So a Terran did a 10 rax into fast reaper build against me and the math on getting out your first stalker is just not adding up to me right now.
From the time the Terran starts his Barracks, it takes 125 seconds for the first reaper to come out. Had my opponent placed his Barracks at the bottom right hand corner of his base (which would be better against all spawns and thus should be done in this build), it would be a 17 second travel time according to the replay to get to my mineral line with his reaper.
This thus makes it a 142 second duration from the start of the barracks to the time the reaper would get to the protoss's mineral line.
From the time the Protoss start's his first Pylon assuming perfect building production (starting each building as soon as the previous finishes), it takes 182 seconds for the first stalker to come out. Assuming you use your chrono boost on the stalker (it takes 2 to do it fully) it will take 171.5 seconds for the first stalker to come out.
This gives Terran a 30 second advantage assuming they start their barracks/pylon at the same time from when the reaper gets to the protoss's mineral line to when the protoss gets out his first Stalker.
With a 10 barracks build the barracks was started around 1:05. With a later tested 9 barracks build the barracks was started around 1:00 (I feel like maybe this wasn't fully optimized? should be more than 5 seconds I think).
Thus in order for the Protoss to get a stalker out in time to prevent reaper damage to his mineral line the Protoss would have to start his Pylon 30 seconds into the game. At this point the Protoss is at 8 food but does not have enough money to build a pylon, and thus the Protoss would have to build the Pylon at 7 food to be able to get the Stalker out on time.
However, if you build your pylon at 7 food you simply will not have enough resources to keep up constant building production so your build will be delayed anyways.
Thus it seems physically impossible to get a stalker out in time even with chrono boosting and ridiculous probe cutting to prevent this kind of reaper harass.
Does this seem balanced to you guys? Forge openings are not viable, so please don't suggest them as the terran will just go 14CC fast expand as soon as he scouts it.
Here's two replays, first of it happening without me knowing what was going on and then later a test game in which I try to cut probes to get out a very fast Stalker:
Oh my God, that kid in the stream who was just "LOL JUST GO FORGE + CANNONS TO HOLD HIM OFF. I DO IT ALL THE TIME" was so annoying >_> I didn't catch the original game, so imma look at that right away.
I'm really torn on these builds. I personally struggle more with the super-fast-marauder rush of doom.
Anyway, my problem is that yes you can hold these off by going overboard preparing for a super fast rush... but... what if they don't rush? I try to scout super early vs terran to see if they are going rax or supply first. It just feels like if I guessed wrong, I'm majorly screwed.
I cut probes and prepared hardcore for that super early reaper. Then I find out my opponent did a normal multi-rax after supply opening, and there's no way I'm going to hold off the M&M&G push.
On April 03 2010 02:43 Fruscainte wrote: Oh my God, that kid in the stream who was just "LOL JUST GO FORGE + CANNONS TO HOLD HIM OFF. I DO IT ALL THE TIME" was so annoying >_> I didn't catch the original game, so imma look at that right away.
Well I think the obvious solution is to rush to carriers. :D
Even if you do figure out something, you have to cut probes really really badly Your economy will be be in horrible shape that in the long run... I also don't see the answer to this :/
I think the only real solution is to expect to lose a few probes -- get a zealot out that can keep pressure on the reaper while you wait for your stalker. You'll make up for the lost probes with chronoboost (as you're already way ahead of terran's worker count).
As you said, fast forge is fail and so is super fast stalker rush (to defend). That doesn't leave many options. You could try blocking some of the common reaper running routes with pylons too -- behind your mins, etc.
I have yet to ran into this myself mostly because I have not been laddering myself lately due to irl issues but from what I've seen it does seem to be a pretty significant disadvantage if you do manage to hold it off. I am a Protoss user so I am not going to say it's imba however I would like to see how some terran's view on how to deal with this kind marauder or reaper aggression.
it seems these new reaper rush builds need somewhat of a re-balance .. anything that comes that early in the game shouldn't require such a drastic response as to change the entire match up.
The Zealots should have a burst sprint ability (With cool down timer, not lasting too long) from the beginning to balance it out in this rush scenario or any .. just enough to track down a Reaper and at least combat it .. (Then if you wanted to after then "research" the ability that it currently has in the game) Reaper could micro skillfully to try and battle 2 or 3 Zeal's off which would be fair. <-- My 2 cents.. =X
I played with torch quite frequently, and he only opens up with this. I go 10 pylon/11 gate and chrono the stalker. It gets your stalker out not very much later than when the reaper shows up. I've experimented with 9 pylon 12/13 gate and I just found it too weak vs early aggression in any matchup. Protoss can be a worker behind for a little bit cause they'll catch up very very quickly with chrono. I've never had an issue with reapers. He can maybe kill 1-2 probes if he has fantastic micro, that's about it.
If you scout fast tech lab without a marine or are just unsure, save a chrono for that stalker, it makes a huge difference.
Jack, he already tested it. Even if you rush STalker from the very beginning (which is stupid to do standard, so you're basically blind building without knowing if he's rushing or not to MAYBE hold off a rush) you're still late for probe harass. Then you're so far behind because you had to massively cut probes to even be remotely ready, that you just get steamrolled in a few minutes anyways.
On April 03 2010 02:59 jackofclubs81 wrote: if u hold off the reaper ull have an advantage, they arent as imba as they used to be use a zeal to buy time for ur stalker
You don't need a zeal if you go 10/11 pylon/gate. That's the point. In the end you'll lose less probes (if any) and be in a BETTER economic shape than if you did 9/12 or 9/13. Your tech is also faster. I'm not saying 9/13 is bad, but I think it's got some risks.
I was practicing vs this reaper build with a friend (he wanted practice vs a protoss) and i did a 8 pylon 10 gate (chrono boost for the fast probes before the pylon is finished too). Throw up your 2nd pylon to block your mineral lines and have a zealot come out before cyber finishes and you can force the reaper to run around (or get stuck and not get behind your mineral line) so he cant do damage.
Im not a great protoss player and i suck at 1v1, but out of all the openings i tried (forge opening, 9/13 gate, cutting probes etc) this worked the best.
10 Barracks Reaper builds cut SCVs significantly. I'll need to watch the replays, but I'd love to know the worker counts on both sides at key points in the build. I bet he's going to need to kill 4 or 5 probes to bring it back to even.
From what i noticed when playing my friend, he cuts scvs at 10 to get stuff out quickly. Then he builds his scvs whenever he has an extra 50 minerals while continuing his tech to fact/port. Normally I keep up more workers than he does the entire game, but im not really good at 1v1 so i never know when i am ahead and i just played defensively entire game (so eventually his harass got to me and he killed me)
aha, I see SC2 is the reverse of SC1, now Terran rage against early game proxie cheese has turned into early game rage against reaper openings lol.
ok, but really, they are cutting/delaying SCVs for the fast reaper to do probe damage, get a zealot/micro probes as best as possible till your stalker is out and you are fine if not even.
On April 03 2010 02:59 jackofclubs81 wrote: if u hold off the reaper ull have an advantage, they arent as imba as they used to be use a zeal to buy time for ur stalker
You don't need a zeal if you go 10/11 pylon/gate. That's the point. In the end you'll lose less probes (if any) and be in a BETTER economic shape than if you did 9/12 or 9/13. Your tech is also faster. I'm not saying 9/13 is bad, but I think it's got some risks.
I´ve seen you testing on your stream, and it really seems a bit broken immo.
I think just 10-15 sec more build time for the terran could solve the problem. For now, my only guess is scout early, 8 pylon and perhaps try to wall your drone line a bit, to get a few extra seconds. Else i really dont know.
Hmm, I haven't encountered this fast of reapers before, but I guess while your core is building, get a zealot off. A zealot should be able to hold off a reaper for a good amount of time. Once the second reaper arrives, your stalker should arrive. So basically, if you scout a very fast rax with tech lab, and few SCVs mining, get a zealot up. If you can limit the reaper to just the zealot kill, you'll be at a significant advantage.
On April 03 2010 03:21 Chairman Ray wrote: Hmm, I haven't encountered this fast of reapers before, but I guess while your core is building, get a zealot off. A zealot should be able to hold off a reaper for a good amount of time. Once the second reaper arrives, your stalker should arrive. So basically, if you scout a very fast rax with tech lab, and few SCVs mining, get a zealot up. If you can limit the reaper to just the zealot kill, you'll be at a significant advantage.
How could you possibly figure a zealot will hold a reaper off?
The reaper will micro around in circles killing probes
I think hes basically saying force the reaper to micro against the zealot while you get a stalker out. I am not sure how the timing will work out though.
My solution to handling it has been walling off almost completely around my gases / mineral line and getting a zealot out to chase it just long enough for my first stalker to come out ( chrono boosted ) I try to guess where the reaper is going to hop in with the zeal positioning, at best i can 2 hits off on it.
While he tries to go for my probes, I just pull them all to the nearest mineral patch to my zeal chasing him. On good days I'll lose 1 - 2 probes.
marauders are op, more health and damage then anything in the gateway, with a 50% slow.
now here the thing, i feel its one of the few things keeping terran in the game, if you nerf it with out buffs in other areas the terran game is then broken.
but as for the reaper, if you get a zeal, its a free kill, a zealot will never touch a reaper, just like it will never touch a marauder. You can still kill probes with a zealot on your reaper, so its a moot point, and its just wasted minerals you need to save to get a stalker out.
Something needs to be changed, but blizzard doesn't seem to think things though, and we will have another broken unit.
the terran cutting workers isnt really as bad as the protoss cutting, as they have the mule to recoup some of the loss.
a tech lab nerf, even a slight gas cost increase might be enough to slow this down to get reapers out at the same time as a stalker first, i dont think that the reaper first harass into a bunker shouldnt be viable or too late, but it should have a downside to the rush, as it stands now, terran can then transition into a heavy marauder build with little to no downside, as the gas and tech lab is up.
a second option would be have an academy/merc haven, have this allow access to reapers with out a tech lab, costs minerals only and requires a rax to produce. you could take the dark shine approach and have it not house any upgrades, but in my opinion, it should house the marauders slow (150/100), reaper speed is moved to this building, along with another reaper upgrade i dont think spider-mines as thats a buff to bio and id like to see mech be viable, perhaps a range upgrade for reapers, or another upgrade.
On April 03 2010 02:56 Floophead_III wrote: I played with torch quite frequently, and he only opens up with this. I go 10 pylon/11 gate and chrono the stalker. It gets your stalker out not very much later than when the reaper shows up. I've experimented with 9 pylon 12/13 gate and I just found it too weak vs early aggression in any matchup. Protoss can be a worker behind for a little bit cause they'll catch up very very quickly with chrono. I've never had an issue with reapers. He can maybe kill 1-2 probes if he has fantastic micro, that's about it.
If you scout fast tech lab without a marine or are just unsure, save a chrono for that stalker, it makes a huge difference.
Yeah that's my take on it too. Particularly in game 1, you didn't have to cut tons of probes because of the "early" gate, but because you went 2 gate and had to therefore supply block yourself before the second pylon. If you hadn't you would've lost 2 probes but still had more workers than him (10 rax + orbital command... probably still means worse econ than your opponent).
I'd say that you might be a bit behind, but you now have one stalker to his 0 reapers, and if he sends more of those, great, you'll have even more of an army advantage. You'll get set back behind on econ, but I think it's the followup that you have to figure out, not the preventing of 2 probe deaths. (i.e. can you fast-expand off of 3ish stalkers after this? does chrono boosting your nexus exclusively get you back? is there a window to counter him since he threw away his 50mineral 50 gas reaper?) This may not be a strategy you can pre-emptively counter, but I don't those 2 games are enough of a "proof" that going fast reaper = autoloss for toss. I remember when in SC1 we had to pull freaking SCV's and even REPAIR our wall against dragoon fire, all while the protoss freaking fast expanded! =P
I play terran and got 1 reaper rushed, stopped the rush easily. It puts them behind by about 3 workers so they need to kill at least 3 to break even. The benefit is it sets them up for marauders which I eventually lost to from my own mistakes.
@mistermetal: nerfing tech labs for that would be dumb. They should just make it so you have to upgrade for them to climb cliffs and then buff them significantly because they are generally terrible the later the game goes.
Btw I suggest building your buildings alongside the cliffs to semi block that.
Ya had this problem as well. Really fast orbital command from the 10rax gives quick mule as well so the scv cutting isn't as bad as it seems. Really a build time increase for reapers to where an 7pylon will have a stalker barely on time is a good choice. Terran is cutting scvs so being able to defend with a 9pylon would be ridiculous.
I don't have the beta but isn't a solution to plant a pylon where his techlab should be and force him to lft or build a marine, and if eh lift block his landing sequence with your probe so he need to pull scv to chase your probe ?
On April 03 2010 03:59 zizzefex wrote: I play terran and got 1 reaper rushed, stopped the rush easily. It puts them behind by about 3 workers so they need to kill at least 3 to break even. The benefit is it sets them up for marauders which I eventually lost to from my own mistakes.
@mistermetal: nerfing tech labs for that would be dumb. They should just make it so you have to upgrade for them to climb cliffs and then buff them significantly because they are generally terrible the later the game goes.
Btw I suggest building your buildings alongside the cliffs to semi block that.
If you're terran it kind of defeats the purpose of you saying you held off the rush because you have the same units the reaper rusher has... my whole point is that protoss building times/tech times are way longer than terran's which creates an imbalance early game.
On April 03 2010 02:59 jackofclubs81 wrote: if u hold off the reaper ull have an advantage, they arent as imba as they used to be use a zeal to buy time for ur stalker
You don't need a zeal if you go 10/11 pylon/gate. That's the point. In the end you'll lose less probes (if any) and be in a BETTER economic shape than if you did 9/12 or 9/13. Your tech is also faster. I'm not saying 9/13 is bad, but I think it's got some risks.
you clearly didn't read the OP at all
I'm telling you what I know from experience. I have never had an issue with reaper openings off 10 rax with my build. The only map I could see it being a problem on is DO but that map blows anyways.
I did in fact read the entire OP. I know the math doesn't add up well, but I feel like you didn't correctly figure in 10/11 gate, because the math should line up with what I see ingame. If you want I'll be more than happy to work with you on it ingame.
Looking at game 1 again, the terran is really cutting a hell of alot of scv's to get this out.. he's cutting to make a barracks AND a refinery before resuming production (of one scv), and then starts his depot when he's supply blocked. And that buildorder seems optimized in terms of when you need the gas for the reaper etc. I don't even think terran comes out ahead if he kills 2 probes with this to be honest, you really need to play full games against this instead of just giving up cause your probes died I think =P. It's looking less and less like a great terran opening to me.
You guys are making this into WAY to big of a problem: Lemme break it down to you: To do a really fast reaper build a terran is sac'ing massive econ. Maybe 3-4 early SCVs don't get built to do the 10rax build. Therefore, to BREAK EVEN- the terran is going to need to kill 5-6 probes. Really whats winning the game for them is the psycological advantage of the harass, and that they get great scouting information for the first portion of the game. They know that keeping you in your base allows them to do what they please- in terms of tech, expo, mass econ, etc. As a T player, I don't do the super fast reaper build (anymore- i did it probably 10 games in a row vs toss and zerg when patch 7 came out) because of how bad it screws me economically. Its probably important to note that I'm a high ranked gold player (~10 right now), so I'm not the best player but I know my game.
The protoss are losing in this manner: I get my scout/harass on with my single reaper, keep them occupied and scout them techin to robo (to go fast observer, in almost every game) and either two or three gate. So i drop down a 2nd and 3rd rax and go mass marauder with no marines and 1-3 ghosts, have stimpack done when i get to their base, and roll them over with some solid focus fire. IF I WERE THE TOSS: A few zelots/stalkers/sentries + 2-3 cannons at the choke will stop my marauder rush cold, but noone does this. They all tech robo. My opinion for the toss to try (theorycrafting here ftw) is early forge (i know this is like super noob- but seriously top dudes you should just do this) and see where it leads you.
Another idea would be instead of keeping zelots close to ur main, put them where the Reapers jump up- Im sure somone has alerady said this, but its nto a bad idea. If your still having trouble- pull 3ish probes to chase the reaper and use good micro to get him cornered or force him to run away. For the record, the toss is SUPPOSED to take losses here, because he has such a big econ advantage (with chrono boosting probes and the terran just not building enough SCVs because of the early reapers), so if you can find away around the early reaper you will actually have caused significant damage to the terran's plans and put him way behind on econ.
Could someone watch the replay and compare probe counts and Income amounts at different points in the build, like when the reaper is produced, when it gets to the base, when the stalker comes out, etc?
I think the economic impact of hard-rushing Reapers is being downplayed here. The Terran has to cut SCVs and go to gas early. Additionally, once the first stalker is out, that's it, reaper harass is effectively over.
Lastly, if the Reaper isn't supposed to be a harassment threat early game, then it needs to be redesigned completely or removed because it's almost useless after the first few minutes of gameplay.
edit: and three of us just made the exact same post, awesome.
the key is not to think "how do i counter this so i don't lose any probes". because the way the build times are right now, this is not possible on small maps like metalopolis. end of story.
but you have to think "how do i counter this so i'm ahead in worker count/economy after i repel the early reaper harass".
as someone mentioned the "break even point" for terran is around 4 probes. so as long as you don't lose more than 4 probes you are actually even or ahead.
crucial points to achieve this: - pylon behind mineral line - worker micro - chrono boost on stalker (but only 1 use rest for probes)
8 pylon seems to work better than standard 9 pylon. but 8 pylon alone is not a huge hit. you can then build gate at 10 or 11 food. it really depends on how confident you are in your micro.
i guess bottom line is that this super early reaper sucks. because you are bound to lose probes. and it is a pain in the ass to get rid of well microed reapers. so it is definitly one of the rushes blizzard doesn't want (super easy to do, very hard to stop). but it's not a default loss!
I don't play protoss so I don't really know much about this situation, but is it impossible to at least delay the reapers damage using zealot/probe micro? do you lose too many probes? The terran is sacraficing some economy by getting an early refinery and possibly cutting probes right? How much damage can a reaper do in 30 seconds if you are actively forcing him to run from zealot/probe?
I feel that if it was super easy for protoss to get stalkers out before reapers arrived they wouldn't be much of a unit worth building. Reapers barely do anything against zerg as it is.
I have this problem before also made a post about it and it can be found here at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=117445. My solution other than stop playing protoss and switch to terran is to drop your gateway from the standard 12 to 11 (this should boost stalker arrival time by 10 second) and make a zealot while your gateway is warping in. As soon as the gateway warp in make a stalker and use that to fend off the reaper. Now I know that it is pretty much impossible to get the stalker out before the reaper hit. From my calculation even the fastest possible stalker without totally screwing up your econ would still give the reaper a good 20-30 seconds or so of wreaking your base. During this time, the best thing you can do is have your zealot chase the reaper around to minimize the damage till the stalker arrived.
The thing I see from your second video is that the lack of zealot, that one zealot could of effectively stop the scv from building those two bunker that seriously put the hurting on you. Try it with a boosted zealot as the core is warping in and you will see a major different.
Obviously being that zealot are slow as sin, it will be almost useless against a player good micro. However, what that zealot will do is drop your prob death count from something like 10 down to just 3 or 5 max. The important thing here is your zealot control. You want to zealot to pretty much make that reaper really work for every single prob kill that it does and keep it close to your prob line. Do not chase after the reaper so that it can just circle around and kill a probe or 2 by the time your zealot catch up. Micro it in a way where the most the reaper can get off is 1 or 2 shot before your zealot should be right on it ass again.
Those 30 second where the reaper is hammering your base will be the the longest 30 seconds of the game. However, if you can survive it will anything less than 6 prob death you should be at a pretty good economy advantage.
Also, you build your assimilator too early, by the time you were able to build your stalker, you have a whole 50 gas left over. The assimilator can be pushed back to 14 and you will still have enough gas for the stalker once core finished.
I just did a simple braindead comparison where I timed resources between a standard (10depot, 12rax) build versus the marauder/reaper (11rax, 11gas, 11depot) build.
Ends up there's really not that much of a difference. After 4 minutes: Standard build: 1875 resources, 408 collection rate, 19 workers Reaper build: 1850 resources, 378 collection rate, 15 workers
I did this on same start, same rally points for workers, on just fast speed (I'll try slowest next time if I can stomach it).
This analysis is oversimplistic because I was using MULEs, and stopping after 4 minutes was fairly arbitrary. I'll want to do some more testing on this. But let me offer a theory:
Going 11rax doesn't hurt you THAT badly. The reason is that MULEs in early game are a huge income source as opposed to your number of workers, so even though in one case you have 15 workers and the other case 19 , the MULE counts for like 5-6 SCVs so the discrepancy isn't so great. And because you're getting an earlier rax, you're getting your first MULE out earlier, which starts the income bonus early.
Without MULEs, it would be obvious that going 10 or 11rax is very punishing to economy, but MULEs kinda make up for this. I don't think this means that we should all prefer to go 11rax (since having the 4 extra SCVs is substantial in the long run), but it's not like this is comparable to a 9pool where if you don't kill a ton of probes it's GG for you.
On April 03 2010 05:07 shockwave.xpow wrote: I just did a simple braindead comparison where I timed resources between a standard (10depot, 12rax) build versus the marauder/reaper (11rax, 11gas, 11depot) build.
Ends up there's really not that much of a difference. After 4 minutes: Standard build: 1875 resources, 408 collection rate, 19 workers Reaper build: 1850 resources, 378 collection rate, 15 workers
Thing is, this difference only grows over time. After 4 minutes there is indeed not much of a difference, especially since 10 sup 12 rax builds finish the OC at about 3:30 IIRC. But even in your test you see that 10 sup 12 rax 15 OC has both more money and more importantly faster income than 10 rax 11 sup.
I ran tests on this up to 30 workers a while back. I don't have the numbers any more. Someone else in the forums posted a topic on 10 rax 11 sup vs 11 sup 12 rax if you want to search for it.
it seems these new reaper rush builds need somewhat of a re-balance .. anything that comes that early in the game shouldn't require such a drastic response as to change the entire match up.
except for epic scv rushes or something.
What the hell are you doing in this thread too??
You're complaining that you can't FAST EXPAND as zerg??? The protoss can't get A SINGLE COUNTER in time without suffering losses!
I can't believe I took your other thread seriously. I hope you have nightmares about reapers.
imo this is like 8 rax is TvZ sc1. t needs to do some damage or he will be behind, but its not an allin.chase him with 1 zeal and after he dies with 4-5 probes and micro that one that got 2 hits back to minerals and you will lose 1 zeal and maybe no probe but little miningtime. all in all you should be ahead.
it seems these new reaper rush builds need somewhat of a re-balance .. anything that comes that early in the game shouldn't require such a drastic response as to change the entire match up.
except for epic scv rushes or something.
What the hell are you doing in this thread too??
You're complaining that you can't FAST EXPAND as zerg??? The protoss can't get A SINGLE COUNTER in time without suffering losses!
I can't believe I took your other thread seriously. I hope you have nightmares about reapers.
This is just needless trolling. Reapers are a legitimate concern in high level games, especially now that they fell out of style for a while so people aren't always checking for them. Please refrain from posting comments like these again.
I thought the original alpha didn't allow reapers to be put in bunkers. I vote going back to that.
Yeah, I don't think most people here are realizing this is a bunker rush with the early harass of the Reaper. They're just reading it as Reaper harass.
On April 03 2010 02:54 AltCtrlDel wrote: The Zealots should have a burst sprint ability (With cool down timer, not lasting too long) from the beginning to balance it out in this rush scenario or any .. just enough to track down a Reaper and at least combat it .. (Then if you wanted to after then "research" the ability that it currently has in the game) Reaper could micro skillfully to try and battle 2 or 3 Zeal's off which would be fair. <-- My 2 cents.. =X
No, no they shouldn't. That would make zealots pretty imba early on too.
Tech Lab: Cost decreased from 50 Minerals and 50 Vespene Gas to 50 Minerals and 25 Vespene Gas.
i guess that didnt help at all.
i dont know how blizzard is gonna fix that issue, i think the good way to solve this is not buffing toss or nerfing terran because it would just fuck up TvZ or PvZ...
maybe reaper should come later in terran game but be a little more durable... thats my opinion but of course it take a lot of testing before taking a decision...
it seems these new reaper rush builds need somewhat of a re-balance .. anything that comes that early in the game shouldn't require such a drastic response as to change the entire match up.
except for epic scv rushes or something.
What the hell are you doing in this thread too??
You're complaining that you can't FAST EXPAND as zerg??? The protoss can't get A SINGLE COUNTER in time without suffering losses!
I can't believe I took your other thread seriously. I hope you have nightmares about reapers.
