpowered and I was gonna put my +1 in. Phoenix not useful? You must be trolling, hardcore.
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Phoenix/Graviton Beam is very cost effective vs Immortals and Siege Tanks. Also, cost-for-cost they are roughly equal vs Vikings and Corruptors contrary to popular opinion.
While I agree they feel lacking as an AtA unit since they take a long time to kill non-light targets, their main strength isn't really damage it's their speed. You can't really run away from Phoenixes as they are the fastest air unit in the game.
One gripe that can be legitimate depending on your view of what the Phoenix's role is, is that it is very specialized support unit. Having no real AtG attack that doesn't rely on energy, it is very sensitive to army composition, meaning you can easily make too little or too many phoenixes which can cause you to lose a battle/game. I can't really think of any other support unit which is so sensitive to unit composition as a phoenix is.
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As a terran player, I can only say, I fear no unit quite as much as the phoenix in PvT. Sure I can go heavy on rines to counter them(as I'd do, esp if I spot the stargate), but then I don't have a very good unit mixture if I go tanks, since then those god damn phoenixes just lift my tanks and zlots with sentries rape my rines.
As a AtA unit, they aren't the greatest, but they aren't really bad, since all AtA units suck(dmg vice) against the phoenix too. As an annoying fucktard unit, they are really really powerful, I think OP gets thrown out way to much, but they are right up there and T(at least myself) needs to find ways to deal with good phoenix play.
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Strategy Forum Guidelines:
Rule Number 1: Everything you say must be supported by evidence
All I see is speculation and anecdotes from someone who clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Phoenixes and corruptors have their functions and I highly suggest you watch some high level toss or zerg replays before spouting this nonsense.
Edit: Why not, I'll bite.
Other people have touched on the Phoenix's strengths, so let's talk about the corruptor.
ZvP: IdrA uses corruptors to bolster his midgame hydralisk force against colossi
ZvT: A fast transition to broodlords + corruptors can overwhelm the vikings before too many get out
ZvZ: Ling/Bling -> Mutalisk battles are frequently supplemented by corruptors if it gets that far
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You know what phoenix suck at? Winning the game! I think your real complaint is, after loosing a couple of battles in the air where you were plain out matched which happens from time to time. You, in a separate game pulled off some harass, killed almost everything, but couldn't win the game because you only had Phoenix, where if you had VRs you would have been able to win.
Don't worry, it's happened to me too, made me question their legitimacy, it is hard to get the "right" amount. Just keep playing around with their fast harass and scouting abilities, get +1 upgrade quicker when not facing mutas (some times when I know I'm going heavy air I even get it before warpgate tech), and even if you don't win, enjoy annoying your opponent immensely.
edit: I use phoenix when I speculate my opponent is going VRs because I can kill VRs with phoenix better than I can VR vs VR
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as far as i see phoenixes are much like corsairs. they do not become increasingly imba against Air as you mass them, but instead of a researchable weak skill they got a very useful skill for free which unlocks many options + they are harder to take out as there are no scourge and it s annoying to chase them as they move and shoot
i think it s a pretty fair trade splash dmg for a good skill and move-and-shoot
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people seriously think the corruptor is a good unit to put against the phoenix?
Isn't the corruptor far to slow to effectively kill any micro'ed phoenix?
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There is nothing wrong at all with the phoenix. It's easily one of my favorite units in SC2. Once you reach 5+, they become extremely effective.
To OP, try phoenixes on PvT. Trust me. Lifting tanks and sending in speedlots is fun. They are great versus terran.
Now corruptors on the other hand... Ewwww.
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EPT
