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On May 08 2010 14:07 Floophead_III wrote:
I think the tanksplash change actually might make siege mode much stronger vs roach. I played some TvP and I've never seen gateway units melt so fast. It definitely seems stronger all the sudden.
I've seen some games recently, z couldn't do anything even off 4 expos (we are talking ~2000 lvl games)
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On May 08 2010 14:07 guitarizt wrote:
Tanks do more damage unsieged against roaches.
70 DMG tanks (tanks with +2) vs roaches seiged are ALOT better than unseiged.. I dont think your taking in the fact that it hits the roach in the middle, PLUS the surrounding 5-7 roaches every hit, and with 2 tanks, that 2 hits them... with 8 tanks, its insta-demolish. Watch the replay.
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Early economic advantage is key. Since mech is more expensive than bio, it takes longer to mass up an army.
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It was hard with a reaper harass into hellion harass though =( even though i saw the hellions comming, spine wasnt out really fast enough.. i did lose ALOT of lings at the start carelessly, still.
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Yeah no one even suggesting unsieged tanks, the crazy thing that we will all see very soon is fields of sieged tanks that simply cannot be broken no matter what mix of units you have. First blizz makes these infinite groups of units that will always clump, then they slowly implement splash.. kind of counter productive lol
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I knew this day would come. When I play terran, I use tanks all the time and they just end games. I could not fathom for the life of me why people didn't use them every game.
Anyways, I made a long ass post earlier in SC2 general forum about this exact problem. I play 2v2 and it is just dirty there because all the 2v2 maps are so tight that tanks set up so easily. I've rewatched my replays and our ZZ team is ahead on bases, has twice the income and 1.5x the food count in army and we still barely win/lose against a mech terran.
I think the only consideration is to use nydus worms and burrow and overlord drops to stay mobile.
Broodlords are an obvious solution but they are too high in the tech and too expensive and too easily countered for my tastes. A terran doesn't exactly sit back once he has enough tanks to roll over your base. He pushes in and unless you have those broodlords ready, then the game is over.
Probably want to avoid fighting the army straight up unless you can get an ambush/surround going. Make sure to focus the tanks.
I don't really know to be honest. My 2s is rank 3 plat but I feel like against a solid T it is really hard.
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On May 08 2010 14:23 GenesisX wrote:
Early economic advantage is key. Since mech is more expensive than bio, it takes longer to mass up an army.
You wont have a window to even shove the all in before t takes 3rd, he can just crawl to that 3rd and mass up like 180 supply army. Muta is useless vs thor/turret, roaches and anything ground dies to tanks, by the time you got broodlord he wont only have thors but ravens too
It's going to get nasty
Right now if its done properly it looks like those fbh or flash tvz games on destination. Completely ridiculous, z can suicide his 200 supply as many times as he wants.
edit: anyone who has doubts, ask your terran friend to set up his army the way described and build anything you want, repeat until you get tired
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On May 08 2010 14:18 BigDates wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2010 14:07 guitarizt wrote:
Tanks do more damage unsieged against roaches. 70 DMG tanks (tanks with +2) vs roaches seiged are ALOT better than unseiged.. I dont think your taking in the fact that it hits the roach in the middle, PLUS the surrounding 5-7 roaches every hit, and with 2 tanks, that 2 hits them... with 8 tanks, its insta-demolish. Watch the replay.
Maybe it's changed since patch 11 but you're gonna have armour upgrades for the roaches too. Also I did watch the rep and you would have lost no matter what you did at the point the t pushed because his macro was better like I said in my first post. You stretched yourself too think by not making enough roaches and trying to go muta hydra roach all at the same time. You also absolutely cannot sack your expo because the game is lost at that point and t has a very dominant position.
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Holy shit everyone has a different answer. I watched your replay and I think you just need to improve your game a bit better. Listen to what Travis said. You had the correct build order. Instead of wasting gas on mutas and a spire when you already saw armory, buy tunnel claw instead.
