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On May 07 2010 01:37 Alou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 00:52 Eyeon wrote:On May 07 2010 00:50 Alou wrote:On May 07 2010 00:46 Eyeon wrote:On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote:
Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot. the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all) He's not saying kill the entire base with one zealot. He is saying, use your zealot to force the reaper to defend while you get a stalker. I never thought of this, might try it. why would he bother defending his main when he can lift and and kill everything you have with a reaper? Because you'll still have a base and be making units/buildings? He won't lift off because of one zealot. He isnt going to say "OMG A ZEALOT!! LIFTOFF HURRY!!" He will either defend with the reaper and delay his attack on you or just let it do some damage. You'll still have the zealot. You'll be able to get a second zealot or a stalker in your base. It isn't some reaper/zealot building kill off contest. This isn't an all in strategy. Building a zealot is a pretty safe idea. I'm not sure where you're getting this crazy "I'll just build a reaper and lift off my buildings" idea
why retreat when you have no reason to? by bypassing the reaper you let the reaper have free reign on your probes until you get a stalker out, assuming you can get one out.
with a proxy rax(which is what we are talking about), the terran has no defenses in his base, so yes, a zealot would essentially be racing a reaper, in which case all the terran has to do to beat you in that race is lift off.
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On May 07 2010 02:40 Eyeon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 01:37 Alou wrote:On May 07 2010 00:52 Eyeon wrote:On May 07 2010 00:50 Alou wrote:On May 07 2010 00:46 Eyeon wrote:On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote:
Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot. the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all) He's not saying kill the entire base with one zealot. He is saying, use your zealot to force the reaper to defend while you get a stalker. I never thought of this, might try it. why would he bother defending his main when he can lift and and kill everything you have with a reaper? Because you'll still have a base and be making units/buildings? He won't lift off because of one zealot. He isnt going to say "OMG A ZEALOT!! LIFTOFF HURRY!!" He will either defend with the reaper and delay his attack on you or just let it do some damage. You'll still have the zealot. You'll be able to get a second zealot or a stalker in your base. It isn't some reaper/zealot building kill off contest. This isn't an all in strategy. Building a zealot is a pretty safe idea. I'm not sure where you're getting this crazy "I'll just build a reaper and lift off my buildings" idea why retreat when you have no reason to? by bypassing the reaper you let the reaper have free reign on your probes until you get a stalker out, assuming you can get one out. with a proxy rax(which is what we are talking about), the terran has no defenses in his base, so yes, a zealot would essentially be racing a reaper, in which case all the terran has to do to beat you in that race is lift off.
If he proxies, you'll get in his base, he'll get in yours. You'll be able to get a stalker out in decent time after the reaper like always and kill it, he'll still have nothing in your base. It isn't going to turn into a Reaper vs Zealot building destroying showdown. You'll kill his reaper after he takes out some probes, and you'll probably take out some scv's with your zealot. There isn't going to be a building destroying contest because you'll have units, and he will have units. It isn't going to be some all in strategy where he has to kill your nexus with his first two reapers or something. You're not massing zealots and sending them to his base, you're using your first one to hopefully delay his first reaper.
You'll stop the reaper after you lose some probes, he'll probably stop zealot after some scvs. However, if he doesn't proxy, he might delay the reaper getting to your base so by the time he does, you have a stalker out and can defend it without losing some probes. I'm not sure where you guys are getting this Reaper vs Zealot who can kill buildings faster. Yeah he might not have buildings in his base, but you're not going to be able to take down all the scv's and the command center with a single zealot. I dont see why any Terran would take the time to lift off, when he can probably kill the zealot with some scv's or send a reaper back to his base to defend.
