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On June 30 2010 21:08 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 12:17 Calamity wrote:On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday. On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion  On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote:
Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day. Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro? Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro. For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away. Immortals also beat marines in a 1 to 1 ratio, but marines are a counter to immortals. Fact is a phoenix costs 33% more gas than a viking and phoenixes can't be massed as fast. 14 vikings vs 12 phoenixes(equal cost if we use a 2 to 1 mineral to gas conversion) resuls in a decisive win for the vikings. Phoenixes are cost effective only vs mutas, void rays, and units that can't attack back.
*points at your name* Phoenixes aren't air superiority fighters, really. They're support/harass units. Maybe combined with Void Rays and upgrades, they could be air superiority. But without that, they're support only. And they're damned good at it.
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If everything in this game countered everything equally, cost for cost, microed or non-microed... we may as well just play mirror matches all day.
The only issues with balance that need to be addressed are mainly to do with:
- Perfect unit combinations (where there isn't a counter for a race, or the cost is far too great in comparison to the original combination). Also the tech/research needed to get to this 'perfect' combination needs to be taken into account.
- Unit production timing (compared to the counter unit) e.g. if a player can get 9 roaches out before you can produce any units to counter them, there is a problem.
- How fast a tech switch can be accomplished to counter an army (this is still an issue but players are learning to deal with it) (zerg fastest, terran 2nd, protoss 3rd).
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more back on topic... the phoenix doesn't need to be a perfect counter for anything in the game. Not all units have to be as useful as each other, or even have a single specific unit that they beat. Phoenixes give you a tonne of manouverability (sp). You can scout around, chase down overlords, medivacs, harass undefended expansions, lift tanks, beat mutas, lift mules or just... lift up any significant unit in a battle.
Because it uses energy for it's ability, this is a renewable resource. Phoenixs often can lift units up, stop them damaging your units for a few seconds and then fly away without getting shot at once. Reducing the damage of a single zealot, one time, probably isn't worth the money you spent on the phoenix... but multiply this in 10 different battles, and suddenly it seems like quite a good deal.
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This is a copy/paste of what I wrote in another "Protoss air is to weak"-thread.
Test on how well air units do against each other:
No upgrades:
14 Phoenixes (2100/1400) = 16 Vikings (2400/1200)
14 Phoenixes (2100/1400) = 22 Mutalisks (2200/2200)
14 Phoenixes (2100/1400) = 11 Corruptors (1650/1100)
All upgrades:
14 Phoenixes (2100/1400) = 15 Vikings (2250/1125)
14 Phoenixes (2100/1400) = 25 Mutalisks (2500/2500)
14 Phoenixes (2100/1400) = 11 Corruptors (1650/1100)
(Each test was done in the unit tester without any microing.)
This shows that the phoenixes are pretty cost effective against most units without any kind of microing and phoenixes are the air unit with biggest micro potential. Phoenixes are great.
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I feel like whenever I try to go a decent number of Phoenixes, mutas actually counter me, simply because the Zerg can build SO many more mutas than I have Phoenixes, and since the Phoenixes don't have splash, muta balls become even more deadly since the glaive wurm bouncing seems to do so much more dmg in this game (I know it's the same, it just seems!). Once I see him going mutas, I react with a second stargate, and still manage to get outproduced, even 2 base vs 2 base! Maybe I'm just playing it wrong.
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Phoenix is great in PvT! If you're having trouble with tanks, you'll insta-paralyze his main DPS source, with the added benefit of being able to mega harass all day long.
Also, I thought Vikings beat Phoenix pretty hard, with or withotu micro.
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On July 01 2010 00:39 MangoTango wrote:
Phoenix is great in PvT! If you're having trouble with tanks, you'll insta-paralyze his main DPS source, with the added benefit of being able to mega harass all day long.
Also, I thought Vikings beat Phoenix pretty hard, with or withotu micro.
I've never used Phoenixes PvT much, just clarifying, a Phoenix can lift a tank in siege mode right?
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Pheonixes can lift tanks in siege mode, and they are quiet beefy so they will absorb a lot of marine and viking fire during the battle.
