I hate to say it, but you have to do something you're not going to want to do... Broodlord/corrupter.
This is a pretty late game strat and so you should have sufficient income by this point to support like 5/6 brolords and 4/5 corrupters.
This is what the game looks like: Zerg standard opens, say 13/14/15 pool - 14/15/16 hatch. Around 25 supply if you send a scout you will likely see a factory/rax switch, or a rax with no add on. Once you've spotted this, it's time for mass roaches, while you tech to greater spire in the background. Roaches are cheap enough that you can do this off of 2 bases, a 3rd coming in at some point.
Basically, the idea is that you have to a) hide the greater spire as best you can by using an overlord to crap creep in some corner, and you need to make this part of your plan. You can't just be like "Oh shit, he's got a lot of mech." Then panic swap. By then it's too late. Don't bother upgrading the air units, save that for the roaches in case you need to go back to Hyda/Roach. You'll need to do that if he starts cranking out too many vikings. But if he does this, then you can easily handle the lighter load of mech.
IMO: Ultras are worse now.... They died so easily before, But now they die even easier, As well, Other units such as lings and/or raoches just block these bad boys from getting any hits. Best way to combat it is NOT broodlords / corruptors early (once they scout your lack of units they can just push) But to just harass them as much as possible and HOPE they cannot push out too fast.
My experience is, that even with 4-5 broodlords, their marines and even a couple vikings will P-W-N any of my broodlords without even worrying about the corruptors at all, not to mention i will have nearly NO ground army at this time, so his marines will walk in freely...
Yep ultras are worse now TT. I had better results from them pre patch. I've abandoned hope for them all together because blizzard will probably not reverse the changes or admit that it was a nerf overall. I'm trying to get to broodlords every game with mixed results.
Infested terrans are even more useless now given the huge mana cost and I've been unable to use contaminate against terrans successfully since their lowest teir unit is anti air so they can keep my overseers away easily. Frenzy never gets used because if I have infestors I always get neural parasite and that spell is always getting priority with my first 100 energy.
GdR v LzGaMeR 1 - GdR tries ultra/roach -> fail. Once critical mass of tanks is reached, ultras die to siege tanks before they can get within range. Although I'm surprised GdR didn't use burrow at all
GdR v LzGaMeR 2 - in this game GdR tries a variety of things:
roach drops -> fail, tanks kill roaches, although I think he could have done better if he had dropped directly on the tanks fast broodlords -> fail, some vikings kill them Infestors for NP -> fail, infestors die and even when they succeed they don't do enough damage broodlords backed by hydras -> fail, tanks outrange hydras and vikings outrange broodlords
No contest, after trying out just about everything, Lz just steamrolls with some A-move and periodically sieging all his tanks
On May 27 2010 01:02 BlasiuS wrote: take the resources you spent on melee upgrades, ultra cavern, ultra upgrades, & ultra, and spend it on corruptor/brood lords instead. You would have easily beaten that army. only 2-3 thors, and no vikings.
Broodlords are one hell of a bad idea that you guys must stop using. As soon as you'll face a good Tmech you'll learn that they will use 2 starports/reactors to pump medivacs and switch to vickings as soon as needed. Basicaly what I'm saying is not to forget about BL, it's just not the right thing to do in the long run. It's only one harass to force em to make vickings and lose money over it. it's like when you go mutas to force them to do turrets/thors....
Broodlord is good to own tanks, DUH! they are air and tanks can't hit them. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use them if they over do the tank thing but... it's CLEARLY not what most Tmechs are doing (at least the ones i'm playing)... when it is supported by hellions/vickings, your broodlords are just a total waste of money and supply.
The reason I didn't do any "broodlords" in this game is simple.... I used an overseer to scout that he had not 2 starports but 3. 2 had a reactor and 1 had a lab. So I knew that broodlords would do notthing at all.
I just miss the defiler "Dark Swarm" ability.
As for ultras and melee upgrade.... SLush which is one of the top NA zerg player right now (arguably the best NA zerg player) told me that Ultra + ling + infestors are the solution to Tmech. I was one of the broodlord fans before and (as i've told you in this post) told me to stop using them as they are pretty much useless vs most good Tmech. As soon as I started to use this combo, my ZvsTmech went from a 20mins game to 50+ min games (when loosing) so it's definatly working. I need to work on the timming and all but overall it's a better strat than all-in broodlords.
anyways, you can't say that this matchup is fair as it is cause... equal skills ZvT the T should almost always win due to this strat. I'm not saying it's UNBEATABLE... but you must admit that it is clearly giving a HUGE edge to the terrans!
The problem with ultra ling infestors is that you need to get to the late game (ie hive tech). Lings and infestors definitely aren't enough to stop a timing push by the Terran with a good number of hellions and tanks.
On May 27 2010 01:02 BlasiuS wrote: take the resources you spent on melee upgrades, ultra cavern, ultra upgrades, & ultra, and spend it on corruptor/brood lords instead. You would have easily beaten that army. only 2-3 thors, and no vikings.
