EPTI'm going to have to play with this to see if I can make it work.
[H] ZvT against Terran Mech - Page 11
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DTown
United States428 Posts
I'm going to have to play with this to see if I can make it work. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On May 27 2010 05:03 DTown wrote: Just saw someone Zerg beat T mech with Mass Roach Mass Infestor. I think that build may be on to something... Weak vs Air, but what you can't NP, you can FG and run, and maybe include just a few hydras for support. I'm going to have to play with this to see if I can make it work. Doesn't PDD stop roaches now? With a 1-1-1 opening, you could get a Raven out incredibly fast without it ruining your build. | ||
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DTown
United States428 Posts
On May 27 2010 05:16 Fruscainte wrote: Doesn't PDD stop roaches now? With a 1-1-1 opening, you could get a Raven out incredibly fast without it ruining your build. NP the raven? Fall back and don't fight in front of the PDD? Dunno, as I said, I'm grasping for straws here. Something, anything, that might be semi effective vs mech. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On May 27 2010 04:16 link0 wrote: My post included reasons and solid logic on why broodlords and corruptors would work. A proper response would be appreciated. DICLAIMER: I understand that all the theorycrafting I did in this post isn't 100% accurate cause you would have to take into account when zergs loose all their units they can tech switch as fast as a lightling would hit the ground and all.... but I just wanted to prove that MASSSSSS X AIR UNITS isn't a viable strategy against terran that knows what he's doing. Also we would have to take into account that mules + 4 scv per base make up for -1 base and so on.... please don't flame I'm ready to take your suggestions tho  (sorry if my numbers are wrong they are from what I remember) Corruptor : 150/100 - 2 - 40s Broodlord : 150/150 - 4 - 34s (+150/100 for the initial corruptor making it a 300/250 unit) Mutalisk : 100/100 - 2 - 33s Vicking: 150/75 - 2 - 42s Thor: 300/200 - 6 - 60s In the case we say... make MASSIVE CORRUPTORS + BROODLORDS! (like you suggested and also been shown that it's not working against Lz at least but eh! lets look at the numbers cause numbers don't lie) A normal zerg should have at the VERRY least 1x more expand than his Terran counter-part I totaly agree with you. 1 zerg base should have a MINIMUM of 16 drones on minerals and 6 on gaz. It is prefered to have 20 on minerals. At this point in the game the zerg will have 2-3 expands making it a minimum of 2 expands + 1 main: min: 66/200 + 3 queens = 72/200 max: 78/200 + 3 queens = 84/200 3 expands + 1 main: min: 88/200 + 4 queens = 96/200 max: 104/200 + 4 queens = 112/200 ok now I must say that you will RARLY have 4 fully working base going by the time fights will start but I've seen it happen more often than you'd think since Tmech is a pretty slow strat. Also it's not all base that will be maxed out at all time so we will do a median of 90/200 used! for your workers + queens (which wont participate in any offensive battles) make it a little bit less if it makes you feel better, but in the end about/atleast 40% of your supplies will be used by workers. Leaving us with 110 food! Now you ask us to pump corrupters + broodlords which are BOTH super GAZ CONSUMING and would be hard to do in a normal game but just for the fun of it we will get the numbers. Now I might not be 2500 zerg but I was 2000 zerg and I know what i'm doing... and GAZ is the problem not minerals. In late game you oftenly end up with 1000minerals and 0 gaz and that is why you produce lings or make another hatch in order to get better production... anyways... lets say you want to produce 110 food of corrupters/broodlords. 110 / 2 = 55 corruptors = 8250/5500 (and those numbers are ridiculous as it will cost less to produce broodlords) now I understand that you want to keep some supply to make brood lords so lets say that you want to have a 1:2 broodlords/corrupter ratio 14x broodlords = 4200 / 3500 28x corruptors = 2100 / 1400 Total = 6300 / 4900 (THAT IS TOTALY ACHEIVABLE) for 42 units using 112 supply (a bit more than we originaly talked but eh! w-e) now the question is how much vicking would it cost to get on par "army cost wize only". Here i'm not talking about 2 vickings owning 523520352 corruptors (lol) but... rather just COST OF UNITS FOR COST OF UNITS. 