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RPGabe
United States192 Posts
I think the economic impact of hard-rushing Reapers is being downplayed here. The Terran has to cut SCVs and go to gas early. Additionally, once the first stalker is out, that's it, reaper harass is effectively over. Lastly, if the Reaper isn't supposed to be a harassment threat early game, then it needs to be redesigned completely or removed because it's almost useless after the first few minutes of gameplay. edit: and three of us just made the exact same post, awesome. | ||
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h0munkulus
Austria1481 Posts
but you have to think "how do i counter this so i'm ahead in worker count/economy after i repel the early reaper harass". as someone mentioned the "break even point" for terran is around 4 probes. so as long as you don't lose more than 4 probes you are actually even or ahead. crucial points to achieve this: - pylon behind mineral line - worker micro - chrono boost on stalker (but only 1 use rest for probes) 8 pylon seems to work better than standard 9 pylon. but 8 pylon alone is not a huge hit. you can then build gate at 10 or 11 food. it really depends on how confident you are in your micro. i guess bottom line is that this super early reaper sucks. because you are bound to lose probes. and it is a pain in the ass to get rid of well microed reapers. so it is definitly one of the rushes blizzard doesn't want (super easy to do, very hard to stop). but it's not a default loss! | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On April 03 2010 04:36 h0munkulus wrote: [...] o.o; Rename yourself, imposter! jk lol | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
I feel that if it was super easy for protoss to get stalkers out before reapers arrived they wouldn't be much of a unit worth building. Reapers barely do anything against zerg as it is. | ||
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
The thing I see from your second video is that the lack of zealot, that one zealot could of effectively stop the scv from building those two bunker that seriously put the hurting on you. Try it with a boosted zealot as the core is warping in and you will see a major different. Obviously being that zealot are slow as sin, it will be almost useless against a player good micro. However, what that zealot will do is drop your prob death count from something like 10 down to just 3 or 5 max. The important thing here is your zealot control. You want to zealot to pretty much make that reaper really work for every single prob kill that it does and keep it close to your prob line. Do not chase after the reaper so that it can just circle around and kill a probe or 2 by the time your zealot catch up. Micro it in a way where the most the reaper can get off is 1 or 2 shot before your zealot should be right on it ass again. Those 30 second where the reaper is hammering your base will be the the longest 30 seconds of the game. However, if you can survive it will anything less than 6 prob death you should be at a pretty good economy advantage. Also, you build your assimilator too early, by the time you were able to build your stalker, you have a whole 50 gas left over. The assimilator can be pushed back to 14 and you will still have enough gas for the stalker once core finished. | ||
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shockwave.xpow
31 Posts
Ends up there's really not that much of a difference. After 4 minutes: Standard build: 1875 resources, 408 collection rate, 19 workers Reaper build: 1850 resources, 378 collection rate, 15 workers I did this on same start, same rally points for workers, on just fast speed (I'll try slowest next time if I can stomach it). This analysis is oversimplistic because I was using MULEs, and stopping after 4 minutes was fairly arbitrary. I'll want to do some more testing on this. But let me offer a theory: Going 11rax doesn't hurt you THAT badly. The reason is that MULEs in early game are a huge income source as opposed to your number of workers, so even though in one case you have 15 workers and the other case 19 , the MULE counts for like 5-6 SCVs so the discrepancy isn't so great. And because you're getting an earlier rax, you're getting your first MULE out earlier, which starts the income bonus early. Without MULEs, it would be obvious that going 10 or 11rax is very punishing to economy, but MULEs kinda make up for this. I don't think this means that we should all prefer to go 11rax (since having the 4 extra SCVs is substantial in the long run), but it's not like this is comparable to a 9pool where if you don't kill a ton of probes it's GG for you. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
On April 03 2010 05:07 shockwave.xpow wrote: I just did a simple braindead comparison where I timed resources between a standard (10depot, 12rax) build versus the marauder/reaper (11rax, 11gas, 11depot) build. Ends up there's really not that much of a difference. After 4 minutes: Standard build: 1875 resources, 408 collection rate, 19 workers Reaper build: 1850 resources, 378 collection rate, 15 workers Thing is, this difference only grows over time. After 4 minutes there is indeed not much of a difference, especially since 10 sup 12 rax builds finish the OC at about 3:30 IIRC. But even in your test you see that 10 sup 12 rax 15 OC has both more money and more importantly faster income than 10 rax 11 sup. I ran tests on this up to 30 workers a while back. I don't have the numbers any more. Someone else in the forums posted a topic on 10 rax 11 sup vs 11 sup 12 rax if you want to search for it. | ||
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Phanekim
United States777 Posts
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