Broodlords are one hell of a bad idea that you guys must stop using. As soon as you'll face a good Tmech you'll learn that they will use 2 starports/reactors to pump medivacs and switch to vickings as soon as needed. Basicaly what I'm saying is not to forget about BL, it's just not the right thing to do in the long run. It's only one harass to force em to make vickings and lose money over it. it's like when you go mutas to force them to do turrets/thors....
BS. Broodlords ARE the answer. You only need a few to pwn all of his ground units. You SHOULD have a bigger income than him at that point since you should have more bases. You SHOULD be making MASS corruptors (or mutas) which got BUFFED a lot against vikings. You SHOULD be able to pump more corruptors than he can pump vikings. GG right there if you make it to broodlords. Terran has no ground to armored air units.
On May 27 2010 02:33 link0 wrote: BS. Broodlords ARE the answer. You only need a few to pwn all of his ground units. You SHOULD have a bigger income than him at that point since you should have more bases. You SHOULD be making MASS corruptors (or mutas) which got BUFFED a lot against vikings. You SHOULD be able to pump more corruptors than he can pump vikings. GG right there if you make it to broodlords. Terran has no ground to armored air units.
humm... I don't know who you are in game and which league you are playing on (My guess would be that you were platinum before reset and made it to diamond) but when it comes to
SLush vs You
Who do you think I'll listen to? Like I said... at some point we all tried broodlords and at some point we all had success with it... but when you get higher and play vs old 2000+ platinum terran you find yourself in the deepest shiet ever... when fighting with broods cause vickings + thors are all they need to win against ANY air units you can throw at them. Thors > Mutas | Vickings > Brood and Corrupters
Tell me im dumb for listening to SLush which isn't doing any broods and wins by running with lings, ultra and infestors.... but like I said.... I will keep doing this build till I do it right since it's working in the high end of the ladder.
Edit: Hell even Lz is currently owning with it and top ladder players aren't able to stop him YET! EVEN WITH BROODS!
I think you must be leaving something out when you say Ultra + ling + infestors is the solution to terran mech.
In that if you build only lings, then add in infestors, and finally ultras the terran army will be pretty much be perfectly configured to annialiate your army (mass helions and tanks). Not to mention many mech builds incorporate banshees which you wouldn't be able to handle well.
Now if your were you were to go through a series of transitions I can see it potentially working. (Which is what I imagin is what slush had in mind and that composition is just for end game)
What looks fairly good on paper would be to open with roaches making helions rather ineffective making the terran cut back on them, then transition into mutas haras (only 5-6 of them) to force thor production and handle banshees, finally when the terran moves out with an army of primarily thors and tanks it might be possibile to churn out enough lings with ultra and infestor support to over run the terran army composition.
On May 26 2010 21:41 Konsume wrote: I had all tech (including broodlords and ultra) In a normal fight I had 3-4 ultras ~30-40 lings 20 hydras 4-5 infestors (for fungal and NP as frenzy isn't THAT good besides on ultras(I think)) [note that at the end I tryed to add 5-10 roaches in each pack without any success] [note that I also tryed broodlords but he just pumped 4-5 vickings to own them]
Fights would look like:
Frenzy ultras Send ultras Fungal x4 NP 3x tanks 1x Thor send lings/hydras Other tank focus my infestors (infestor dies) all my army vanish
Since you obviously said that you're uploading the replay later, I'll wait mostly til then. Attacking Mech balls units is horrible in general with how they work. Burrowed Roaches and dropping units onto the Terran ball is incredibly effective and can help so much since you don't lose units trying to get in range. Sure, Thors can shot Overlords down, but they don't shoot them down fast enough if they're skimping by on 2-3 Thors and you do a proper Overlord surround drop from at least two or three locations. Ultras work fine and well if you can get them to deal damage for the most part since they don't tank as well but do pretty good damage from the previous game. Fungal Growths over the whole army can be abused, Fungal Growth suicides can be extremely effective at slowing down and weakening the push.
The biggest problem I'm having is that you're trying to quote a strategy another player has told you, but I have not seen anything about the specifics from any posts in this thread. It feels less like a discussion and more like you just want to simply advocate an idea and that it is the only way to play against Mech. Please elaborate more.
we're not rushing straight to ultras that would be stupid! By the time we get to the ultra fights.... you have access to all units available to the zerg arsenal! Many switches are made before we get to the ultra+lings+infestors combo!
On May 27 2010 03:42 Celestial wrote: Since you obviously said that you're uploading the replay later, I'll wait mostly til then.
[...]
The biggest problem I'm having is that you're trying to quote a strategy another player has told you, but I have not seen anything about the specifics from any posts in this thread. It feels less like a discussion and more like you just want to simply advocate an idea and that it is the only way to play against Mech. Please elaborate more.
Yah I'll upload it tonight as soon as I get home which is in approximatly 6 hours from now.