A lot of times you can control them so that they lift the tanks, draw fire from the marines for the zealots to close in and then die or end their ability when the zealots are right against the tanks and the marines. This is awesome because just your zealots alone will kill tons of marines, kill tanks, and cause splash damage friendly fire all over the place.
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yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta:
until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about.
in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that.
phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
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On June 30 2010 21:08 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 12:17 Calamity wrote:On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday. On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote:
Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day. Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro? Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro. For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away. Immortals also beat marines in a 1 to 1 ratio, but marines are a counter to immortals. Fact is a phoenix costs 33% more gas than a viking and phoenixes can't be massed as fast. 14 vikings vs 12 phoenixes(equal cost if we use a 2 to 1 mineral to gas conversion) resuls in a decisive win for the vikings. Phoenixes are cost effective only vs mutas, void rays, and units that can't attack back.
The only way they can mass vikings against your one Stargate phoenix is if they build more starports with reactors, with your first phoenix you shoudl always scout the terran's base to look for these things. If they do build the starports, stop massing up phoenixes and switch to a stalker / zealot/ immortal/sentry etc. army depending on their army composition. They wasted money on buildings and vikings that can't really hurt ground. If they build turrets to stop your harass, they wasted money on that as well, which is well worth the 33% gas (25 gas x 2 = 50 minerals, 2 turrets = 200 min) BTW, a mass group of vikings is simply not gonna catch up to a group of phoenixes so they are basically free to harass everywhere on the map before the vikings reinforce that area. When they come, run away and the terran will be bat shit pissed off.
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On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote:
yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta:
until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about.
in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that.
phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
I dunno, I've tried really hard to micro the Phoenixes so that they are shooting the mutas but not getting hit, but I feel like it's the same concept as SC1 Muta vs Archon, where it's really hard to get off the Phoenix shot without getting hit back... but maybe it's just me :-/. Like I said I don't have too much experience yet so I'm not sure.
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On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote:
A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less.
1 Pheonix will win decisively over a muta. This doesn't change as the numbers go up.
On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote:
yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta:
until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about.
in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that.
phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes
With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas.
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I guess I exaggerated the significance of the defense micro, but it's quality.
more important is when their mutas chase you into a group of stalkers or cannons or even a sentry with guardian shield and decide they don't like the fight, but mutas can't run from phoenix.
If they ever over-commit the slightest bit they should lose at least half of them as you chase them all over the map (they also have this subconscious tendency of retreating towards wherever they keep their overlords)
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On July 01 2010 01:00 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote:
A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less. 1 Pheonix will win decisively over a muta. This doesn't change as the numbers go up. Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote:
yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta:
until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about.
in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that.
phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas.
Well not if you get outmassed super quickly... for example say you have 6 Phoenixes out and the Zerg has 6 mutas out, you're going to win. You have 2 stargates. By the time you have 10 Phoenixes the Zerg will have ~16-18 Mutas and you're going to decisively lose the air battle, especially because as the numbers go up Mutas ARE more effective vs Phoenixes because of Glaive Wurm.
Thus I would suspect 3 mutas would fare much better vs 3 Phoenixes than 1 muta vs 1 Phoenix (although they'd both lose, the 3 mutas would lose to a lesser degree, and mutas are cheaper).
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On July 01 2010 01:04 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 01:00 Percutio wrote:On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote:
A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less. 1 Pheonix will win decisively over a muta. This doesn't change as the numbers go up. On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote:
yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta:
until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about.
in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that.
phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas. Well not if you get outmassed super quickly... for example say you have 6 Phoenixes out and the Zerg has 6 mutas out, you're going to win. You have 2 stargates. By the time you have 10 Phoenixes the Zerg will have ~16-18 Mutas and you're going to decisively lose the air battle, especially because as the numbers go up Mutas ARE more effective vs Phoenixes because of Glaive Wurm. Thus I would suspect 3 mutas would fare much better vs 3 Phoenixes than 1 muta vs 1 Phoenix (although they'd both lose, the 3 mutas would lose to a lesser degree, and mutas are cheaper).
