Of all the units in the game, one still really bothers me (other than maybe the Ultra, who I strongly feel Blizzard is still tinkering with). That is the Phoenix.
While this unit is a lot of fun to use and really cool looking, it still suffers the same problem it has since day one. It just has too limited of a role for a primarily AtA fighter. Sure it's now better against Mutas when you micro it, but it still basically sucks against every other air unit. Name one unit that the Phoenix beats besides the Muta which can attack it back? There are none.
In PvT there is basically no reason to ever make Phoenix. I mean why would you make Phoenix when there are much better options like Immortals, Colossi, or Void Rays? The Phoenix doesn't even hard counter any Terran air unit besides the Banshee, which can't attack back so the Void Ray could kill just as easily. To make matters worse Marines are a staple unit and can hit air. With them being so cheap and massable it's nearly impossible to make enough expensive Phoenix to deal with them. They will guard any "prime" Grav Beam targets too like Siege Tanks.
In PvZ the Phoenix fairs a little better, especially if your opponent is relying heavily on Mutas. It also does great at Ovie harassing if they are unprotected, and can be used to snipe workers or even Queens. Other than that though the Phoenix is again worthless. It's also easily countered by Corrupters. I see you have a bunch of Phoenix in the air? Fine, I will make a handful of Corrupters to take them on. It's especially easy since Mutas and Corrupters require the same amount of tech.
People bring up the Phoenix Grav Beam for ground mode but really, when is this ability going to make the Phoenix more useful than just making more ground units? I mean with the Phoenix only hard countering Mutas basically, when else would you really NEED to make Phoenix? I would rather make Stalkers, Colossi, Void Rays, etc. They are better vs ground and can also kill base defenses and buildings which the Phoenix is useless against. And there in lies the problem. The Phoenix is never a better ground choice and hard counters way to few air.
The Corrupter is in a very similar boat. Fortunately it can be morphed into very effective Brood Lords after you use them and also counters a lot more air units. It hard counters all massive air (MS, BC, Carrier, BL) and then on top of that counters Mutas and Phoenix too due to it's high 2 armor.
As for the Viking it counters a lot of air units and also has an extremely useful ground mode. It can harass bases and workers and counters just about every air unit in the game save two or so.
why not scout and harass worker when playing T? With the obs, u can only scout, but u can start harrassing w/them, forcing the terran player to make rines. if they make too many marines to counter the phoenix, then not enough marauders to stop ur ground forces on the other hand, if they dont make enough rines, free tank and marauder kills
You know that ums where it's 2v2, where each player is 1v1ing in one lane and units are produced automatically by certain buildings. Can't remember what it's called but occasionally when i see a voidray go one on one with a phoenix, the phoenix actually always wins. I'm serious. None of their stats were played around with, and i think the voidray even had the speed upgrade. But then again it's a ums and not a real game so.... meh
I like the phoenix as-is, but do agree it feels kind of flimsy against most air units besides muta's and vikings (one phoenix outlives one viking, if i'm not mistaken). Maybe raising the base damage and lowering the bonus v light is an idea. Against marines you'll most of the time be able to just fly away over some cliffs or something before they break the shields. On your note on the viking having the ground mode mechanic: graviton beam has basically the same purpose; making an AA unit usefull v ground, i personally prefer the beam, because it feels smoother than having to wait ~3 seconds for my vikings to land/lift off. Also, the beam temporarily makes a unit useless, so i imagine having one or two phoenixes to snipe out the ghosts in a huge terran bio ball at the start of a battle would make a big difference.
I'm confused by your post, graviton beam is an amazing harassment ability and th phoenix is incredibly fast. The phoenix happens to also counter mutalisks. They are also useful against ravens.
You argue that everyone has a counter to the phoenix, but that's horrible logic to use. Following that logic, Marauders are useless because they are countered by banshees from terran, mutalisks from zerg and voidrays from protoss. You're response to that will be "well marauders have their place and will be accompied by AA". Phoenixes are the same way, they can improve the composition of your army, sc2 is still young and I've seen progressively more phoenix as they meta game progresses, give it some time.
I think the more harassment comes into sc2 play, the more you will see units like the phoenix getting more play.
Great for disrupting a Siege Tank wall while you send in the main army. You can really fuck up a Terran play who goes heavy on Siege Tanks by sending in every Phoenix simultaneously, then letting him crap his pants killing the things while your main force charges in and kills all the non-Tank units.
I wouldn't recommend using them to try and Hit & Run snipe the tanks. They take forever to kill them and you'll just end up losing a bunch of Phoenixes to kill one Tank. Just use them as Tank disablers and let the rest of your army do the work.
On June 30 2010 06:06 TheGreenMachine wrote: Name one unit that the Phoenix beats besides the Muta which can attack it back?
Phoenix beats viking one on one without micro There also great for worker sniping flybys, army harass and they're one of the funnest sc2 units to play with
Lol, from reading the thread title, I thought this was going to be a post about how Phoenixes were overpowered and I was gonna put my +1 in. Phoenix not useful? You must be trolling, hardcore.
Phoenix/Graviton Beam is very cost effective vs Immortals and Siege Tanks. Also, cost-for-cost they are roughly equal vs Vikings and Corruptors contrary to popular opinion.
While I agree they feel lacking as an AtA unit since they take a long time to kill non-light targets, their main strength isn't really damage it's their speed. You can't really run away from Phoenixes as they are the fastest air unit in the game.
One gripe that can be legitimate depending on your view of what the Phoenix's role is, is that it is very specialized support unit. Having no real AtG attack that doesn't rely on energy, it is very sensitive to army composition, meaning you can easily make too little or too many phoenixes which can cause you to lose a battle/game. I can't really think of any other support unit which is so sensitive to unit composition as a phoenix is.
As a terran player, I can only say, I fear no unit quite as much as the phoenix in PvT. Sure I can go heavy on rines to counter them(as I'd do, esp if I spot the stargate), but then I don't have a very good unit mixture if I go tanks, since then those god damn phoenixes just lift my tanks and zlots with sentries rape my rines. As a AtA unit, they aren't the greatest, but they aren't really bad, since all AtA units suck(dmg vice) against the phoenix too. As an annoying fucktard unit, they are really really powerful, I think OP gets thrown out way to much, but they are right up there and T(at least myself) needs to find ways to deal with good phoenix play.
Strategy Forum Guidelines: Rule Number 1: Everything you say must be supported by evidence
All I see is speculation and anecdotes from someone who clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Phoenixes and corruptors have their functions and I highly suggest you watch some high level toss or zerg replays before spouting this nonsense.
Edit: Why not, I'll bite.
Other people have touched on the Phoenix's strengths, so let's talk about the corruptor.
ZvP: IdrA uses corruptors to bolster his midgame hydralisk force against colossi ZvT: A fast transition to broodlords + corruptors can overwhelm the vikings before too many get out ZvZ: Ling/Bling -> Mutalisk battles are frequently supplemented by corruptors if it gets that far
You know what phoenix suck at? Winning the game! I think your real complaint is, after loosing a couple of battles in the air where you were plain out matched which happens from time to time. You, in a separate game pulled off some harass, killed almost everything, but couldn't win the game because you only had Phoenix, where if you had VRs you would have been able to win.