And ofcourse i'm not giving all the specifics... I'm just saying that "broodlords" aren't the solution which has been proven many times vs Lz in replays we've seen in this verry thread. I'm also saying that Tmech is a bit imba right now... as it's totaly wrecking everything in 2secs or less
and I'm FAR from pro at using this strat cause I just started using it yesterday after I spoke with SLush. So I'm FAR from knowing everything I should know about it... just barely testing it since yesterday. All I know is that SLush TOTALY owns with it and that it improved my game vs Tmech by ALOT!
I might even be able to get you 1-2 replays from slush since he's chilling in my vent. So I might be able to upload them.
On May 27 2010 02:33 link0 wrote: BS. Broodlords ARE the answer. You only need a few to pwn all of his ground units. You SHOULD have a bigger income than him at that point since you should have more bases. You SHOULD be making MASS corruptors (or mutas) which got BUFFED a lot against vikings. You SHOULD be able to pump more corruptors than he can pump vikings. GG right there if you make it to broodlords. Terran has no ground to armored air units.
humm... I don't know who you are in game and which league you are playing on (My guess would be that you were platinum before reset and made it to diamond) but when it comes to
SLush vs You
Who do you think I'll listen to? Like I said... at some point we all tried broodlords and at some point we all had success with it... but when you get higher and play vs old 2000+ platinum terran you find yourself in the deepest shiet ever... when fighting with broods cause vickings + thors are all they need to win against ANY air units you can throw at them. Thors > Mutas | Vickings > Brood and Corrupters
Tell me im dumb for listening to SLush which isn't doing any broods and wins by running with lings, ultra and infestors.... but like I said.... I will keep doing this build till I do it right since it's working in the high end of the ladder.
Edit: Hell even Lz is currently owning with it and top ladder players aren't able to stop him YET! EVEN WITH BROODS!
I made it up to Plat 2100 with Terran before reset, but that's besides the point. With all due respect, Slush is a great player. However, the current T mech build is relatively new. Just because he is a great player doesn't mean he is already using the optimal strategy to adapt to T's new build. He is also a zerg player, so naturally, will be baised in his opinions when speaking casually (to you in private).
My post included reasons and solid logic on why broodlords and corruptors would work. A proper response would be appreciated.
Some people have mentioned burrowed roaches. The problem there is any half decent player as numerous counters to that. #1. they can see you when you are moving while burrowed
#2. They will have turrets protecting their base areas and/or army usually.
#3. They will usually attack with a raven
#4. Even if they can't see your roaches burrowed (graphics settings), terran mech makes very good use of sensor towers due to their lower mobility. All you need is like 1 sensor tower, on some maps maybe 2, then you scan with orbital command. You can annilhate all their roaches before they deal much damage at all
#5. I've tried a massive army of burried roaches vs thor-hellion-siege tank army (probably also had numerous marauders but i can't remember exactly), and unburrowed on his units, and just got STOMPED. I unburrowed the roaches and moved the lings in at about the same time, and just lost all my units very damn fast.
On May 27 2010 02:33 link0 wrote: BS. Broodlords ARE the answer. You only need a few to pwn all of his ground units. You SHOULD have a bigger income than him at that point since you should have more bases. You SHOULD be making MASS corruptors (or mutas) which got BUFFED a lot against vikings. You SHOULD be able to pump more corruptors than he can pump vikings. GG right there if you make it to broodlords. Terran has no ground to armored air units.
humm... I don't know who you are in game and which league you are playing on (My guess would be that you were platinum before reset and made it to diamond) but when it comes to
SLush vs You
Who do you think I'll listen to? Like I said... at some point we all tried broodlords and at some point we all had success with it... but when you get higher and play vs old 2000+ platinum terran you find yourself in the deepest shiet ever... when fighting with broods cause vickings + thors are all they need to win against ANY air units you can throw at them. Thors > Mutas | Vickings > Brood and Corrupters
Tell me im dumb for listening to SLush which isn't doing any broods and wins by running with lings, ultra and infestors.... but like I said.... I will keep doing this build till I do it right since it's working in the high end of the ladder.
Edit: Hell even Lz is currently owning with it and top ladder players aren't able to stop him YET! EVEN WITH BROODS!
I actually thought prepatch 13 that ultras were super effective against mech. I used them in every game against mech and I won most of those games. Now I don't use them so much because of the 450 hp nerf, they just die way too easily to the thor's cannon thingy, focus fire, and a critical amount of tanks. Whereas before I found that my ultras lasted a hell of a long time against a frightening mech ball (4~thors, 10 tanks, mass hellions, a few mauarders).
I don't know though because when I engaged his army I didn't have frenzy admittedly.
I mean how would you open up here? roach/hydra/infestor into ultra ling? That's what I did in the past but I think I'm more dependent on mutas nowadays. How do you deal with a possible 4-5 banshee harass in the late game?
Also, I'd just like to add that I think we should be dropping more versus terran in general. Picking off mules/scvs/tanks on the cliff has got to take its toll on the terran.
EPT