6300/4900 // 150/75 = 42mineral wise / 65gaz wize making a median of 53 units 106 supply EVENTHO Gaz is worth more than minerals i've put vickings on par!!! so basicaly you understand that producing vicking is a good counter right? So basicaly at the ~~~~~same~~~~~ cost (aka zergs cost is higher since they use more gaz). Vickings will cost less, deal more damage, and use less supply. Are vickings owning Corrupters 1v1? YES Are vickings owning Broodlords 1v1? YES --- Plus vicking has a better range than broodlords aka if brood wanna get the tank they have to get past the vickings! and than we would have to do the same thing for mutas instead of corrupters but than we would have to calculate thors (if I remember correctly vicking has better range aswell).... and since mutals are stacking like crazy....... SLush and I tested 1 thor against X mutals since the patch that made the aoe centred on the targets and the conclusion was: 1 thor > 5 mutas 1 thor < 6 mutas (2 mutas surviving with half hp) and the test was done with no SCV to repair (which I see alot lately) it would be REALLY hard to calculate everything but over all I think that you can understand that AIR isn't THAT GOOD OF AND IDEA like you seems to think about it. in conclusion: Basicaly... you're telling me that if you go Tmech I should go MASS CORRUPTOR + BROODLORDS which theoricaly work till you get mass vicks (which shouldn't take too long if you scout properly (scan anyone?) and get 2 starports with reactors (like most terrans i'm facing) and than I tell you ok but then GO MASS VICKINGS! and than you tell me what? If I go back to lings + hydras+ infestors you're going to back to Tmech and so on... What I'm saying here and I repeted it on almost EVERY POST I did is not that broodlords aren't good and I want them buffed. Just that it's too hard to protect them so they can do their jobs. Imo the best way to protect broods are hydras which are being owned by tanks.... but long story short I really DOUPT there is any air units worth of using against a terran. I'm not saying that broodlords doesn't have their spots in the current Tmech meta game or any other air units, but I'm pretty confident that they are not the solution.... I'm saying that it MUST NOT be considered as the Tmech HARD COUNTER. Now I know for sure that one of the top player is currently winning against Tmech with his Lings + ultras + infestors combo!! I know that he has at least a good 70% success rate with it. I'm not quite good with this start but I still won 60% of my games vs Tmech since I'm doing it. And while I agree that zergs have an hard time to deal with this strat... i'm not saying that it's not counterable by any means just that it's stupidly needing all your ressources. On this, I will try to get some slush's replay and I'll post my replay tonight. You'll find alot of small mistakes here and there (i know.. I found em as well) but you'll also see that 3-3 units are being owned by 1-1 | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
I'll have to keep testing it though. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
As you've said, you can quick as lightning switch to all air ALL OF A SUDDEN. A terran can't possibly know that you are going to mass air until you actually do it. He won't just have a 3 startports /w reactors just sitting around idle. This is why a MASS air tech switch does work. Terran CANNOT keep up with zerg production when a tech switch is involved. Go attack with your air straight to his production facilities and camp the starports with your corruptors. GG. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
and if you want to include time and cost to build a spire/greater spire vs starports + reactors.... I'm sure you'll find out that in the end it's about even! and there is no GG in this thread... we're only talking! also... Terrans are pretty fast producers with their 5-7 factoes, 4-5 barrack 2-3 starports and also I didn't prove anything besides that air isn't the solution as you don't need as much vickings to own the same cost army leaving your with alot of mech on the ground.... so in reality, you're always a step ahead.... | ||
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SureYouCan
United States38 Posts
What we're seeing with terran mech is the TTD syndrome. high HP units that hard counter other units with insane damage at 6-13 range. Zerg is put into a predicament where the only units who can survive the TTD are practically melee range and the units they can produce with decent range are 80hp light units that move incredibly slow(off of creep). This leads to insanely cost efficient units on the terran side due to them firing the first shots and hitting harder. This negates the fact that Zerg out expanded them early game because they get so much more "TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE" aka bang for their buck. I believe that the prevalence of ramp doorways for both terran and protoss are the main issues here. Zerg pose no threat early game when a lot of these TTD units are out of tech range. But the ability to door-off your ramp allows terran and protoss to put zerg in a tough predicament. Try to tech to your own TTD units and risk getting overrun by T1 units, something protoss/terran have very little fear of playing versus a zerg, or pump out your usual fragile army and hope that the other player doesnt hard counter your army because all the expansions in the world aren't going to save you if your 140 supply army keeps getting slaughtered and they're only losing 10-20 supply per engagement. TLDR version; The ability of both of these races to just sit back and tech to TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE units with no fear, due to wall-offs, is the main problem. Zerg are forced to build an army of fragile and slow ranged units that are cost inefficient, or tough melee range units that are cost inefficient due to ranged critical mass or risk being overrun early if these races do not tech. | ||