Don't worry, it's happened to me too, made me question their legitimacy, it is hard to get the "right" amount. Just keep playing around with their fast harass and scouting abilities, get +1 upgrade quicker when not facing mutas (some times when I know I'm going heavy air I even get it before warpgate tech), and even if you don't win, enjoy annoying your opponent immensely.
edit: I use phoenix when I speculate my opponent is going VRs because I can kill VRs with phoenix better than I can VR vs VR
as far as i see phoenixes are much like corsairs. they do not become increasingly imba against Air as you mass them, but instead of a researchable weak skill they got a very useful skill for free which unlocks many options + they are harder to take out as there are no scourge and it s annoying to chase them as they move and shoot
i think it s a pretty fair trade splash dmg for a good skill and move-and-shoot
On June 30 2010 06:06 TheGreenMachine wrote: Of all the units in the game, one still really bothers me (other than maybe the Ultra, who I strongly feel Blizzard is still tinkering with). That is the Phoenix.
While this unit is a lot of fun to use and really cool looking, it still suffers the same problem it has since day one. It just has too limited of a role for a primarily AtA fighter. Sure it's now better against Mutas when you micro it, but it still basically sucks against every other air unit. Name one unit that the Phoenix beats besides the Muta which can attack it back? There are none.
In PvT there is basically no reason to ever make Phoenix. I mean why would you make Phoenix when there are much better options like Immortals, Colossi, or Void Rays? The Phoenix doesn't even hard counter any Terran air unit besides the Banshee, which can't attack back so the Void Ray could kill just as easily. To make matters worse Marines are a staple unit and can hit air. With them being so cheap and massable it's nearly impossible to make enough expensive Phoenix to deal with them. They will guard any "prime" Grav Beam targets too like Siege Tanks.
In PvZ the Phoenix fairs a little better, especially if your opponent is relying heavily on Mutas. It also does great at Ovie harassing if they are unprotected, and can be used to snipe workers or even Queens. Other than that though the Phoenix is again worthless. It's also easily countered by Corrupters. I see you have a bunch of Phoenix in the air? Fine, I will make a handful of Corrupters to take them on. It's especially easy since Mutas and Corrupters require the same amount of tech.
People bring up the Phoenix Grav Beam for ground mode but really, when is this ability going to make the Phoenix more useful than just making more ground units? I mean with the Phoenix only hard countering Mutas basically, when else would you really NEED to make Phoenix? I would rather make Stalkers, Colossi, Void Rays, etc. They are better vs ground and can also kill base defenses and buildings which the Phoenix is useless against. And there in lies the problem. The Phoenix is never a better ground choice and hard counters way to few air.
The Corrupter is in a very similar boat. Fortunately it can be morphed into very effective Brood Lords after you use them and also counters a lot more air units. It hard counters all massive air (MS, BC, Carrier, BL) and then on top of that counters Mutas and Phoenix too due to it's high 2 armor.
As for the Viking it counters a lot of air units and also has an extremely useful ground mode. It can harass bases and workers and counters just about every air unit in the game save two or so.
Umm... Obvious Bias much?
Phoenix is not just an Air to Air counter, but is also an awesome spellcasting unit, awesome harassment unit, is very fast, and has some of the easiest micro in game..
Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
I hate to sound trolling, but the OP is just not a smart player. He is thinking this unit does X damage so it is better than Y unit. When there are SOO many other factors. Stop sitting in the unit tester map trying to figure out how many units beats how many others and go play some PvX games and just TRY them. I can assure you that with the right mindset and control u can find a ton of uses for the graviton beam.
If you talk about counters, phoneix's basically hard counter(probably the hardest counter in the game) any ground unit, especially early-midgame. Except i think thors and ultra's which cant be picked up. And yes i relise that some units can shoot up from ground, but with enough phoneix's you can pick up entire midgame armies. Consider the fact you are shooting a ground unit that count shoot back. Seems like a pretty damn good counter to me...
I will agree though that it seems that in longer games Nony(best example to note) doesn't seem as effective due to the fact of larger ground armies and the ability to invest more resources into antiair.
Speed, give me what I need. Yeah - the fastest unit that shoots air. Almost unstoppable if properly microed to avoid major battles and constantly harass all over the place.
The OP didn't even include the list of counters to Graviton Beam, but even with this list Phoenixes are very powerful. So here's the list: Zerg: Frenzy on the lifted unit makes it drop down, and also frenzied units can't be lifted Terran: EMP (all energy gone; all phoenix shields gone) Protoss: Feedback (all energy gone; equal health purge -- kills fully charged phoenix instantly)
So, the Phoenix squad just needs to abuse their super speed and avoid meetings with infestors, ghosts and HTs... which isn't at all difficult.
edit: To be fair the acceleration makes it so that Phoenixes aren't moving at top speed most of the time, if only sent between close locations. Their might shines fully in large maps with multiple bases. Then you could send them back and forth between the most distant bases - and nothing could catch them.
Against T, you can lift mules, tanks, harassing hellions, and if you have some energy to spare marauders. A phoenix can kill a viking with i think 20 hp to spare. Even with micro, phoenixes can just stay on top of the viking and shoot while moving rendering kiting useless. They work well against vikings because phoenixes are armored like void rays. They also kill medivacs in a bio army.
Against Z, you can lift queens, infestors, and if you can spare some energy, hydras and roaches. I believe their main use is against mutas. I'm not a zerg player but I think killing a queen will piss off the zerg player and slow down their economy and production. Good for harassing overloads too.
You need to look at the phoenix's unique attributes, its speed and the graviton beam ability. It's meant for harassing the enemy in practically everywhere on the map. It has crazy ass speed allowing it to poke in and out and retreat when they see reinforcements. They're good scouts if your opponent doesn't have that many AA defenses up and if they do, they just wasted some minerals. You can then use them to check expo locations and how fast your opponent expands and harass the main army as well.
On June 30 2010 08:18 figq wrote: Speed, give me what I need. Yeah - the fastest unit. Nuff said. (Did you know that it's actually faster than speedlings on creep - yeah, that's fast!).. Almost unstoppable if properly microed to avoid major battles and constantly harass all over the place. The OP didn't even include the list of counters to Graviton Beam, but even with this list Phoenixes are very powerful. So here's the list: Zerg: Frenzy on the lifted unit makes it drop down, and also frenzied units can't be lifted Terran: EMP (all energy gone; all phoenix shields gone) Protoss: Feedback (all energy gone; equal health purge -- kills fully charged phoenix instantly)
So, the Phoenix squad just needs to abuse their super speed and avoid meetings with infestors, ghosts and HTs... which isn't at all difficult.
edit: To be fair the acceleration makes it so that Phoenixes aren't moving at top speed most of the time, if only sent between close locations. Their might shines fully in large maps with multiple bases. Then you could send them back and forth between the most distant bases - and nothing could catch them, plus they flip around those far locations with such speed as if they were using some kind of nydus network.. (; Buuut, you will also need some APM to make optimal use of this technique, while also dealing with all the other aspects of the game, including some main army.