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On May 07 2010 03:22 Alou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 02:40 Eyeon wrote:On May 07 2010 01:37 Alou wrote:On May 07 2010 00:52 Eyeon wrote:On May 07 2010 00:50 Alou wrote:On May 07 2010 00:46 Eyeon wrote:On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote:
Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot. the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all) He's not saying kill the entire base with one zealot. He is saying, use your zealot to force the reaper to defend while you get a stalker. I never thought of this, might try it. why would he bother defending his main when he can lift and and kill everything you have with a reaper? Because you'll still have a base and be making units/buildings? He won't lift off because of one zealot. He isnt going to say "OMG A ZEALOT!! LIFTOFF HURRY!!" He will either defend with the reaper and delay his attack on you or just let it do some damage. You'll still have the zealot. You'll be able to get a second zealot or a stalker in your base. It isn't some reaper/zealot building kill off contest. This isn't an all in strategy. Building a zealot is a pretty safe idea. I'm not sure where you're getting this crazy "I'll just build a reaper and lift off my buildings" idea why retreat when you have no reason to? by bypassing the reaper you let the reaper have free reign on your probes until you get a stalker out, assuming you can get one out. with a proxy rax(which is what we are talking about), the terran has no defenses in his base, so yes, a zealot would essentially be racing a reaper, in which case all the terran has to do to beat you in that race is lift off. If he proxies, you'll get in his base, he'll get in yours. You'll be able to get a stalker out in decent time after the reaper like always and kill it, he'll still have nothing in your base. It isn't going to turn into a Reaper vs Zealot building destroying showdown. You'll kill his reaper after he takes out some probes, and you'll probably take out some scv's with your zealot. There isn't going to be a building destroying contest because you'll have units, and he will have units. It isn't going to be some all in strategy where he has to kill your nexus with his first two reapers or something. You're not massing zealots and sending them to his base, you're using your first one to hopefully delay his first reaper. You'll stop the reaper after you lose some probes, he'll probably stop zealot after some scvs. However, if he doesn't proxy, he might delay the reaper getting to your base so by the time he does, you have a stalker out and can defend it without losing some probes. I'm not sure where you guys are getting this Reaper vs Zealot who can kill buildings faster. Yeah he might not have buildings in his base, but you're not going to be able to take down all the scv's and the command center with a single zealot. I dont see why any Terran would take the time to lift off, when he can probably kill the zealot with some scv's or send a reaper back to his base to defend.
ok, first off: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE 6RAX PROXY. this is the only thing we haven't found a true counter to yet. and no, you can't get a stalker out fast enough without losing half of your probes(id show you a replay of me testing it against a friend when i knew he was proxy raxing and altering the build for fast stalker, but alas... bnet is down for US and i can't find the replay... i'll find it when US comes back up and post it)
also, you're exactly right. you're not gonna take down any SCVs with a zealot. an SCV has the same speed as a zealot, so with proper micro, an SCV would never die from a single zealot, particularly in his own base. and a terran wouldn't send his proxy units to defend. that defeats the whole purpose of a proxy, particularly when he has a perfectly viable alternative if he sucks at micro: lifting off. why waste your whole proxy rush strategy when you can keep attacking and not worry about defending. saying "oh, he can send a reaper back to his base to defend" is a pointless argument, as there is more to lose by defending with the reaper than there is to attack with the reaper.
also, you're not gonna be delaying his reaper by sending a zealot into his base unless you yourself proxied. you zealot isn't going to make it to his base before his reaper comes out, so unless he sees your zealot run past his rax, he'd have no idea it was comming. so he wouldn't stop his reaper because your zealot was on his way to his base for two reasons: one, he proxied, so hes committed to his rush and second, he wouldn't know your zealot was on the way.
in addition, once he sees you have a stalker, or rather, are teching to stalker, as you would not have one out before the reaper gets to your base, the next unit he will make is a maurader, which would destroy the stalker, particularly if he gets the bunker down.
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if 6 rax proxy reaper rush was actually unbeatable, i think i would actually see it used.. but i dont... maybe because i'm too high level of a platinum player and the tournaments i play don't have trash players...
guess lower tier players see this alot and have problems with it... i guess thats why they are lower tier players...
there are countless solutions on this figgen 30 page thread... if you still can't put 2 and 2 together then i dont think 6 rax reaper is your only problem... seriously...