10 pheonixes can beat 16 mutas with no micro. Against 18 mutas the Pheonixes lose, but they leave 6-8 mutas alive. So in that case, the Pheonixes are still close to cost effectiveness, not to mention you can add any number of gateway units to make it even.
Edit: Also, even as numbers go up Pheonixes remain extremely good against mutas. I tested this up to 150 supply mutas, which lose to as little as 108 supply Pheonixes.
Less extreme examples play out about the same.
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On July 01 2010 01:17 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 01:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 01 2010 01:00 Percutio wrote:On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote:
A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less. 1 Pheonix will win decisively over a muta. This doesn't change as the numbers go up. On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote:
yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta:
until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about.
in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that.
phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas. Well not if you get outmassed super quickly... for example say you have 6 Phoenixes out and the Zerg has 6 mutas out, you're going to win. You have 2 stargates. By the time you have 10 Phoenixes the Zerg will have ~16-18 Mutas and you're going to decisively lose the air battle, especially because as the numbers go up Mutas ARE more effective vs Phoenixes because of Glaive Wurm. Thus I would suspect 3 mutas would fare much better vs 3 Phoenixes than 1 muta vs 1 Phoenix (although they'd both lose, the 3 mutas would lose to a lesser degree, and mutas are cheaper). 10 pheonixes can beat 16 mutas with no micro. Against 18 mutas the Pheonixes lose, but they leave 6-8 mutas alive. So in that case, the Pheonixes are still close to cost effectiveness, not to mention you can add any number of gateway units to make it even.
Can they really O_O. My bad.
EDIT: Can I also clarify guardian shield DOES work on flying units? Aka guardian shield will shield my Phoenix from Muta?
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On June 30 2010 21:08 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 12:17 Calamity wrote:On June 30 2010 11:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Phoenix is great for mutas, and thats good enough for me. I don't see why you have to make a unit incredibly powerful and versatile. Fortunately for us, protoss has stalkers, and i'll choose the cheap 125/50 stalker over phoenixes anyday. On a side note, phoenixes aren't even that great against mutas anyway. But that's for another discussion On June 30 2010 07:59 Spyridon wrote:
Also, Corruptor is only cost effective vs Massive (the only match up you actually see them in is vs Colossus) and has a crap spellcasting ability. It's not cost effective vs Mutas as you mention, and has a SLIGHT advantage vs UNMICROED phoenix, but microed phoenixes beat Corruptors. BL isnt even the same unit - that's like saying Banelings are Zerglings. Corruptors need a LOT more help than Phoenix.
Also, Vikings dont counter light air very well at all. The main thing Viking has going for it when it comes to AA is huge range. It's actually in a very similar boat to Phoenix, except I'd prefer Phoenixes spellcasting ability any day. Corrupters and vikings both outrange phoenixes.... you can make your phoexies fly back wards all you want but they still will never outrange corrupters and vikings... lol so how do you outmicro? Fact is that a phoenix beats a viking if on a 1 to 1 ratio. If a unit outranges another unit, you're suppose to use kiting to take advantage of that. Vikings may outrange, but the phoenix just moves towards the running viking AND fires at the same time and the viking will die with or without micro. For corruptors, they just win outright against the phoenix if both were to duke it out without micro. The phoenix just does so little against the corruptor's 2 armor. Phoenix micro isn't that good since the corruptor outranges it so the corruptor wins if the Phoenix doesn't run away. Immortals also beat marines in a 1 to 1 ratio, but marines are a counter to immortals. Fact is a phoenix costs 33% more gas than a viking and phoenixes can't be massed as fast. 14 vikings vs 12 phoenixes(equal cost if we use a 2 to 1 mineral to gas conversion) resuls in a decisive win for the vikings. Phoenixes are cost effective only vs mutas, void rays, and units that can't attack back.
The only way they can mass vikings against your one Stargate phoenix is if they build more starports with reactors, with your first phoenix you shoudl always scout the terran's base to look for these things. If they do build the starports, stop massing up phoenixes and switch to a stalker / zealot/ immortal/sentry etc. army depending on their army composition. They wasted money on buildings and vikings that can't really hurt ground. If they build turrets to stop your harass, they wasted money on that as well, which is well worth the 33% gas (25 gas x 2 = 50 minerals, 2 turrets = 200 min) BTW, a mass group of vikings is simply not gonna catch up to a group of phoenixes so they are basically free to harass everywhere on the map before the vikings reinforce that area. When they come, run away and the terran will be bat shit pissed off.