Whenever I play mech I like to add a starport for two reasons : one, Raven is the perfect 1 man army unit against zerg and two, future broodlords. But in this case, he didn't have a Raven so you could have bought tunnel claw for sure. If it doesn't work out, oh well, a little waste of gas, but better than dying 5-6 mutas to thors. If it does work out, you'll have a very good edge.
Another thought, is the infestor. You said not to use it because of the tanks, but that is because you would use it for for neural parasite, which is retarded because it would die from tanks. Instead use infestor's fungal growth and watch as all his hellions go bye bye very quickly. Without hellions tanks are vulnerable and you can make more roaches faster than he can make hellions. Again, without the spire and mutas you can use that gas for infestors. Who knows, you might get lucky and growth a few tanks too.
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if it's anything like sc1 mech (and i can see how similar they are lol) there isn't a cute trick to kill it, you just have to take advantage of these facts
1. T has to transition into mech from some opening to hold off early Z
2. mech is super gas heavy (thor/tank/upgrades)
3. mech is very strong but immobile
" The primary Mech counters to Zerg revolve around the ability to expand so much since Mech is so immobile ... Having a lot of “stuff” is the key to killing a Mech army. Since having a lot of expansions is the key to having a lot of “stuff,” many expansions = lots of Zerg “stuff.”' - liquipedia
- early window before tanks
- another window where you can muta harass when he mass tanks, transition out as thors come and then retransition into greater spire
- T turtles after 2nd base to amass for push - if he moves too fast, he exposes himself too much
- keep speedlings outside his base so if he pushes out he's exposed to backstab
- try to shut down hellion harass/map control as best as possible
- don't engage on his terms: force him to siege, dance around his army, hit and run expos and make him constantly babysit and force him out of position as much as possible
- you either slowly chip at his army with a better econ than him or you turtle to brood lords so that you can directly engage
gl findin a practice partner
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On May 08 2010 16:25 AJ- wrote:
if it's anything like sc1 mech (and i can see how similar they are lol) there isn't a cute trick to kill it, you just have to take advantage of these facts
1. T has to transition into mech from some opening to hold off early Z
2. mech is super gas heavy (thor/tank/upgrades)
3. mech is very strong but immobile
" The primary Mech counters to Zerg revolve around the ability to expand so much since Mech is so immobile ... Having a lot of “stuff” is the key to killing a Mech army. Since having a lot of expansions is the key to having a lot of “stuff,” many expansions = lots of Zerg “stuff.”' - liquipedia
- early window before tanks
- another window where you can muta harass when he mass tanks, transition out as thors come and then retransition into greater spire
- T turtles after 2nd base to amass for push - if he moves too fast, he exposes himself too much
- keep speedlings outside his base so if he pushes out he's exposed to backstab
- try to shut down hellion harass/map control as best as possible
- don't engage on his terms: force him to siege, dance around his army, hit and run expos and make him constantly babysit and force him out of position as much as possible
- you either slowly chip at his army with a better econ than him or you turtle to brood lords so that you can directly engage
gl findin a practice partner
this is right. I'm a 1800 terran and I've just recently started doing this. The only games I've lost have been when the Zerg is very smart and is constantly engaging from different locations(drops included, not much AA with this build) and putting up expansion constantly.
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i like what a j said above me i think its really solid advice. i think the hardest thing about the new mech though is it doesnt feel that immobile. thor drops are the most annoying thing in the game. you dont see collossus drops or ultralisk drops but thor drops every zvt.
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I am platinum and has trouble to stop mass hellion with marauder, followed up with vikings. I think I have lost 10 matches in a row even though I scouted it. Roaches can now be kited very easily so they are useless against hellions unless you have a bazillion of them and spire takes such a long time to build. I usually end up with to many roaches and my muta are 1-2 minutes behind his viking. I have a similar issue with P and void ray/phoenix combo. The only reason why I am still in platinum is because of my 80-90% ZvZ ratio.
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On May 08 2010 18:14 Tef wrote:
I am platinum and has trouble to stop mass hellion with marauder, followed up with vikings. I think I have lost 10 matches in a row even though I scouted it. Roaches can now be kited very easily so they are useless against hellions unless you have a bazillion of them and spire takes such a long time to build. I usually end up with to many roaches and my muta are 1-2 minutes behind his viking. I have a similar issue with P and void ray/phoenix combo. The only reason why I am still in platinum is because of my 80-90% ZvZ ratio.
