On May 28 2010 00:55 SLush wrote: Early Game = couple of roach with spines Mid Game = Muta/Roach (use mobility, drops etc) End game = ling/infestor/ultra
I upgrade attack on both melee and ranged, never carapace.
this is a good strategy to get owned in the early, mid, and end game.
early game should be nothing but zerglings and hydra if he's going mech (thor drop). If he's going banshee then you need quick hydra or muta, the former being the better choice imo. Mid-game, at least for me, usually consists of mass roaches and hydra [1:1 ratio] with a mix of zerglings with the speed upgrade [4:1:1 z/r/h]. Late game usually consists of adrenalings/infestors/brood lords/corrupters. It works vs. mech most of the time, but the best advice is to keep yourself AWAY from the tanks. If you can move the battle then go for it.
The only reason I don't use infestors earlier in the game is because I just can't control them too well. It's better for me to utilize mobility (drops/nydus) to keep the Terran at home. Plus I can use the gas elsewhere since I tear up every time I see a slug explode (bye bye 150 gas)
Dont ever use roach/hydra mid game vs mech. you will instant die. Hydras are the worst unit vs mech they are too slow and gaz heavy, and that criple ur late game a lot.
what u need is early muta (mid game) if he makes too many thors, roach + infestor is next while u build ur late game tech. always build ling when u have too much minerals compared to gaz.
Late game broodlords are good. but if terrans scout properly he will get enough viking that u'll lose ur gaz without doing anyway kind of damage + broodlords aren't mobile. only viable on certain maps.
So wait.. what else is good lategame then if they DO scout it and go mass vikings?
He already posted what he likes late game but I'm curious to know how people are transitioning against the cookie cutter mech builds terran is doing. The only person I've seen that shows the transitions well is sen against tlo and sen against demuslim. I think people are focusing too much on unit composition.
It seems lots zerg forget they have nydus worm and drops. Counter to any mech build by terran mobilty. creep the fuck out of everything and drop all over the place use nydus worms to send troops past his defs and hit the expos or main. Also burrow roachs are crazy good vs all mech play rape thors/tanks/hellions.
Really fight where you want to fight not where he wants to fight don't attack his tank lines lol. Mech is slow as fuck and very immobile you are zerg the most moble race in the game use it lol. You don't need to do one big omg push and win army on army thats just silly and stupid take 2 ovs drop a bunch of lings on his expos or main ever so often and make it hard for him to crawl the map with his tanks.
Really it seems like most people are trying to find a way to break a terran tank wall don't you can't just avoid it lol. Just like toss in broodwar go around it.
I find on some maps, it is just too difficult to take advantage of terrans lack of mobility, while on some they can also set up small armies on cliffs next to your expo with an mmm ball and tanks, and vikings. If you are in close positions on a 4 player map they are able to pile drive to your main without much room to take advantage of their lack of mobility.
I was playing a game on lost temple at the close positions, and between vikings hunting my overlords and cliff drops.
The reason it's so hard to deal with is because all of the terran ball outranges the perspective units. The only time I can seem to win against mech is by luring the terran ball away and using fungal growth the mutas go around and snipe the tanks, while hydra/roach/ling attack the m&m ball.
Yeah that theorycrafting sounds good but terran is able to rape your expo very early on so you have to confront that eventually. The people saying 'it's easy all you have to do is expo all over the place and nydus and drop should really post some reps at even the mid diamond level where they're beating mech by just being mobile.
I've had a lot of success in tvz with the mech build. It's really awesome, but I've had trouble when zergs did the following:
1. doom drop in the main when I'm about to go out (this buys zerg so much time) 2. burrowed roach attack. I guess I should learn to get ravens, but if zerg pulls this off once or twice, it's even game and zerg can tech up to broodlords. 3.hidden mass mutas. zerg shows about 8 mutas, and gets easily fended off by thors, but if zerg gets more mutas and hides them, and shows it when T pushes out, it's pretty deadly. of course you need to micro the mutas
All I gotta say is...Never attack into the terran's nat and up his ramp.... Always doom drop. Even if you have a 200/200 fully upgraded frenzied, ultra ling army and you just won a decisive battle a few minutes earlier, you gonna get raped >_>
On May 28 2010 15:48 stalife wrote: I've had a lot of success in tvz with the mech build. It's really awesome, but I've had trouble when zergs did the following:
1. doom drop in the main when I'm about to go out (this buys zerg so much time) 2. burrowed roach attack. I guess I should learn to get ravens, but if zerg pulls this off once or twice, it's even game and zerg can tech up to broodlords. 3.hidden mass mutas. zerg shows about 8 mutas, and gets easily fended off by thors, but if zerg gets more mutas and hides them, and shows it when T pushes out, it's pretty deadly. of course you need to micro the mutas
Or take two workers with your army and build towers.
On May 28 2010 15:31 guitarizt wrote: Yeah that theorycrafting sounds good but terran is able to rape your expo very early on so you have to confront that eventually. The people saying 'it's easy all you have to do is expo all over the place and nydus and drop should really post some reps at even the mid diamond level where they're beating mech by just being mobile.
I agree with this. I want to see some replays of you using your "mobility" on Lost temple when you appear on the closest position by land or on other maps with close land positions.
Early muta harass then move into roach and then broodlords so far works for me.