Bwuh? That doesn't seem right. Zerglings have a base move speed of 2.9531, gain about +60% from the speed upgrade (4.6991) and gain 30% on top of that from Creep, while Phoenixes have just 4.25 move speed.
Either Speedlings have a move speed cap of some kind, or it treats move speeds for land and air units differently.
Ah, no, turns out those "speedlings" on the picture only have wings, but still the same speed as normal zerglings - galaxy editor works not as I thought. Okay, withdraw this argument. *edits post* Thanks a lot for noticing.
Still, Phoenixes are the fastest unit that shoots air, so the primary way to catch them is with other phoenixes.
edit: all clear now, 1.6 from speed upgrade, 1.3 from creep, yep.
Phoenixes are great. I <3 them. They're not meant to be some crazy unit that kills things. I use them to just lift up units in battles while the ground army kills everything else. It's fun and it works.
As others pointed out, Phoenix isn't really something you mass to win the game or achieve complete air superiority, rather a support unit - and they're amazing at that. They can really mess with your opps army composition - forcing a heavy mech build go for unupgraded marines or a melee zerg go for corruptors etc - and they still retain some potency even if your opponent tries to counter them.
Apart from their support function, they do actually beat all the air units 1 on 1 bar massives and corruptors, so...
When i play Terran i have no problem Vs protoss in air I just make reactor and outspam the protoss easy. and pheonix = viking in air/air, so yeah the issue is to make the units more bigger. You can comparate the Zelote with Zergling and marine, imagine if the zelote cost 50 and HP, attak all to be /2...
protoss = less units than other, big cost, slow and strong zerg = more units than other, cheaper, weak and fast terran = in the middle
I play random diamond league and yeah the starport protoss have big problem, and cost 150/150 do you dont really make a couple of starport.
well, what did corsairs do in sc1? they harassed Ovies and killed mutas, that was all and yet now they are a staple of PvZ.
what did the scout do in sc1? they killed BCs and Carriers.
The phenonix fills the role of the sair admirably but i agree it can be frustrating to have no air to air counter against vikings, corruptors and even BCs. even though blink makes up for this a bit, its still very annoying
Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday.
On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion
On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro?
I think it is kinda like scout in SC1, but it lacks the ground attack and now Turrets stronger.
If Pheonix has like a tiny ground attack (may be like worker damage?) it will be more useful. Or increase their mana recharge rate. (less balance problem for the later)
Wow, I came in here hoping to see a comprehensive analysis of the phoenix's strengths and weaknesses, and how best to use it, and I was really excited. Then I got another QQ thread.
Phoenixes are really good because let's say terran is going MMM with a lot of siege tanks. Let's also say that they are in siege mode.
You have 8-12 Phoenixes and a bunch of gateway units. The Phoenixes can flank and lift all the tanks in siege mode allowing your gateway army to stampede over terran's bio-ball. Phoenixes are also really good at destroying medivacs so if he poorly places his medivacs somewhere where you can kill them, thats another use. Harassing workers and scouting are more great uses. You could fly right over his production buildings and lift anything that comes out and kill it if he has no turrets.
Also note that Phoenix beats Viking 1v1 and that they should be used as support to your main army not for harass in PvT. In PvZ their only purpose is harass, but in PvT u use them against tanks in siege mode.
On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday.
On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion
On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro?
Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro.
For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away.
Phoenixes are the only unit I really trust to get the job done v. tanks. Immortals get focused down by the rest of the ground army, stalkers get destroyed by tanks, so on and so forth.
On June 30 2010 11:41 DarkwindHK wrote: I think it is kinda like scout in SC1, but it lacks the ground attack and now Turrets are AOE.
If Pheonix has like a tiny ground attack (may be like worker damage?) it will be more useful. Or increase their mana recharge rate. (less balance problem for the later)
Turrets AOE?
You mean splash? And by that you mean they don't have it?
On June 30 2010 16:22 DeckOneBell wrote: Phoenixes are the only unit I really trust to get the job done v. tanks. Immortals get focused down by the rest of the ground army, stalkers get destroyed by tanks, so on and so forth.
You should try them in PvP. Lots of stalkers + a few pheonixes = lift enemy immortals and stalkers during battle. Even 1-2 pheonixes lifting immortals in a PvP stalker fight turn the tide in your favor.
And really what are you going to have trouble against? Colossi take a while to come out. You can scout DTs. The only scary thing is some kind of huge gateway army and pheonixes can still pick off sentries and lift stalkers.
I sometimes use Pheonix against Terran by using them with Colossus. Terran seems to have a harder time sniping my Collosi when there are Pheonixes around.
They are fine in what they are designed for, which is scouting, harassment, early map control, overlord hunting and muta hard counter. This is pretty huge list what they can do and i think they are fine the way they are. The problem is that ppl are mistaken they are air superiority fighter, an that role thay fullfill kinda meh... VR's with speed upgrade are a much better choice and also for ground support and as dmg dealers. So, if u dont have the APM needed and early map control isnt ur playstyle dont use them - simple as that. They are really fine, no change needed.
The phoenix is probably my favourite Protoss unit. But it takes a lot of skill to use effectively.
I do wonder, as has been suggested, a small buff to its base damage, and a small reduction to light bonus might help give it a slightly better straight up role. Otherwise it's very much a bit part unit that is useful in a lot of situations but doesn't fit any specific role other than anti muta.
A cool idea though, against Terran, is mixing Phoenix with Hallucinate.
A terran at my level (low platinum) generally tends to turtle one base, viking tank marauder. With a good healthy force of chargelots sentries and phoenixes and a handful of stalkers, I reckon you could annihilate that composition with a couple of hallucinated colossi to distract the vikings while the phoenixes took care of the tanks. Then the protoss ground forces can easily take care of the remnants.
Once the collosi have gone down the phoenixes and stalkers can clean up the Vikings..
And that's what I think the phoenix is great at, it makes your other units a lot more potent.
Though, it doesn't stand up well as an air superiority unit which both terran and zerg have.
On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday.
On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion
On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro?
Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro.
For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away.
Immortals also beat marines in a 1 to 1 ratio, but marines are a counter to immortals. Fact is a phoenix costs 33% more gas than a viking and phoenixes can't be massed as fast. 14 vikings vs 12 phoenixes(equal cost if we use a 2 to 1 mineral to gas conversion) resuls in a decisive win for the vikings.
Phoenixes are cost effective only vs mutas, void rays, and units that can't attack back.
On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday.
On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion
On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro?
Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro.
For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away.
Immortals also beat marines in a 1 to 1 ratio, but marines are a counter to immortals. Fact is a phoenix costs 33% more gas than a viking and phoenixes can't be massed as fast. 14 vikings vs 12 phoenixes(equal cost if we use a 2 to 1 mineral to gas conversion) resuls in a decisive win for the vikings.
Phoenixes are cost effective only vs mutas, void rays, and units that can't attack back.
*points at your name* Phoenixes aren't air superiority fighters, really. They're support/harass units. Maybe combined with Void Rays and upgrades, they could be air superiority. But without that, they're support only. And they're damned good at it.
