Cool is a f'ing monster though and I don't think a lot of diamond zergs have the apm to do all the stuff he did. I think sen's games are easier to copy.

Azarkon

United States21060 Posts

May 30 2010 19:45 GMT

#262

If you can't copy Cool, you probably can't copy Sen either. Cool's style is basically baneling drops to stop the "bio" part of biomech (you don't run your banelings in because they get vaporized by tanks and gives your opponent an opportunity to kite them) and roaches to take care of the rest. He stops early timing pushes by having more speedlings. Outside of that he's effectively a macro beast, much like Sen.

Against pure mech, ala TLO's style, mutas are far more effective but you need to micro them and not group up against Thors.

Tachion

Canada8573 Posts

May 30 2010 21:05 GMT

#263

Cool also made great use of speedlings on occasion to get a quick surround on Maka's tanks. Not only that, but If you can get speedlings into range on the terran rax units then the tanks are gonna blow them up too. On blistering sands Cool would suicide some speedlings into Maka's mineral line and the tanks ended up blowing up SCV's while killing the lings.

Cheerio

Ukraine3178 Posts

May 30 2010 21:15 GMT

#264

My winrate vs T is like 15%, while vs P and Z near 70%. I can defend an all-in from T but if he doesn't persist and FE into timing push with tanks... it's basicly gg.

onmach

United States1241 Posts

May 30 2010 23:26 GMT

#265

Oh god, I'm so relieved to see this thread. I thought my skills had degraded or something. I'm losing about 80% of my ZvT games and I can't figure it out at all. Even when I'm way ahead in macro, my army gets chipped away in attack after attack. I'll stave off the first few attacks, but eventually the damage of multiple tanks just adds up.

I tried going muta, even one base muta, but some terrans have actually started building turrets without even scouting a spire. Even when I do some damage with mutas though, I just don't have the apm to keep everything working back at home and eventually when the push happens I can't stop it.

I can't even deny his expo on most maps. They line tanks up there and maybe even put a fortress up and some turrets and I can't touch that.

The few times I've been able to get out hive tech I've been utterly smashed. I didn't think brood lords were overpowered before the patch and now they just don't work for me at all. I doubt ultras would help.

Also while zerglings do really well against tanks and thors, at least initially, every now and then some terran catches on and makes a handful of hellions, and upgrades them and that's it. There's nothing I have been able to do from that point.

Oh well, maybe we'll get another patch or something...

BanelingCarpetBomb

United States2 Posts

May 31 2010 05:31 GMT

#266

I'm sorry but i gotta tell ya. Use mutas and infestors.
GET MAP CONTROLL WITH OVERLORDS' VISION AND MUTAS AND BURROWED BANELINGS
SPREAD YOU UNITS OUT. ALL OF YOUR UNITS WILL HAVE DIFFERENT ROLES.
DO NOT.....DO NOT ENGAGE DIRECTLY
AND LOOK AT MY NAME. IT IS SELF EXPLANATORY.
You don't need anything else than these.

Banelings (great micro breakers. Kills front line hellions in a snap. burrow at least 10 by ALL probable rush routes, and note that do not bust them while under Thors. Bust them while they are under Hellions. Dont forget to "carpet bomb" with overlords. Overlords will not get shot at during battle, for it has very low hostility value.)

Speedlings(damaging stray Thors, and flanking siege tanks)

8 Mutas (ez sniping moving tanks. dont let them siege up)

2 Infestors(again burrowed. Use them to stop hellions or tanks while Terran army is mobile, so that Mutas can come and snipe them all. Mind control is worthless, like you said. Instant snipe.)

Roaches 5x the amount of Thors(Burrow move the surround Thors)

OUT MACRO TERRAN. Once you outmacroed your opponent, get more mutas and just bypass turrets or defensive thors to snipe out workers. You can always make more lightning fast.

I admit TvZ is hard. Hell, PvZ is equally tricky. Zerg is not really "fun" race to play, but you still play Zerg, because whenever you win vs P or T, you feel like much better player than they are, because Zerg takes extra APM, extra RTS knowledge, and extra sharp timing senses.

But mark my words: Zerg, in the end, it not all about massing like crazy. With above build, if your army is equally supplied with Terran mech, you will be fine.

Warrior Madness

Canada3791 Posts

June 01 2010 06:43 GMT

#267

Yeah okay, I just felt like I needed to air some of my frustrations here.