This is just needless trolling. Reapers are a legitimate concern in high level games, especially now that they fell out of style for a while so people aren't always checking for them. Please refrain from posting comments like these again.
I thought the original alpha didn't allow reapers to be put in bunkers. I vote going back to that.
doesnt make sense for me. a bunkerrush with reapers + sacrificing economy seems like a logical counter to a fe for me. so why you want to make this counter weaker, with allowing only marines/marauders only to get into the bunker?
if player A decides to go fe and player B decides to go a strategy against that even before scouting he should win or shouldnt he?
reapers are already pretty much useless, if you nerf it anymore, might as well just take them out of the game. They are pretty much just somewhat useful when the armies are very small.
I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese.
On April 03 2010 12:49 SirNeb wrote: reapers are already pretty much useless, if you nerf it anymore, might as well just take them out of the game. They are pretty much just somewhat useful when the armies are very small.
I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese.
You know what'd do that? Bringing back the old d8 charges. You could use them in so many cool ways. I was really looking forward to using them when I saw that first battle report way back when. Am I the only person on TL who misses those things?
On April 03 2010 12:49 SirNeb wrote: reapers are already pretty much useless, if you nerf it anymore, might as well just take them out of the game. They are pretty much just somewhat useful when the armies are very small.
I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese.
First off, I have to disagree with you there. Maybe it's only because we're 2v2ing but often when I 2v2 random and get Terran I will mass reaper for fun. You can run into someone's base and 2shot a nexus with not too many of them and there's literally absolutely nothing your opponent can do to stop it. Every time I mass reapers I convince myself of how OP they are vs buildings.
In any case, I don't think reapers need a nerf, I think the tech lab needs a nerf. They should put the cost back up to where it was and make it take like 10 seconds longer.
I mean this with respect but you are probably one of the most... annoying players that seem to be decent at this game. What surprises me for having some good understanding of the game is how much you cry about this build when you absolutely didn't even micro your probes what so ever. You would rather just type in chat about how imbalanced the game is. That early Reaper build is a good and risky opener that is able to be dealt with. You complain about how much the game is imbalanced but yet you play all the time. Reapers don't need a nerf, you just need to shut your mouth and micro.
p.s. I watched both Replays... lol it was sad. And by sad I mean the lack of effort to even try to stop it.
On April 03 2010 12:49 SirNeb wrote: reapers are already pretty much useless, if you nerf it anymore, might as well just take them out of the game. They are pretty much just somewhat useful when the armies are very small.
I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese.
First off, I have to disagree with you there. Maybe it's only because we're 2v2ing but often when I 2v2 random and get Terran I will mass reaper for fun. You can run into someone's base and 2shot a nexus with not too many of them and there's literally absolutely nothing your opponent can do to stop it. Every time I mass reapers I convince myself of how OP they are vs buildings.
In any case, I don't think reapers need a nerf, I think the tech lab needs a nerf. They should put the cost back up to where it was and make it take like 10 seconds longer.
It's only the barracks tech labs units that seem to pop out too fast. Maras and reapers just come too quickly and are a little too strong for their timing/place in the tech tree. I'd definitely like to see some sort of rebalance with the barracks tech lab units or tech tree. I don't think nerfing tech lab time helps that much though because it hurts tanks/thors/ravens/banshees/battlecruisers as well. (ok realistically just tanks/banshees). It might work out ok, but I already feel like my tanks pop out really slowly.
I experienced this build on me as a terran ... in a 2v2 ... in which I was also 8 pool ling rushed... yeah, I died. I wonder how much putting tech labs back to 50 gas would help in this situation. I'd test for the timings for myself, but I'm not at home for like another 4 hours. Off the top of my head I'm thinking it would maybe slow reaper timing down by like 10 seconds. This would reduce the window until the stalker comes out, giving you a more reasonable chance of pulling out even. If this is demonstrated as enough of a problem, blizzard may consider undoing the 25 gas change. This will also help a bit to delay those quick marauder timings that have been going around as well.
Edit: I don't think placing pylons in positions to block is a good idea either. If I were to do this build as a terran and saw this, assuming these pylons aren't by the gateway, I'd just kill the pylon powering the gateway. If that pylon goes down before the stalker gets in, it's over.
yea you gotta remember terran makes great sacrifices to go fast reapers... btw...what I find the hardest thing to fight against are mass marauders with few marines in them... terrans I usually play go 1 rax expo then mass marauders out of around 4 rax...it is so annoying for me there is nothing toss can do to fast expoing terran...terran makes like 1-2 reapers then expand and start massing marauders...if I leave my base to harrass him..his 2 reapers come in to my base and annoy me..and with 1-2 bunkers at his natural there is nothing gateway units can do anyways...I am really lost what unit composition is good for marauders...if terran waits until I have templars with storm, I can hold it off but usually the mass comes in when I have a few immortals and sentries, zealots, etc...
The quick and cheap Tech Lab, with the slow and expensive Reactor thing they've tried in Patch 7 is a complete nightmare for early game balance. I'd expect some more changes in Patch 8.
I think they forgot about this scenario when they made the last set of changes. The GW and Rax have a similar build time, so do the Stalker and Reaper, but the Protoss needing a Pylon to begin the GW, along with a Cyber Core taking 25s longer than a Tech Lab, and the lowered gas cost of the Tech Lab, its no surprise to me there's this absolutely massive window of opportunity to play havoc in your mineral line with a Reaper.
I have not read any of this thread, so sorry if this is a repeat or w/e.
I was watching garimto on http://tv.zeroboy.net/thsutleo and he went for 8 rax proxy on blistering sands (he put the barracks right below south tower, he spawned upper right. Went for 1 reaper to harass then into marauders to keep the pressure on. Toss player was sen and the reaper managed to kite a zealot to death taking no hits before the first stalker came out. Sen also lost a pylon to the reaper.
Sen eventually fended off the marauders with some sentries/zealots and just threw down 3 gates and no robo facility and ended the game through garimto's backdoor.
Didn't watch your stream, but probably you just saw the reapers and started raging about storm nerfs, etc. and forgot how to play
Imo you should buff the stats of reapers while bringing back the Merc Haven to make them slightly more midgame. Maybe give them another 10 HP and 1 armor or something (although I wouldn't mind nerfing their goddamn dmg to buildings). Complaints are from the reaper rush in TvZ btw which fucks your expo.
I think Marauder slowdown should be upgradable tbh. That or have it start with something like 20% slowdown and then upgrade to 50%.
Hey orb. I've actually played you before with success with this cheese, and I've failed against other protoss with the cheese so badly that I've stopped doing it.
The key is a chrono boosted zealot chasing the reaper. Yes, it can never catch up, yes, the reaper can still snipe off a probe or even some probes while the zealot is chasing it. However, with decent micro from the protoss, the losses are limited to 2-4 probes, and then your chrono boosted stalker comes out - and then the reaper dies. And if the terran has sent another reaper up, that reaper will also die.
So yes, losing the 2-4 probes may be completely unpreventable. The terran IS cutting a good chunk of SCVs though - ends up being about 3-5 SCVs behind due to the awkwardness of going:
10 Barracks 10 Refinery 11 Supply Depot
In addition, if the barracks was placed closer to the opponent's base, the barracks can be pushed and lost. Additionally, the 1-2 reapers that are sent will also be killed off by 1 stalker.
As is with all cheese, the key is to keep cool and hold it off. The opponent's upper hand is a mirage and is temporary - he sacrificed a lot of economy to gain the 30 second window timeframe of superiority.
It's worse when they go marauders rather than reaper. Your zealot will die to the marauder without ever getting a hit off before the stalker comes out and then your stalker will lose 1v1 vs the marauder as more come anyways.
Any more miracle advice?
Building a zealot doesn't help in the slightest when they do this with a proxy marauder rush and marauders build 10 seconds faster than reapers.
It's impossible to stop without Forge as far as I am concerned. So... open forge first and pray that they've cut too many SCVs to keep up. (or you get a lucky cannon rush in on their 14CC). Not everything has to have a solution in beta, this is one of those times where there are no legitimate solutions.
i don't know orb, i have to agree with the other people saying to get a fast zealot. i use 10/10/11 reapers extensively in 2v2s and 1v1s on certain maps and every single time my harass has failed it's because of a first zealot. by the time i finish killing the zealot the stalker is out, and if i choose to dodge the zealot while sniping probes the damage is limited by a lot. you can lose a few probes and still come out ahead economically. i play random (55-36 platinum) so i see both sides of this very often. my biggest gripe with pvt is still marauders over this.
edit: i think opening forge vs this if you know it's coming is already terrible, and going forge first in every pvt to prevent this is even worse!
Strangely no one is proposing simple solution: lower the build time of Cybernetics core by about 15 seconds. This will help with both Reaper and Marauder issue.
When I saw this replay I thought of this thread straight away since it's the best example of the reaper rush that I've seen so far. I know from the tourneys they've been having over there that Furion is a very good Protoss player and he takes all the right steps of chrono'ing a zealot, pulling probes to help stop the bunker being built and then getting stalkers to properly deal with the reapers.
As a mac user, I've only gotten to play beta a couple of times with friend's PCs so I'm sure I have much less experience with the game than many people commenting here.
That said, I'd suggest experimenting with 2 zealots out of your first gateway to counter fast reaper. The reasoning behind this is the fast reapers described in OP are sent to your base one at a time and with good micro, two zealots should be able to keep a reaper away from the probe line. Additionally, not rushing to stalker allows you to keep chrono on your nexus to achieve optimal probe production and help mitigate any probe loss from reapers that get through your zealot defense. The timing works out such that you can get your 2nd zealot out at 156 s after your first pylon.
An obvious question that comes to mind is whether you put yourself in a position to get your first stalker out quickly enough after two zealots in case terran commits to a larger number of reapers. I'll be happy to test this as soon as mac beta comes out (fingers crossed for release sometime in April -> http://www.sc2bunker.com/2010/sc2-mac-beta-in-april/)
On April 05 2010 19:07 -orb- wrote: It's worse when they go marauders rather than reaper. Your zealot will die to the marauder without ever getting a hit off before the stalker comes out and then your stalker will lose 1v1 vs the marauder as more come anyways.
Any more miracle advice?
Building a zealot doesn't help in the slightest when they do this with a proxy marauder rush and marauders build 10 seconds faster than reapers.
WHOA and i thought we were just bitchin' about how op reapers were
Dude stop crying: Get a forge if your that bad at sc2, otherwise l2micro probes and deal with one of the few advatages terrans have over you. Then use ur OP immortals / stalker / sentry / zelot/ templar and roll them over.
On April 03 2010 02:49 agorist wrote: I think the only real solution is to expect to lose a few probes -- get a zealot out that can keep pressure on the reaper while you wait for your stalker. You'll make up for the lost probes with chronoboost (as you're already way ahead of terran's worker count).
As you said, fast forge is fail and so is super fast stalker rush (to defend). That doesn't leave many options. You could try blocking some of the common reaper running routes with pylons too -- behind your mins, etc.
The problem is sir, that you won't be ahead of T's worker count. Terran can do a completely normal build aside from the fact that he may have proxy rax'd, not cutting workers at all, and managing to take out 4 or five of your probes by the time your first stalker is out. Then, by the time you get enough to push him, he'll straight up have a bigger ball than you and roll you over, or he could just keep going reaper for a while and you'll have no probes whatsoever.
I saw even orb play T and go mass reaper. It's so fast and so dangerous that P can't even leave his base, cause a dozen reapers will do so much damage. Forget probe losses, you'll lose your nexus and a gateway or two before your stalkers get back in time.
I think you really just have to absorb the losses and outmacro them. Realize that they'll be a good 3 or so peons behind you since that reaper probably caused them to cut SCV's for a bit.
Absorb the loss, don't let it dictate what you do next. That's the real strength in early reaper harrass- it causes a lot of toss to go stalker-heavy (marauder pwnage) or zealot heavy (hellion pwnage) and THAT is what loses the game in reality.
don't overreact, sacrifice the drone or two, follow up wisely.
yea reapers are insane against buildings and workers, they are completly worthless against anything else when you factor in their cost and build/train time. Like what is the point if an harassing unit? to harass maybe ... if terran wants the reaper there before stalkers he needs the ultrafast rush to reapers, which will hurt his economy severerly, delaying workers from being built when supplydepot comes after both baracks and refinary, and taking 3 of the few scvs you have left to mine gas.
the protoss should expect to lose a few probes to this, and if he doesnt loose a lot of them he will many times come out ahead economywise. P can also chronoboost probes so he replenish his workers faster.
I'd actually be happy if they reworked the reaper somehow, I barely get to use them much now as they are not very good aside from this type of rushing, they cost 50 gas!which is murder at tier1 for a unit that doesnt do squat against fighting units.
You've got to think about the fast reaper the same way you would think about a very early pool build in brood war. The fact is it's going to get in to your base before you have anything to easily deflect it. The trick is to minimize probe losses. If he gets one or two and then you kill or deflect the reaper, you're fine. If you're losing 5-6 probes every time, you're doing something wrong.
isn't the biggest issue here that the terran are able to sustain a decent econ off this rush? the problem with the orbital command/mule mechanic is that while the other races are forced to choose early units vs early econ a fast rax build allows for both quick harass AND quick mules.
On April 06 2010 01:22 BroOd wrote: You've got to think about the fast reaper the same way you would think about a very early pool build in brood war. The fact is it's going to get in to your base before you have anything to easily deflect it. The trick is to minimize probe losses. If he gets one or two and then you kill or deflect the reaper, you're fine. If you're losing 5-6 probes every time, you're doing something wrong.
My thought exactly. Cycle workers to draw his reaper into the other mad workers, and just try to stall for the first stalker, which entirely shuts it down. I'm torn on the early zealot.
On April 05 2010 23:00 Bane_ wrote: When I saw this replay I thought of this thread straight away since it's the best example of the reaper rush that I've seen so far. I know from the tourneys they've been having over there that Furion is a very good Protoss player and he takes all the right steps of chrono'ing a zealot, pulling probes to help stop the bunker being built and then getting stalkers to properly deal with the reapers.
On April 05 2010 23:00 Bane_ wrote: When I saw this replay I thought of this thread straight away since it's the best example of the reaper rush that I've seen so far. I know from the tourneys they've been having over there that Furion is a very good Protoss player and he takes all the right steps of chrono'ing a zealot, pulling probes to help stop the bunker being built and then getting stalkers to properly deal with the reapers.
I would assume that is not the real FlaSh, but who is Furion playing against? (i.e. a nick from a previous game, like SC1, War3, etc) - it's a very good reaper rush
Starting to see this in north american server more and more. Terran are bored of opening fast marauder and realised they can get an EVEN BETTER head-start with a fast reaper, plus it's that much more humiliating.
Lol@people suggesting "zealot pressure." 1. The reaper shows up 2. The reaper begins to orbit your nexus and mineral line 3. SCV builds a bunker just out of sight (or in-sight to distract a stalker that pops) 4. Another reaper shows up or a marauder shows up
That's the way it goes with a fast zealot to stalker. No way around it, you will at-best loose 2-3 probes and have to kill a bunker with a reaper in it (leaves you zealot and stalker with low hp). More likely you will have lost a few probes, your zealot, and any buildings in range of the bunker that goes up.
Pretty nasty stuff. That replay is a good example.
Reapers are in the wrong position in the tech tree. They come out very early, jump past chokes and render melee units useless with speed + range. Such a unit simply should not be buildable so early in the game. They are already ridiculously weak - I have not seen any use of reapers whatsoever beyond the 4-minute cheese. However, because of the above advantages they can still feel overpowering.
IMO, Reapers would be much better with something like this: - Requires engineering bay - Nitro Packs must be researched at techlab BEFORE you can build any. - 55 HP - Can use stimpack
This would remove the current cheese but make them FAR stronger in the midgame due to stim.
On April 06 2010 01:22 BroOd wrote: You've got to think about the fast reaper the same way you would think about a very early pool build in brood war. The fact is it's going to get in to your base before you have anything to easily deflect it. The trick is to minimize probe losses. If he gets one or two and then you kill or deflect the reaper, you're fine. If you're losing 5-6 probes every time, you're doing something wrong.
plz explain how to defend a reaper with nothing but probes? orb just showed that fast zlot does absolutely NOTHING. reaper kills it in like 8 seconds then starts ravaging probe line. its the same as vulture vs drones, its not possible to win if they have any semblence of micro.
Although not representative at all, I've actually managed to stop this twice when i scouted with my pylon probe and when i found them on first try. I just mess with their barracks and i don't let them build a psy lab either with pylon/cancel or just with the probe. If they chase the probe with scv they screw themselves up even more. While I was doing this one of the terrans wrote "I'm gonna nuke you for this". Lol. He died.
But yeah, I, too, especially on Metalopolis, feel this is pretty overpowered for a rush that's not 6 pool and that actually leaves decent options for midgame. I mean it's an all-in as far as the toss is concerned but without being an all in for the T. So that sucks.
the main thing that makes this imbalanced is not the reaper, its mules
imagine if chrono boost AND comsat stations were removed from the game and then see this strategy... ok find remove chrono boost and mules but keep comsat scan, i dont care, im looking mostly at economy balance here
when the terran cuts probes and doesnt build a depot, he still gets that fast comsat which gives about 6 SCV's once its finished. the mule is 30 per mine and a scv is 5. wow.
so the terran cuts about 3-4 scv's, but he gets a very fast mule
the protoss will always lose 4-5 probes even with a chrono boosted zealot and chrono boosted stalker
so in the end its a terran advantage of 2workers plus the toss spends 250 minerals and time replacing his probes.
if comst and chrono boost were removed, the reaper would still come as fast and the zealot would come out a bit earlier and stalker too but at least the terran wouldnt have his 6 scv's. from the mule. in that scenario the terran would cut 4 scv's and the toss loses 4 probes so its about even
i just personally feel like mule is the best macro mechanic. 4 comsats in the late game, 1 lifts and lands in a yellow mineral location and drops 9 mules. in a minute those 9 mules will give you about 2500 minerals off the yellow crystals which easily pays the 550 mineral cost of the comsat. if the comsat dies who cares you just got 1950 min or 49 marines ... damn
back to reapers. the fix here is to reduce the build time of cyber core by 30 seconds imo, and increase gateway robo build time by 20 seconds each. i also think zealots could use a speedboost on psi or something "just say omg the zealots with their honor for toss omg they get speedboosted in the presence of pylons omg omg" but mostly the improved buildtimes of cyber core would fix the problem
I reckon, Reapers need engineering bay, but reapers had their build time nerfed (for those who do not remember) because of this very problem. If EB is required the build time should to be changed back to the original build time, making them viable in combat (fast producing infantry). They aren't OPed in combat so that would be a good solution. Plus that will be good transition for reapers in mid game.
So I downloaded the replay to watch it before commenting, but Battle.net is down and I can't even watch replays right now. Seriously, this just isn't acceptable.
Here's an idea, a little out of the box guess. If the problem is waiting for the stalker gets you behind, couldn't you chrono your 1st zealot and counter attack? If he's walled he will have to use scv's and resources to repair and probably will call back the reapers buying you time for 1st stalker. It may require some testing but this could put the terran way behind if he already cut to get the fast reapers. The zeolot will obviously get killed, but it may be enough to neutralize this rush and give you a big economic advantage early.
You can block the tech lab but if he proxies the rax and you don't find it in time its still going to do a lot of damage.
On 2 player maps this seems like the most optimal build in TvP. It applies pressure on the toss and forces him to get an early stalker and use his chrono on the gateway. The thing is that this attack also will also make early rushes with maurds even more deadly due to econ damage you suffer. Even if terran is a bit behind on scvs early on they make it up with their macro mechanic.
The terran loses as much if not more in economy as the protoss. The bunker varient can be stopped with probes and the first zealot killing the scv that constructs it. You will lose 3 probes at least to 10 rax and 5 at least to 8 rax but the terran 'loses' more scv's by not building them that early. Perhaps orbital command is slightly too good as it's way better then chrono boost but the strat itself is not that imbalanced. The reaper however is a ugly design, it's only role is early on as it's too fragile lategame to be of any use. If it had a niche use against some units in big battle's then it could at least be a interesting unit. For example the batrider in wc3, it's a harass unit but also servers in battle by suiciding on cheap flyers (not really effective on higher hp flyers), the reaper should have some role in big battles as well. Perhaps a 'suicide attack' like the baneling but instead of rolling in and doing area of effect damage it could make a suicide jump with the jetpack doing high damage against a single unit so it could take out siege tanks for example.
Are you guys kidding? Reaper is not a problem at all. Massive whine thread, when every good protoss gets their stalker out and stops it with 1 probe loss, if not two, and they're still sort of ahead of T half the time lmao.
and for gods sake, when you make the zealot don't simply chase the reaper with it, use 1-3 probes with the zealot to try to trap it and kill it, then ur stalker comes out chrono boosted and you're fine.
On April 05 2010 19:44 goszar wrote: Strangely no one is proposing simple solution: lower the build time of Cybernetics core by about 15 seconds. This will help with both Reaper and Marauder issue.
I love this. It's so simple, gdamn. Everyone's talking about "build zealot first" "no go cannon" "no those don't work." If the cyber core build time reduces by that amount, it still gives a terran ~15s to do his harass (making this strategy still somewhat possible) and lets the protoss get his counter unit in earlier. wow. I feel so bad for not having considered this earlier.
Lowering the Cybernetics Core build time by 15 seconds is not a simple fix as the effects on any game that doesn't involve reaper rushing would have to be considered as well.
Lowering cybern. core would be a awful solution, it would entirely speed teching by 15 secs in every matchup, ie 15 secs faster immortal, 15 secs faster void rays etc. It would take out a teching requirement so intrinsic to protoss, way too big a change in my opinion. If this build is problematic at all, which I doubt it is, the reaper would just have to be adjusted imo. It's just a ugly design at the moment.
On April 07 2010 01:59 avilo wrote: Are you guys kidding? Reaper is not a problem at all. Massive whine thread, when every good protoss gets their stalker out and stops it with 1 probe loss, if not two, and they're still sort of ahead of T half the time lmao.
and for gods sake, when you make the zealot don't simply chase the reaper with it, use 1-3 probes with the zealot to try to trap it and kill it, then ur stalker comes out chrono boosted and you're fine.
You act like 1: Getting a full surround on a reaper does anything because they won't just push the probes out of the way
and 2: like the reaper won't just snipe these probes as he's running.
I've mathematically proven it's impossible to hold off, so please go troll elsewhere, thanks.
On April 07 2010 01:59 avilo wrote: Are you guys kidding? Reaper is not a problem at all. Massive whine thread, when every good protoss gets their stalker out and stops it with 1 probe loss, if not two, and they're still sort of ahead of T half the time lmao.
and for gods sake, when you make the zealot don't simply chase the reaper with it, use 1-3 probes with the zealot to try to trap it and kill it, then ur stalker comes out chrono boosted and you're fine.
You act like 1: Getting a full surround on a reaper does anything because they won't just push the probes out of the way
and 2: like the reaper won't just snipe these probes as he's running.
I've mathematically proven it's impossible to hold off, so please go troll elsewhere, thanks.
Orb. Hate to say it, but it's fine. I just checked it myself just to see if I was mistaken, and I'm not.
Always open 10 pylon (9 chrono)/11 gate/13 gas/16 core/17 pylon and save a chrono for your stalker.
If he opens 10/10/11 reaper rush your core finishes as his reaper finishes. On LT on adjacent positions my stalker finished as his reaper entered my base. I lost I think 1 probe.
If he opens a true cheese, 8 rax 8 ref your stalker is going to be about 10 seconds late. Just threaten his reaper with probes if he goes for your pylon, and then once your stalker is out you're fine.
If he's opening with a marauder you can just make a zealot and follow up with a sentry and you're fine.
If you really don't believe me I'll show you in person. I'm on right now.
On April 07 2010 08:59 ImBa_JaCkAsS wrote: I ain't toss player but I think getting one zealot to get off some hits and stalker is better than no zealot rushing for stalker
Orb, the only thing that you've mathematically proven is that US terrans apparently are magically better than the EU ones, as EU Terrans somehow can't pull this build off properly - because it never damaged me / put me behind yet - at all. Or maybe my standard build simply counters this with some micro.
Take your pick!
Proxy rax marauder is another thing, I'll give you that (but we aren't talking about marauders here, are we?).
On April 07 2010 01:59 avilo wrote: Are you guys kidding? Reaper is not a problem at all. Massive whine thread, when every good protoss gets their stalker out and stops it with 1 probe loss, if not two, and they're still sort of ahead of T half the time lmao.
and for gods sake, when you make the zealot don't simply chase the reaper with it, use 1-3 probes with the zealot to try to trap it and kill it, then ur stalker comes out chrono boosted and you're fine.