If everything in this game countered everything equally, cost for cost, microed or non-microed... we may as well just play mirror matches all day.
The only issues with balance that need to be addressed are mainly to do with:
- Perfect unit combinations (where there isn't a counter for a race, or the cost is far too great in comparison to the original combination). Also the tech/research needed to get to this 'perfect' combination needs to be taken into account.
- Unit production timing (compared to the counter unit) e.g. if a player can get 9 roaches out before you can produce any units to counter them, there is a problem.
- How fast a tech switch can be accomplished to counter an army (this is still an issue but players are learning to deal with it) (zerg fastest, terran 2nd, protoss 3rd). ------------------
more back on topic... the phoenix doesn't need to be a perfect counter for anything in the game. Not all units have to be as useful as each other, or even have a single specific unit that they beat. Phoenixes give you a tonne of manouverability (sp). You can scout around, chase down overlords, medivacs, harass undefended expansions, lift tanks, beat mutas, lift mules or just... lift up any significant unit in a battle.
Because it uses energy for it's ability, this is a renewable resource. Phoenixs often can lift units up, stop them damaging your units for a few seconds and then fly away without getting shot at once. Reducing the damage of a single zealot, one time, probably isn't worth the money you spent on the phoenix... but multiply this in 10 different battles, and suddenly it seems like quite a good deal.
(Each test was done in the unit tester without any microing.)
This shows that the phoenixes are pretty cost effective against most units without any kind of microing and phoenixes are the air unit with biggest micro potential. Phoenixes are great.
I feel like whenever I try to go a decent number of Phoenixes, mutas actually counter me, simply because the Zerg can build SO many more mutas than I have Phoenixes, and since the Phoenixes don't have splash, muta balls become even more deadly since the glaive wurm bouncing seems to do so much more dmg in this game (I know it's the same, it just seems!). Once I see him going mutas, I react with a second stargate, and still manage to get outproduced, even 2 base vs 2 base! Maybe I'm just playing it wrong.
Phoenix is great in PvT! If you're having trouble with tanks, you'll insta-paralyze his main DPS source, with the added benefit of being able to mega harass all day long.
Also, I thought Vikings beat Phoenix pretty hard, with or withotu micro.
On July 01 2010 00:39 MangoTango wrote: Phoenix is great in PvT! If you're having trouble with tanks, you'll insta-paralyze his main DPS source, with the added benefit of being able to mega harass all day long.
Also, I thought Vikings beat Phoenix pretty hard, with or withotu micro.
I've never used Phoenixes PvT much, just clarifying, a Phoenix can lift a tank in siege mode right?
Pheonixes can lift tanks in siege mode, and they are quiet beefy so they will absorb a lot of marine and viking fire during the battle.
A lot of times you can control them so that they lift the tanks, draw fire from the marines for the zealots to close in and then die or end their ability when the zealots are right against the tanks and the marines. This is awesome because just your zealots alone will kill tons of marines, kill tanks, and cause splash damage friendly fire all over the place.
on phoenix verse muta: until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about. in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that. phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday.
On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion
On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro?
Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro.
For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away.
Immortals also beat marines in a 1 to 1 ratio, but marines are a counter to immortals. Fact is a phoenix costs 33% more gas than a viking and phoenixes can't be massed as fast. 14 vikings vs 12 phoenixes(equal cost if we use a 2 to 1 mineral to gas conversion) resuls in a decisive win for the vikings.
Phoenixes are cost effective only vs mutas, void rays, and units that can't attack back.
The only way they can mass vikings against your one Stargate phoenix is if they build more starports with reactors, with your first phoenix you shoudl always scout the terran's base to look for these things. If they do build the starports, stop massing up phoenixes and switch to a stalker / zealot/ immortal/sentry etc. army depending on their army composition. They wasted money on buildings and vikings that can't really hurt ground. If they build turrets to stop your harass, they wasted money on that as well, which is well worth the 33% gas (25 gas x 2 = 50 minerals, 2 turrets = 200 min) BTW, a mass group of vikings is simply not gonna catch up to a group of phoenixes so they are basically free to harass everywhere on the map before the vikings reinforce that area. When they come, run away and the terran will be bat shit pissed off.
On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote: yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta: until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about. in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that. phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
I dunno, I've tried really hard to micro the Phoenixes so that they are shooting the mutas but not getting hit, but I feel like it's the same concept as SC1 Muta vs Archon, where it's really hard to get off the Phoenix shot without getting hit back... but maybe it's just me :-/. Like I said I don't have too much experience yet so I'm not sure.
On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote: A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less.
1 Pheonix will win decisively over a muta. This doesn't change as the numbers go up.
On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote: yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta: until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about. in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that. phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas.
I guess I exaggerated the significance of the defense micro, but it's quality.
more important is when their mutas chase you into a group of stalkers or cannons or even a sentry with guardian shield and decide they don't like the fight, but mutas can't run from phoenix. If they ever over-commit the slightest bit they should lose at least half of them as you chase them all over the map (they also have this subconscious tendency of retreating towards wherever they keep their overlords)
On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote: yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta: until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about. in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that. phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas.
Well not if you get outmassed super quickly... for example say you have 6 Phoenixes out and the Zerg has 6 mutas out, you're going to win. You have 2 stargates. By the time you have 10 Phoenixes the Zerg will have ~16-18 Mutas and you're going to decisively lose the air battle, especially because as the numbers go up Mutas ARE more effective vs Phoenixes because of Glaive Wurm.
Thus I would suspect 3 mutas would fare much better vs 3 Phoenixes than 1 muta vs 1 Phoenix (although they'd both lose, the 3 mutas would lose to a lesser degree, and mutas are cheaper).
On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote: A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less.
1 Pheonix will win decisively over a muta. This doesn't change as the numbers go up.
On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote: yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta: until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about. in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that. phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas.
Well not if you get outmassed super quickly... for example say you have 6 Phoenixes out and the Zerg has 6 mutas out, you're going to win. You have 2 stargates. By the time you have 10 Phoenixes the Zerg will have ~16-18 Mutas and you're going to decisively lose the air battle, especially because as the numbers go up Mutas ARE more effective vs Phoenixes because of Glaive Wurm.
Thus I would suspect 3 mutas would fare much better vs 3 Phoenixes than 1 muta vs 1 Phoenix (although they'd both lose, the 3 mutas would lose to a lesser degree, and mutas are cheaper).
10 pheonixes can beat 16 mutas with no micro. Against 18 mutas the Pheonixes lose, but they leave 6-8 mutas alive. So in that case, the Pheonixes are still close to cost effectiveness, not to mention you can add any number of gateway units to make it even.
Edit: Also, even as numbers go up Pheonixes remain extremely good against mutas. I tested this up to 150 supply mutas, which lose to as little as 108 supply Pheonixes.
On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote: A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less.
1 Pheonix will win decisively over a muta. This doesn't change as the numbers go up.
On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote: yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta: until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about. in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that. phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas.