On April 03 2010 02:53 TSL-Lore wrote: zerg FE gets completely shut down by this as well. I discussed it in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118166 it seems these new reaper rush builds need somewhat of a re-balance .. anything that comes that early in the game shouldn't require such a drastic response as to change the entire match up. except for epic scv rushes or something. What the hell are you doing in this thread too?? You're complaining that you can't FAST EXPAND as zerg??? The protoss can't get A SINGLE COUNTER in time without suffering losses! I can't believe I took your other thread seriously. I hope you have nightmares about reapers. | ||
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 03 2010 09:55 Vexx wrote: What the hell are you doing in this thread too?? You're complaining that you can't FAST EXPAND as zerg??? The protoss can't get A SINGLE COUNTER in time without suffering losses! I can't believe I took your other thread seriously. I hope you have nightmares about reapers. This is just needless trolling. Reapers are a legitimate concern in high level games, especially now that they fell out of style for a while so people aren't always checking for them. Please refrain from posting comments like these again. I thought the original alpha didn't allow reapers to be put in bunkers. I vote going back to that. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
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refraxion
Canada88 Posts
On April 03 2010 02:54 AltCtrlDel wrote: The Zealots should have a burst sprint ability (With cool down timer, not lasting too long) from the beginning to balance it out in this rush scenario or any .. just enough to track down a Reaper and at least combat it .. (Then if you wanted to after then "research" the ability that it currently has in the game) Reaper could micro skillfully to try and battle 2 or 3 Zeal's off which would be fair. <-- My 2 cents.. =X No, no they shouldn't. That would make zealots pretty imba early on too. | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
Tech Lab: Cost decreased from 50 Minerals and 50 Vespene Gas to 50 Minerals and 25 Vespene Gas. i guess that didnt help at all. i dont know how blizzard is gonna fix that issue, i think the good way to solve this is not buffing toss or nerfing terran because it would just fuck up TvZ or PvZ... maybe reaper should come later in terran game but be a little more durable... thats my opinion but of course it take a lot of testing before taking a decision... | ||
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
On April 03 2010 10:55 Floophead_III wrote: This is just needless trolling. Reapers are a legitimate concern in high level games, especially now that they fell out of style for a while so people aren't always checking for them. Please refrain from posting comments like these again. I thought the original alpha didn't allow reapers to be put in bunkers. I vote going back to that. doesnt make sense for me. a bunkerrush with reapers + sacrificing economy seems like a logical counter to a fe for me. so why you want to make this counter weaker, with allowing only marines/marauders only to get into the bunker? if player A decides to go fe and player B decides to go a strategy against that even before scouting he should win or shouldnt he? | ||
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SirNeb
United States243 Posts
I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 03 2010 12:49 SirNeb wrote: reapers are already pretty much useless, if you nerf it anymore, might as well just take them out of the game. They are pretty much just somewhat useful when the armies are very small. I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese. You know what'd do that? Bringing back the old d8 charges. You could use them in so many cool ways. I was really looking forward to using them when I saw that first battle report way back when. Am I the only person on TL who misses those things? | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On April 03 2010 12:49 SirNeb wrote: reapers are already pretty much useless, if you nerf it anymore, might as well just take them out of the game. They are pretty much just somewhat useful when the armies are very small. I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese. First off, I have to disagree with you there. Maybe it's only because we're 2v2ing but often when I 2v2 random and get Terran I will mass reaper for fun. You can run into someone's base and 2shot a nexus with not too many of them and there's literally absolutely nothing your opponent can do to stop it. Every time I mass reapers I convince myself of how OP they are vs buildings. In any case, I don't think reapers need a nerf, I think the tech lab needs a nerf. They should put the cost back up to where it was and make it take like 10 seconds longer. | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13921 Posts
 reapers are faster than the zealot and a good player will ignore the zealot and still kill your probes with ease. | ||
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ADAM.1
United States36 Posts
I mean this with respect but you are probably one of the most... annoying players that seem to be decent at this game. What surprises me for having some good understanding of the game is how much you cry about this build when you absolutely didn't even micro your probes what so ever. You would rather just type in chat about how imbalanced the game is. That early Reaper build is a good and risky opener that is able to be dealt with. You complain about how much the game is imbalanced but yet you play all the time. Reapers don't need a nerf, you just need to shut your mouth and micro. p.s. I watched both Replays... lol it was sad. And by sad I mean the lack of effort to even try to stop it. | ||
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