You act like 1: Getting a full surround on a reaper does anything because they won't just push the probes out of the way
and 2: like the reaper won't just snipe these probes as he's running.
I've mathematically proven it's impossible to hold off, so please go troll elsewhere, thanks.
Orb. Hate to say it, but it's fine. I just checked it myself just to see if I was mistaken, and I'm not.
Always open 10 pylon (9 chrono)/11 gate/13 gas/16 core/17 pylon and save a chrono for your stalker.
If he opens 10/10/11 reaper rush your core finishes as his reaper finishes. On LT on adjacent positions my stalker finished as his reaper entered my base. I lost I think 1 probe.
If he opens a true cheese, 8 rax 8 ref your stalker is going to be about 10 seconds late. Just threaten his reaper with probes if he goes for your pylon, and then once your stalker is out you're fine.
If he's opening with a marauder you can just make a zealot and follow up with a sentry and you're fine.
If you really don't believe me I'll show you in person. I'm on right now.
Uhhh.. this doesn't make sense to me. How would you know if he's going reaper vs. marauder and therefore be able to get stalker or zealot/sentry before seeing the unit pop up? By the time you see it, you must have already committed to one or the other?
On April 07 2010 09:40 Naib wrote: Orb, the only thing that you've mathematically proven is that US terrans apparently are magically better than the EU ones, as EU Terrans somehow can't pull this build off properly - because it never damaged me / put me behind yet - at all. Or maybe my standard build simply counters this with some micro.
Take your pick!
Proxy rax marauder is another thing, I'll give you that (but we aren't talking about marauders here, are we?).
So what is "your build" then? If it's opening zeal first, I'm pretty sure its been said that it might work to stall for stalker, but you still will probably lose probes if terran can micro AND you're in big trouble vs aggressive marauder openings.
Orb. Hate to say it, but it's fine. I just checked it myself just to see if I was mistaken, and I'm not.
Always open 10 pylon (9 chrono)/11 gate/13 gas/16 core/17 pylon and save a chrono for your stalker.
If he opens 10/10/11 reaper rush your core finishes as his reaper finishes. On LT on adjacent positions my stalker finished as his reaper entered my base. I lost I think 1 probe.
If he opens a true cheese, 8 rax 8 ref your stalker is going to be about 10 seconds late. Just threaten his reaper with probes if he goes for your pylon, and then once your stalker is out you're fine.
If he's opening with a marauder you can just make a zealot and follow up with a sentry and you're fine.
If you really don't believe me I'll show you in person. I'm on right now.
Uhhh.. this doesn't make sense to me. How would you know if he's going reaper vs. marauder and therefore be able to get stalker or zealot/sentry before seeing the unit pop up? By the time you see it, you must have already committed to one or the other?
There's this nifty unit called the probe. You send it out to see what the other player is doing. If he's doing a rax first build he won't make a marine to kill your probe off, so you can happily park it and wait for whatever comes out. If he does make a marine, you can make whatever you want cause he's already 25 seconds late.
i think you have to scout on 8, gate on 12 and make a zealot first as your standard build when you see a fast reactor. chrono both the zealot and the stalker in full. and you force the reaper to try and micro the zealot (which will be lost) but you should have your stalker out by about the time the zealot is ready to die with at most 1 or 2 probe losses. losing a zealot and 2 probes (and i guess another probe due to not chrono'ing your nexus) is probably about a break even proposition considering what he had to sacrifice in scvs/mule to get a reaper this fast
Orb. Hate to say it, but it's fine. I just checked it myself just to see if I was mistaken, and I'm not.
Always open 10 pylon (9 chrono)/11 gate/13 gas/16 core/17 pylon and save a chrono for your stalker.
If he opens 10/10/11 reaper rush your core finishes as his reaper finishes. On LT on adjacent positions my stalker finished as his reaper entered my base. I lost I think 1 probe.
If he opens a true cheese, 8 rax 8 ref your stalker is going to be about 10 seconds late. Just threaten his reaper with probes if he goes for your pylon, and then once your stalker is out you're fine.
If he's opening with a marauder you can just make a zealot and follow up with a sentry and you're fine.
If you really don't believe me I'll show you in person. I'm on right now.
Uhhh.. this doesn't make sense to me. How would you know if he's going reaper vs. marauder and therefore be able to get stalker or zealot/sentry before seeing the unit pop up? By the time you see it, you must have already committed to one or the other?
There's this nifty unit called the probe. You send it out to see what the other player is doing. If he's doing a rax first build he won't make a marine to kill your probe off, so you can happily park it and wait for whatever comes out. If he does make a marine, you can make whatever you want cause he's already 25 seconds late.
and if he proxied it then how will you know? There is a good chance you won't find the proxy every time. More often than not you won't find it.
If he's proxying you'll know he's either going reaper or mara because he'll have gas and honestly it comes down to scouting and guesswork. Proxying is pretty allin cheese. I don't think Orb is talking about vs proxying players anyways.
There are always going to be cheeses that are difficult to stop 100% of the time. However, more often than not you should be fine stalker first. Remember, before stim, stalkers are even to marauders, and with probes involved, will beat marauders easily.
this might be a side note, but i find it funny how by "micro" everyone just meant selecting the 1 zealot and 3 probes and right click on that reaper while you chrono that stalker...
lol at "I've mathematically proven it's impossible to hold off, so please go troll elsewhere, thanks." ROFL orb.
On April 07 2010 12:43 BigBalls wrote: i think you have to scout on 8, gate on 12 and make a zealot first as your standard build when you see a fast reactor. chrono both the zealot and the stalker in full. and you force the reaper to try and micro the zealot (which will be lost) but you should have your stalker out by about the time the zealot is ready to die with at most 1 or 2 probe losses. losing a zealot and 2 probes (and i guess another probe due to not chrono'ing your nexus) is probably about a break even proposition considering what he had to sacrifice in scvs/mule to get a reaper this fast
On April 07 2010 01:59 avilo wrote: Are you guys kidding? Reaper is not a problem at all. Massive whine thread, when every good protoss gets their stalker out and stops it with 1 probe loss, if not two, and they're still sort of ahead of T half the time lmao.
and for gods sake, when you make the zealot don't simply chase the reaper with it, use 1-3 probes with the zealot to try to trap it and kill it, then ur stalker comes out chrono boosted and you're fine.
You act like 1: Getting a full surround on a reaper does anything because they won't just push the probes out of the way
and 2: like the reaper won't just snipe these probes as he's running.
I've mathematically proven it's impossible to hold off, so please go troll elsewhere, thanks.
Orb. Hate to say it, but it's fine. I just checked it myself just to see if I was mistaken, and I'm not.
Always open 10 pylon (9 chrono)/11 gate/13 gas/16 core/17 pylon and save a chrono for your stalker.
If he opens 10/10/11 reaper rush your core finishes as his reaper finishes. On LT on adjacent positions my stalker finished as his reaper entered my base. I lost I think 1 probe.
If he opens a true cheese, 8 rax 8 ref your stalker is going to be about 10 seconds late. Just threaten his reaper with probes if he goes for your pylon, and then once your stalker is out you're fine.
If he's opening with a marauder you can just make a zealot and follow up with a sentry and you're fine.
If you really don't believe me I'll show you in person. I'm on right now.
Agreed with floophead. Orb, you got me excited about trying reaper openings again when I saw this thread, but was very disappointed to find out that 9 rax 9 gas 11 depot got me a reaper to his base a second or two before his stalker popped out -_- wonderful. Reaper openings blow TvP.
On April 07 2010 01:59 avilo wrote: Are you guys kidding? Reaper is not a problem at all. Massive whine thread, when every good protoss gets their stalker out and stops it with 1 probe loss, if not two, and they're still sort of ahead of T half the time lmao.
and for gods sake, when you make the zealot don't simply chase the reaper with it, use 1-3 probes with the zealot to try to trap it and kill it, then ur stalker comes out chrono boosted and you're fine.
You act like 1: Getting a full surround on a reaper does anything because they won't just push the probes out of the way
and 2: like the reaper won't just snipe these probes as he's running.
I've mathematically proven it's impossible to hold off, so please go troll elsewhere, thanks.
Orb. Hate to say it, but it's fine. I just checked it myself just to see if I was mistaken, and I'm not.
Always open 10 pylon (9 chrono)/11 gate/13 gas/16 core/17 pylon and save a chrono for your stalker.
If he opens 10/10/11 reaper rush your core finishes as his reaper finishes. On LT on adjacent positions my stalker finished as his reaper entered my base. I lost I think 1 probe.
If he opens a true cheese, 8 rax 8 ref your stalker is going to be about 10 seconds late. Just threaten his reaper with probes if he goes for your pylon, and then once your stalker is out you're fine.
If he's opening with a marauder you can just make a zealot and follow up with a sentry and you're fine.
If you really don't believe me I'll show you in person. I'm on right now.
Agreed with floophead. Orb, you got me excited about trying reaper openings again when I saw this thread, but was very disappointed to find out that 9 rax 9 gas 11 depot got me a reaper to his base a second or two before his stalker popped out -_- wonderful. Reaper openings blow TvP.
yeh, the reaper openings are not so sexy or imba as this thread tries to make em out to be.
People seem to be making it out as if it's a freewin, when really most of the time it's all-inish (8 rax especially) and they can stop a 10rax no prob with losing at most 1-2 probes and P economy is still almost ahead of T, except for a mule.
There's this nifty unit called the probe. You send it out to see what the other player is doing. If he's doing a rax first build he won't make a marine to kill your probe off, so you can happily park it and wait for whatever comes out. If he does make a marine, you can make whatever you want cause he's already 25 seconds late.
Does that timing work? You can wait until you see a marauder pop out before you build your zealot AND still get your sentry after the zealot out on time to fight the marauder? That doesn't sound right, but I'll test it tomorrow.
If you 11 gate/cyber core immediately, I'm fairly sure if they proxy 8 barrack outside your base on blistering sands the reaper will get a ton of kills.
If they don't proxy, it's fairly easy to hold off reaper with probes + zealot until stalker, you might lose 1-2 probes but u end up with the advantage.
I haven't tried defending it vs proxy rax, but from the newest Phobos vs Demuslim game it looks a little imbalanced. Terran should have a larger disadvantage economically, but the mule is ridiculous.
I say decrease gateway build time by 5 seconds, cybernetics build time by 5 seconds. Good micro can take care of the rest.
This [H] thread seems less about getting help and more whining about a nonexistent class imbalance.
Numerous people have already told you how to counter this strat. Zealot + probe surround with a chrono boosted stalker. At most you should lose 2 probes, which is far less than what the T gave up to rush the reaper.
Tell me exactly how to fight off 2 Reapers in your base in 2v2 when you're against two Terrans as Protoss please. This strat works 100% of the time, there is no protoss counter, you simply suck it up and deal with your probe losses. That is dumb.
There's a post now on playxp showing a screenshot of a build that's even faster than the replay I posted. The first and second reaper are started at 2:15 and 2:59 which means they will pop out at 2:55 and 3:39 respectively. Looking through my games I see I generally don't even start my cybercore until about the 2:55-3:05 mark and since it takes another 78 seconds or so even if you chrono the stalker the whole time...that's an awful long time window during which they can attack and have you stuck with units that simply aren't meant to take on reapers. Is that really as easy to defend as a lot of you are trying to make out?
Realistically you can get your Cyber core (completed) @ 3:45ish at earliest unless you stop building probes at some point. And that would be a very bad thing as T economy is better than P's (due to mules).
If you see stalkers before the 4:00 mark, the P has gimped themselves on probes and their economy is extremely weak.
Good post. I was wondering about this myself. I got 10 rax'ed reapered and focused on getting the stalker out ASAP and it was still a little late. however i did go forge+cannon after building core and it held off, but then he expanded....and gg 10 mins later
GOD i love doing this vs toss. Right now stall him with your zeal till stalker comes out. And chrono to speed up stalker. It's kinda crapy, i know, but it's the best we can do for now unless blizz changes it. The best is proxy barracks reaper harrass. I've raped toss more than once with that build Doesn't work against zerg tho.. lol PS. I havn't explored cannons yet..?
I don't even play Toss fulltime and I don't struggle with this. I lost to this once and I haven't since cuz' I learned and since then it's been fine.
Like many people mentioned, you can easily have 1 zealot ready to chase him around, and your stalker pops out a few seconds later. Don't see what the problem is. Just be smart with your Stalker and don't get tricked by the reaper moving awhile while the second reaper hops to your mineral line.
Losing one or two probes is normal, and it doesen't really matter considering his eco is also slightly weaker due to his earlier rax, earlier gas etc.
I used to think this was easy, but yesterday I finally played a game where the douche did the super fast (8rax or sooner) reaper rush.. and it was that map where it was 4 corners with the higher cliffs outside of your base, so not only did his first reaper get there way before my first stalker and killed 2-3 probes, but then his reapers were on high cliffs in range of one of my pylons, so he was able to kill that..
He continued with reapers, got about 10 of them, which sure cant compete with my army 1v1, but since this map has high cliffs instead of low cliffs, he just stayed above there (the part blocked by 2 rock barriers) and if I tried to go counter his expo, he just jumped in to my base and took out what he could.. I was stuck in my base.
Then, I got 2 cannons up which would stop the harass and then I went to deal damage to him, but by that time he had mass marauders and of course since marauders are still gay, my army was dead in seconds (with his reapers coming in behind)..
I really dont think theres anything a protoss could do on this map.. thankfully its only one map, every other map reapers dont have that kind of mobility/cliffs to dominate so much. But still really lame.
On April 10 2010 01:58 Skyze wrote: I used to think this was easy, but yesterday I finally played a game where the douche did the super fast (8rax or sooner) reaper rush.. and it was that map where it was 4 corners with the higher cliffs outside of your base, so not only did his first reaper get there way before my first stalker and killed 2-3 probes, but then his reapers were on high cliffs in range of one of my pylons, so he was able to kill that..
He continued with reapers, got about 10 of them, which sure cant compete with my army 1v1, but since this map has high cliffs instead of low cliffs, he just stayed above there (the part blocked by 2 rock barriers) and if I tried to go counter his expo, he just jumped in to my base and took out what he could.. I was stuck in my base.
Then, I got 2 cannons up which would stop the harass and then I went to deal damage to him, but by that time he had mass marauders and of course since marauders are still gay, my army was dead in seconds (with his reapers coming in behind)..
I really dont think theres anything a protoss could do on this map.. thankfully its only one map, every other map reapers dont have that kind of mobility/cliffs to dominate so much. But still really lame.
just for that map then (kulas i'm guessing) go with a quick robo for an OBSERVER right after you build stalkers and defend the initial reaper. problem solved!
On April 10 2010 01:58 Skyze wrote: I used to think this was easy, but yesterday I finally played a game where the douche did the super fast (8rax or sooner) reaper rush.. and it was that map where it was 4 corners with the higher cliffs outside of your base, so not only did his first reaper get there way before my first stalker and killed 2-3 probes, but then his reapers were on high cliffs in range of one of my pylons, so he was able to kill that..
He continued with reapers, got about 10 of them, which sure cant compete with my army 1v1, but since this map has high cliffs instead of low cliffs, he just stayed above there (the part blocked by 2 rock barriers) and if I tried to go counter his expo, he just jumped in to my base and took out what he could.. I was stuck in my base.
Then, I got 2 cannons up which would stop the harass and then I went to deal damage to him, but by that time he had mass marauders and of course since marauders are still gay, my army was dead in seconds (with his reapers coming in behind)..
I really dont think theres anything a protoss could do on this map.. thankfully its only one map, every other map reapers dont have that kind of mobility/cliffs to dominate so much. But still really lame.
just for that map then (kulas i'm guessing) go with a quick robo for an OBSERVER right after you build stalkers and defend the initial reaper. problem solved!
Or how about killing the rocks? I've heared about the possibility to split your army since Stalkers rape Reapers... This thread is just useless, even if you lose 2-3 probes to a 8/9 Rax/Reaper you are still ahead economicly. I'm experimenting with reaper(+boost) against zeals in fights but they are so gas-heavy that you cant get some EMP's or Mech out too (early).
When I proxy 10 rax reaper, Protoss who went 10 gate , core before first zealot ( a safe and economical opening ) have a zealot out as the reaper arrives, and they chase, while building a stalker with boost. Stalkers are RIDICULOUSLY faster than reapers, so once it's out you have to leave the base or lose the reaper. I don't see how this is a problem for anyone at all.
On April 11 2010 03:04 Louder wrote: When I proxy 10 rax reaper, Protoss who went 10 gate , core before first zealot ( a safe and economical opening ) have a zealot out as the reaper arrives, and they chase, while building a stalker with boost. Stalkers are RIDICULOUSLY faster than reapers, so once it's out you have to leave the base or lose the reaper. I don't see how this is a problem for anyone at all.
If you 10gate you're way behind economically.
Then if your opponent didn't happen to proxy reapers and you 10 gated you're even farther behind, and it's impossible to scout it early enough to decide whether to 10gate or not.
On April 03 2010 12:49 SirNeb wrote: reapers are already pretty much useless, if you nerf it anymore, might as well just take them out of the game. They are pretty much just somewhat useful when the armies are very small.
I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese.
First off, I have to disagree with you there. Maybe it's only because we're 2v2ing but often when I 2v2 random and get Terran I will mass reaper for fun. You can run into someone's base and 2shot a nexus with not too many of them and there's literally absolutely nothing your opponent can do to stop it. Every time I mass reapers I convince myself of how OP they are vs buildings.
In any case, I don't think reapers need a nerf, I think the tech lab needs a nerf. They should put the cost back up to where it was and make it take like 10 seconds longer.
yeah longer build time if this is a unsolvable problem. reapers are very strong 30 dmg. I massed like 20 reapers, 20 marines, 20 marauders, ahahah wat fun!
Yeah I seem to face this every single game now, it gets even better when the Terran proxys.
I really love these reactions by terrans getting into defensive mode about this and saying you only get like 2 probes or that you get units out in time to fight this, either you don't know what build this thread discusses (and thus shouldn't be posting) or you're lying to further your agenda of anti-balance in the beta (lol).
This thing kills A TON of probes no matter what the toss does, you can see the numbers right in the goddamn OP, 30 seconds is a long time for a reaper to be having a field day. The question is whether it's imbalanced (is the damage dealt by this in line with the sacrifice the terran is making to achieve this.
Yea I think the timing on the reapers is too fast. But on the other hand, protoss micro COULD improve to fend of the first reaper. Your stalker HAS to pop out by the time the second reaper comes.
This is all the rage in 2v2 right now (though I'm only in gold) - two reapers in your base this early is completely brutal. I wish I had a good answer for you, but I've just stopped playing Protoss for now :/
I've tested this and if you go 10pylon 11gate you will get a stalker out in time against a 10rax.
But if the Terran goes 8rax or 8rax proxy, the reaper will have at LEAST 10 seconds worth of free shots at your probes. That means they can kill at LEAST 2 probes (if they have horrible micro or are just dumb), which pretty much pays for the reaper. To make things worse, they won't even be behind if you fend it off because they can just float their rax back to their base. Sure, they lose a 50/25 tech lab, but it's really not all that much loss. Especially since Protoss was forced to go for a less-than-optimal build in the first place.
u dont have to cut probes besides making your gateway on 10.
save chrono for ur 2 units obv - make a zealot first to stall the reaper for 20 seconds and then u will have ur stalker and will be way ahead econ wise ez game
4 reapers can kill a stalker without losing any of the 4 if they are microed properly. 4 stalkers can kill a stalker with only 1 loss if they are not microed. Same goes for a queen. So even if the protoss player built 1 stalker, the reapers would kill it and go back to work on the mineral line while the protoss player has to wait for their second stalker to warp in . That is, of course, assuming that the reapers haven't knocked out your pylon and powered down your gateway. Reaper rush can be a very dangerous thing, and speaking as a terran main that loves to use this strategy, I know.
On April 03 2010 02:54 AltCtrlDel wrote: The Zealots should have a burst sprint ability (With cool down timer, not lasting too long) from the beginning to balance it out in this rush scenario or any .. just enough to track down a Reaper and at least combat it .. (Then if you wanted to after then "research" the ability that it currently has in the game) Reaper could micro skillfully to try and battle 2 or 3 Zeal's off which would be fair. <-- My 2 cents.. =X
On April 12 2010 16:21 Floophead_III wrote: Well, QXC did a proxy 8 rax reaper on Huk, killed 8 probes or something, and still lost. Clearly it can't be that bad =P
He killed EIGHT probes and then threw away the game.
The fact that he killed 8 probes should be enough evidence
On April 12 2010 16:21 Floophead_III wrote: Well, QXC did a proxy 8 rax reaper on Huk, killed 8 probes or something, and still lost. Clearly it can't be that bad =P
He killed EIGHT probes and then threw away the game.
The fact that he killed 8 probes should be enough evidence
In PvT...
1) 9 pylon, scout with probe 2) standard 12 gate - do you see a rax missing? lack of scv's with a fast gas? slow depot? get gas at 12 + core at 13, cutting probes as you see fit (that's how I do it). 3) Chrono a zealot, and build a pylon. Move your zealot to the most obvious/common reaper spot (even if the rax is proxied). If the reaver does absolutely no damage, you're ahead. It will take at least 1-2 hits if you do this properly and he jumps up into the zealot, and he'll have to kite it while your stalker comes out chronoboosted. 4) You are now ahead, and you can take the game.
I 9 pylon scout in all my PvT's, and haven't had had a problem with this rush since I started reacitng this way.
On April 12 2010 16:21 Floophead_III wrote: Well, QXC did a proxy 8 rax reaper on Huk, killed 8 probes or something, and still lost. Clearly it can't be that bad =P
He killed EIGHT probes and then threw away the game.
The fact that he killed 8 probes should be enough evidence
I don't even know why I bother... you're possibly the most stubborn player on all of TL. I don't even think you need to go zealot before stalker unless it's proxied. The stalker will pop out basically as that reaper enters your base WITHOUT probe cutting. I just do 10/11 pylon/gate every game and it works out great. I don't understand why you can't deal with something this simple.
On April 12 2010 16:21 Floophead_III wrote: Well, QXC did a proxy 8 rax reaper on Huk, killed 8 probes or something, and still lost. Clearly it can't be that bad =P
He killed EIGHT probes and then threw away the game.
The fact that he killed 8 probes should be enough evidence
I don't even know why I bother... you're possibly the most stubborn player on all of TL. I don't even think you need to go zealot before stalker unless it's proxied. The stalker will pop out basically as that reaper enters your base WITHOUT probe cutting. I just do 10/11 pylon/gate every game and it works out great. I don't understand why you can't deal with something this simple.
-orb- explained how this doesn't work in the OP, which actually had content in it, about exactly why the reaper arrives well before the stalker, involving both build time analysis and several dedicated testing matches. Your response: "I 10/11 every game and it works great."
I suspect the real reason you don't understand -orb- because you didn't read any of his posts.
I've gotten a stalker out in time when a terran player 6 barracks-refinery-Reaper'd me. The reaper had maybe 10ish seconds of free time in my base but I did have a zealot and 6 probes chasing him so he had no time to stop and attack. (and if he did the attacks went to the zealot) Meanwhile my chronoboosted stalker popped out and I was Reaper free. If I can get a stalker out (8 pylon > gate > refinery > core > Zealot >stalker right when core is done) when Terran tries to get a reaper the fastest possible against me, then I can't understand how 10 barracks would make it harder.
If you scout and see this, he obviously would not have sealed due to the delayed supply depot. Keep a probe in his base, maybe steal a vespene or throw up a pylon, cancel if the reaper doesn't take it as bait, loiter where the tech lab would be, trying to keep him from doing this cheese as quickly as possible, and chrono the stalker. Place the Stalker at the obvious reaper entry point.
On April 07 2010 01:59 avilo wrote: Are you guys kidding? Reaper is not a problem at all. Massive whine thread, when every good protoss gets their stalker out and stops it with 1 probe loss, if not two, and they're still sort of ahead of T half the time lmao.
and for gods sake, when you make the zealot don't simply chase the reaper with it, use 1-3 probes with the zealot to try to trap it and kill it, then ur stalker comes out chrono boosted and you're fine.
You act like 1: Getting a full surround on a reaper does anything because they won't just push the probes out of the way
and 2: like the reaper won't just snipe these probes as he's running.
I've mathematically proven it's impossible to hold off, so please go troll elsewhere, thanks.
you've mathematically proven that you can't see any variables outside your own equation... as already stated on this thread, it is possible to hold off and just because you can't do it doesn't mean its mathematically impossible, please stop your own trolling
On April 13 2010 04:16 NightOne wrote: don't go 13-14 gate and u won't have this problem...
quality advice.