Well not if you get outmassed super quickly... for example say you have 6 Phoenixes out and the Zerg has 6 mutas out, you're going to win. You have 2 stargates. By the time you have 10 Phoenixes the Zerg will have ~16-18 Mutas and you're going to decisively lose the air battle, especially because as the numbers go up Mutas ARE more effective vs Phoenixes because of Glaive Wurm.
Thus I would suspect 3 mutas would fare much better vs 3 Phoenixes than 1 muta vs 1 Phoenix (although they'd both lose, the 3 mutas would lose to a lesser degree, and mutas are cheaper).
10 pheonixes can beat 16 mutas with no micro. Against 18 mutas the Pheonixes lose, but they leave 6-8 mutas alive. So in that case, the Pheonixes are still close to cost effectiveness, not to mention you can add any number of gateway units to make it even.
Can they really O_O. My bad.
EDIT: Can I also clarify guardian shield DOES work on flying units? Aka guardian shield will shield my Phoenix from Muta?
On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday.
On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion
On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro?
Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro.
For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away.
Immortals also beat marines in a 1 to 1 ratio, but marines are a counter to immortals. Fact is a phoenix costs 33% more gas than a viking and phoenixes can't be massed as fast. 14 vikings vs 12 phoenixes(equal cost if we use a 2 to 1 mineral to gas conversion) resuls in a decisive win for the vikings.
Phoenixes are cost effective only vs mutas, void rays, and units that can't attack back.
The only way they can mass vikings against your one Stargate phoenix is if they build more starports with reactors, with your first phoenix you shoudl always scout the terran's base to look for these things. If they do build the starports, stop massing up phoenixes and switch to a stalker / zealot/ immortal/sentry etc. army depending on their army composition. They wasted money on buildings and vikings that can't really hurt ground. If they build turrets to stop your harass, they wasted money on that as well, which is well worth the 33% gas (25 gas x 2 = 50 minerals, 2 turrets = 200 min) BTW, a mass group of vikings is simply not gonna catch up to a group of phoenixes so they are basically free to harass everywhere on the map before the vikings reinforce that area. When they come, run away and the terran will be bat shit pissed off.
On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote: A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less.
1 Pheonix will win decisively over a muta. This doesn't change as the numbers go up.
On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote: yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta: until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about. in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that. phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas.
Well not if you get outmassed super quickly... for example say you have 6 Phoenixes out and the Zerg has 6 mutas out, you're going to win. You have 2 stargates. By the time you have 10 Phoenixes the Zerg will have ~16-18 Mutas and you're going to decisively lose the air battle, especially because as the numbers go up Mutas ARE more effective vs Phoenixes because of Glaive Wurm.
Thus I would suspect 3 mutas would fare much better vs 3 Phoenixes than 1 muta vs 1 Phoenix (although they'd both lose, the 3 mutas would lose to a lesser degree, and mutas are cheaper).
10 pheonixes can beat 16 mutas with no micro. Against 18 mutas the Pheonixes lose, but they leave 6-8 mutas alive. So in that case, the Pheonixes are still close to cost effectiveness, not to mention you can add any number of gateway units to make it even.
Can they really O_O. My bad.
EDIT: Can I also clarify guardian shield DOES work on flying units? Aka guardian shield will shield my Phoenix from Muta?
Yeah, Guardian shield works on air units. Add in a sentry or two and things just get nasty for the Mutas. It just about removes glave wurm from the equation.
EDIT: Tried this out in unit tester: 10 Pheonixes and 1 sentry (Two guardian shields) beat 18 mutas with six near full health pheonixes and the sentry still alive. Even if the mutas sniped the sentry first, five Pheonixes survived.
On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote: A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less.
Nobody makes ONE Muta.
One Phoenix can counter like 8 Mutas since the moving shot thing. Its not foolproof, but it gives Protoss the ability to thwart early Muta harassment with a very small number of Phoenixes because it allows you to fire at them, without them being able to fire back.
Prior to the patch, you absolutely HAD to have 2 Phoenixes to every 3 Mutalisks if you were going to win the fight. The moving shot thing made a HUUUUUUUGE difference to how effectively the Phoenix counters the Muta, and it works out well.
In small-scale Phoenix vs Muta battles (1v3, 2v4, etc) the Phoenixes can fairly easily dance around the Mutas and inflict damage without getting hit. This gave Protoss a MUCH needed helping hand against early Muta harassment.
In large-scale Phoenix vs Muta battles (10+ vs 10+) the Protoss can't really kite the same way (unless he can build one little blob and maintain it, which is very tough micro) and the Protoss is then required to hit that magic 2:3 ratio in order to win the fight, same as before.
Economy-wise, if you go with a small number of Mutas, you're likely to see 150/100 (1 Phoenix) counter the crap out of 300/300 (3 Mutas). But when you get to much larger numbers, the Protoss needs to spend around 1500/1000 (10 Phoenixes) just to beat 1500/1500 (15 Mutas).
You spend 500 less gas than the Zerg and walk away with a few Pheonixes left after the fight, which can still harass overlords and kill workers.
Not to mention that Toss can always add in stalkers or sentries to help the Pheonixes, while Zerg is probably not going to have hydras and mutas at the same time.
On July 01 2010 01:47 Percutio wrote: 2/3 isn't bad.
You spend 500 less gas than the Zerg and walk away with a few Pheonixes left after the fight, which can still harass overlords and kill workers.
It was bad before the patch when the Zerg could show up with 6 Mutas out the gate and (at best, with spotting and reacting with a Stargate) your first Phoenix was barely done
The cost ratio isn't all that bad, in general. It was just notoriously difficult to actually BUILD that ratio prior to the patch. Now its not as much of a concern, because a very small number of Phoenixes can hold off a small-medium number of Mutas until you can create the bigger blob and push them out for good.
Prior to the patch, muta rushes were a guaranteed way to ensure Protoss were stuck on one base for a ridiculous amount of time while they built sufficient Cannons, Sentries and Stalkers all over the place, or sit back building a big blob of Phoenixes from one Stargate.
It was regarded as a weird and pointless change when it came out, but you have to admire the elegance at how it affected the early game Phoenix-Muta dynamic without affecting much of anything else.
i feel like that the phoenix is a strong unit. like others have already mentioned, they are fast units, easy to handle and have a nice versatility against other races. you can scout very safely with them because of their speed, you can break terran slow pushes by lifting sieged tanks etc. a unit nice to have.^^
I haven't played enough Protoss to say for sure, but as a Terran who has played against them, I can say Phoenix's are annoying, so therefore they get my thumbs up as being good . They cause me to waste resources on things I'd rather not buy, like Missile Turrets, more workers (to replace ones I've lost), and acclimate my army composition to deal with air harass.
Also, Day[9] commented in his daily with his brother, Tasteless, that going Viking against Phoenix isn't a good idea, since Phoenix's have significantly more health than a Viking. Phoenix kills a Viking 1-on-1 and if Viking goes assault mode, I believe the Phoenix can pick it up. Marauders, Tanks, Hellions, Reapers, and Banshees can't hit air, so their only hope really is Marines, BC's, or Missile Turrets.
Most importantly though, Phoenix's make me paranoid, and I believe it was HD who said if you're losing psychologically, you're losing half the battle.