Spine crawlers?
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I was faced with this build again recently, i felt alot stronger, as once i saw him getitng the thing for thors, i went straight into broodlord, got 4-5 up before he could push, and destroyed nearly all his army, but couldnt make enough to counter even being an expo up on him all game (4 bases, 1 gold, as he was 3 bases, no gold)
my composition was mainly roach/hydra/broodlord with a couple infestors. I think if i was more aggresive later though i would have won.
Even though ultras were buffed to 25 dmg AOE, drops would be an eco-waste, becasue they are so expensive, AND they SUCK vs terran mech who gets any ammount of marauders.. Which is i guess why blizzard even admitted they REALLY need to change the ultralisk to get it used.
Baneling drops seem to be useful, so im going to try to transition into baneling/speedling/hydra early even if i do see mech out, expoing faster once he expos, and just drop harass him as much as possible while macroing. Thats my biggest problem, the only time i harass is when i get mutas in ZvZ, or ZvP.
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My counter is roaches with underground movement. Pop up in tank line and own.
First you are using maximum roach damage because you are right on there ass dealing damage. Their pitiful 3 range coupled with a hellion meat shield usually prevents maximum dps but here everything is cool.
Tanks have a minimum range and friendly splash so while you are attack them, they are attack themselves! Yay
Easily massable going along with the same SC:BW philosophy zvt mech, you just need alot of shit.
Its awesome moving while burrowed.
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Ravens? scan?
Once he sees my army burrow, he will scan it, Or, if hes ttacking and i see him comming and burrow, he scans anyways, T always do.. start of beta i could get away with burrowed banelings, but not anymore, so i dunno if this would work as well if its super-late game i'll have to try!
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How does he have enough for ravens if he is going tank + thor? If he is turtling until max or something where he has enough for tank + thor + upgrades + raves then broodlords are the answer after taking like 5-6 bases. I was assuming you were having problems with a mid game push.
Obviously you don't burrow right in front of him. You wait until he doesn't see and then burrow.
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On May 09 2010 13:38 kNyTTyM wrote:
How does he have enough for ravens if he is going tank + thor? If he is turtling until max or something where he has enough for tank + thor + upgrades + raves then broodlords are the answer after taking like 5-6 bases. I was assuming you were having problems with a mid game push.
Obviously you don't burrow right in front of him. You wait until he doesn't see and then burrow.
Any terran that can play this game will make turrets and take third, he needs turrets either way vs possible muta. He slowly pushes towards third, making turrets. He has thors already, he slowly adds ravens. It is midgame. If you beat some horrible t's with roach burrow - that's not proving anything. T doesn't need to attack in this scenario, he can take his half and sit there and slowroll. Broodlords won't do anything because of thor/raven.
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Any terran that can play this game will make turrets and take third, he needs turrets either way vs possible muta. He slowly pushes towards third, making turrets. He has thors already, he slowly adds ravens. It is midgame. If you beat some horrible t's with roach burrow - that's not proving anything. T doesn't need to attack in this scenario, he can take his half and sit there and slowroll. Broodlords won't do anything because of thor/raven.Last edit: 2010-05-09 15:11:17
Slush successfully used burrowed roaches against a terran player pretty recently...
If a Terran can take his third with no retaliation, he's already won the game. Massing factory units is an economic blackhole on one base. I think this is where you are not taking control. The mech unit composition is so slow to respond to any type of change at this phase in the game, so the zerg player is dictating the pace. Any loss is a huge loss for the Terran at this point. If you vehemently oppose the roach strategy, maybe an infestor/ling army might work. Hellions are your main threat, and they die to 3 fungal growths as shown in the TLO vs CauthonLuck match. Even if the Terran player turtles up and pushes, you have two major advantages. 1) You can match or out-do his expansions 2)Fungal growth will stop that already immobile army from moving out at all.
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EPT