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On May 07 2010 03:55 NightOne wrote:
if 6 rax proxy reaper rush was actually unbeatable, i think i would actually see it used.. but i dont... maybe because i'm too high level of a platinum player and the tournaments i play don't have trash players...
guess lower tier players see this alot and have problems with it... i guess thats why they are lower tier players...
there are countless solutions on this figgen 30 page thread... if you still can't put 2 and 2 together then i dont think 6 rax reaper is your only problem... seriously...
then enlighten me, since you're a better player than everyone in this thread who has been banging their heads together including orb to find a counter for this build, how do i counter 6rax proxy reaper? after skimming over the thread that ive read twice before i still can't find the 2 and 2 to add.
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i have like 20 posts in this thread... i have already discussed 6 proxy reaper open... if you don't want to take the time to find it, i don't want to take the time to explain how this thread is completely out-dated now...
if you can't accept the fact that you'll lose a couple probes to a 6 rax reaper opening then maybe you should play terran and open 6 rax reaper every game vs protoss and see how far u go...
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Eyeon:
I had problem with this rush as well, and I have a solution for you if you play Protoss. Best thing to do is build everything by your Nexus and go straight for a stalker with CB. He will get into your base before the stalker is out, but it wont do nearly enough damage to make it worth it. As for Terran and Zerg it comes down to an early scout. If it's a 1v1 map you should expect some kind of cheese from your enemy and scout your main and just outside it to make sure nothing fishy is going on. It will set you a little bit behind, but at least you won't lose the game.
*edit*
Also, I have a replay of a friend doing the 6Rax-Fast-Reaper build on me (I am playing Protoss). Yes I knew it was coming, but my build order and building placement would not have changed even if he wasn't doing this cheese. Notice how he stopped my mining for a decent amount of time, but after it was all said and done I had a lot more probes then he does and I lost minimal amount of probes.
PM me your email if you want to see it.
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Ah. I see what you're saying. I kind of like not having my stalker in time. I mean if we Protoss players manage to get it quicker in a safe economically viable way, what's stopping us from the Stalker becoming the new reaper for another race? Losing a few probes to a proxy is not that big of a deal in my opinion. Their economy will be just as horrid as mine is.
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I like scouting with my 6th drone after one carry of mineral. In a 2v2 map, if you see 5 scv on mineral, just cannon up and you win. If you see him making a depot, attack it, and build to stalkers fast.
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On May 08 2010 07:33 GoodNewsJim wrote:
I like scouting with my 6th drone after one carry of mineral. In a 2v2 map, if you see 5 scv on mineral, just cannon up and you win. If you see him making a depot, attack it, and build to stalkers fast.
And if he went standard you've just put yourself in behind..
The point is to find a safe opening that doesn't leave you behind vs standard or reaper rush.
slightly tested theorycraft
+ Show Spoiler +And even if he does proper proxy 6rax reaper the reaper should get there right when your first cannon warps in due to the early economic hit you took scouting that early (assuming pylon on 9, forge on 10 which is about as early as you get to scout him with your 6th probe after one mining cycle). From earlier discussions it takes 2 pylons and 4 cannons to completely cover your main from any reaper damage. Going this opening you have no units so he can keep that initial reaper alive which should force you to build all the necessary defense, then you can't FE behind cannon because he can just hang that reaper between your main and your natural until you get a very delayed stalker out while building himself an economy and transitioning to something normal.
This doesn't seem like a good option.
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lol love the title of your replay
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On May 08 2010 14:38 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2010 07:33 GoodNewsJim wrote:
I like scouting with my 6th drone after one carry of mineral. In a 2v2 map, if you see 5 scv on mineral, just cannon up and you win. If you see him making a depot, attack it, and build to stalkers fast. And if he went standard you've just put yourself in behind.. This doesn't seem like a good option.
If you get to his base, and he has 5 SCV's, he is not going standard. Even building cannons will not negate a 5-6 worker advantage that early in the game.
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EPT