It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage.
On July 02 2010 19:42 SilverforceX wrote: It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage.
Don't forgot that hey have two shots so 10 Damage per "Shot" against not light.
Or people could, you know, use it the way it was designed. . . .And as for the whole "Good vs light, bad vs everything else" argument, I give you the Thor. Given it's not air to air, but it has a similar issue. If you wanted it to be a really solid air to air combatant, be prepared to lose one of your best support units.
On July 02 2010 19:42 SilverforceX wrote: It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage.
There are many light units on the ground. In fact the primary ground to air units for both zerg and terran are light, as are workers. + damage to light may give it somewhat of a restrictive A-A role, but it's A-S role is still very effective of a harasser and is very good for killing light anti-air resistance. In addition, the graviton beam when used with a good 5-10 phoenix while supporting a ground army can turn the tide of a battle DRASTICLY in the user's favor.
I think there is a much larger problem with the corruptor, as it has barely any effect against the ground. It is definately a stronger A-A model but I think units should have more than one potential use.
On July 02 2010 19:42 SilverforceX wrote: It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage.
There are many light units on the ground. In fact the primary ground to air units for both zerg and terran are light, as are workers. + damage to light may give it somewhat of a restrictive A-A role, but it's A-S role is still very effective of a harasser and is very good for killing light anti-air resistance. In addition, the graviton beam when used with a good 5-10 phoenix while supporting a ground army can turn the tide of a battle DRASTICLY in the user's favor.
I think there is a much larger problem with the corruptor, as it has barely any effect against the ground. It is definately a stronger A-A model but I think units should have more than one potential use.
I think the corruptor does ok Air-to-Air, but it just kinda doesn't do anything else. And it's not extraordinary, cept against collossi. XD.
On July 02 2010 19:42 SilverforceX wrote: It's the 5 + 5 light dmg that makes phoenix lackluster, good vs light, useless vs anything else. Way too restrictive in its niche role. Should be 7 + 3 light, general AA thats OK vs everything not great. The base of 5 means armor really screws up the damage.
There are many light units on the ground. In fact the primary ground to air units for both zerg and terran are light, as are workers. + damage to light may give it somewhat of a restrictive A-A role, but it's A-S role is still very effective of a harasser and is very good for killing light anti-air resistance. In addition, the graviton beam when used with a good 5-10 phoenix while supporting a ground army can turn the tide of a battle DRASTICLY in the user's favor.
I think there is a much larger problem with the corruptor, as it has barely any effect against the ground. It is definately a stronger A-A model but I think units should have more than one potential use.
I think the corruptor does ok Air-to-Air, but it just kinda doesn't do anything else. And it's not extraordinary, cept against collossi. XD.
I agree. The only thing it's quite extra-ordinary against other than colossi is carriers, with it's high damage and the carrier's very split attacks it's very effective against them. I think that the corruptor needs something more, but I couldn't make a suggestion
I almost want the corruptor to be more like the "Air Roach" than it already is. Maybe another armor or more health. Could have a better ability than it's current one, which is utter garbage from a coolness PoV.
Well the corruptor already has high HP and very high Armor. Adding more to it would just make it more of the same, and wouldn't really add anything to it. The ability needs a change. it's not at all fun to use, and it doesn't even belong on the unit really
On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday.
On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion
On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day.
Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro?
Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro.
For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away.
Immortals also beat marines in a 1 to 1 ratio, but marines are a counter to immortals. Fact is a phoenix costs 33% more gas than a viking and phoenixes can't be massed as fast. 14 vikings vs 12 phoenixes(equal cost if we use a 2 to 1 mineral to gas conversion) resuls in a decisive win for the vikings.
Phoenixes are cost effective only vs mutas, void rays, and units that can't attack back.
The only way they can mass vikings against your one Stargate phoenix is if they build more starports with reactors, with your first phoenix you shoudl always scout the terran's base to look for these things. If they do build the starports, stop massing up phoenixes and switch to a stalker / zealot/ immortal/sentry etc. army depending on their army composition. They wasted money on buildings and vikings that can't really hurt ground. If they build turrets to stop your harass, they wasted money on that as well, which is well worth the 33% gas (25 gas x 2 = 50 minerals, 2 turrets = 200 min) BTW, a mass group of vikings is simply not gonna catch up to a group of phoenixes so they are basically free to harass everywhere on the map before the vikings reinforce that area. When they come, run away and the terran will be bat shit pissed off.
What the hell are you talking about? 2 nexii pumping one stargate with chrono boosts will still get outproduced by a single starport with a reactor. The rest is you going into the realm of X-TR3M3 thoerycrafting, where the toss has perfect scouting info, while the terran has none, and phoenixes will never take any damage, while harassing and will never venture inside the huge viking range, and will magically take advantage of every little gap the vikings leave open and that the terran will continue massing vikings, when there aren't any phoenixes.
On June 30 2010 06:06 TheGreenMachine wrote: In PvT there is basically no reason to ever make Phoenix. I mean why would you make Phoenix when there are much better options like Immortals, Colossi, or Void Rays? The Phoenix doesn't even hard counter any Terran air unit besides the Banshee, which can't attack back so the Void Ray could kill just as easily. To make matters worse Marines are a staple unit and can hit air. With them being so cheap and massable it's nearly impossible to make enough expensive Phoenix to deal with them. They will guard any "prime" Grav Beam targets too like Siege Tanks.
First to add to this no one say, "This is starcraft 2 stop comparing it to broodwar" In BW the game saw reltively diverse units in every matchup at the beggining (or so I've heard) As the game progressed. The vulture was seen mainly in tvp and things like the MM were seen mainly in tvz. So making the argument that the phonenix isn't useful in all matchups is kind of insignificant. Granted I would like to see all units be able to be used regardless of the matchup but I don't think that is realistic as the game evolves.
edit:
On June 30 2010 06:06 TheGreenMachine wrote:
People bring up the Phoenix Grav Beam for ground mode but really, when is this ability going to make the Phoenix more useful than just making more ground units?
If I have a force of siege tanks vikings and marines and you have a force of collosi stalkers and amd zeolots. The duel micro on both sides your collosi will want to roast as many of the rines as they can before they go down at the same time the vikings will want to take out the collosi before the majority of the rines get toasted.
Likewise if the terrans have any army with AA the phonenixes will either a left up enough and kill enough to make them worth it or it can simply mean by lefting up the mauraders in a MM group that it allows you other units to massacure the rines or other support units while not having to deal with the maurauders even if the phonenixes dont attack the mauraders and simply only lift them up. Also another thing to note is the phoenix is an air unit (well duuuh) If your opponent has lots of anti ground things such as mauraders siege tanks ect. the phonenix won't get shot at while more stalkers and immortals will.
As for vikings killing everything AA remember vikings do more damage to armored units (phoenix is light). Take this for what it is worth as I have no evidence to support this claim as the beta is down. One of my friends told me that in a 1 on 1 fight the phoenix actually beats a viking just barely.
Phoenix isn't for anti-air. Period. It can fire anti-air, but it's not meant to counter air units. I think that's what a lot of people don't understand. I think an HP buff could help a little, but honestly, it's not even necessary.