I'd really like to see some replays with ultra usage in them. Hopefully Slush can post something for us. Ultra/ling was what I would say my bread and butter unit composition against mech in pre patch 13. I've tried using them again but they just seem to be soooo much weaker. I mean even vikings seem to tear through small groups in large sizes. Yet they take just as long to spawn.
On May 28 2010 15:31 guitarizt wrote: Yeah that theorycrafting sounds good but terran is able to rape your expo very early on so you have to confront that eventually. The people saying 'it's easy all you have to do is expo all over the place and nydus and drop should really post some reps at even the mid diamond level where they're beating mech by just being mobile.
I agree with this. I want to see some replays of you using your "mobility" on Lost temple when you appear on the closest position by land or on other maps with close land positions.
Early muta harass then move into roach and then broodlords so far works for me.
pretty much this. I do expo all over the place, but by using mutas to pin the terran in his base.
On May 28 2010 15:48 stalife wrote: I've had a lot of success in tvz with the mech build. It's really awesome, but I've had trouble when zergs did the following:
1. doom drop in the main when I'm about to go out (this buys zerg so much time) 2. burrowed roach attack. I guess I should learn to get ravens, but if zerg pulls this off once or twice, it's even game and zerg can tech up to broodlords. 3.hidden mass mutas. zerg shows about 8 mutas, and gets easily fended off by thors, but if zerg gets more mutas and hides them, and shows it when T pushes out, it's pretty deadly. of course you need to micro the mutas
Or take two workers with your army and build towers.
if your harassing right, and building enough mutas, wich I generally do, he cant really turret up all the way to your base, his resources are already strained from the thors/turrets he has to build for his own base.
On May 28 2010 13:17 slowmanrunning wrote: I find on some maps, it is just too difficult to take advantage of terrans lack of mobility, while on some they can also set up small armies on cliffs next to your expo with an mmm ball and tanks, and vikings. If you are in close positions on a 4 player map they are able to pile drive to your main without much room to take advantage of their lack of mobility.
I was playing a game on lost temple at the close positions, and between vikings hunting my overlords and cliff drops.
I saw a BoxeR vs some zerg and the zerg was able to control the game and win out vs boxer playing mech. He: FE'd, good spine placement stopped the hellion harass, teched quickly up to mutas, harassed and controled the game there. Forced a slow nat expo for the terran and had a 3rd before the terrans 2nd and then just beat him down slowly after a long match. I think the VOD was posted earlier in this thread actually.
Btw, the match that I watch was played on steppes of war so you cant really play on any smaller of a map.
After playing more games against mech and watching more tournaments I don't think mech's overpowered anymore but I think that letting the game go late is hugely in favor of the terran for a large percentage of the player pool below the high level diamonds and tournament players. +2 or higher tanks and thors are really tough for zerg to deal with and at that point it's hard to break any of their expos or for the zerg to expo themselves.
As a sidenote a maxed zerg army just doesn't feel or look the same anymore. People keep saying it in cast that a maxed zerg army looks empty. Balance aside, it would be nice if something could change so that the swarm feel was there again. That might be close to impossible to do and still keep everything relatively balanced though.
No one has mentioned the Cool vs Maka games yet? Cool totally manhandled one of the best Terrans in the world with ling/roach early game into infestors/muta/banelings. Cool would actually attack Maka's mech army head on a number of times and still win. I was pretty shocked, not even sure how that happened. Cool really aggressively expanded. With early speedlings/roaches there wasn't hardly anything that hellions or marines can do to harass. My take on it was just that Cool extremely outmacroed Maka, I'm kinda baffled as to how else he could constantly engage Maka's armies like that.
On May 30 2010 17:36 Tachion wrote: No one has mentioned the Cool vs Maka games yet? Cool totally manhandled one of the best Terrans in the world with ling/roach early game into infestors/muta/banelings. Cool would actually attack Maka's mech army head on a number of times and still win. I was pretty shocked, not even sure how that happened. Cool really aggressively expanded. With early speedlings/roaches there wasn't hardly anything that hellions or marines can do to harass. My take on it was just that Cool extremely outmacroed Maka, I'm kinda baffled as to how else he could constantly engage Maka's armies like that.
Go to the 17173 WorldCup thread and click on Forstis English Vods, The game on lost temple ( I think it's this one, sorry if wrong) is a great example of the Zerg just dominating despite a huge terran army. Baneling drops on top of the tanks/bio while the roaches push in, even the 50/50 trades are good for Cool as he has inevitable map control/zerg macro mechanic/more bases.
All I gotta say is, 90% of my tvz games, zerg does some retarded allin when I mech. If you are one of those people, that is why you are losing. People yell BALANCED!!!! or something like that when they suicide they're entire army into the nat with cliff tanks.
On May 30 2010 19:42 De4ngus wrote: All I gotta say is, 90% of my tvz games, zerg does some retarded allin when I mech. If you are one of those people, that is why you are losing. People yell BALANCED!!!! or something like that when they suicide they're entire army into the nat with cliff tanks.
It's far far easier to force an all in by laying siege to a base than it is to use "mobility" to counter it. By its slow moving nature, mech has a very low APM requirement. I find that to counter a 50 APM mech, I need to do at least 100 APM of harass, drops, etc.
EPT