I've found that if my stalker isn't going to be out in time I try and place 3-4 probes by the cliff so once he climbs up you surround and try to take it out. The best advice is to just keep moving and don't lose too many probes.
I do this in 2v2 it messes up a lot of people who aren't expecting it 8)
Vs anything other than proxy 8 rax a 10/11 opening will give you a stalker basically when his reaper is in your base. He might get 2-3 probe kills but that's not enough to put you behind. You don't even need a zealot. I've proven it over and over and over and it's getting really old. If it's a proxy rax you probably should get the zealot.
On April 13 2010 04:48 Floophead_III wrote: Vs anything other than proxy 8 rax a 10/11 opening will give you a stalker basically when his reaper is in your base. He might get 2-3 probe kills but that's not enough to put you behind. You don't even need a zealot. I've proven it over and over and over and it's getting really old. If it's a proxy rax you probably should get the zealot.
Would really appreciate some replays of you fending off 7 rax, 8 rax, proxy rax into reaper, etc. Would help lots, thanks in advance if you decide to provide some.
Will do if I get the time. I have a bunch but they're all hidden away in the mess of replays in my replay folder. Not gonna go dig through hundreds of unlabeled games.
On April 13 2010 04:48 Floophead_III wrote: Vs anything other than proxy 8 rax a 10/11 opening will give you a stalker basically when his reaper is in your base. He might get 2-3 probe kills but that's not enough to put you behind. You don't even need a zealot. I've proven it over and over and over and it's getting really old. If it's a proxy rax you probably should get the zealot.
On April 13 2010 06:00 Apexplayer wrote: I'm sorry, but is there a reason the sentry requires the cyber? Why not cut that then make the force field research able.
I think traditionally tier 1 units only required minerals to create. Then you create another structure for tier 1.5, typically the building doesn't require gas but the units you can create do require gas.
And besides the sentry is a spell casting unit that (when thinking about the lore) should require technology other than the gateway to produce.
i tell u a good idea for how to slow a reaper rush , -- find the barracks make a pilon right where the tech lab is , then he will lift the barracks stay with the probe under the barracks all the time , this will give u some additional seconds
On April 13 2010 13:53 insignia wrote: i tell u a good idea for how to slow a reaper rush , -- find the barracks make a pilon right where the tech lab is , then he will lift the barracks stay with the probe under the barracks all the time , this will give u some additional seconds
This is actually a pretty good idea. It's basically similar to denying Zerg an early expansion by building a pylon (or just moving your probe around the area nonstop) but more effective because Marines will come slower and scv's are more precious. Although thinking of traditional Terran build patterns, there isn't room to build a pylon at the choke unless you get there before he builds the barracks (most build both supply on the corners of the ramp and the barracks in the middle and then float the barracks to place the tech lab between the two depots).
On April 07 2010 20:14 Bane_ wrote: There's a post now on playxp showing a screenshot of a build that's even faster than the replay I posted. The first and second reaper are started at 2:15 and 2:59 which means they will pop out at 2:55 and 3:39 respectively. Looking through my games I see I generally don't even start my cybercore until about the 2:55-3:05 mark and since it takes another 78 seconds or so even if you chrono the stalker the whole time...that's an awful long time window during which they can attack and have you stuck with units that simply aren't meant to take on reapers. Is that really as easy to defend as a lot of you are trying to make out?
why are you waiting so long to get a cyber core!?!? Once scouted, do you REALLY think its worth it to pump out 2-3 zealots instead of getting that core out fast?.. if you see that fast geyser scouted, you should know to get core/stalker asap no?
On April 12 2010 16:21 Floophead_III wrote: Well, QXC did a proxy 8 rax reaper on Huk, killed 8 probes or something, and still lost. Clearly it can't be that bad =P
He killed EIGHT probes and then threw away the game.
The fact that he killed 8 probes should be enough evidence
I don't get this. I've experimented with tons of reaper openings, and my conclusion in the end is that it's just not worth it as long as the protoss doesn't decide to squueze in an extra round of CB:ing his probes before making a gateway. If you just go 10 Pylon -> 12 gate, you're going to shut down the reaper harass after losing 2 probes, tops.
I've tried 8 rax proxy, 9 rax proxy, 9 rax at my own choke, 10 rax at choke. The result is still the same, after my initial first reaper gets shut down, I'm behind in supply and worker count, even though I got off 2 probe kills in the process. The easiest way to nullify the harass is just getting the core before your first zealot, save up a CB and chronoboost the stalker out while chasing down the reaper with your zealot. By simply accepting the fact that "Okay, I'm going to lose two probes but it'll still put him way more behind than me" would help a lot, simply going apeshit over the fact that terran can get 2 "free" probekills in the beginning isn't going to cut it as a mindset. Terran invests so much into getting that quick reaper out, that it's still not worth it unless you can get 4+ probekills with your first reaper.
A reaper rush is just a nice tool to punish greedy players, just like a 9rax or 8rax bunkerrush was in SC/BW TvZ, by beeing greedy, you're usually taking a risk, 12 hatch was always riskier than 9 pool, and I don't see anyone crying out that 8rax bunkerrush was imbalanced.
if u fear reaper rush, just go fast stalker. ull lose 2-3 probe and thats it. this isnt a devastating issue, if ur losing to reaper rush your playing wrong.
Or modify them, so that they can't jump on cliffs. And add an upgrade, that allows reapers to jump cliffs or modify their speed upgrade, so that it allows them to jump (increases speed+allows to jump on cliffs).
On April 13 2010 13:53 insignia wrote: i tell u a good idea for how to slow a reaper rush , -- find the barracks make a pilon right where the tech lab is , then he will lift the barracks stay with the probe under the barracks all the time , this will give u some additional seconds
lol, i tell u what, out of all the stupid ideas people come up with, this one is actually pretty good
On April 13 2010 13:53 insignia wrote: i tell u a good idea for how to slow a reaper rush , -- find the barracks make a pilon right where the tech lab is , then he will lift the barracks stay with the probe under the barracks all the time , this will give u some additional seconds
lol, i tell u what, out of all the stupid ideas people come up with, this one is actually pretty good
and it gets a bonus point for funny
this is typical in low level play in SC1 blocking factory addons, isnt as effective as you would suspect, easily stoppable and doesnt really delay much unless the T is a derp dee derp
well i did it in plat rank 1500 ++ so it isn't that low leveled if u do it right , it only saves some seconds witch can be enought for stoping the first reaper with a stalker , than u can continue with a standart build , when the terran has low scv // supply and u have some advantage
Not sure if people are really facing the Super Fast Reaper rush. In the really fast one (proxy 6 rax) you get the first reaper inside your base at around 2:45, the second at 3:25. There is no possible way to have a stalker up in time even for the second Reaper and two of them kill probes and zealots so fast they hardly even have to micro. Even if you 11 gate you will have your first zealot out right before has two reapers inside your base.
Check for example this replay where a 20 APM guy does it (quite poorly but still), at least it shows how easy it is.
What is the appropriate counter for this? As even if I go fast Stalker I won't have it up until more than a minute later and by that time there are several Reapers in the base which have already killed everything.
On April 13 2010 19:53 Paladia wrote: Not sure if people are really facing the Super Fast Reaper rush. In the really fast one (proxy 6 rax) you get the first reaper inside your base at around 2:45, the second at 3:25. There is no possible way to have a stalker up in time even for the second Reaper and two of them kill probes and zealots so fast they hardly even have to micro. Even if you 11 gate you will have your first zealot out right before has two reapers inside your base.
Check for example this replay where a 20 APM guy does it (quite poorly but still), at least it shows how easy it is.
What is the appropriate counter for this? As even if I go fast Stalker I won't have it up until more than a minute later and by that time there are several Reapers in the base which have already killed everything.
I state again for the record that if someone does this kind of allin rush then it better pay off or they're dead. Get someone to do it against you for a couple games and see if you can't at least get even when the rush is over.
On April 13 2010 19:53 Paladia wrote: Not sure if people are really facing the Super Fast Reaper rush. In the really fast one (proxy 6 rax) you get the first reaper inside your base at around 2:45, the second at 3:25. There is no possible way to have a stalker up in time even for the second Reaper and two of them kill probes and zealots so fast they hardly even have to micro. Even if you 11 gate you will have your first zealot out right before has two reapers inside your base.
Check for example this replay where a 20 APM guy does it (quite poorly but still), at least it shows how easy it is.
What is the appropriate counter for this? As even if I go fast Stalker I won't have it up until more than a minute later and by that time there are several Reapers in the base which have already killed everything.
I state again for the record that if someone does this kind of allin rush then it better pay off or they're dead. Get someone to do it against you for a couple games and see if you can't at least get even when the rush is over.
The only way I've found to beat it is going 10 Gate (or even earlier) and rush to stalkers while using zealots / probes to defend but even then the failure rate is high. Not to mention I have to do it blindly, so if they don't go the rush I'm behind from the get go.
you have to build a barracks, a tech lab, a refinery and a supply depot to do a reaper rush. it is too expensive. you cut scv production and protoss doubles your supply with chrono boost.
terran is so behind in scv and supply count that it will be really hard to win if protoss loses 2-3 probes. protoss players lose it in their heads.
if protoss and zerg continues whining like this. every unit will own terran in the next patch. collossus, immortal, high templar, mass tier1 units, broodlord, mutalisk, baneling. terran unit and building build times are becoming ridiculous. upgrades are becoming ridiculous. terran is already hard to play.
we will all say gg in patch 9 when we enter the game. marauders and reapers will dance and start shooting with an upgrade
build a zealot and buy time with your probes until you get a stalker. you will lose 1 or 2 probes and own terran easily because terran doesn't have an economy if the rush fails.
terran doesn't wall in before tech lab. you can scout easily. if you don't scout and build 2 gates or skip zealot you will get owned of course.
try that. even bronze league players with 30 apm can do that.
On April 13 2010 23:29 gavss wrote: build a zealot and buy time with your probes until you get a stalker. you will lose 1 or 2 probes and own terran easily because terran doesn't have an economy if the rush fails.
terran doesn't wall in before tech lab. you can scout easily. if you don't scout and build 2 gates or skip zealot you will get owned of course.
try that. even bronze league players with 30 apm can do that.
orb is just trolling his thread now, I think it should be closed as we have enough feedback/counters/advice to this TvP opening.
On April 13 2010 23:20 -orb- wrote: i love when people talk about supply count for probes as if the MULE doesn't exist
Hey orb, I feel kind of bad for not recognizing the real problem. I know what you really need. I heard you can get some at this site: http://www.tampax.com/en-US/home/home.aspx
On April 13 2010 23:20 -orb- wrote: i love when people talk about supply count for probes as if the MULE doesn't exist
i love when people talk about MULE imbalance as if chronoboost doesn't exist...
/agreed with antimage that orb is just trolling this thread now since he can't exactly whine that its impossible to beat anymore, guess he learned how to do math or something..
Holding off Reaper with loosing next to nothing is quite easy, I'd go for 9pylon, then always in between 2 chronoboosted probes Gateway, then assim, then Pylon, then w8 till gateway finishes and Core. safe a chronoboost for first Stalker et voilà - BO win against any sort of Proxy-Reaper ^^'
What I think is much mroe annoying are T wallin's with some Marauder in front and maybe a Bunker when you try to pressure him that mass up 4 Reaper with Speed-Upgrade that hop in your base when you try to push out - extremely hard to deal with, especially on Maps like Kulas, DO, LT and Metalopolis.
Proxy-Reapers are quite bad though. If P goes for a now quite standard fast Stalker, you are way behind... ^^'
On April 13 2010 23:20 -orb- wrote: i love when people talk about supply count for probes as if the MULE doesn't exist
i love when people talk about MULE imbalance as if chronoboost doesn't exist...
/agreed with antimage that orb is just trolling this thread now since he can't exactly whine that its impossible to beat anymore, guess he learned how to do math or something..
somebody close thread please
What, you can't do simple addition?
Dumb fuck go check the math in the OP
I'm not the retard that keeps bumping this from the 3rd page of the strategy forum, don't look at me
On April 13 2010 23:20 -orb- wrote: i love when people talk about supply count for probes as if the MULE doesn't exist
Hey orb, I feel kind of bad for not recognizing the real problem. I know what you really need. I heard you can get some at this site: http://www.tampax.com/en-US/home/home.aspx
On April 13 2010 23:49 gavss wrote: you don't build mule when you 10 rax 10 ref rush because you need a supply depot and you need to build reapers. this topic is getting ridiculous.
You evidently have no idea how to play terran
zomg i herd building 1 reaper and then using your next 150 minerals on an orbital command is hard work guys what do you think?
yeah pressing that one button can be pretty hard, then you have to press another button to drop the mule
even if terran cuts scvs for a build like this and even if protoss uses every single chrono all game for probes instead of units protoss will still be behind on income so please stfu
On April 13 2010 23:20 -orb- wrote: i love when people talk about supply count for probes as if the MULE doesn't exist
At the end of the day, you're just a whiny little bitch aren't you?
1) That comment is in no way constructive and is completely off topic. 2) The solution to your little reaper tissue box issue has already been presented to you. 3) protoss has chrono boosts, so faster probe count, less production facility investments.
On April 13 2010 23:49 gavss wrote: you don't build mule when you 10 rax 10 ref rush because you need a supply depot and you need to build reapers. this topic is getting ridiculous.
You evidently have no idea how to play terran
zomg i herd building 1 reaper and then using your next 150 minerals on an orbital command is hard work guys what do you think?
yeah pressing that one button can be pretty hard, then you have to press another button to drop the mule
even if terran cuts scvs for a build like this and even if protoss uses every single chrono all game for probes instead of units protoss will still be behind on income so please stfu
Orb, once the stalker is out the reaper harrass is basically over. If a Terran rushes to reapers, he is behind, and he damn well ought to get something for taking that risk, so no, I don't think you should be able to get a stalker out in time to stop this completely unless you also cut probes. I watched one of the replays in the OP and you basically LET the guy kill your probes, you don't even try to dodge. Tried it myself a couple of times, 8 rax and 10rax, and if the protoss gets a zeal out or uses his probes in anything close to an intelligent way then the rush is a fair gamble, I can get shut down completely or I can get slightly ahead, worse odds than a 6 pool tbh.
On April 13 2010 23:49 gavss wrote: you don't build mule when you 10 rax 10 ref rush because you need a supply depot and you need to build reapers. this topic is getting ridiculous.
You evidently have no idea how to play terran
zomg i herd building 1 reaper and then using your next 150 minerals on an orbital command is hard work guys what do you think?
yeah pressing that one button can be pretty hard, then you have to press another button to drop the mule
even if terran cuts scvs for a build like this and even if protoss uses every single chrono all game for probes instead of units protoss will still be behind on income so please stfu
Orb, once the stalker is out the reaper harrass is basically over. If a Terran rushes to reapers, he is behind, and he damn well ought to get something for taking that risk, so no, I don't think you should be able to get a stalker out in time to stop this completely unless you also cut probes. I watched one of the replays in the OP and you basically LET the guy kill your probes, you don't even try to dodge. Tried it myself a couple of times, 8 rax and 10rax, and if the protoss gets a zeal out or uses his probes in anything close to an intelligent way then the rush is a fair gamble, I can get shut down completely or I can get slightly ahead, worse odds than a 6 pool tbh.
I don't know why ppl solely fixate on rushing, all-in's and cheese...
Reapers are good, I'd use them if I played Terran, but never for rushing, that's for sure.
But they're imba for scouting in the mid-game, they help you deal with any sort of cheese stuff on your cliff by giving you vision and on certain Maps like Kulas ravine they can even snipe the second gas at the Main and on LT, they can snipe the gas from the expansion, so your opponent has to invest into Observers, use a scan etc. just do deal with one little Reaper that gets out of a building you need anyways, why do you want to rush with them in addition to all that? ^^'
On April 13 2010 23:20 -orb- wrote: i love when people talk about supply count for probes as if the MULE doesn't exist
i love when people talk about MULE imbalance as if chronoboost doesn't exist...
/agreed with antimage that orb is just trolling this thread now since he can't exactly whine that its impossible to beat anymore, guess he learned how to do math or something..
somebody close thread please
What, you can't do simple addition?
Dumb fuck go check the math in the OP
I'm not the retard that keeps bumping this from the 3rd page of the strategy forum, don't look at me
Ur dumb, your math on the reaper doesn't make it "mathematically impossible" to beat, it just makes you a whiney little scrub that cant find the solution on his own so you come bitching on these forums with your excuse for "imba" and "overpowred" or some other riduculous excuse etc
and the fact that you are posting still means you are the retard that keeps bumping thi sfrom the 3rd page of the strategy forum, because you are the OP u are responsible for your own thread, kthx
sidenote: if you can comprehend something beyond your own bias observations
MULE does not automatically put protoss behind on income since chronoboosted probes actually go a long way, maybe check economy and income after every PVT game from now on k? its pretty even every time unless you can't macro or comprehend that maybe he expanded and has more mineral patches and more scvs.. k?.. ok.. thats what i thought k thx bye
can't wait until you come to these forums about some other "mathematically impossible to beat" strategy, itll be something ridiculous tomorrow with thor drops, you will inevitably come to the forums with 10 replays getting bent over by rank 3 bronze players that do fast thor drop and whine that they are imba and its "mathematically impossible" to get a stalker out before a thor or something...
On April 13 2010 23:20 -orb- wrote: i love when people talk about supply count for probes as if the MULE doesn't exist
At the end of the day, you're just a whiny little bitch aren't you?
1) That comment is in no way constructive and is completely off topic. 2) The solution to your little reaper tissue box issue has already been presented to you. 3) protoss has chrono boosts, so faster probe count, less production facility investments.
On April 13 2010 23:29 gavss wrote: build a zealot and buy time with your probes until you get a stalker. you will lose 1 or 2 probes and own terran easily because terran doesn't have an economy if the rush fails.
terran doesn't wall in before tech lab. you can scout easily. if you don't scout and build 2 gates or skip zealot you will get owned of course.
try that. even bronze league players with 30 apm can do that.
orb is just trolling his thread now, I think it should be closed as we have enough feedback/counters/advice to this TvP opening.
Didn't really get any feedback on how to deal with 6 rax reaper rush.
I even tried it a couple of times myself (even though I don't play Terran) to see how other Protoss deals with it, unfortunately I won every game despite never having played the race before and being a poor player in general, not to mention everyone I faced was higher ranked than me.
Will have to try it a bit more and see if any toss has a viable strategy against it, as dealing with 2 reapers and one bunker being made while you only have zealots is fairly annoying to say the least.
Seems quite clear to me that the skill required to defend it is much higher than the skill to do it.
On April 13 2010 23:20 -orb- wrote: i love when people talk about supply count for probes as if the MULE doesn't exist
Hey orb, I feel kind of bad for not recognizing the real problem. I know what you really need. I heard you can get some at this site: http://www.tampax.com/en-US/home/home.aspx
That supposed to be ironic considering your immortal thread?
i've been doing the whole fast reaper lately only to be met by a stalker when i get to the protoss base. some fools make a zealot/sentry first, but that happens once in a blue moon.
and the fact that you are posting still means you are the retard that keeps bumping thi sfrom the 3rd page of the strategy forum, because you are the OP u are responsible for your own thread, kthx
Hey orb, I feel kind of bad for not recognizing the real problem. I know what you really need. I heard you can get some at this site: http://www.tampax.com/en-US/home/home.aspx
completely unwarranted and rude. orb didnt even post in this until it got bumped again since like page 7. and floop you have your own immortal thread, if orb didnt have a history of rage on his stream this would be no different from your thread.
orb is just trolling his thread now, I think it should be closed as we have enough feedback/counters/advice to this TvP opening.
it would be great if higher caliber players like yourself could set an example.
just because an OP makes a post doesnt mean he's the only one with the problem, thats the whole point of the forum . you dont have to close the discussion once its been discussed.
im not even an orb fanboy and i still think you guys are being mean.
On April 14 2010 02:03 TwilightStar wrote: I'm ALWAYS able to get a stalker out in time to deal with a reaper... I'm not sure how this is a problem anymore o_O
How are you able to get a stalker out before 3 minutes?
Doesn't seem like you've encountered the 6 rax Reaper rush.
You cannot have a Stalker before the reaper reaches you'r base if he's proxies you, but you can have a zealot that can chase the reaper and prevent probe kills until the stalker arrives.
man i lost to this just now, complete bullshit it honestly better be fixed -_- although i'll admit i did make a mistake not getting a stalker fast enough/letting him kill my mother****ing pylon.
On April 14 2010 19:37 Vei wrote: man i lost to this just now, complete bullshit it honestly better be fixed -_- although i'll admit i did make a mistake not getting a stalker fast enough/letting him kill my mother****ing pylon.
i'd rage more if i wasn't a zerg player >_>
i like how you say its bullshit and then immediately give a glaring reason for why it was your mistake.
I used a zealot and 2 probes to stall the reaper until the stalker came out. Yes, I still lost the zealot and 2-3 probes, but then the second reaper killed just one probe and died, and then stalkers moved out and made the proxy barracks lift off / killed the tech lab which IMO is not too bad as he loses the tempo and is very weak to a counter-attack.
ppl are giving this thread way to much cred, if he wants the superearly reaper he will loose more on economy than he will damage you, reapers are useless, I mean honestly you didnt even kill the bunker with your probes... 1 zealot/probes chasing until stalker is out is more than enough to make protoss come out ahead of that...
I've been proxy rushed reaper quite quick, i just used 1 zealot, and surrounded with probes to kill his first 2, stalker was out in no time, reaper rush over, I end up winning as he has to lift off and fly barracks back.
On April 15 2010 17:09 Gifted.best wrote: I've been proxy rushed reaper quite quick, i just used 1 zealot, and surrounded with probes to kill his first 2, stalker was out in no time, reaper rush over, I end up winning as he has to lift off and fly barracks back.
doesnt sound like a decent rush if he dies two reapers to probes.... at best reapercheese is an annoyance tho. there should be no bunker being made, just put two probes on killing the scv, problem solved.. he has to kill like 5+ probes for this to be worth it, he wont against protoss who is non-retard :/
if this build is so impossible as orb suggests, why doesnt every top level terran do it? and orb is known for exaggerating small problems.
edit: no replies saying omg watch the reps etc, I did and more people responding to this thread should take a closer look lols
On April 15 2010 17:09 Gifted.best wrote: I've been proxy rushed reaper quite quick, i just used 1 zealot, and surrounded with probes to kill his first 2, stalker was out in no time, reaper rush over, I end up winning as he has to lift off and fly barracks back.
if this build is so impossible as orb suggests, why doesnt every top level terran do it? and orb is known for exaggerating small problems.
I know one guy who went from bronze to #4 in platinum by only doing this rush, another reached #2 in platinum. This is a major problem and no replay in this thread actually shows the real rush.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1413 is a replay of a bronze guy doing it against a platinum player (on the worst map to do the rush on). Having a Reaper inside your base at 2:45 with a bunker being constructed at the same time is almost impossible to deal with unless you are a much better player and got some luck with scouting.
I didn't encounter this 6-rax reaper rush build yet but should it become common, the counter i would try is to scout it early and kill the scv building the rax with 1 or 2 workers.
On April 15 2010 17:09 Gifted.best wrote: I've been proxy rushed reaper quite quick, i just used 1 zealot, and surrounded with probes to kill his first 2, stalker was out in no time, reaper rush over, I end up winning as he has to lift off and fly barracks back.
if this build is so impossible as orb suggests, why doesnt every top level terran do it? and orb is known for exaggerating small problems.
I know one guy who went from bronze to #4 in platinum by only doing this rush, another reached #2 in platinum. This is a major problem and no replay in this thread actually shows the real rush.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1413 is a replay of a bronze guy doing it against a platinum player (on the worst map to do the rush on). Having a Reaper inside your base at 2:45 with a bunker being constructed at the same time is almost impossible to deal with unless you are a much better player and got some luck with scouting.
You guys are being ridiculous. Here's me playing that "bronze league" player and winning easily. This is the easiest strategy in the game to stop and come out ahead unless you go for 13 gate. If blizzard patches tech lab build time to compensate for this non-issue, it's going to ruin early and mid game PvT balance (and imo, as a toss player, it favors toss since the marauder change). This is an all in strategy, and you need to lose literally 7 or 8 probes to come out behind.
Yes, with his 50 apm he couldn't micro and stop my probe from killing his scvs, but still, a player with perfect micro is not going to kill enough probes in time, and won't recover from his horrible economy.