On July 03 2010 04:51 ThePassingShadow wrote: Phoenix isn't for anti-air. Period. It can fire anti-air, but it's not meant to counter air units. I think that's what a lot of people don't understand. I think an HP buff could help a little, but honestly, it's not even necessary.
Phoenixes counter mutalisks very well and, with micro, can even work wonders against void rays, assuming that the void rays are not in a spot where they can precharge.
EDIT: That said, I get phoenixes more for the graviton beam more than anything else. Disabling key units (like tanks) is money.
lol, phoenixes are awesome. and even though nony + day[9] have improved the phoenix's reception among the community, the phoenix is still way better than people give 'em credit for.
Phoenixes are obviously not underpowered, the problem is they are advertised as blizzard as an air superiority unit. Which is just not true, they are a good unit with many uses, but they are just simply NOT an air superiority unit
Corruptors are crappy cause they only deal with massive units, and their special attack is absolutely horrible (unstrategic, unoriginal, too simple to use) compared to the phoenix's or any unit for that fact - except the infestor and overseer who are also horrible ATM.
Phoenix is overall a good AtA unit like the corsair or devourer, but can also use it's special ability. Many people thought phoenix was horrible when the game came out, but they didn't realize how fast the unit shoots (fastest air aside form BC/carrier/VR), and that it has quite a bit of health/shields. I thought it was hilarious when people were saying that phoenixes would loose when phoenixes outnumbered mutas 1.5:1, because it's really a 1:1.8 ratio in favor of the phoenix.
I personally think phoenix is pretty balanced. Maybe it should cost 25 less minerals, but I don't think that would change much. I think infestor and corruptor are much more troublesome units right now.
Infestors have their own uses, and personally I think they are pretty strong.
I think the overseer and corruptor need small buffs. If the corruptor did something like +6 extra damage to massive, or +2 damage overall, it would be quiet a bit more useful. It would also be a lot more useful if it had a better ability, like ensnare from Broodwar.
On July 04 2010 09:15 Percutio wrote: Infestors have their own uses, and personally I think they are pretty strong.
I think the overseer and corruptor need small buffs. If the corruptor did something like +6 extra damage to massive, or +2 damage overall, it would be quiet a bit more useful. It would also be a lot more useful if it had a better ability, like ensnare from Broodwar.
I think overseer is fine but give back the corruptor it's contaminate spell. It's just so uni purposed as it's basically anti-air and a brood lord unit.
I think the overseer should be able to produce infested terrans that don't die after a small time limit. It would at least make the overseer a little less crappy than a Raven.
Contaminate seems fine on Overseers, as they are a little fast and it would help them be minor harass and scouting tools. I just think that ensnare would help Corruptors a lot, because it would help the Zerg army overall, especially with any Broodlords later on.
Back on topic, I think the Pheonix has two major strengths that allow it to be useful.
1. It can do a lot of painful harassment, and usually it will lose nothing during the harass because of its speed.
2. Pheonixes can neutralize important units like Siege Tanks, Ghosts, Immortals, Queens, ect. because of graviton beam.
On July 04 2010 09:46 Percutio wrote: I think the overseer should be able to produce infested terrans that don't die after a small time limit. It would at least make the overseer a little less crappy than a Raven.
Contaminate seems fine on Overseers, as they are a little fast and it would help them be minor harass and scouting tools. I just think that ensnare would help Corruptors a lot, because it would help the Zerg army overall, especially with any Broodlords later on.
Back on topic, I think the Pheonix has two major strengths that allow it to be useful.
1. It can do a lot of painful harassment, and usually it will lose nothing during the harass because of its speed.
2. Pheonixes can neutralize important units like Siege Tanks, Ghosts, Immortals, Queens, ect. because of graviton beam.
This makes the Pheonix an awesome midgame unit.
Infested Terran needs to do more, so I agree with you on that. I don't think that Corruptors need ensnare. They already have fungal growth with infestors with traps and damages units. If they made corruptors with ensnare, it'll be corruptors + brood lords domination. Brood lords are slow so that units can run away from them. Infestors are sometimes used in combo with Brood lords to trap and murder them, but atleast infestors are weak. Give corruptors the ability to slow units and it will stream roll any ground army.
The reason ppl bitch about the pheonix is because they keep comparing (in the back of their minds) to the corsair where 4 'sairs could beat like 12 mutas. So the phoenix isn't a sair... but it has gravitron that doesn't require fleet beacon. Think about if disruption web did not require fleetbeacon research... think about how imba that would be.
I can understand where the OP is coming from but I have "seen the light" regarding Phoenixes and I am beginning to understand how cool of a unit they are. Its just so much fun to harass the crap out of an opponent's mineral lines, especially later in the game when he has a couple of bases. It forces him to build static defenses that he doesn't want or go heavy anti-air which opens things up with your ground army. He also has to move his units in large groups because a pack of Phoenixes can pick off small groups so easily. When well used, the Phoenix can completely disrupt an opponent's gameplan in a way that very few units can match.
I do find it really frustrating that the Phoenix has no way to attack buildings but I also realize that is not their role. A Phoenix can't literally win you the game but it can pretty much make the win a guarantee.
I view the Phoenix as more of a harass/support unit rather than a straight up AtA fighter. If youre using phoenix's to combat other air then I suggest you start trying out other strategies.
the problem is, that you're looking at phoenix as an anti-air unit, when it really is an anti-ground/harassment unit. If a phoenix that can kill ground units so well can also dominate on air, that won't be fair for the other races.
phoenixes are useful in meching terran, which IMO counters any ground army of protoss. especially in a 200-200 fight, pure ground army of protoss is not a match for a hellion/tank/thor/raven force.
Corrupters are far better than people think. Sure they do bonus dmg against massive, but they are very decent against normal units. By no means are they a useless unit that can only counter massive. Why is their special attack horrible? Apart from the unoriginality, there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. They accelerate enemy death and they are cheap for their effect. Compared to the graviton beam, it lasts longer and it actually make the enemy die faster.
I think phoenix are best used as support troops, harassment and scouting unit. They are fast, they do decent damage to OV, light units. Their mobility is really what makes the unit great. From a Terran's perspective, its sUUupppper annoying when the phoenix lifts my siege tank or harass my SCV line. It prevents me from going heavy banshee or ravens as well.
Here is a couple videos I uploaded on Phoenixes, I have been practicing how to commentate SC2 games, any suggestions are welcome.
On July 04 2010 08:01 Xapti wrote: Corruptors are crappy cause they only deal with massive units, and their special attack is absolutely horrible (unstrategic, unoriginal, too simple to use) compared to the phoenix's or any unit for that fact - except the infestor and overseer who are also horrible ATM.
Phoenix is overall a good AtA unit like the corsair or devourer, but can also use it's special ability. Many people thought phoenix was horrible when the game came out, but they didn't realize how fast the unit shoots (fastest air aside form BC/carrier/VR), and that it has quite a bit of health/shields. I thought it was hilarious when people were saying that phoenixes would loose when phoenixes outnumbered mutas 1.5:1, because it's really a 1:1.8 ratio in favor of the phoenix.