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
I Think early speedling with hydras ASAP would be good as a build, and once you hit lair, get ovie transport + movespeed AND a baneling nest (hidden even maybe would work well) And then what you could do is send one suicide ovie when sacs are almost done to pinpoint where thors are, and then use 2 ovies full BOTH on the main base, and drop. Kill ~10-15 scvs will slow him down. Now, from there nydusing the corner, OR even ON TOP of his cliff (in lost temple anyways) Could work very well, Or you can send more scout ovies (its funny, beacuse after the first drop, they usually retreat their SCVS as soon as they see an ovie in their base with banlinegs or not) to distract him and pinpoint thors again. After sending in ovie after ovie to distract him, you can choose anotther time to baneling drop (expo hopefully) which would work well at DELAYING this push until you can get sufficient broodlords. BUT: I'm going to further test this in ladder now ^^ | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On May 27 2010 05:55 Konsume wrote: also... Terrans are pretty fast producers with their 5-7 factoes, 4-5 barrack 2-3 starports I'm pretty sure that "5-7 factoes, 4-5 barrack 2-3 starports" with addons cost much more than Hive tech and one of each zerg structure. You have the option to suddenly use 100% of your production facilities to make air while the Terran has the option to use 10% of his production facilities to build air. And you can't expect a Terran to start pumping mass vikings as soon as he scouts your Hive. That would just be retarded since you can just respond by not making air. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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sacrificetheory
United States98 Posts
It is not only popular concensus it is fact. I find it offensive anyone who doesnt agree.,, they are basically calling all of us crappy Zerg players including the pros who find it imbalanced. Anyways in regards to strat... ive been working on straight roach defend/harass early to + mass speedlings/roach/ bling drop .... and other variations of an all- in... im just done trying to go macro against Tmech... | ||
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SureYouCan
United States38 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
- this one he used early thors and helions while I went muta. When he ran over my base I didn't want to come back and defend with mutas as he had too many thors. If it was any other combination of units I would have defended. Later I was depressed and wasn't paying much attention so I forgot to spawn larva and use all the larva I could for drones/troops. - here I just got raped by ground units with no chance of survival. - this one I won but Terran used a very stupid early cheese that should not work this way. This map needs to be fixed. Any comments and advice is welcome. I am currently an average Platinum (old Gold) player. | ||
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Actua
Canada101 Posts
Thors are good vs mutas, but they cant keep up, and they're really expensive. Dont get like 9 mutas, get enough so that if he moves his thors away by 5 meters, youl be in his mineral line snipin all his turrets, and killing most of his scvs if he really went far with em. Get enough mutas so that if he thinks hes smart with his 1 thor and 3 turrets next to his SCVs youl be in there snipin everything and gone in a sec ( mutas will rape 1 thor btw. ) If he s massing turrets and thors, and its impossible to get even close, well, your second and third should be saturated when he even thinks of moving out, and you should have by then: 1.alot of mutas 2.alot of roaches 3.upgrades looking like 1 armor for ground, 1 armor for air, 1 attack for air ( thats where I m usually at) 3. alot of banlings, too, if he has marines | ||
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evilm0nkey
53 Posts
Give the ultralisk an ability that reduces tank splash damage dealt to nearby units, allowing the Zerg army to get get closer to the tanks without getting totally owned, alongside with speed and health buffs obviously. Nothing like dark swarm, just well balanced damage reduction. Make it an upgrade that replaces the +2 armor carapace upgrade, wich is quite useless right now. With that new ability, Zerg could probably play zergling / roach / ultralisk against tank / thor / hellion. For PvZ, this could be a good counter to mass Archons, wich was quite OP in SC:BW lategame (dunno really about sc2). Shouldn't affect Collossus splash tho. And, Blizzard would finally have some role for the ultraliks  | ||
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
Don't expect to win unless you have two more bases than T. If hes low on AA get mutas, if he has no vikings get broods, if hes got AA and lots of tanks, go ultraling. That's what I have found to be most successful, but when I'm doing this I literally have over 50% more income than the terran so -shrug-. Also, for that first early push where he tries to siege your nat: ling/bling/infestor | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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