I watched the reps from OP and it looks rather solid even when you expect it. The second game seams strange. Orb could have microed probes away from harm far better and in the end he was even on them with terran... but terran had orbital command. When I start playing terran I will definately incorporate it in my builds. It looks strong enough.
On April 15 2010 17:09 Gifted.best wrote: I've been proxy rushed reaper quite quick, i just used 1 zealot, and surrounded with probes to kill his first 2, stalker was out in no time, reaper rush over, I end up winning as he has to lift off and fly barracks back.
if this build is so impossible as orb suggests, why doesnt every top level terran do it? and orb is known for exaggerating small problems.
I know one guy who went from bronze to #4 in platinum by only doing this rush, another reached #2 in platinum. This is a major problem and no replay in this thread actually shows the real rush.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1413 is a replay of a bronze guy doing it against a platinum player (on the worst map to do the rush on). Having a Reaper inside your base at 2:45 with a bunker being constructed at the same time is almost impossible to deal with unless you are a much better player and got some luck with scouting.
You guys are being ridiculous. Here's me playing that "bronze league" player and winning easily. This is the easiest strategy in the game to stop and come out ahead unless you go for 13 gate. If blizzard patches tech lab build time to compensate for this non-issue, it's going to ruin early and mid game PvT balance (and imo, as a toss player, it favors toss since the marauder change). This is an all in strategy, and you need to lose literally 7 or 8 probes to come out behind.
Yes, with his 50 apm he couldn't micro and stop my probe from killing his scvs, but still, a player with perfect micro is not going to kill enough probes in time, and won't recover from his horrible economy.
Now you are obviously trolling. You're facing a bronze league player with 30 APM, you don't even scout it and go 10 gate and 11 assimilator "out of the blue"?
Not only that, he seriously messed up everything. He didn't make a bunker, he didn't even proxy, he "forgot" an scv and a reaper inside his base that was just idling.
Do you always go 10 gate and 11 assimilator vs Terran without scouting? That game is obviously a setup. If you have to go 10 gate 11 assimilator in every game vs Terran, know it is coming and have 4 times his apm player in order to beat it, something is obviously very very wrong.
On April 15 2010 17:09 Gifted.best wrote: I've been proxy rushed reaper quite quick, i just used 1 zealot, and surrounded with probes to kill his first 2, stalker was out in no time, reaper rush over, I end up winning as he has to lift off and fly barracks back.
if this build is so impossible as orb suggests, why doesnt every top level terran do it? and orb is known for exaggerating small problems.
I know one guy who went from bronze to #4 in platinum by only doing this rush, another reached #2 in platinum. This is a major problem and no replay in this thread actually shows the real rush.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1413 is a replay of a bronze guy doing it against a platinum player (on the worst map to do the rush on). Having a Reaper inside your base at 2:45 with a bunker being constructed at the same time is almost impossible to deal with unless you are a much better player and got some luck with scouting.
You guys are being ridiculous. Here's me playing that "bronze league" player and winning easily. This is the easiest strategy in the game to stop and come out ahead unless you go for 13 gate. If blizzard patches tech lab build time to compensate for this non-issue, it's going to ruin early and mid game PvT balance (and imo, as a toss player, it favors toss since the marauder change). This is an all in strategy, and you need to lose literally 7 or 8 probes to come out behind.
Yes, with his 50 apm he couldn't micro and stop my probe from killing his scvs, but still, a player with perfect micro is not going to kill enough probes in time, and won't recover from his horrible economy.
He didn't even proxy rax, got owned by your scouting probe (lol), and the reaper was inside your base at 3:30 iirc, not even close to 2:45. He even tried to kill that same scouting probe, and failed. That player is #2 platinum ? As toss i usually go 8pylon 10 gate because i know players will do these kind of chese, seems like that is going to be more than enough.
lol, a week or so after this thread was made and it just seems hilarious. "super fast reapers" usually means autoloss in the game right now. 1 fast reaper is not worth having only 3-5 scvs mining minerals lmao.
for those of you who dont want to watch the replay orb posted, its proxy 8 rax, ultra fast reaver into proxy 2-rax marauders. Orb Chrono'd the zealot and the stalker
Yeah man its 8racks reaper cheese. it wont work on every map the cliff jumping ability makes it OP on that map with over half of your base being cliffs and cliffs are at your mineral line. So many places it can be placed and still be effective.
50/50 map/reaper imbalance perhaps cliff jumping should be a research to delay this short of cheese?
If you make your gateway after your 10th probe (after getting 9 pylon). (Halt probe production) You're stalker should come like 40 or so seconds sooner. The reaper rush is still annoying as hell but in the case of the replay above, a majority of the damage would have been prevented with a 10-gate. It's a small cut in economy, but considering how much eco the terran cuts you'll be ahead. And if it turns out he's not doing a reaper rush you're not significantly farther behind from a normal 12 or 13 gate build.
On April 17 2010 02:04 RoboFerret wrote: If you make your gateway after your 10th probe (after getting 9 pylon). (Halt probe production) You're stalker should come like 40 or so seconds sooner. The reaper rush is still annoying as hell but in the case of the replay above, a majority of the damage would have been prevented with a 10-gate. It's a small cut in economy, but considering how much eco the terran cuts you'll be ahead. And if it turns out he's not doing a reaper rush you're not significantly farther behind from a normal 12 or 13 gate build.
Learn your math please. Building your gate on your 10th probe will
1: not be 40 seconds faster 2: I'm pretty sure you won't be able to actually continuously produce shit (as in make that cybernetics core immediately when the gateway finishes and then make the zealot and stalker immediately when possible)
On April 17 2010 02:04 RoboFerret wrote: If you make your gateway after your 10th probe (after getting 9 pylon). (Halt probe production) You're stalker should come like 40 or so seconds sooner. The reaper rush is still annoying as hell but in the case of the replay above, a majority of the damage would have been prevented with a 10-gate. It's a small cut in economy, but considering how much eco the terran cuts you'll be ahead. And if it turns out he's not doing a reaper rush you're not significantly farther behind from a normal 12 or 13 gate build.
Learn your math please. Building your gate on your 10th probe will
1: not be 40 seconds faster 2: I'm pretty sure you won't be able to actually continuously produce shit (as in make that cybernetics core immediately when the gateway finishes and then make the zealot and stalker immediately when possible)
Yea, the biggest problem I have when facing this is not the gateway timing, really. It's the cycore timing. Even if you go 10gate (which is horribly un-economic) you still have to figure out whether to build cycore once gate finishes or a zealot. That's a pretty large decision because all the zealot will do is buy you some time, while you absolutely need that cycore up for stalkers before the Terran decides to build a proxy bunker in your mineral line.
@zizou: You absolutely can build cannons but if the Terran sees a forge they'll just FE.
Okay it comes out about 20+ seconds faster. 1:23 your gateway could be started. At 65 seconds let's just say it'll finish at 2:30, then the cybercore could go up, finishing at around 3:23 (I'm even throwing in a few seconds on top making the assumption its not made instantly) Which means with chronoboosting you can have a stalker out in under 4:00 minutes.
And yes, you can produce all the buildings required.
As I said in my original post, Reaper rushes still suck to deal with, but that 20something seconds would have saved you a lot of trouble in that game.
And from personal experience it works for me against terran.
On April 17 2010 02:04 RoboFerret wrote: If you make your gateway after your 10th probe (after getting 9 pylon). (Halt probe production) You're stalker should come like 40 or so seconds sooner. The reaper rush is still annoying as hell but in the case of the replay above, a majority of the damage would have been prevented with a 10-gate. It's a small cut in economy, but considering how much eco the terran cuts you'll be ahead. And if it turns out he's not doing a reaper rush you're not significantly farther behind from a normal 12 or 13 gate build.
Learn your math please. Building your gate on your 10th probe will
1: not be 40 seconds faster 2: I'm pretty sure you won't be able to actually continuously produce shit (as in make that cybernetics core immediately when the gateway finishes and then make the zealot and stalker immediately when possible)
Your cybernetics core came 4 seconds after your gateway finished, because you weren't willing to cut 1 probe. You also don't even attack his reaper with your probes until he kills about 3 of them and his 2nd reaper comes.
Even after you lost all those workers, you were still ahead, 11 to 8 and instead of getting more stalkers when you had the money, you queued up probes. I'll test this out with you if you want, you can go 6 rax, and I'll play standard 12 gate.
On April 17 2010 03:45 Weedman wrote: What if you stole the terrans gas early :D Maybe that could slow down some reaper harass!
You'd have to steal both gas for the gas stealing to do any good. And that's a 150 mineral investment to gas steal both geysers, which will set you very far behind.
EDIT: Also, all they need is 1 gas and chances are they will have 1 geyser building by the time your scout gets there (assuming regular 9 or 10 scout)
Chrono nothing but probes. Just before the reaper arrives, go punch his SCVs in the face with an army of probes. The reaper will be like whoa...where'd all the probes go?!
You don't, really. It's a combination of a broken strategy and a terrible, terrible map. Hopefully it will get the attention it deserves from Blizzard, but I wouldn't hold your breath since this kind of thing is only done by randoms on the ladder anyhow, right?
Despite what people say, the Terran will end up ahead no matter how they transition out of it. I've done this on both sides of the matchup, and it's always been the case. This guy you played continued with the all-in attitude and won easily. Other times Terrans will just start macroing up after the first 2 reapers, and the only thing you'll have going for you is your early core because you're going to lose a ton of probes no matter what you do.
Last night me and a friend did 10+ games with me going 6rax reaper and him trying to defend. We found that first of all, on the small 1vs1 maps, an earlier scout does alot, as the very small number of scvs the terran has are easily fucked with. Second, if the bunker finishes, the protoss is done, no chance, gg. Imo targeting a building scv needs to become easier. But the real killer is the marauders that come after the harass, which begs the consideration of whether reapers are the real problem.
Thing is, once the stalker is out, reapers become pretty much useless for the rest of the game. Very early game is pretty much the only time they have a use. I've tried using them for harassing mid to late game but its nowhere near cost efficient. Make them a whole lot less niche or axe them imo.
I found in a recent game that the best TvP mid to late game worker harasser is the ghost. If you emp the probes they are oneshotted, two or three ghosts can take out a whole mineral line in seconds. Reason they're better than hellions is, they got cloak, and they excel at killing scanned observers.
The replay wasn't 6 rax it was 8 rax, dunno why all you guys keep referring to testing out 6 rax, which in my opinion is an inferior build due to how far it puts the terran behind
On April 17 2010 01:37 btxmonty wrote: Maybe cliff jumping should be researchable?
And put it on the Engineering Bay just to be extra evil
Am I the only one feeling that the mule is the root to all T problems? I feel that all the nerf T has suffered in the different patches can be traced back to the Mule rather than some imbalance of the units. SCV+Rine push, early Maruaders with concussive shells, now the superfast Reapers.
I'm not suggesting that the Mule is imba in any way, but since it creates money from only energy (chrono boost and spawn larva doesn't obviously) it opens up for really early unitproduction for the Terran race. The 8raxes and 11starport(vsZ) is imo not even that cheesy since the mules makes the transsision into a macro game later possible.
find where he is building the rax with ur scout, target the scv building it, he will either run or die, either way it delays his rax by a shitload, and forcing him to send another scv is even harder on his economy. i know its not always easy to find the rax, but whenever i face terran i do a scout around the proximity of my base and i find a barracks being built a surprising amount of times. and if you do find it, its basically gg right there. if they build it in their base you should have a stalker out in good enough time. small maps may be a problem with rax in their base i dunno.
On April 17 2010 08:14 -orb- wrote: The replay wasn't 6 rax it was 8 rax, dunno why all you guys keep referring to testing out 6 rax, which in my opinion is an inferior build due to how far it puts the terran behind
We just did it 6rax because it got the reaper out faster and was more decisive, if you can't stop 6rax then its broken. Basically unless he changed his bo to expect the rush, there was no way to stop it.
On April 17 2010 01:37 btxmonty wrote: Maybe cliff jumping should be researchable?
And put it on the Engineering Bay just to be extra evil
Am I the only one feeling that the mule is the root to all T problems? I feel that all the nerf T has suffered in the different patches can be traced back to the Mule rather than some imbalance of the units. SCV+Rine push, early Maruaders with concussive shells, now the superfast Reapers.
I'm not suggesting that the Mule is imba in any way, but since it creates money from only energy (chrono boost and spawn larva doesn't obviously) it opens up for really early unitproduction for the Terran race. The 8raxes and 11starport(vsZ) is imo not even that cheesy since the mules makes the transsision into a macro game later possible.
yeah i've been thinking that too... what if orbital command didn't start with energy for one? it already builds so damn fast...
On April 17 2010 01:18 Chen wrote: for those of you who dont want to watch the replay orb posted, its proxy 8 rax, ultra fast reaver into proxy 2-rax marauders. Orb Chrono'd the zealot and the stalker
yeah... and orb sat there and spammed apm when the terran ran his reaper into the middle of his probe line... instead of just two clicking it and killing it by surrounding with probes, he has 250 apm from doing what? spamming hotkeys? he also knew were the proxy was as soon as the first reaper got there and he just sat spamming apm with his stalkers chillin near his probes instead of shutting it down... the three replays i've seen of orb 'trying' to stop proxy reapers he has 200-300apm and isn't even doing anything with it while his opponent's reapers chill and shoot at his probes...
does anyone try to treat it like a bunker rush? in sc1you pull how many drones if the terran tries to bunker your nat? 5 if you're jaedong... and 6-8 if you're not?
i think it looks like more of a mule timing issue. if you can just replace not having 6 scvs by using energy that your cc starts with, and you don't have to have to pay for food for it either... why would you want to build those scvs at all when you can just catch up in the next 90 seconds or less?
Has anyone tried doing a 6/7 worker scout to keep tabs on when he moves out with his workers? And possibly just use your worker to fight his worker just to stop the proxy? I'm curious.
On April 17 2010 01:18 Chen wrote: for those of you who dont want to watch the replay orb posted, its proxy 8 rax, ultra fast reaver into proxy 2-rax marauders. Orb Chrono'd the zealot and the stalker
yeah... and orb sat there and spammed apm when the terran ran his reaper into the middle of his probe line... instead of just two clicking it and killing it by surrounding with probes, he has 250 apm from doing what? spamming hotkeys? he also knew were the proxy was as soon as the first reaper got there and he just sat spamming apm with his stalkers chillin near his probes instead of shutting it down... the three replays i've seen of orb 'trying' to stop proxy reapers he has 200-300apm and isn't even doing anything with it while his opponent's reapers chill and shoot at his probes...
does anyone try to treat it like a bunker rush? in sc1you pull how many drones if the terran tries to bunker your nat? 5 if you're jaedong... and 6-8 if you're not?
i think it looks like more of a mule timing issue. if you can just replace not having 6 scvs by using energy that your cc starts with, and you don't have to have to pay for food for it either... why would you want to build those scvs at all when you can just catch up in the next 90 seconds or less?
Have you actually tried killing reapers with probes before, or are you just being facetious? The comment about surrounding them with probes is especially choice.
On April 17 2010 01:18 Chen wrote: for those of you who dont want to watch the replay orb posted, its proxy 8 rax, ultra fast reaver into proxy 2-rax marauders. Orb Chrono'd the zealot and the stalker
yeah... and orb sat there and spammed apm when the terran ran his reaper into the middle of his probe line... instead of just two clicking it and killing it by surrounding with probes, he has 250 apm from doing what? spamming hotkeys? he also knew were the proxy was as soon as the first reaper got there and he just sat spamming apm with his stalkers chillin near his probes instead of shutting it down... the three replays i've seen of orb 'trying' to stop proxy reapers he has 200-300apm and isn't even doing anything with it while his opponent's reapers chill and shoot at his probes...
does anyone try to treat it like a bunker rush? in sc1you pull how many drones if the terran tries to bunker your nat? 5 if you're jaedong... and 6-8 if you're not?
i think it looks like more of a mule timing issue. if you can just replace not having 6 scvs by using energy that your cc starts with, and you don't have to have to pay for food for it either... why would you want to build those scvs at all when you can just catch up in the next 90 seconds or less?
Have you actually tried killing reapers with probes before, or are you just being facetious? The comment about surrounding them with probes is especially choice.
yeah i've tried it, and, yes, it was mostly facetious, but only because that's the most fun way to be! and it's a beta!
in the replays orb posted there were a few of parts where it looked very slightly barely but stilllll winnable to me if he just used his probes... (i'll put pictures up tomorrow if i can remember to do so)
the only way i've had any wins against this crap is placing everything in my base specifically so that if they rush with a reaper and i'm aware with my probes i can trap and kill it with my zealot feigning towards the different reaper routes (will make more sense with pictures) and getting the scv... but yeah... if you don't get that first reaper... fuckkkkkk
i know i already said it... but i'm pretty sure if they changed the orbital command so that you couldn't take care of all your macro 35 seconds after your edit:barracks is up... proxy 8rax reaper would actually be an all in. and i'd be okay with that.
i am going to try getting to top 5 in whatever division i end up in after the reset using only 8rax proxy if they don't do anything to it next patch.
I know this is my first post, but I've been reading the forums for a while and just thought I'd add my 2 cents here. I've gone up against this 3 times today. The first two I did standard opening and got killed. The third time I scouted it with my probe after building a pylon on 9 (this was on steps of war). I saw he had a 1/2 finished rax and almost finished gas (I went back and watched the replay he went 8rax 10 gas) so I canceled my gateway and put up a forge. I was kind of expecting it so i had kept my original pylon around my base. The forge was up at 14/18 I kept building probes and had 4 cannons protecting my main when his first reaper hit. When I watched the replay I had 2 cannons done and the other two started when his reaper finished. After holding off that first reaper I put up 2 gateways and a core and then a sentry and a stalker which allowed me to push out. Cannons out range reapers and can kill one in 3 shots. Just my 2 cents. (btw my opponent was in gold ranked 11 in his division but I didn't see any way he could have gotten the reaper out faster).
I rush my stalker asap, but if I scout and see he proxied his rax (ie faster reaper outing) I will build one zeal while my core is being built, to at least chase abit so the reaper cant just reign free on my probes. Sure it puts your stalker and economy behind abit, but it is worth it to possibly only lose 1-2 probes instead of 4-5.
Also, if I am feeling extremely vunerable to a reaper rush from the start (ie the player is a known cheeser, a randomer or certain maps) - I make sure to pylon on 8, gate on 9, core 10. It gives me a few extra seconds for that stalker to come faster, at the cost of economy. But better safe than sorry in certain situations.
On April 17 2010 01:18 Chen wrote: for those of you who dont want to watch the replay orb posted, its proxy 8 rax, ultra fast reaver into proxy 2-rax marauders. Orb Chrono'd the zealot and the stalker
yeah... and orb sat there and spammed apm when the terran ran his reaper into the middle of his probe line... instead of just two clicking it and killing it by surrounding with probes, he has 250 apm from doing what? spamming hotkeys? he also knew were the proxy was as soon as the first reaper got there and he just sat spamming apm with his stalkers chillin near his probes instead of shutting it down... the three replays i've seen of orb 'trying' to stop proxy reapers he has 200-300apm and isn't even doing anything with it while his opponent's reapers chill and shoot at his probes...
does anyone try to treat it like a bunker rush? in sc1you pull how many drones if the terran tries to bunker your nat? 5 if you're jaedong... and 6-8 if you're not?
i think it looks like more of a mule timing issue. if you can just replace not having 6 scvs by using energy that your cc starts with, and you don't have to have to pay for food for it either... why would you want to build those scvs at all when you can just catch up in the next 90 seconds or less?
You're fucking terrible and this doesn't even warrant a serious reply
On April 17 2010 20:01 Mythranor wrote: I know this is my first post, but I've been reading the forums for a while and just thought I'd add my 2 cents here. I've gone up against this 3 times today. The first two I did standard opening and got killed. The third time I scouted it with my probe after building a pylon on 9 (this was on steps of war). I saw he had a 1/2 finished rax and almost finished gas (I went back and watched the replay he went 8rax 10 gas) so I canceled my gateway and put up a forge. I was kind of expecting it so i had kept my original pylon around my base. The forge was up at 14/18 I kept building probes and had 4 cannons protecting my main when his first reaper hit. When I watched the replay I had 2 cannons done and the other two started when his reaper finished. After holding off that first reaper I put up 2 gateways and a core and then a sentry and a stalker which allowed me to push out. Cannons out range reapers and can kill one in 3 shots. Just my 2 cents. (btw my opponent was in gold ranked 11 in his division but I didn't see any way he could have gotten the reaper out faster).
So you spent 600 minerals on cannons, you now have literally 0 map control and 0 army and you are irrevocably behind by a gigantic margin. Grats now you lose.
On April 17 2010 20:35 Skyze wrote: I rush my stalker asap, but if I scout and see he proxied his rax (ie faster reaper outing) I will build one zeal while my core is being built, to at least chase abit so the reaper cant just reign free on my probes. Sure it puts your stalker and economy behind abit, but it is worth it to possibly only lose 1-2 probes instead of 4-5.
Also, if I am feeling extremely vunerable to a reaper rush from the start (ie the player is a known cheeser, a randomer or certain maps) - I make sure to pylon on 8, gate on 9, core 10. It gives me a few extra seconds for that stalker to come faster, at the cost of economy. But better safe than sorry in certain situations.
I apologize in advance for being so god damn bad manner to all you dumb fucks in my thread, but holy fucking shit.
It's like an endless fucking stream of dumb fucking morons that come into the thread spewing their fucking idiocy all over the place. Read the fucking OP, watch the fucking replay, or get the fuck out I don't give a shit what you have to say.
What you've said has been said already and it doesn't fucking work if you had read the thread at all, so please kill yourself for being so god damn stupid.
I'm so tired of 90% of the replies to topics these days being from retards that don't even read the OP let alone even a fraction of the rest of the thread. You're not welcome
On April 17 2010 20:35 Skyze wrote: I rush my stalker asap, but if I scout and see he proxied his rax (ie faster reaper outing) I will build one zeal while my core is being built, to at least chase abit so the reaper cant just reign free on my probes. Sure it puts your stalker and economy behind abit, but it is worth it to possibly only lose 1-2 probes instead of 4-5.
Also, if I am feeling extremely vunerable to a reaper rush from the start (ie the player is a known cheeser, a randomer or certain maps) - I make sure to pylon on 8, gate on 9, core 10. It gives me a few extra seconds for that stalker to come faster, at the cost of economy. But better safe than sorry in certain situations.
I apologize in advance for being so god damn bad manner to all you dumb fucks in my thread, but holy fucking shit.
It's like an endless fucking stream of dumb fucking morons that come into the thread spewing their fucking idiocy all over the place. Read the fucking OP, watch the fucking replay, or get the fuck out I don't give a shit what you have to say.
What you've said has been said already and it doesn't fucking work if you had read the thread at all, so please kill yourself for being so god damn stupid.
I'm so tired of 90% of the replies to topics these days being from retards that don't even read the OP let alone even a fraction of the rest of the thread. You're not welcome
Propably a little too harsh (but we know you like that ) but I agree that a lot of serious discussions are totally dumped by saying things like:
FF are imba, Immortals are imba, play 2 canons they got buffed, ultras are too weak and terran marauder is totally broken...
I'm so tired reading suggestions that regard ONE matchup out of THREE per race and will totally fuck up the balance in any way possible...
I pray blizzard is making more wise decisions...
However back2topic:
A mate and I tried it out in 2vs2, worked flawlessly and is almost unstoppable unless the aggressor does totally blunder his units...
This needs a fix definately, I kinda like the idea getting that jump a research since, for instance, the "harass" unit DT got time nerfed beyond the sake of a late game and Reaper are still a very very strong building killer.
I played my last two games against T who both proxy reaper rushed. Although I'm top ten gold league I know there's huge skill difference between me and some of you high platinum guys, so don't bash me, but this is how i fended it off-
In both games I built pylon on 9 and scouted with the same probe. I continued with standard build even when I found he's proxying -> chrono boosting nexus, building probes, gateway on 13, then assimilator. First difference is not chrono boosting on 14, but saving it. Right when my gateway finished I started building zealot and chrono boosted.
In the first game on Blistering sands my opponent built barracks on 9 and by the time his first reaper came into my base, my zealot was ready. While making cyber core I chrono boost another zealot so I have 2 zealots before he comes with 2nd reaper to my base. Now I don't know if it's mistake, but he tried to kill those two zealots while building marauders. He eventually managed to take those zealots down, but they damaged those reapers a bit and more importantly my stalker popped from gateway right after lots died (there's the important point of saving chrono at 14). Stalker > 2 reapers so he waited for marauder and came to my base, but I had already 2 stalkers and from then it was pretty much gg.