I just finished this hour long borefest versus a turtle terran. I had pretty much the entire map while he had 3 bases. I tried to get broodlords but he sniped them with about 20 vikings.... So I made 16 ultralisks. I frenzied EACH and every one of them and tried to take out his nat. The result? 16 ultralisks for 5 bunkers.... FUCK YOU brizzard. So I made a nydus network to kill off his gold island expo. Done. Now what was I to do? He had turrets EVERYwhere in his main, about 20 vikings or more just sitting around guarding the edges and all he could do was say, "come zerg."

So I grabbed a bunch of overlords, and made them puke creep all over the terran's ridge. And I had about 5k extra minerals to spare so I made A LOT of spore crawlers around near the edge of his base and I edged a little bit closer each time. I would move in with my BLs, hed move in with his vikings and then I'd pull them back while corruptors + a billion spore crawlers picked them off.

Until finally I had enough corruptors to overwhelm his vikings. He said, "Well that was a bitch move." I don't know what he meant by that because I thought the slow push with the spore crawlers was pretty clever. Then I was like "says the turtling terran." And he retorts, "Says the guy who has complete map control." Yeah.... Pretty douchetastic.

What pisses me off even more is that if he had made 4-5 ravens, I would've totally been screwed. Even with 10+ spore crawlers shooting at PDD, that gives him ample time to hunt down my broodlords and to pick off my corruptors. It's really hard to replenish corruptors and broodlords quickly. I was bleeding gas near the end.

Latham

9560 Posts

June 01 2010 09:14 GMT

#268

As Idra already demonstrated, to deal with viking hordes killing your BLs and Corruptors you need fungal growth.
I know the pain of playing vs a turtling mech T. Nerf T. Not our fault all the sc1 pros chose to play Z/P instead of choboT.
If they don't, when release comes T will find a `Slayers`Boxer, and lolrape everyone around. And Blizzard will slip on their balance like a person does on dog shit.

Gunman_csz

United Arab Emirates492 Posts

June 01 2010 12:23 GMT

#269

My first game of the day is usually a 2v2 so i can warmup my hands, and this is what happens. Thank you blizzard for giving us thors and thanks.

http://ifile.it/dvafjpr

ryanAnger

United States838 Posts

June 01 2010 12:41 GMT

#270

Sens ZvT Muta build is godly, and I think should be the standard we'll see in the future, assuming patches don't really screw with any timings in it.

wizerd

United States26 Posts

June 01 2010 14:05 GMT

#271

i just open with banshees, without fail the other guy goes mass vikings. then I just switch to 3 factories with thor+tank and just attack. i havn't lost with it yet unless i completely mess up

wut, I think I posted this in the absolutely wrong thread T_T

Prisom

United States83 Posts

June 01 2010 16:04 GMT

#272

On May 31 2010 14:31 BanelingCarpetBomb wrote:
I'm sorry but i gotta tell ya. Use mutas and infestors.
GET MAP CONTROLL WITH OVERLORDS' VISION AND MUTAS AND BURROWED BANELINGS
SPREAD YOU UNITS OUT. ALL OF YOUR UNITS WILL HAVE DIFFERENT ROLES.
DO NOT.....DO NOT ENGAGE DIRECTLY
AND LOOK AT MY NAME. IT IS SELF EXPLANATORY.
You don't need anything else than these.

Banelings (great micro breakers. Kills front line hellions in a snap. burrow at least 10 by ALL probable rush routes, and note that do not bust them while under Thors. Bust them while they are under Hellions. Dont forget to "carpet bomb" with overlords. Overlords will not get shot at during battle, for it has very low hostility value.)

Speedlings(damaging stray Thors, and flanking siege tanks)

8 Mutas (ez sniping moving tanks. dont let them siege up)

2 Infestors(again burrowed. Use them to stop hellions or tanks while Terran army is mobile, so that Mutas can come and snipe them all. Mind control is worthless, like you said. Instant snipe.)

Roaches 5x the amount of Thors(Burrow move the surround Thors)

OUT MACRO TERRAN. Once you outmacroed your opponent, get more mutas and just bypass turrets or defensive thors to snipe out workers. You can always make more lightning fast.

I admit TvZ is hard. Hell, PvZ is equally tricky. Zerg is not really "fun" race to play, but you still play Zerg, because whenever you win vs P or T, you feel like much better player than they are, because Zerg takes extra APM, extra RTS knowledge, and extra sharp timing senses.

But mark my words: Zerg, in the end, it not all about massing like crazy. With above build, if your army is equally supplied with Terran mech, you will be fine.

Nice post and all but... 1 raven counters almost all of that.