I personally think phoenix is pretty balanced. Maybe it should cost 25 less minerals, but I don't think that would change much. I think infestor and corruptor are much more troublesome units right now.
Terrans didn't think tanks were good when the game first came out. You think corruptors and infestors crappy and horrible. Everyone is entitled to be wrong.
Phoenixes are a must have for any PvZ game where the Z gets his third base. They deny the muta harass and they can anihilate drone line as fast as you g click.
I do not aggre with this at all. The phoenix is great vs tanks. The lift up ability buys you alot of time against tanks fire, allowing zealots to smash the bio army.
On July 04 2010 15:24 Kerrdezzy wrote: I view the Phoenix as more of a harass/support unit rather than a straight up AtA fighter. If youre using phoenix's to combat other air then I suggest you start trying out other strategies.
The problem with the phoenix is it does not fill its needed role as air superiority. As simple as that.
I mean think about it, what light targets are there? Mutalisks, which it does well against if heavily microed. Banshees, which can cloak to escape, and can't shoot back.
The role I would like to see phoenix in is as a non-capital anti air unit. Which is the role it was intended for I think. These things should be designed to keep the skys clear of smaller air units.
It SHOULD be a counter to medivacs, so maybe there is a risk for terran picking them. But it needs a lot more damage and maybe range for that. It should win more easily against equal cost vikings, since the vikings have massive range and can snipe from groups of marines. It should be a counter to void rays, so phoenix can be a viable void ray counter.
My suggestions - Decrease firing speed to .07 from .11. Reduce light damage to 7 from 10.
The effect is a 57% increase in raw firepower against armored. However, unlike increasing its damage per shot to armored it is VERY vulnerable to highly armored targets. This would increase it's damage against mutalisks only 10%, and with a loss of more alpha strike ability. Vikings might need a slight increase in light damage to compensate granted, but they are still beasts with their range.
This makes the phoenix a cost effective counter to medivacs and voids, which right now have no effective air counters from the protoss sides (other than more voids for voids of course, lol)
While this unit is a lot of fun to use and really cool looking, it still suffers the same problem it has since day one. It just has too limited of a role for a primarily AtA fighter. Sure it's now better against Mutas when you micro it, but it still basically sucks against every other air unit. Name one unit that the Phoenix beats besides the Muta which can attack it back? There are none.
I don't think they're primarily an AtA fighter at all. They're great support for a ground army, lifting key units to snipe them. They're also great at harassing.
The role I would like to see phoenix in is as a non-capital anti air unit. Which is the role it was intended for I think. These things should be designed to keep the skys clear of smaller air units.
I don't think that's the role it was intended for at all. If that was it's intended role why give it graviton beam and why put the Void Ray in the game?
Phoenix is one of the funnest units in the game IMO. Armies can't fight back when they're lifted helplessly into the air. :D
Have you ever been a zerg and found someone with a fleet of phoenixes? Not fun. Why?
Well let's put it this way. You zealots, only 100 resources to make, and you have phoenixes, again, cheap units. You fly into a zerg expo "VERY FAST", and airlift the queen. It can't escape. No amount of micro will save it. You will snipe that queen. And you know what? You just KILLED his larvae output, which really means you stopped worker production and army production. You go to his base, you snipe the queen. Again. Now he is limited to 6 larvae at most. Zealots > Hydralisks and good night Irene.
TL;DR: The phoenix is a wonderfully fine unit. It's not super strong, but it shouldn't be. If you want a ridiculous air unit for the same tech, make a void ray.
3 reasons why the Phoenix is great: 1. It's incredibly fast, which makes it a great scouting unit. 2. It's great for harassing not just workers, but picking off queens which I imagine would drive zerg players mad. 3. In PvT, it is SO crucial to have a few phoenixes against a MMM+tank ball. Those siege tanks can be the deciding factor in a battle and using the graviton beam to pick them up for the majority of the fight makes all the difference.
On August 24 2010 11:14 motus wrote: 3 reasons why the Phoenix is great: 1. It's incredibly fast, which makes it a great scouting unit. 2. It's great for harassing not just workers, but picking off queens which I imagine would drive zerg players mad. 3. In PvT, it is SO crucial to have a few phoenixes against a MMM+tank ball. Those siege tanks can be the deciding factor in a battle and using the graviton beam to pick them up for the majority of the fight makes all the difference.
I agree with 1. and 2. but for point three, it's just so difficult pulling something like that off. Sure, it can take out medivacs and tanks, but you're going to need a buttload of apm to lift the tanks, spread your HT's, feedback medivacs, storm, and FF.
On August 24 2010 11:14 motus wrote: 3 reasons why the Phoenix is great: 1. It's incredibly fast, which makes it a great scouting unit. 2. It's great for harassing not just workers, but picking off queens which I imagine would drive zerg players mad. 3. In PvT, it is SO crucial to have a few phoenixes against a MMM+tank ball. Those siege tanks can be the deciding factor in a battle and using the graviton beam to pick them up for the majority of the fight makes all the difference.
I agree with 1. and 2. but for point three, it's just so difficult pulling something like that off. Sure, it can take out medivacs and tanks, but you're going to need a buttload of apm to lift the tanks, spread your HT's, feedback medivacs, storm, and FF.
Errm. If you're going to make Phoenix's against Terran I would say your primary use would be to lift the Tanks, possibly even before you worry about storming.
Phoenix make me shit my pants when I have mutas. Large amounts of them not only kill my mutas (which is how I win a lot of my ZvP) but can screw me over in a fight when they lift a substantial amount of hydras while zealots/stalkers attack as well. And it makes defending expos annoying, as instead of being able to rely on flexible hydras, I need spores.
I suppose I just need more and more units. But phoenix harass is actually pretty strong.
On August 24 2010 09:00 Ascendant13 wrote: The problem with the phoenix is it does not fill its needed role as air superiority. As simple as that.
I mean think about it, what light targets are there? Mutalisks, which it does well against if heavily microed. Banshees, which can cloak to escape, and can't shoot back.
The role I would like to see phoenix in is as a non-capital anti air unit.
I don't understand.
It beats Banshees... Robo+Observer is only 50 minerals more expensive than Cloak and combined Robo+Observer is 5 seconds (or whatever the time unit is) faster than Cloak researches.
It beats Mutalisks... and when you have more range, faster move speed, more damage, more life, and can shoot while moving, the micro really isn't "heavy."
Those are the non-capital/non-anti-air air units. So what exactly are you complaining about? They probably lose against things like Vikings and Corruptors, but that's just ruining your army composition, whereas Phoenix are much better as a support unit. They're not even bad against Terran (though Void Rays are generally better), but largely they are best during an early MM Tank push due to a diluted Marine count and generally smaller armies.
Phoenix is actually cost effective against vikings.
Viking DPS: 10 Phoenix DPS: 9.01
Viking HP: 125 Phoenix HP: 180
The range difference is offset by the speed difference. In general, phoenix can beat the same resources of viking, so it's not difficult for PvT to retain air control. Nevertheless, the problem with over committing to air control is, "what are you going to do with the remaining air unit?"
EPT
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