Second game was on Steppes of war and I smelled something fishy right when he asked "from" out of nowhere lol. He built rax on 8, so his reaper was in my base 6-8 seconds before my zealot popped, he killed it, but was unable to do any other damage, then he killed the second one and tried to take cybernetics down, but my stalker popped in time and with 3rd reaper coming he rage quit.
So yeah, I don't find this rush hard to counter, but maybe it's because I didn't play against someone with jaedong micro who could kill X workers while dodging my zealots.
On April 17 2010 23:41 ondik wrote: I played my last two games against T who both proxy reaper rushed. Although I'm top ten gold league I know there's huge skill difference between me and some of you high platinum guys, so don't bash me, but this is how i fended it off-
In both games I built pylon on 9 and scouted with the same probe. I continued with standard build even when I found he's proxying -> chrono boosting nexus, building probes, gateway on 13, then assimilator. First difference is not chrono boosting on 14, but saving it. Right when my gateway finished I started building zealot and chrono boosted.
In the first game on Blistering sands my opponent built barracks on 9 and by the time his first reaper came into my base, my zealot was ready. While making cyber core I chrono boost another zealot so I have 2 zealots before he comes with 2nd reaper to my base. Now I don't know if it's mistake, but he tried to kill those two zealots while building marauders. He eventually managed to take those zealots down, but they damaged those reapers a bit and more importantly my stalker popped from gateway right after lots died (there's the important point of saving chrono at 14). Stalker > 2 reapers so he waited for marauder and came to my base, but I had already 2 stalkers and from then it was pretty much gg.
Second game was on Steppes of war and I smelled something fishy right when he asked "from" out of nowhere lol. He built rax on 8, so his reaper was in my base 6-8 seconds before my zealot popped, he killed it, but was unable to do any other damage, then he killed the second one and tried to take cybernetics down, but my stalker popped in time and with 3rd reaper coming he rage quit.
So yeah, I don't find this rush hard to counter, but maybe it's because I didn't play against someone with jaedong micro who could kill X workers while dodging my zealots.
On April 17 2010 23:47 -orb- wrote: You didn't watch the replay
On April 17 2010 23:51 BentoBox wrote: Hint: The reaper got in his base at the 3 minute mark.
I did watch the replay, that's why I suggest to scout with 9 probe. His reaper got in base at the same time as in my second game, but because I scouted with 9 probe I went zealot first and chrono boosted immediately so my lot was 10 seconds faster than your. I can upload the replay if you are interested, but as I said, I'm only top gold, not platinum, so what do I know.
Scouting with 9 probe doesn't damage your economy much and is very good for harassing.
On April 17 2010 23:51 BentoBox wrote: Hint: The reaper got in his base at the 3 minute mark.
I did watch the replay, that's why I suggest to scout with 9 probe. His reaper got in base at the same time as in my second game, but because I scouted with 9 probe I went zealot first and chrono boosted immediately so my lot was 10 seconds faster than your. I can upload the replay if you are interested, but as I said, I'm only top gold, not platinum, so what do I know.
Scouting with 9 probe doesn't damage your economy much and is very good for harassing.
but you built it AFTER cyber core at 3:03, while I built it BEFORE core at 2:54.
Well I wrote before that getting stalker is key, but giving him 10 extra seconds to kill your probes is imho worse than getting stalkers 10 seconds later.
I'd still like to point out that it's 200 min lost to his 50 min 50 gas (although if he goes for 3 reaps its 150min 150gas but at this point he's one shotting probes)
You also assume he is shooting the chasing zealots and not raping your drones who are on gas, which is what a smart player would do. No gas = no ranged units for the toss. Once the 100 min 100 gas reaper upgrade comes out there's no way in hell you can do anything until you get zealot charge (and oh wait that's a T2 building which costs gas and another upgrade with more gas!)
No smart reaper harass will allow you to put probes on gas. Now, if the toss gets the assimilator up super early in anticipation of this he still might not have the 50gas in time for the reaper waltzing in and killing gas workers. On top of this you're sacrificing a lot of early mineral gain.
It's just a lot of sacrifice the toss player has to make in comparison to a small amount of sacrifice a terran makes for reaper harass.
On April 18 2010 00:16 ondik wrote: but you built it AFTER cyber core at 3:03, while I built it BEFORE core at 2:54.
Well I wrote before that getting stalker is key, but giving him 10 extra seconds to kill your probes is imho worse than getting stalkers 10 seconds later.
He proxies way further from your base than he has to and his reaper micro is GOD AWFUL
Also you have a much easier time on that map due to the mineral field placement and the lack of cliff behind the minerals that the reapers can go up and down
THEN HE SPENDS 13 SECONDS SHOOTING YOUR CYBER CORE INSTEAD OF PROBES FFS
Don't post replays pretending like you've figured out how to hold off the rush when you only won because your opponent is mentally retarded please.
You're acting like building 2 zealots first won you the game. It didn't. Your opponent's lack of skill or a brain won you the game.
God no wonder all you idiots keep replying to the thread like "just build a zealot and you can hold it off ez"
Apparently all the gold and below terrans don't know how to right click their reapers to move to the probes instead of attacking buildings so you guys think the rush is easy to hold off.
-the protoss build in the game was aimed for a econmic optimum with constant probe production, giving how the match up works I dont think its a bad idea to cut 1 probe out for the faster gateway/core. -2th gas was greedy play without intel of the terran base so protoss spend extra on this and especialy in rush/proxy games every single little bit of money counts (this can make up for the probe you cut earlyer). -Pylon the mineralback imo so its a little bit harder for the very first reaper to dance behind the mineral line, that lost you so much money if you carefully rewatch..
On April 18 2010 00:51 ondik wrote: ye, sure, I forgot you know best and average terran would be able to kill second zealot and all my probes before stalker comes. gl
You're a fuckin' idiot. He clearly points out that the replay you posted was useless. NO an avg terran wouldn't be able to do that... a SKILLED terran would be able to rape ALL your probes while leaving your zealots and POSSIBLY a stalker building.
I tried to be calm but you're just trash. Guess who orb and other top protoss players face at the top level? SKILLED terrans who know how to micro their reapers to the back of a mineral line and a-move. 13 seconds attacking the cyber core = at minimum 4/5 dead probes with proper micro.
Granted I have only read a few pages of this thread I wanted to chime in my concern against this as I have also lost lots of games because I get a reaper in my base by the time I start or just started my stalker even when I do 8p 10g or 11g with core the instance gate finishes. Good Terrans I have noticed also usually start a bunker in there somewhere so I end up having to pull pretty much all my probes to both chase the reaper and stop the bunker from finishing. If I actually manage to survive the rush I am usually at a really low probecount and cant stop his maruders that usually comes afterward.
Honestly I am at sort of a loss of ideas how to deal with this, I mean even when I scout that he is proxying there really ain`t anything I can do unless I am lucky and actually find the rax before it finishes. I guess cutting probes to get both the core and a zeal once the gate finishes could work or start going 7p 9g or something, but this will leave you in a terrible economic shape vs any normal non rush Terran builds and the zeal don`t really stop the reaper from raping probes anyway, sure you will lose fewer, but it will probably even out since you are cutting probes a lot anyway. In conclusion it seems really hard to stop a well performed reaper rush in my eyes at least.
summary: (only regards to first rep) 1st early reaper isn't the problem, neither is your first stalker being late. because that game.. you were sill WAY a head in income/miners the whole time. The problem point is when you lost 80% of your probes when 3 reapers attacked together, when you could have 2 stalkers instead of 1.
Based on that 1st rep, there is no way for toss to do a standard build (which they should) and have stalker out early enough. But this isn't too unbalanced since terran is mining from just 5 scvs for that build. Your first stalk chased away 2 reapers, and while those reapers are gone, you are still way ahead in terms of probe count/income despite the losses, but you didn't immediately use the resources to build another stalker, you instead building one and queued another probe (using boost on your nexus). so when the 3rd reaper joined the other two, you still on one stalker when you could have 2. that's about all i can see for now. You did a good job of fighting first reaper off with some probes and running them as necessary, just need to remember for the first few min terran only has 5 scvs on minerals. So the problem is not getting one on time for the first reaper, it's to stop the 3 reaper group from mass owning your probes.
just checked rep again: at 4:20 you can boost and start another stalker if you didn't build 2nd gas (even earlier if you didn't build that 1 probe). that would help you against those 3 reaper that came at 4:55 =/ You won't lose nearly as much probes this way. Also the second you scouted his base, you should be focusing on more stalker, why did you build another gas? It's not his first/2nd reaper that is the problem, you chased those away and still ahead in miners/income (was ahead the whole time). It's that you are still on 1 stalker when he had 3 reapers..when you could've had 2.
but ye, that reaper build looks op.. reminiscent of a 5pool. Just to mention that the map in question has really long ground distance. on a regular map or small map, terran can probably send scv out at 6 to 8, have more scvs mining and achieve reaper at a similar rushing timing. Needs re-balance imo. I'm curious to see what would happen if you had 2 stalker out. This is just something you could have done better, I just don't see a way to directly counter the reaper build.
It's almost guaranteed to be completely worthless suggestion, but could you just take a thirty second hit of not-mining time and hide the probes until the stalker comes out? (Obviously not an ideal solution.)
On April 17 2010 20:24 Wilko wrote: Go 11 Gate with 8,5 Nexus-Boost There is only a small eco-loss and you should be able to defend it
no
why
no as in you won't be able to defend it and it won't make a difference
Due to the faster gate u can buy time with probes+zealot untill your stalker pops out You will only lose 3-4 probes, which leads to an even worker-count again, which isn't optimal, but acceptable It worked vs Lucifron and TheLittleOne and i'm pretty sure they executed it nearly perfectly
But i don't have a problem, if u prove me wrong So if u have a replay, which shows that this opening doesn't work against it, post it plz (sry, if i don't believe in common game-knowledge)
I think there's a misconception several people have, which is the reason that -orb- is so upset(or at least how I assume some people say they 'fended it off' with zealots, or something like that). Prior to the last few games I just played, I'd encountered "reaper rushes" that I thought were being done by good players; somehow, though, I managed to defend against it. I always had my stalker out in time. The problem is, upon checking the replays, they had always built their barracks at their ramp and just waypointed from there. That's a waste of time Now, having just faced the cheese three times in a row, I feel comfortable adding my rage with -orb-'s. The fast reapers are being created by a barracks near your spawn and, really, there simply isn't much time to react: your zealot is a joke, and "pulling probes" doesn't actually work(and god forbid somebody recommend cannons again). You have to suck it up and go for the stalker which, really, doesn't seem to be particularly fair. The terran will have gained a fairly good advantage at this point and can then transition into something more dangerous down the line.
This does not seem to be a strategy that is particularly fair for the toss and it requires, essentially, a probe pulled off immediately to scout the opponent and a pylon being warped in at far too early a junction to be viable later on(assuming you've built well to deal with the rush) It is simply a matter of math, and I do not think it has been addressed fairly or reasonably in this thread. -orb- has his share of nerd rage, but I think it's justified here(despite what I previously had thought).
I didn't read the thread, but how are zergs handling a fast proxy reaper rush on 2 player maps? I'm wondering if I should be opening overpool with the extractor trick even against terran on a big map like desert oasis. I played a game today where I noticed terran opening up proxy rax but I was able to scout it perfectly with my first ov just barely I think without him seeing me and I was able to overpool extractor trick open and easily won the game. If I went 15 hatch 14 pool which I would normally do I think I would have lost every time.
I used some time to read all this topic and, im completely agree with orb, what a bunch of stupid suggestions... Im a protoss player as well, and I tryed with one comrade ways to stop that , and without an "god imagination" its impossible to face it atm with and ok BO.
While not saying it's balanced at all, because I don't believe it is, it's not "impossible" to counter. People really need to try just going 10 gateway, and then using probe/zealot micro to fight it off. The most you should lose will be 2 or 3 probes.
On April 18 2010 10:29 RoboFerret wrote: While not saying it's balanced at all, because I don't believe it is, it's not "impossible" to counter. People really need to try just going 10 gateway, and then using probe/zealot micro to fight it off. The most you should lose will be 2 or 3 probes.
Have you A) bothered to read ANY of this thread? B) ever TRIED to do what you suggest? its like saying you will never lose more than a few lings/drones vs a slow vulture. people have tried 10 gate, they have been cutting probes all over the place to try to get stalker out in time. esp when they build a proxy bunker, which forces you to attack that and let the reaper pick off units. Also, even if it is possible to hold off, do you terrans really think that saying a toss MUST cut large numbers of probes to rush early stalker every game or risk auto-loss is fair?
If a toss 10gate 13 gas 15 cyber, isn't the probe ~3 at most? Take 5 probes and click past the reaper until you can surround him. If he doesn't have 3 probe kills by the time your stalker comes out, isn't he behind?
So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
On April 03 2010 02:54 AltCtrlDel wrote: The Zealots should have a burst sprint ability (With cool down timer, not lasting too long) from the beginning to balance it out in this rush scenario or any .. just enough to track down a Reaper and at least combat it .. (Then if you wanted to after then "research" the ability that it currently has in the game) Reaper could micro skillfully to try and battle 2 or 3 Zeal's off which would be fair. <-- My 2 cents.. =X
no they shouldn't. Their damage output and charge are already good enough. oh no, a reaper, which costs gas and takes a long time to build, can beat a zealot. wow. NO WAY.
although i like the sprint idea on the zealots. if you give marines some kind of 100+ damage bazooka and the ability to blink.
So yea, did anyone else just watch Tasteless v Loner? I honestly don't understand whats left to talk about in this topic other than "it is cheesy." I also wonder how many people have actually watched a reaper cheese replay and not just assume it is "normal reaper timing" and not "super fast reaper timing."
Avoiding to talk about some key points, like 8 supply proxy rax and decent gas timing, is silly.
After testing it out on a few T and P players, this looks to me like the early brood war 4 pool rush, which was nearly undefendable.
I think boosting tech lab build time by 5 seconds (which it should be anyway) would bring this down to the current level of 4 pool, making it more all in (so players wont abuse it) and more defendable.
On April 18 2010 12:56 LONG_PTR wrote: So yea, did anyone else just watch Tasteless v Loner? I honestly don't understand whats left to talk about in this topic other than "it is cheesy." I also wonder how many people have actually watched a reaper cheese replay and not just assume it is "normal reaper timing" and not "super fast reaper timing."
Avoiding to talk about some key points, like 8 supply proxy rax and decent gas timing, is silly.
one guy did exactly them same thing to me as Loner did to tasteless just now and its can only be block if you hv ur cyber at 15 b4 the 2nd pylon and it requires massive micro to survive b4 the stalker comes out... if you cant spot that early, you r doom!
On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote: So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Sentry out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
This would leave you waaaaaay behind.
8 Raxing doesn't leave the terran that far behind because of the mule mechanic, whereas if you completely stop mining for that entire time you will be soooooooo far behind
Why would u pull all the probes? you only need enough to surround the reaper. 5-6 would be max. As long as you make his reaper move instead of fire, you can limit your probe losses.
I 15 cyber 17 pylon. Why is it so bad to cyber at 15?
WARNING: The following is theorycraft so if you're only willing to consider things that have been test in-game stop reading
I'll look at what I believe is the most effective reaper attack possible and try to come up with a generic start build that can tolerate it without gimping the toss severely if there was in fact no reaper rush.
First, off I'm going to assume that the opponent has perfect micro. That is, zealots can't touch a reaper and probes can't surround it.
Second, I'm going to consider the fastest reaper build I know to exist which is, 0:37 rax 0:50 refinery 1:38 tech lab 2:04 reaper 2:44 reaper finish 3:15 earliest possible for reaper to be in toss base (Note: 3:20 or a few seconds later will be the case on most maps)
Third, lets say that every 6 seconds that the reaper is in the toss base the toss player looses a probe. This may seem a bit high but I'm assuming that the toss player also has perfect micro and will be pulling the probe under fire from mining and running it away from the reaper. (Note: prior to upgrade reapers and workers have equal speed.)
Here's what I suggest for the toss start build: (Note: I'm not using the food based build format since I don't think its specific enough)
(By now you should have scouted if he is rushing or not and can deviate from this if rush indicators not seen)
train zealot chrono boost gate way (on completion send zealot towards terran base ignoring reaper, should stall the terran and is necessary in case terran switched to marauder)
(I expect scout probe to have died trying to be annoying) train probe, count: 14
continue training probes to replace those that will die but don't supply block the stalker
[reaper to be in toss base 3:15]
train stalker [expected start time 3:20] chrono boost gate way after 20 seconds chrono boost gate way again stalker finished 3:52
train another stalker
expected probe losses 6-7
Terran will likely have 8-9 scv's and orbital command. Note: Terran will need to deal with zealot, so can't just power after make only 1 reaper. Toss should have 11-12 probes
End result is at least comparable economic shape.
I found that a normal 12 gate gets the stalker out at about 15 seconds later, 11 gate about 10 seconds later.
Any way good luck to those trying to beat reaper rush I'd say toss can emerge at least close to even in this extreme case so it isn't truly broken.
Note: I haven't considered other reaper timing since I assume they wouldn't be fast enough to be effective.
I wathed orbs stream once and he complained that marines were way way way overpowred lmfao. delete thread plx, this is only a problem on small 2player maps and you should be expecting it there, micro probes/zlot better and terran has to micro in your base+at home perfectly to draw any sort of advantage from this.
Tip, dont let him build a bunker behind your probeline while watching idly as it finishes. simply saying "OMG MULE MECHANIC" as a counter-argument to the terran behind severely behind due to cutting scvs for a long time is retarded...as I suspect you are.
On April 18 2010 14:05 Equalizer wrote: WARNING: The following is theorycraft so if you're only willing to consider things that have been test in-game stop reading
I'll look at what I believe is the most effective reaper attack possible and try to come up with a generic start build that can tolerate it without gimping the toss severely if there was in fact no reaper rush.
First, off I'm going to assume that the opponent has perfect micro. That is, zealots can't touch a reaper and probes can't surround it.
Second, I'm going to consider the fastest reaper build I know to exist which is, 0:37 rax 0:50 refinery 1:38 tech lab 2:04 reaper 2:44 reaper finish 3:15 earliest possible for reaper to be in toss base (Note: 3:20 or a few seconds later will be the case on most maps)
Third, lets say that every 6 seconds that the reaper is in the toss base the toss player looses a probe. This may seem a bit high but I'm assuming that the toss player also has perfect micro and will be pulling the probe under fire from mining and running it away from the reaper. (Note: prior to upgrade reapers and workers have equal speed.)
Here's what I suggest for the toss start build: (Note: I'm not using the food based build format since I don't think its specific enough)
(By now you should have scouted if he is rushing or not and can deviate from this if rush indicators not seen)
train zealot chrono boost gate way (on completion send zealot towards terran base ignoring reaper, should stall the terran and is necessary in case terran switched to marauder)
(I expect scout probe to have died trying to be annoying) train probe, count: 14
continue training probes to replace those that will die but don't supply block the stalker
[reaper to be in toss base 3:15]
train stalker [expected start time 3:20] chrono boost gate way after 20 seconds chrono boost gate way again stalker finished 3:52
train another stalker
expected probe losses 6-7
Terran will likely have 8-9 scv's and orbital command. Note: Terran will need to deal with zealot, so can't just power after make only 1 reaper. Toss should have 11-12 probes
End result is at least comparable economic shape.
I found that a normal 12 gate gets the stalker out at about 15 seconds later, 11 gate about 10 seconds later.
Any way good luck to those trying to beat reaper rush I'd say toss can emerge at least close to even in this extreme case so it isn't truly broken.
Note: I haven't considered other reaper timing since I assume they wouldn't be fast enough to be effective.
If you're doing this build its obviously going to be a proxy rax, so reaper will be in the base BEFORE 3 minutes, ie another 4ish probes dead assuming perfect micro. plus you dont seem to understand that a terran with equal or even more scv's has a HUGE eco advantage vs a toss because of the mule.
On April 18 2010 14:39 arnold(soTa) wrote: I wathed orbs stream once and he complained that marines were way way way overpowred lmfao. delete thread plx, this is only a problem on small 2player maps and you should be expecting it there, micro probes/zlot better and terran has to micro in your base+at home perfectly to draw any sort of advantage from this.
Tip, dont let him build a bunker behind your probeline while watching idly as it finishes. simply saying "OMG MULE MECHANIC" as a counter-argument to the terran behind severely behind due to cutting scvs for a long time is retarded...as I suspect you are.
dude you are retarded and in need of a ban. you're argument is just as retarded when you say its fine that the toss just sacrifices all semblance of an economy automatically on every two player map just so they have a chance to not auto-die to this rush. plus his response to the bunker was smarter than yours, he just used his zeal to kill the scv and cancel its construction rather than your stupid idea of pulling probes to kill it, or did you bother to watch the replay he posted? plus WTF do you think the terran has to do at home? hotkey the CC to 1, racks to 2, reaper to 3. with automine every 20 seconds click 1, hit hotkey for scv, hit 2 hit hotkey for reaper, go back to micro vs slower melee units
On April 18 2010 14:39 arnold(soTa) wrote: I wathed orbs stream once and he complained that marines were way way way overpowred lmfao. delete thread plx, this is only a problem on small 2player maps and you should be expecting it there, micro probes/zlot better and terran has to micro in your base+at home perfectly to draw any sort of advantage from this.
Tip, dont let him build a bunker behind your probeline while watching idly as it finishes. simply saying "OMG MULE MECHANIC" as a counter-argument to the terran behind severely behind due to cutting scvs for a long time is retarded...as I suspect you are.
Aren't you contradicting yourself by saying that you need to pull probes off the minerals, giving protoss a loss of minerals; and then you're saying mules don't put terran ahead when protoss has probes off the mineral field.
Mules aren't broken at all, and neither are marines; that is irrelevant. But usually what follows reaper harass is marauder all ins with 2-3 barracks. "Micro"-ed probes require the reaper to not run away, allowing himself to be surrounded. Just having probes chase the reaper is good enough to give terran a lead. Reapers will rape a small number of probes. Reapers also rape zealots because zealots are too slow to keep up. Using a large number of probes to chase the reaper just sets you back way too much, but it will drive off the reaper(s) at a high cost.
Of course, then come in the marauders. Those small inconveniences add up, they do not allow you to get enough to defend with. Zealots to chase reapers away is a little silly. Reapers do bonus damage against light, and having that many zealots to begin with is just blocking your ability to tech up, or do anything else.
On a map like desert oasis where you have half the enemy's base as a cliff to retreat with; reapers seem way too cheesy. But on maps where mineral lines don't have a cliff behind them, it could probably be fought off with probes surrounding the reaper if the reaper tries to go behind the mineral lines. But why would the reaper do that and go out of his way to back himself against a wall? Decent reaper harass just always has the reaper in a decent sensible spot, plus SCVs were cut to get those reapers there very early.
There might be a way to fight this off, sure. But I don't really see any valid solutions other than "you all are retards, here is a link to the tampax website." It is sad to see someone actually do that to orb when orb is taking low level replays and actually trying to help the low level community. I can't say I have the right to say this, but damn, where is the respect for people trying to do good?
Again, the problem seems to be not in the actual units, but in map design.
Small maps + long cliffs = extremely hard for P to defend (or T actually, this reaper rush screws another terran even worse than it does a protoss), but once retarded maps like desert oasis get phased out by community (or kespa or blizzard) made balanced maps, this rush will become less and less viable.
I really want to see what blizzard changes in the next patch before casting judgment about this thing being imba.
On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote: So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote: So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
Damn that is a hot idea. To recap, looks like you take 4-5 probes to force the reaper to retreat, and if the probe takes damage, then send it back while the other probes keep charging. From the looks of it, you're cutting an equal number of workers, and probably a lot less. Once that stalker gets out, woo.
Sound about right? Well, lets hope this ends terran early reaper harass since you would come out on top once you get a stalker out.
On April 18 2010 14:05 Equalizer wrote: WARNING: The following is theorycraft so if you're only willing to consider things that have been test in-game stop reading
I'll look at what I believe is the most effective reaper attack possible and try to come up with a generic start build that can tolerate it without gimping the toss severely if there was in fact no reaper rush.
First, off I'm going to assume that the opponent has perfect micro. That is, zealots can't touch a reaper and probes can't surround it.
Second, I'm going to consider the fastest reaper build I know to exist which is, 0:37 rax 0:50 refinery 1:38 tech lab 2:04 reaper 2:44 reaper finish 3:15 earliest possible for reaper to be in toss base (Note: 3:20 or a few seconds later will be the case on most maps)
Third, lets say that every 6 seconds that the reaper is in the toss base the toss player looses a probe. This may seem a bit high but I'm assuming that the toss player also has perfect micro and will be pulling the probe under fire from mining and running it away from the reaper. (Note: prior to upgrade reapers and workers have equal speed.)
