The problem with the phoenix is it does not fill its needed role as air superiority. As simple as that.

I mean think about it, what light targets are there? Mutalisks, which it does well against if heavily microed. Banshees, which can cloak to escape, and can't shoot back.

The role I would like to see phoenix in is as a non-capital anti air unit. Which is the role it was intended for I think. These things should be designed to keep the skys clear of smaller air units.

It SHOULD be a counter to medivacs, so maybe there is a risk for terran picking them. But it needs a lot more damage and maybe range for that. It should win more easily against equal cost vikings, since the vikings have massive range and can snipe from groups of marines. It should be a counter to void rays, so phoenix can be a viable void ray counter.

My suggestions - Decrease firing speed to .07 from .11. Reduce light damage to 7 from 10.

The effect is a 57% increase in raw firepower against armored. However, unlike increasing its damage per shot to armored it is VERY vulnerable to highly armored targets. This would increase it's damage against mutalisks only 10%, and with a loss of more alpha strike ability. Vikings might need a slight increase in light damage to compensate granted, but they are still beasts with their range.

This makes the phoenix a cost effective counter to medivacs and voids, which right now have no effective air counters from the protoss sides (other than more voids for voids of course, lol)

Torture

Canada221 Posts

August 24 2010 00:56 GMT

#123

While this unit is a lot of fun to use and really cool looking, it still suffers the same problem it has since day one. It just has too limited of a role for a primarily AtA fighter. Sure it's now better against Mutas when you micro it, but it still basically sucks against every other air unit. Name one unit that the Phoenix beats besides the Muta which can attack it back? There are none.

I don't think they're primarily an AtA fighter at all. They're great support for a ground army, lifting key units to snipe them. They're also great at harassing.

The role I would like to see phoenix in is as a non-capital anti air unit. Which is the role it was intended for I think. These things should be designed to keep the skys clear of smaller air units.

I don't think that's the role it was intended for at all. If that was it's intended role why give it graviton beam and why put the Void Ray in the game?

Phoenix is one of the funnest units in the game IMO. Armies can't fight back when they're lifted helplessly into the air. :D

Jeffbelittle

United States468 Posts

August 24 2010 02:09 GMT

#124

Have you ever been a zerg and found someone with a fleet of phoenixes? Not fun. Why?

Well let's put it this way. You zealots, only 100 resources to make, and you have phoenixes, again, cheap units. You fly into a zerg expo "VERY FAST", and airlift the queen. It can't escape. No amount of micro will save it. You will snipe that queen. And you know what? You just KILLED his larvae output, which really means you stopped worker production and army production. You go to his base, you snipe the queen. Again. Now he is limited to 6 larvae at most. Zealots > Hydralisks and good night Irene.

TL;DR: The phoenix is a wonderfully fine unit. It's not super strong, but it shouldn't be. If you want a ridiculous air unit for the same tech, make a void ray.

sl0w

United States447 Posts

August 24 2010 02:14 GMT

#125

3 reasons why the Phoenix is great:
1. It's incredibly fast, which makes it a great scouting unit.
2. It's great for harassing not just workers, but picking off queens which I imagine would drive zerg players mad.
3. In PvT, it is SO crucial to have a few phoenixes against a MMM+tank ball. Those siege tanks can be the deciding factor in a battle and using the graviton beam to pick them up for the majority of the fight makes all the difference.

zhul4nder

United States189 Posts

August 24 2010 02:32 GMT

#126

On August 24 2010 11:14 motus wrote:
3 reasons why the Phoenix is great:
1. It's incredibly fast, which makes it a great scouting unit.
2. It's great for harassing not just workers, but picking off queens which I imagine would drive zerg players mad.
3. In PvT, it is SO crucial to have a few phoenixes against a MMM+tank ball. Those siege tanks can be the deciding factor in a battle and using the graviton beam to pick them up for the majority of the fight makes all the difference.

I agree with 1. and 2. but for point three, it's just so difficult pulling something like that off. Sure, it can take out medivacs and tanks, but you're going to need a buttload of apm to lift the tanks, spread your HT's, feedback medivacs, storm, and FF.

Torture

Canada221 Posts

August 24 2010 02:47 GMT

#127

On August 24 2010 11:32 zhul4nder wrote:

Show nested quote +

Errm. If you're going to make Phoenix's against Terran I would say your primary use would be to lift the Tanks, possibly even before you worry about storming.

dave333

United States915 Posts

August 24 2010 02:54 GMT

#128

Phoenix make me shit my pants when I have mutas. Large amounts of them not only kill my mutas (which is how I win a lot of my ZvP) but can screw me over in a fight when they lift a substantial amount of hydras while zealots/stalkers attack as well. And it makes defending expos annoying, as instead of being able to rely on flexible hydras, I need spores.

I suppose I just need more and more units. But phoenix harass is actually pretty strong.

whateversclever

United States197 Posts

August 24 2010 03:09 GMT

#129

On August 24 2010 09:00 Ascendant13 wrote:
The problem with the phoenix is it does not fill its needed role as air superiority. As simple as that.

I mean think about it, what light targets are there? Mutalisks, which it does well against if heavily microed. Banshees, which can cloak to escape, and can't shoot back.

The role I would like to see phoenix in is as a non-capital anti air unit.

I don't understand.

It beats Banshees... Robo+Observer is only 50 minerals more expensive than Cloak and combined Robo+Observer is 5 seconds (or whatever the time unit is) faster than Cloak researches.

It beats Mutalisks... and when you have more range, faster move speed, more damage, more life, and can shoot while moving, the micro really isn't "heavy."

Those are the non-capital/non-anti-air air units. So what exactly are you complaining about? They probably lose against things like Vikings and Corruptors, but that's just ruining your army composition, whereas Phoenix are much better as a support unit. They're not even bad against Terran (though Void Rays are generally better), but largely they are best during an early MM Tank push due to a diluted Marine count and generally smaller armies.

icyswordrain

Canada4 Posts

August 24 2010 05:16 GMT

#130

Phoenix is actually cost effective against vikings.

Viking DPS: 10
Phoenix DPS: 9.01

Viking HP: 125
Phoenix HP: 180

The range difference is offset by the speed difference.
In general, phoenix can beat the same resources of viking, so it's not difficult for PvT to retain air control. Nevertheless, the problem with over committing to air control is, "what are you going to do with the remaining air unit?"

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