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On July 01 2010 01:19 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 01:17 Percutio wrote:On July 01 2010 01:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 01 2010 01:00 Percutio wrote:On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote:
A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less. 1 Pheonix will win decisively over a muta. This doesn't change as the numbers go up. On July 01 2010 00:53 shutdown_exploded wrote:
yes, phoenix lift tanks in siege mode.
on phoenix verse muta:
until they have so many mutas that they instantly vaporize your mineral line, it's not much to worry about.
in a ball on ball fight you'll be losing minerals (but besides that fact that most muta builds (but tech switches to muta are incredibly devastating) have bad econ and that by building mutas they're also gimping their ground army)
but you don't need to fight them like that.
phoenix are faster and they outrange mutas and they can move while shooting. If the mutas hit you more than twice you've made some mistakes With no micro Pheonixes are still cost effective against mutas. Well not if you get outmassed super quickly... for example say you have 6 Phoenixes out and the Zerg has 6 mutas out, you're going to win. You have 2 stargates. By the time you have 10 Phoenixes the Zerg will have ~16-18 Mutas and you're going to decisively lose the air battle, especially because as the numbers go up Mutas ARE more effective vs Phoenixes because of Glaive Wurm. Thus I would suspect 3 mutas would fare much better vs 3 Phoenixes than 1 muta vs 1 Phoenix (although they'd both lose, the 3 mutas would lose to a lesser degree, and mutas are cheaper). 10 pheonixes can beat 16 mutas with no micro. Against 18 mutas the Pheonixes lose, but they leave 6-8 mutas alive. So in that case, the Pheonixes are still close to cost effectiveness, not to mention you can add any number of gateway units to make it even. Can they really O_O. My bad. EDIT: Can I also clarify guardian shield DOES work on flying units? Aka guardian shield will shield my Phoenix from Muta?
Yeah, Guardian shield works on air units. Add in a sentry or two and things just get nasty for the Mutas. It just about removes glave wurm from the equation.
EDIT: Tried this out in unit tester: 10 Pheonixes and 1 sentry (Two guardian shields) beat 18 mutas with six near full health pheonixes and the sentry still alive. Even if the mutas sniped the sentry first, five Pheonixes survived.
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On July 01 2010 00:23 LSGamer wrote:
A pheonix hard counters a muta? A muta costs less.
Nobody makes ONE Muta.
One Phoenix can counter like 8 Mutas since the moving shot thing. Its not foolproof, but it gives Protoss the ability to thwart early Muta harassment with a very small number of Phoenixes because it allows you to fire at them, without them being able to fire back.
Prior to the patch, you absolutely HAD to have 2 Phoenixes to every 3 Mutalisks if you were going to win the fight. The moving shot thing made a HUUUUUUUGE difference to how effectively the Phoenix counters the Muta, and it works out well.
In small-scale Phoenix vs Muta battles (1v3, 2v4, etc) the Phoenixes can fairly easily dance around the Mutas and inflict damage without getting hit. This gave Protoss a MUCH needed helping hand against early Muta harassment.
In large-scale Phoenix vs Muta battles (10+ vs 10+) the Protoss can't really kite the same way (unless he can build one little blob and maintain it, which is very tough micro) and the Protoss is then required to hit that magic 2:3 ratio in order to win the fight, same as before.
Economy-wise, if you go with a small number of Mutas, you're likely to see 150/100 (1 Phoenix) counter the crap out of 300/300 (3 Mutas). But when you get to much larger numbers, the Protoss needs to spend around 1500/1000 (10 Phoenixes) just to beat 1500/1500 (15 Mutas).
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2/3 isn't bad.
You spend 500 less gas than the Zerg and walk away with a few Pheonixes left after the fight, which can still harass overlords and kill workers.
Not to mention that Toss can always add in stalkers or sentries to help the Pheonixes, while Zerg is probably not going to have hydras and mutas at the same time.
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EPT