Here's what I suggest for the toss start build: (Note: I'm not using the food based build format since I don't think its specific enough)
(By now you should have scouted if he is rushing or not and can deviate from this if rush indicators not seen)
train zealot chrono boost gate way (on completion send zealot towards terran base ignoring reaper, should stall the terran and is necessary in case terran switched to marauder)
(I expect scout probe to have died trying to be annoying) train probe, count: 14
continue training probes to replace those that will die but don't supply block the stalker
[reaper to be in toss base 3:15]
train stalker [expected start time 3:20] chrono boost gate way after 20 seconds chrono boost gate way again stalker finished 3:52
train another stalker
expected probe losses 6-7
Terran will likely have 8-9 scv's and orbital command. Note: Terran will need to deal with zealot, so can't just power after make only 1 reaper. Toss should have 11-12 probes
End result is at least comparable economic shape.
I found that a normal 12 gate gets the stalker out at about 15 seconds later, 11 gate about 10 seconds later.
Any way good luck to those trying to beat reaper rush I'd say toss can emerge at least close to even in this extreme case so it isn't truly broken.
Note: I haven't considered other reaper timing since I assume they wouldn't be fast enough to be effective.
If you're doing this build its obviously going to be a proxy rax, so reaper will be in the base BEFORE 3 minutes, ie another 4ish probes dead assuming perfect micro. plus you dont seem to understand that a terran with equal or even more scv's has a HUGE eco advantage vs a toss because of the mule.
On April 18 2010 14:39 arnold(soTa) wrote: I wathed orbs stream once and he complained that marines were way way way overpowred lmfao. delete thread plx, this is only a problem on small 2player maps and you should be expecting it there, micro probes/zlot better and terran has to micro in your base+at home perfectly to draw any sort of advantage from this.
Tip, dont let him build a bunker behind your probeline while watching idly as it finishes. simply saying "OMG MULE MECHANIC" as a counter-argument to the terran behind severely behind due to cutting scvs for a long time is retarded...as I suspect you are.
dude you are retarded and in need of a ban. you're argument is just as retarded when you say its fine that the toss just sacrifices all semblance of an economy automatically on every two player map just so they have a chance to not auto-die to this rush. plus his response to the bunker was smarter than yours, he just used his zeal to kill the scv and cancel its construction rather than your stupid idea of pulling probes to kill it, or did you bother to watch the replay he posted? plus WTF do you think the terran has to do at home? hotkey the CC to 1, racks to 2, reaper to 3. with automine every 20 seconds click 1, hit hotkey for scv, hit 2 hit hotkey for reaper, go back to micro vs slower melee units
rofl ur a joke..yes I have watched the replay (not that I need to, I unlike you can execute both the cheesereaper rush and the defence), orb clearly fucked up...simply as that. what do you think I meant by using probes on bunker? maybe I shuold have made it clearer rofl, just thought ppl on this site had some brains, ofc target the scv........ just because you are a copperleaguer dont asume everyone else is :D This is not hard to stop. true story. Orb just whinges on and on about anything that kills him, and you fanboys just eat it up. "OH LOOK MY RACE _IS_ Underpowred, here is the proof" simple instructions for terran macro, thnx for the help roflcompstomp. Not like the P micro is harder...infact its easier if you calm down and approach it without your nerdrage.
You're either a troll or too young to be on this site.
But I like nony's idea, kinda micro heavy but that's rushing, I'm gonna try it out with a friend later.
Edit: also, I watched the desert replay again, and I just keep seeing more things you do wrong, orb. First of all, throughout the game, from when the first reaper shows, you know you're being rushed, OK? You then make 1 stalker while allowing a couple probes to be killed from what seems to be pure negligence, and then after you've chased off the reapers you put the stalker facing the base entrance. You know there are 2-3 reapers hiding, with a cliff right by your probes, how about putting the stalker by the probes? And why is it that you always have 2, sometimes even 3 probes queued up while not making anything from your gateway? You know you're being rushed, you know that means the terran economy is bad, why don't you ease on probe chronoing for a second and beat off the rush? No offense, but it just seems like you're not even trying.
All that aside, have you tried sending a zeal to the enemy base? You'd get 2 critical scv kills or a comlete mining halt before he even gets a reaper back there, and then the pressure is off.
On April 18 2010 17:40 Osmoses wrote: But I like nony's idea, kinda micro heavy but that's rushing, I'm gonna try it out with a friend later.
That's not some random Idea Nony has concocted magically, that's pretty much what everyone has been saying the last 2 weeks (I'm sure I said it like 3 times in this thread), you guys just don't want to listen, and I'm sure Nony waited until now to post because it's common sense and didn't think he had to say anything.
But it's too late, the damage has been done and we can expect a significant tech lab nerf (or something similar) next week because of the MASS amount of threads on the bnet forums about it.
I am T and have huge problems against 9 Reaper on small maps with more then one entry cliff. Its even hard to block the first reaper with two marines and decent micro and if they pile up the loss is incoming. Do you build a bunker behind your mineral line(doesn't protect all workers) or is there any other way to safely shield them off?
On April 18 2010 17:40 Osmoses wrote: But I like nony's idea, kinda micro heavy but that's rushing, I'm gonna try it out with a friend later.
That's not some random Idea Nony has concocted magically, that's pretty much what everyone has been saying the last 2 weeks (I'm sure I said it like 3 times in this thread), you guys just don't want to listen, and I'm sure Nony waited until now to post because it's common sense and didn't think he had to say anything.
But it's too late, the damage has been done and we can expect a significant tech lab nerf (or something similar) next week because of the MASS amount of threads on the bnet forums about it.
this lol everytime i do this rush most good tosses defend it that way
On April 18 2010 18:11 Lythis wrote: I am T and have huge problems against 9 Reaper on small maps with more then one entry cliff. Its even hard to block the first reaper with two marines and decent micro and if they pile up the loss is incoming. Do you build a bunker behind your mineral line(doesn't protect all workers) or is there any other way to safely shield them off?
You need to get a marauder out asap, not a bunker.
If you don't scout this and 11 rax like usual, it's almost autoloss, 12 rax - guaranteed autoloss.
Main problem of this rush was never P or Z, it was mirror MUs, especially after SCV hp and marauder nerf.
On April 18 2010 18:11 Lythis wrote: I am T and have huge problems against 9 Reaper on small maps with more then one entry cliff. Its even hard to block the first reaper with two marines and decent micro and if they pile up the loss is incoming. Do you build a bunker behind your mineral line(doesn't protect all workers) or is there any other way to safely shield them off?
You need to get a marauder out asap, not a bunker.
If you don't scout this and 11 rax like usual, it's almost autoloss, 12 rax - guaranteed autoloss.
Main problem of this rush was never P or Z, it was mirror MUs, especially after SCV hp and marauder nerf.
But normally u scout after u start building the rax so I dont see how you can have a bigger chance in finding he's proxy that and react to it. Or are you saying to scout before the rax? Maruders takes so long time to build, seems like he can get alot of scv before ur first one is out.
On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote: So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
to everyone: please see this game as an example of the type of micro that NonY is talking about.
I play Terran and have a lot of trouble with the reaper cheese. Since bunkers are salvageable, I've been playing around with the idea of putting up a bunker near my mineral line by default when playing against other terrans. My normal build is 10sup 12 rax 13 sup for the walloff, but against another terran you don't really need the wall usually except for denying scouting, so building a bunker on 13 doesn't set you back too much and it can be salvaged as soon as the threat of reaper cheese is gone.
I'm only in gold, though, so the people I play against are either 1) bad at micro, 2) good at micro but incapable of multitasking/continuing to macro while they micro. Or they just plain aren't doing it right, which is another possibility...
Have any other T's experimented with adding an early bunker to their TvT BO and then salvaging it once you have enough to defend? I'm not playing at a very high level so I can't really say whether it's a good or bad idea.
On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote: So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
sir, i tried it and i had even more trouble when the second one come in the first should have 1 kills i assume)... the only thing i hvnt tried is that 15 cy => stalker => kill reapers => zealots => charges => all in since zea > marauder
On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote: So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
to everyone: please see this game as an example of the type of micro that NonY is talking about.
Wish the protoss didn't lose this one, but yea, thats a decent example I guess.
On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote: So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
sir, i tried it and i had even more trouble when the second one come in the first should have 1 kills i assume)... the only thing i hvnt tried is that 15 cy => stalker => kill reapers => zealots => charges => all in since zea > marauder
First time I tried it, it worked out half way until the second reaper. But the next few times, it actually worked out. Seems like a hit and miss, some people just can't manage their reapers while others seem unfazed (that is, when their second reaper comes out). Though, can't have everyone give the answers for every step of the game for us. Tried some weird stuff on that second reaper, like two groups of probes, and that hilariously got me to my stalker. It did hit my mining time by a bit, but once my stalker was out, I got my sentry asap and force fielded my ramp for any marauders afterwards.
Dunno, still further than I've managed to get before.
Instead of going for the stalker try, going for some zealots instead and try microing around with it and some probes. Chances are if he went for such a fast reaper, his orbital command would be a little later, so you can afford to lose some probes in that sense. My advice would be to just build a nice sim city around your base. Apart from this you gotta take into account the spawn positions, what if he scouts you late? Then his timing will obviously be later.
Overall just try the zealot strategy or rush to the stalker as fast as you can, remember if you scout him early enough you can also use your probe to attack his scv building the barracks which can delay it a little.
On April 17 2010 20:35 Skyze wrote: I rush my stalker asap, but if I scout and see he proxied his rax (ie faster reaper outing) I will build one zeal while my core is being built, to at least chase abit so the reaper cant just reign free on my probes. Sure it puts your stalker and economy behind abit, but it is worth it to possibly only lose 1-2 probes instead of 4-5.
Also, if I am feeling extremely vunerable to a reaper rush from the start (ie the player is a known cheeser, a randomer or certain maps) - I make sure to pylon on 8, gate on 9, core 10. It gives me a few extra seconds for that stalker to come faster, at the cost of economy. But better safe than sorry in certain situations.
I apologize in advance for being so god damn bad manner to all you dumb fucks in my thread, but holy fucking shit.
It's like an endless fucking stream of dumb fucking morons that come into the thread spewing their fucking idiocy all over the place. Read the fucking OP, watch the fucking replay, or get the fuck out I don't give a shit what you have to say.
What you've said has been said already and it doesn't fucking work if you had read the thread at all, so please kill yourself for being so god damn stupid.
I'm so tired of 90% of the replies to topics these days being from retards that don't even read the OP let alone even a fraction of the rest of the thread. You're not welcome
yeah let's put this guy's stream on the calendar. he seems like a positive influence in the community.
On April 22 2010 18:33 klez.gen wrote: bump for help, I can't make a thread but this one is so huge most people are probably not checking it anymore, heh
Gosh where to begin^^; If you watch the replay yourself, he started his rax on 6, never had more than 10 probes and never had minerals to get his orbital command. In other words, if you had killed that one reaper, bunker or not, he would have had no chance of coming back. To be honest his build was utter garbage and not even close to a good "fast reaper" build order that people do, but here's why you lost anyways:
-don't go double gate against terran, go gate core and get a fast stalker. I realize this was a 2v2 game and getting only one gateway is a bit scary, but as soon as you have a gateway and some gas you can get a sentry and block your ramp to be safe.
-if you don't want to place your gateways close to the ramp (in order to crate a choke) make sure you keep tabs on his scouting SCV. Also scout yourself, you could've seen the tech lab and expected a reaper. And once you did you could've guessed that the scouting scv that you never saw is building a bunker in your base somewhere.
-biggest issue: you completely and utterly stopped probe production.. that's like the ultimate no-no in starcraft. The only time you should stop producing probes is either if your build specifically calls for a short period of no-probing, or if you're on 3 fully saturated bases. In other words almost never =P. Until you learn how to build probes non-stop, quite frankly, no matter what people throw at you, you're going to lose.
Yes it is. A fast reaper can kill as many probe as he want while kiting your zealot, by the time your first Stalker is out he just killed so much probe he is nearly ahead with Mule and has just to get 2 marauder and he will roll over your 1-2 stalkers while your struggling to get you eco back up.
On April 19 2010 00:39 RoosterSamurai wrote: You don't always need stalkers. If you know he's getting reapers, and you stick a cannon behind your mineral line, you will be okay.
If you get a forge/cannon, I'm going to fast expand and just overrun you with marauders or marines.
Forge/cannon is a losing answer. Pulling 4-5 probes until your stalker comes out is the right one.
On April 13 2010 23:20 -orb- wrote: i love when people talk about supply count for probes as if the MULE doesn't exist
i love when people talk about MULE imbalance as if chronoboost doesn't exist...
/agreed with antimage that orb is just trolling this thread now since he can't exactly whine that its impossible to beat anymore, guess he learned how to do math or something..
somebody close thread please
On April 04 2010 05:04 sikatrix wrote: build a zealot and micro probes while you chrono your stalker. You seriously whining about this? good god
On April 05 2010 22:07 AllFear wrote: reapers need a buff
On April 13 2010 23:41 duckhunt wrote: yea... all you have to do is micro good and you will stop it, thx for question
These people seriously need a foot in the face. I thought the old strategy forums were frustrating at times, but I wouldn't want to moderate the growing SC2 strategy forums if you paid me in gold. For the love of banana juice, watch the bloody replay, check the actual timings (hint, just because a reaper shows up in your base early, DOES NOT mean that the build has been executed properly to match the timing seen in orb's replays. If your opponent happens to be a shit terran and can't execute a build order properly or can't execute kiting micro with a reaper vs probes/zealots, then that's a big circumstantial difference and whatever conclusion you drew from that game DOES NOT apply under circumstances where an opponent actually executes build order and micro correctly.
Now, if you want to step into a thread like this and spew out absurd statements like "learn2play!" or "na-uh, your race is MORE imba", then you're not addressing the problem at hand, you're just being a complete and utter swamp bridge troll.
Those timings are not that important, sending a few probes on first reaper solves the problem to a certain amount. When first stalker pops out, Reapers are in trouble and ineffective. Hit and Run with Reapers against Probes is much less effective than just shooting at them. Yes it will cost you some probes, however Terran has a weak economy as well and needs much more skill to continue his normal build than the Protoss does for the time those reapers are around in the base. Else they get surrouneded or just killed by probes.
I'm playing early reapers often in TvT and TvP and Protoss usually holds it off much more easily as Marines are anything else but strong against reapers. A stalker however clears the situation.
On April 23 2010 10:30 cyoz wrote: Didn't white-ra show today vs TLO how to handle it?
Not at all, nice try though.
1: TLO for some unknown reason didn't proxy his 7rax, nor did he even build it at the edge of his base. He had it in the middle of his base, and since they were at CROSS POSITIONS this makes a huge difference. Had he proxied in the middle of the map it would have been far more effective
2: He still killed 5 probes.
Imagine how much MORE effective it would have been had he proxied... I'd wager he would have gotten 8+ probes
On April 23 2010 10:30 cyoz wrote: Didn't white-ra show today vs TLO how to handle it?
Not at all, nice try though.
1: TLO for some unknown reason didn't proxy his 7rax, nor did he even build it at the edge of his base. He had it in the middle of his base, and since they were at CROSS POSITIONS this makes a huge difference. Had he proxied in the middle of the map it would have been far more effective
2: He still killed 5 probes.
Imagine how much MORE effective it would have been had he proxied... I'd wager he would have gotten 8+ probes
I think it's very possible that if TLO had proxied, the exchange would be about even.. maybe he would have killed 1 more probe than he cut SCVs, but this gets offset by the fact that he has a rax in the middle of the map and a sligh tech-disadvantage.
On April 22 2010 23:33 Mente wrote: I don't understand why people think reaper rush is OP. It really isn't... at all.
Check the Terran- A complete overview thread under the reaper section: those are 2 of the worst games i played that day and both were won EZ with fast reaps.
TVP 6 proxirax, refinary, then 2 reapers, after 2 reapers you make marauders, p is forced into making stalkers, marauders>stalkers. Is there anything a P can do v this?
On April 23 2010 22:53 wentelteef wrote: TVP 6 proxirax, refinary, then 2 reapers, after 2 reapers you make marauders, p is forced into making stalkers, marauders>stalkers. Is there anything a P can do v this?
The only thing I can offer is this. The most effective use of reapers is as a harassment unit. Ergo they will most likely be targeting your supply line. An early forge with a few early photon cannons could save the day. I am not gold or plat, so I bow to your greater play. Just offering my humble opinion. As for other races, spine crawler for zerg and bunker for terran really helps fighting this strat as well, in my opinion. With all that being said the best way to counter reapers is with the terran themselves, again my opinion.
Just a quick edit but I think it goes without saying. You'll want to place the defense either around your supply, or in a place that would cut off their route into your base, remember reapers can't fly only jump up cliff sides.
There really doesn't seem to be any possible counter for Protoss timing-wise other than super early scouting + cannons which will probably put you way behind and make you super vulnerable to marauder marine transition, probably better to just lose some probes while waiting for the stalker. Obviously Zealots can't do anything against a reaper with the most basic micro and stalkers take too long. Hopefully they do something to delay reapers.
I have found a slightly different Reaper -> marauder build to be effective.
9 Supply, 11 Rax, 11 gas, 13/14 OC/techlab (generally both go down as soon as rax is finished)
Get second gas while techlab is upgrading, when techlab is finished, begin Reaper Speed asap (begin first Reaper first). Get second Rax as soon as you have the minerals and a second supply as well. At this point you should be able to get 3 Reapers finished right as Reaper Speed is finishing. This allows you to pop workers/rines/lings in one volley and lots in 2 volleys - while having the speed to micro around stalkers and queens.
I can generally get quite a few kills this way while teching to 2 port banshees or getting more barracks for marauders. When executed perfectly it can land 3 marauders in their mineral line around the 6:15 mark while still giving you a decent enough way of defending yourself against most forms of cheese/early aggression.
On April 24 2010 04:12 Entropia wrote: I don't know if someone already proposed this:
make cliff jumping a research. Easy solution, it will increase the time for the reaper to get in your base and harder microing it.
Yeah I should work for Blizzard, I know :D
I hope this isn't a serious post. Without the ability to initially cliffjump, the timing window (i.e. the early game) where the Reaper is useful will be closed before that tech is available to them.
this thread just keeps coming back... i don't see one about 6 pool ling rush with 400 replies and a bump every 2 hours on it.. this "problem" is already solved with various different openings..
11 gate cyber chrono-zealot stalker, chase reaper around until stalker out 10 gate cyber chrono-stalker 9 gate cyber chrono-stalker if you are really feeling paranoid 8-gate cyber chrono-stalker.. 12 gate cyber chrono zealot chrono-stalker works pretty good too.. out of 7 or so games i've played vs this strat i've only lost one because i wasted chrono on probes instead of getting that stalker out...
On April 24 2010 04:12 Entropia wrote: I don't know if someone already proposed this:
make cliff jumping a research. Easy solution, it will increase the time for the reaper to get in your base and harder microing it.
Yeah I should work for Blizzard, I know :D
I hope this isn't a serious post. Without the ability to initially cliffjump, the timing window (i.e. the early game) where the Reaper is useful will be closed before that tech is available to them.
Yes it was serious. I my vision of the game reaper were supposed to be a harass early game unit, not a cheese unit.
On April 03 2010 02:40 -orb- wrote: EDIT: Please someone explain to me how to hold this off in this new replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?uzatmniw2nw
While this doesn't directly pertain to the issue at hand, anyone else getting problems trying to watch the newest replay? I can watch the older ones but this and a few recent ones don't seem to work. :I
It seems there is no way to stop this unless you specifically select at the start to choose a build that counters it. For example, fast expanding as terran, with good micro/build I can defend and survive. Against reapers they just come 20 seconds too soon, and it doesnt seem right that I should make a bunch of extra marines (which reapers fucking rape anyways) just on the possiblity of that build.
Reapers would be fine if they were delayed 20 seconds.
Just my 2 cents: When an early reaper jumps behind your mineral line, I always try to surround it with 5-6 probes before he goes on the "field" (I mean, you can surround him easier when he's close to a cliff). If I don't succeed, I take 4 probes and micro them as well as I can, making 2 of them chasing the reaper and 2 others anticipating his movement. Thus I can harm him, and make him run away to shoot my probes from a distance, which grants me time. I often lose 2, sometimes 3 probes to this early harass but that's not a great loss compared to the cost of the reaper. The real problems are coming AFTER that (switch to marauders, pushing with 4 or 5 of them, then switching to banshees which my dead stalkers can't really counter).
Early reaper builds are easy to repel, just as long as you micro your probes away from his reaper and draw him to the middle of your mineral line you can surround and kill that reaper. chrono boosting your stalker, then getting robo to get immortal (chrono boosted as well) to repel any pressure from marauder.
On April 26 2010 04:51 Johnranger-123 wrote: Early reaper builds are easy to repel, just as long as you micro your probes away from his reaper and draw him to the middle of your mineral line you can surround and kill that reaper. chrono boosting your stalker, then getting robo to get immortal (chrono boosted as well) to repel any pressure from marauder.
This only works if your opponent is either not paying attention or retarded. It would never happen that way in upper level games.
On April 26 2010 02:20 fusionsdf wrote:Reapers would be fine if they were delayed 20 seconds.
You need to be very careful with statements such as this. The Reaper's strength lies almost solely in the fact that it can perform its harassment before an opponent can retaliate. If you "fix" the Reaper rush by delaying it until the point where your opponent can repel it easily then the unit becomes almost useless in upper level games.
On April 26 2010 05:55 STS17 wrote: The Reaper's strength lies almost solely in the fact that it can perform its harassment before an opponent can retaliate. If you "fix" the Reaper rush by delaying it until the point where your opponent can repel it easily then the unit becomes almost useless in upper level games.
I think this is the short-sighted thinking that just isn't productive in beta. Reapers aren't useless after the 3 minute mark. They still demolish workers as well as structures in a heartbeat. Most players aren't going to load up on static defense if you don't open with reapers, so you are very easily capable of throwing a few reapers into his base while you attack him elsewhere. Not to mention they make exellent scouts and they can kite zealots and zerglings pre-speed upgrade.
Sure, 6supply reapers are scary, but 6 reapers in my base at any point is still scary. Regardless of wether or not i can make units to kill them: i have to actually kill them before they do major damage, and that's not easy when you aren't parked in your base.
Yeah reapers are pretty deadly. I've actually been thinking of throwing some into my mid-game to throw off an opponent and hope to pick off as many workers as possible.
I have no idea how to stop early reapers in Terran vs. Random and they happen to get Terran. Should I simply start not walling off anymore vs. Random players at all? Help is appreciated.
On April 27 2010 13:10 Umbrella wrote: I have no idea how to stop early reapers in Terran vs. Random and they happen to get Terran. Should I simply start not walling off anymore vs. Random players at all? Help is appreciated.
Make 2 marines if you aren't sure they aren't going reaper. Don't be afraid to make a few extra. Pull a couple scvs if you have to it's not the end of the world and rine + scv forces him to take a little extra damage when he stops to shoot.
On April 27 2010 13:10 Umbrella wrote: I have no idea how to stop early reapers in Terran vs. Random and they happen to get Terran. Should I simply start not walling off anymore vs. Random players at all? Help is appreciated.
Make 2 marines if you aren't sure they aren't going reaper. Don't be afraid to make a few extra. Pull a couple scvs if you have to it's not the end of the world and rine + scv forces him to take a little extra damage when he stops to shoot.
Hmm, well I'm talking about proxy rax reapers on 2 player maps so they come super fast and I wall off in case I'm facing a zerg or a protoss. I probably need to change my build order though, so what do you suggest I do? And when should I scout vs. random players?
On April 27 2010 13:10 Umbrella wrote: I have no idea how to stop early reapers in Terran vs. Random and they happen to get Terran. Should I simply start not walling off anymore vs. Random players at all? Help is appreciated.
Against random, and if they don't tell you your race, always make a couple marines early. They could ling rush you, or proxy gate (not really that common) or the common, super fast\proxy reaper. If none of those happen, you really aren't going to notice your build order messing up that much from two marines.
orb just look at this: 6/11 proxy reaper rush + bunker + rauder to counter the 1st stalker:
its not the best micro from toss side but it doesnt matter, its still undefendable
this isnt used by a lot of player right now because its not known enough... but i bet in couple of weeks everyone will be talking about this opening....
if you are a terran just try it, it doesnt require a lot of skill to do it. with perfect micro youll get 100% win against toss on most maps.
I agree with orb that the proxy reaper is a pain in the ass as the protoss cannot do anything until the stalker comes out. They should have a way for protoss to counter the reaper rush. Clani your W/L ratio is impressive but i think the protoss player also made a lot of mistakes, sending so many probes to kill one scv, and none chasing ur reaper, and worse of all building a zealot first.
On April 27 2010 22:00 Nitron wrote: I agree with orb that the proxy reaper is a pain in the ass as the protoss cannot do anything until the stalker comes out. They should have a way for protoss to counter the reaper rush. Clani your W/L ratio is impressive but i think the protoss player also made a lot of mistakes, sending so many probes to kill one scv, and none chasing ur reaper, and worse of all building a zealot first.
building zealot first is simply to try and delay the reaper from sitting there picking off probes so easily so you buy time to get the stalker out, and also to help kill at bunker they might put down. It doesnt set your stalker back at all so theres really no point in not doing it.
Most of the people who have reaper rushed me have never really done any damage, and i dont think it's AS game breaking as people in this thread are making it out to be... Although it is definitely very strong, as i think it should be.
edit: it looks like the protoss actually had his zealot a little late as it should finish in time to atleast kill the scv building the bunker.
On April 27 2010 14:44 j4vz wrote: orb just look at this: 6/11 proxy reaper rush + bunker + rauder to counter the 1st stalker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmRwF_ZhO4
its not the best micro from toss side but it doesnt matter, its still undefendable
this isnt used by a lot of player right now because its not known enough... but i bet in couple of weeks everyone will be talking about this opening....
if you are a terran just try it, it doesnt require a lot of skill to do it. with perfect micro youll get 100% win against toss on most maps.
ps: this isnt a troll and im not a noob im plat.
That toss was bad. All that showed is even though you did 6 rax it's still not fast enough to be as OP as orb and others claim. He could have EASILY defended that and then killed you.
On April 27 2010 13:10 Umbrella wrote: I have no idea how to stop early reapers in Terran vs. Random and they happen to get Terran. Should I simply start not walling off anymore vs. Random players at all? Help is appreciated.
Marines. Since you should be building a marine (or reaper) to start anyway, get one. If you see a reaper, save it, get a second one, go kill it. Go back to what you were doing. You should have two marines by the time a tech-lab and reaper finishes anyway, so this should be no issue.
On April 27 2010 14:44 j4vz wrote: orb just look at this: 6/11 proxy reaper rush + bunker + rauder to counter the 1st stalker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmRwF_ZhO4
its not the best micro from toss side but it doesnt matter, its still undefendable
this isnt used by a lot of player right now because its not known enough... but i bet in couple of weeks everyone will be talking about this opening....
if you are a terran just try it, it doesnt require a lot of skill to do it. with perfect micro youll get 100% win against toss on most maps.
ps: this isnt a troll and im not a noob im plat.
That toss was bad. All that showed is even though you did 6 rax it's still not fast enough to be as OP as orb and others claim. He could have EASILY defended that and then killed you.
+1. Last night I saw this game of Demuslim vs LiquidNazgul, were Nazgul showed off some great probe micro vs a fast reaper build and only lost 4 probes or something.
On April 27 2010 15:21 j4vz wrote: Terran clani.raq 1433 206 21 90.75%
FROM starcraftrankings.com
look at the winning percentage 90.75% 206 WIN 21 LOSS
SO now do believe me ?
Look up my stats OakHill.OakHill, I was 172-14 (92%) and gave him 13 of his losses, and he beat me twice because I tried to beat him going straight robo tech with no zealot or immortal.
On April 23 2010 22:53 wentelteef wrote: TVP 6 proxirax, refinary, then 2 reapers, after 2 reapers you make marauders, p is forced into making stalkers, marauders>stalkers. Is there anything a P can do v this?
Last patch? Probably not.
This patch? Definitly not.
First a stalker, then switch to sentries if he keeps making marauder, forcefield+guardianshield+sentryFF will pwn marauders.
On April 27 2010 23:35 chirievalord wrote: You cannot blockade the addon with a pylon... You do remember T structures can lift off don't you?
You do remember that you can cancel a pylon and build it again as he is trying to land do you? And you can just block it with your probe, as he will need to pull an scv to hunt your probe away, which costs him minerals and precious harrass time. The best thing to do is: >block addon with probe >build pylon as soon as your probe is almost dead >run probe around to regen shield, while forcing lift off >cancel pylon, block landing with your probe If you are able to pull this of, you will stall his harrass sooo much, it isn't even funny.
On April 27 2010 14:44 j4vz wrote: orb just look at this: 6/11 proxy reaper rush + bunker + rauder to counter the 1st stalker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmRwF_ZhO4
its not the best micro from toss side but it doesnt matter, its still undefendable
this isnt used by a lot of player right now because its not known enough... but i bet in couple of weeks everyone will be talking about this opening....
if you are a terran just try it, it doesnt require a lot of skill to do it. with perfect micro youll get 100% win against toss on most maps.
ps: this isnt a troll and im not a noob im plat.
That toss was bad. All that showed is even though you did 6 rax it's still not fast enough to be as OP as orb and others claim. He could have EASILY defended that and then killed you.
And that we only have your word on. How would he have defended well, without losing too much? building zealot and delay the stalker? stall with probes?
On April 27 2010 14:44 j4vz wrote: orb just look at this: 6/11 proxy reaper rush + bunker + rauder to counter the 1st stalker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmRwF_ZhO4
its not the best micro from toss side but it doesnt matter, its still undefendable
this isnt used by a lot of player right now because its not known enough... but i bet in couple of weeks everyone will be talking about this opening....
if you are a terran just try it, it doesnt require a lot of skill to do it. with perfect micro youll get 100% win against toss on most maps.
ps: this isnt a troll and im not a noob im plat.
That toss was bad. All that showed is even though you did 6 rax it's still not fast enough to be as OP as orb and others claim. He could have EASILY defended that and then killed you.
And that we only have your word on. How would he have defended well, without losing too much? building zealot and delay the stalker? stall with probes?
Check the replay I posted above and see how LiquidNazgul pulls it off with some great probe micro and a CBed stalker, only losing about 4 probes in the process (meaning he is way ahead).
On April 27 2010 14:44 j4vz wrote: orb just look at this: 6/11 proxy reaper rush + bunker + rauder to counter the 1st stalker:
its not the best micro from toss side but it doesnt matter, its still undefendable
this isnt used by a lot of player right now because its not known enough... but i bet in couple of weeks everyone will be talking about this opening....
if you are a terran just try it, it doesnt require a lot of skill to do it. with perfect micro youll get 100% win against toss on most maps.
ps: this isnt a troll and im not a noob im plat.
You went retarded fast rush build vs his Econ/tech. He did not build appropriately to counter your reapers (his zealot came out way late). What does this prove? That his build was off/he needs practice.
This replay just reminds me of watching Nony proxy right in T's face and absolutely smash against some random dude. The dude asks "has this ever been stopped" as he's getting stomped into the ground. Nony responds, "Yes."
Anyone can post a replay of some rush working, that doesn't mean it's "undefendable".
On April 27 2010 14:44 j4vz wrote: orb just look at this: 6/11 proxy reaper rush + bunker + rauder to counter the 1st stalker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmRwF_ZhO4
its not the best micro from toss side but it doesnt matter, its still undefendable
this isnt used by a lot of player right now because its not known enough... but i bet in couple of weeks everyone will be talking about this opening....
if you are a terran just try it, it doesnt require a lot of skill to do it. with perfect micro youll get 100% win against toss on most maps.
ps: this isnt a troll and im not a noob im plat.
That toss was bad. All that showed is even though you did 6 rax it's still not fast enough to be as OP as orb and others claim. He could have EASILY defended that and then killed you.
And that we only have your word on. How would he have defended well, without losing too much? building zealot and delay the stalker? stall with probes?
Check the replay I posted above and see how LiquidNazgul pulls it off with some great probe micro and a CBed stalker, only losing about 4 probes in the process (meaning he is way ahead).
Problem with reapers is the counter requires some really good micro and high apm. Surround (2 or more groups of workers/units), pull attacked workers back, while still macroing with other workers mining.
The dude in that youtube vid got a Stalker at like 4:35. Doing a super-fast Stalker build 10Gate, 14Core, like I literally always do against Terran, it comes out at the 3:54 mark. That Reaper is in his base at 3:10. That's a pretty large time frame to build a bunker and attack workers. You'll have to sacrifice workers to prevent the bunker (I doubt a single Stalker can take on 2 Reapers in a bunker) and then kite/attack the Reaper (make him micro) until that Stalker shows up. I haven't had any problem with that part, honestly.
I normally build a Zealot after the Stalker, so I've got an answer to the following Marauder. This is standard in every one of my games against Terrans. If it turns out he's not Reaper rushing, I'll send my Stalker into his base and cause some havoc. You can kill one Marine out of his first 3 without losing any health and if he runs off, you can start shooting depots/tech lab and be a real pain in the ass. So, Reaper rush or not, you can make the most out of that build. If he has Marauders, obviously, you just run away, grab a Sentry and figure out what's up with his build order through Hallucination or a quick Observer and react accordingly.
At the end of the day, I really hate the Reaper. Its such horrible design. The unit is essentially useless outside of an early rush. There's nothing the Reaper can do late game that sending a small fraction of your M&M army out in a Medivac can't. Want to do econ harassment? Drop M&Ms with a medivac. Want to kill a defenseless expansion when his army is miles away? Drop M&Ms with a medivac. Want to counter the Zealots and/or Sentries in his army? Make more MMMs!
I just don't see the point of that unit other than to give Terrans these cheese attacks as an early game option.
The problem with early game harrasing is that it should be harrass. Rushing should not ever be cheese. If someone wants to take an econ hit by building units instead of expanding or saturating their mineral line.... so be it. It should all be defendable. (AKA SCVs killing 6 pool lings)
Repears remind me of late game cannon fodder speedlings. They feel useless late game, and aren't used the same way as they are in the early game. They should almost equate to banelings. They should be the Orc Raiders from wc3.
Make reapers require an engineering bay(maybe even require a cheap upgrade to get jump packs to allow them hop cliffs), make them cost more gas, and let them be built via reactor attachments.
On April 27 2010 14:44 j4vz wrote: orb just look at this: 6/11 proxy reaper rush + bunker + rauder to counter the 1st stalker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmRwF_ZhO4
its not the best micro from toss side but it doesnt matter, its still undefendable
this isnt used by a lot of player right now because its not known enough... but i bet in couple of weeks everyone will be talking about this opening....
if you are a terran just try it, it doesnt require a lot of skill to do it. with perfect micro youll get 100% win against toss on most maps.
ps: this isnt a troll and im not a noob im plat.
That toss was bad. All that showed is even though you did 6 rax it's still not fast enough to be as OP as orb and others claim. He could have EASILY defended that and then killed you.
+1. Last night I saw this game of Demuslim vs LiquidNazgul, were Nazgul showed off some great probe micro vs a fast reaper build and only lost 4 probes or something.
this wasnt a 6/11, i saw that game too, in my video the terran doesnt make a first scv he goes straight for a rax... and he goes for a bunker and counter the 1st stalker with a marauder...
basically its faster to get a reaper out and youll be closer to the opponent base.
EDIT: look the demuslim, he start his rax at around 1min. in my video he start his rax around 40second could be done in 35seconds...
There are variations in this rush depending on the map size obviously, and on some maps like that fire one you don't even have to proxy, because there are ledges out the ass.
Since people tend to not read posts in the middle of the topic, I'll say it again: the reaper rush can be easily fixed by better map design (slightly bigger maps) and a very slight build time increase for the tech lab (5 seconds at most).
Yes, obviously it's easier to defend if you scouted it first, because you can send a few probes to where the reaper would jump and delay it further, but even if you don't, it's still not an autoloss.
Larger maps would just encourage more proxy builds, less effective "rushing," and an increased build time on reactors would effect other builds and units. Larger maps hurt my 6 pool cheese...
This actually works better on a 4 player map imo b/c the protoss seems to go with more econ builds since they think rushes would be pretty hard to pull off. However with the timing of the 6rax/6gas rush, the scv that built the rax has more than enough time to scout 2 of hte 3 possible bases before the first reaper is out. The only issue is time to base but reapers are quite fast and there is still at least 30seconds, if not a lot more, you will have to fuck up their base before a stalker is out.
It does require some degree of micro to pull off, but it takes even more to defend. I feel bad for most protoss players that run against this.
Just watched the Nazgul match. Damn he's good. I can't help but to think that a vast majority of plat players would have lost to the marauder+scv followup. And to not panic in the aftermath with only 6 probes left mining minerals, such composure. ^^
If only Demuslim had shot the warping in zealots instead of chasing unslowed sentries and not gotten that marauder trapped by his own scvs, it could have gone very differently. ^^
My problem with the reaper in PvT is that I'm forced to expect this build and counter it. I have no variety in my openers vs T. It's almost impossible to scout if the T puts his rax somewhere sneaky - by the time I get to his base with my probe (9) it's already too late.
Check this out. Total Cost for 1 reaper Minerals = 150 (rax) + 75 (refinery) + 50 (tech lab) + 50 (reaper) = 325 Gas = 25 (tech lab) + 50 (reaper) = 75 Total = 325 / 75 Total Cost for 1 stalker Minerals = 100 (pylon) + 150 (gateway) + 150 (Cyber core) + 75 (assimilator) + 125 (stalker) = 600 Gas = 50 (stalker) Total = 600 / 50
Obviously it will take the protoss longer to acquire such resources, but let's do some deeper analysis.
I've attached two replays - one of a terran going the fastest possible reaper (6 rax), one a protoss going a fastest possible stalker (8-pylon), both on Blistering Sands. I'm not the best player in the world, but these give a good idea of how fast or slow things can be done.
Granted, the terran has less workers at this point, but that's about to change, right? I mean... 47 seconds is a long time for a unit that kills a probe in 3.3 seconds and a zealot in 10 seconds.
What could be done to resolve this issue? We still want reapers to be viable early harass, but not so fast that it's impossible to kill it while it is firing for almost a minute. My suggestion to help alleviate the problem: Increase tech lab construction time from 25 to 40 seconds - OR - Require engineering bay instead of tech lab for reaper production
On April 17 2010 20:35 Skyze wrote: I rush my stalker asap, but if I scout and see he proxied his rax (ie faster reaper outing) I will build one zeal while my core is being built, to at least chase abit so the reaper cant just reign free on my probes. Sure it puts your stalker and economy behind abit, but it is worth it to possibly only lose 1-2 probes instead of 4-5.
Also, if I am feeling extremely vunerable to a reaper rush from the start (ie the player is a known cheeser, a randomer or certain maps) - I make sure to pylon on 8, gate on 9, core 10. It gives me a few extra seconds for that stalker to come faster, at the cost of economy. But better safe than sorry in certain situations.
I apologize in advance for being so god damn bad manner to all you dumb fucks in my thread, but holy fucking shit.
It's like an endless fucking stream of dumb fucking morons that come into the thread spewing their fucking idiocy all over the place. Read the fucking OP, watch the fucking replay, or get the fuck out I don't give a shit what you have to say.
What you've said has been said already and it doesn't fucking work if you had read the thread at all, so please kill yourself for being so god damn stupid.
I'm so tired of 90% of the replies to topics these days being from retards that don't even read the OP let alone even a fraction of the rest of the thread. You're not welcome
Your pretty good at SC2 orb, but even the most godly players have no right talking like that.. no one should talk to fellow TLers like that. Im sure you can find a more civilized way of responding.
I apologize in advance for being so god damn bad manner to all you dumb fucks in my thread, but holy fucking shit.
It's like an endless fucking stream of dumb fucking morons that come into the thread spewing their fucking idiocy all over the place. Read the fucking OP, watch the fucking replay, or get the fuck out I don't give a shit what you have to say.
What you've said has been said already and it doesn't fucking work if you had read the thread at all, so please kill yourself for being so god damn stupid.
I'm so tired of 90% of the replies to topics these days being from retards that don't even read the OP let alone even a fraction of the rest of the thread. You're not welcome
Holy shit dude... A dumb reply would be to rush all your probes and your first zelot/stalker to t base. A lot of posts here have been viable and interesting to read; I think that's called a discussion, and we had a civilized one until that post.
Orb gives Idra a run for the money in terms of BM. At least Idra is (more) civil on the forums lol.
If the only possible way to stop this is to get a fast stalker then why make a thread? It's not like you can magically make anything else to stop it unless you want to just suicide zealots endlessly. It seems obvious you are pigeonholed into a specific start but what you do after (if u survive) is up for debate I suppose.
Where are all the people from the other thread that are crying over micro being dead? Yes, the terran will be able to get a reaper to the toss base before there is a stalker up. Reapers are also fragile as shit and a proxyrax fast reaper is also obvious when you scout so you can be aware that it is coming a short while before the reaper shows up. You just need to NOT group all your probes and attackmove the reaper, you need to split your probes into two or more groups and flank and surround the reaper. Reapers die ridiculously fast even to probes.
It can always be argued whether or not it is reasonable that this build is so easy for terran that anyone can do it and that it takes significantly more skill for a protoss player to beat it but it is by no means unstoppable with proper probe micro. It must also be taken into consideration that as a terran if you do super fast reaper and the toss stops it, then you are fucked. Plain and simple, dead as a fucking doornail.
well usually i dont get rapeared with a 10 raxs but i always scout after my pylon and if i see gas early i expect tech .. reapers or air either way stalkers are good with those. if i do see cheese i get a 11 gate and pump out zealots while i wait for my C core and save 2 chrono boost for it i counter as soon as he attacks with the reaper and lose 2 probes at max which is ok considering if you counter good you should have 3 zealots enough to oneshot scvs and the stalker will have come out he will be more behind then you are and if you keep pushing and its working EXPAND it will make a big difference I always expand when making a push
I haven't had as much trouble as I have been getting. I just get a fast stalker vers Terran and I can hold off reapers. I lose 2-3 probes max, but with the reapers cost, I consider that fine. If they proxy rax I then take that down easily too as I can get a second stalker too when I go fast first stalker. Yes, you will probably lose some probes, but the Terran will also lose a reaper or two, and a barracks if you're lucky. I had trouble before, but now it's not that bad. I think reaper is fine and I'm a Protoss player.
I apologize in advance for being so god damn bad manner to all you dumb fucks in my thread, but holy fucking shit.
It's like an endless fucking stream of dumb fucking morons that come into the thread spewing their fucking idiocy all over the place. Read the fucking OP, watch the fucking replay, or get the fuck out I don't give a shit what you have to say.
What you've said has been said already and it doesn't fucking work if you had read the thread at all, so please kill yourself for being so god damn stupid.
I'm so tired of 90% of the replies to topics these days being from retards that don't even read the OP let alone even a fraction of the rest of the thread. You're not welcome
Holy shit dude... A dumb reply would be to rush all your probes and your first zelot/stalker to t base. A lot of posts here have been viable and interesting to read; I think that's called a discussion, and we had a civilized one until that post.
Please explain to me how saying the same thing over and over and over after it's been refuted many times is a civilized conversation.
Here's an example conversation:
OP: Example A: Poster 1: Well couldn't you counter by X Poster 2: Here's the reason that doesn't work, Poster 1 Poster 3: Well couldn't you counter by Y Poster 4: Here's the reason that doesn't work, Poster 3 Poster 5: Well couldn't you counter by X Poster 2: I already showed why that doesn't work... Poster 6: Well couldn't you counter by X or Y? Poster anything: WE SHOWED YOU WHY THAT DOESNT WORK Poster 7-100: Well couldn't you counter by X or Y? I didn't read the thread because I'm the mentally handicapped spawn of a monkey with an abnormally small brain and a llama.
Now do you understand why I'm pissed off? No one fucking reads OPs or other peoples' posts in threads anymore, people just post their idiotic ideas that have already been refuted acting like in a thread with hundreds of posts it hasn't already been discussed and then pretend like the OP has no idea what he's talking about because your solution must work and must've not already been refuted by many different posters explaining why it doesn't work.
It's like you people have downs syndrome, honestly it's infuriating.
As for someone saying I should be banned for my BM, first off nice back seat modding you twat. Secondly, in my opinion if you post in a thread without even having read the OP let alone any other posts in the thread you deserve to be instantly banned. You're not going to add to any discussion if you haven't even read what the discussion is about and are just spewing retarded comments based on the title of the thread, aka the only thing you actually read.
On April 28 2010 11:19 On_Slaught wrote: Orb gives Idra a run for the money in terms of BM. At least Idra is (more) civil on the forums lol.
If the only possible way to stop this is to get a fast stalker then why make a thread? It's not like you can magically make anything else to stop it unless you want to just suicide zealots endlessly. It seems obvious you are pigeonholed into a specific start but what you do after (if u survive) is up for debate I suppose.
YET AGAIN IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY READ THE THREAD YOU WOULD KNOW GETTING A FAST STALKER DOES NOT STOP IT.
How fucking stupid do you have to be.
I may give idra a run for his money for forum BM but you give George W. Bush a run for his money on sheer stupidity
Honestly I don't think anything makes me more angry than you morons that think you're so clever posting your oh-so-original ideas in threads where you didn't even read the original post.
Here's an idea: if you didn't read the OP, don't post in the thread! Simple concept!
To be frank the quality of the sc2 strategy forum is absolutely disgusting. Every thread I read I see immediate comments from people that CLEARLY didn't even read the topic. Newsflash: No one cares what you have to say if you don't even know what the fuck is being discussed.
The best way to stop a reaper rush once you know its coming(a probe sent after pylon DOES get to the terran base in time to see a gas up with no rax), is to immediately send 4-5 probes to the most probable entrance of the reaper(map dependant, for example blistering sands has the rocks), and just delay any damage he can do. This requires really good micro since you are going to have to pull probes back one by one as soon as they are about to take the second hit.
And of course, you also have to be building up to stalker as soon as possible while this goes on. If you defend it without losing more than 5 probes you are pretty much set.
This is going to be hard for all non high level platinum players, but eventually it should be micro-able at a consistent rate. All you really have to do is force the reaper up and down the cliff and use high ground vision to your advantage, once the second reaper comes out is when you will start losing probes but by then a stalker should be closet to warping in.
-orb-, do you think it's possible to make a anti-6/8/10 rax reaper micro map, basically simulating the part where the first reaper shows up to your base and just practicing the micro over and over (like Nazgul's sexy defense)?
If he gets cute with bunkers, try to consider where the bunker is, what its shooting, and make smart choices... by the time your second gate unit comes out (not a sentry) you should be fine to just kill off his bunker.
stalkers demolish reapers and outrange them while they are in bunkers.
your economy will be miles ahead unless you are terrible at micro.
orb, you should try playing some tvp and see how effective early reaper harass really is. against competent players it really isn't that good. because you cut scvs you have to kill like 5 probes to equalize.
12 gate defends this fine. as gmerc said gate into cyber, no zeal, you might have to dance with your probes a bit but once the stalker comes out you will be ahead.
On April 28 2010 11:19 On_Slaught wrote: Orb gives Idra a run for the money in terms of BM. At least Idra is (more) civil on the forums lol.
If the only possible way to stop this is to get a fast stalker then why make a thread? It's not like you can magically make anything else to stop it unless you want to just suicide zealots endlessly. It seems obvious you are pigeonholed into a specific start but what you do after (if u survive) is up for debate I suppose.
YET AGAIN IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY READ THE THREAD YOU WOULD KNOW GETTING A FAST STALKER DOES NOT STOP IT.
How fucking stupid do you have to be.
I may give idra a run for his money for forum BM but you give George W. Bush a run for his money on sheer stupidity
Honestly I don't think anything makes me more angry than you morons that think you're so clever posting your oh-so-original ideas in threads where you didn't even read the original post.
Here's an idea: if you didn't read the OP, don't post in the thread! Simple concept!
To be frank the quality of the sc2 strategy forum is absolutely disgusting. Every thread I read I see immediate comments from people that CLEARLY didn't even read the topic. Newsflash: No one cares what you have to say if you don't even know what the fuck is being discussed.
If he gets cute with bunkers, try to consider where the bunker is, what its shooting, and make smart choices... by the time your second gate unit comes out (not a sentry) you should be fine to just kill off his bunker.
stalkers demolish reapers and outrange them while they are in bunkers.
your economy will be miles ahead unless you are terrible at micro.
Please let this die guys...
Solution: Read the fucking thread you dumb fucking asshole
On April 28 2010 18:01 LeoTheLion wrote: orb, you should try playing some tvp and see how effective early reaper harass really is. against competent players it really isn't that good. because you cut scvs you have to kill like 5 probes to equalize.
12 gate defends this fine. as gmerc said gate into cyber, no zeal, you might have to dance with your probes a bit but once the stalker comes out you will be ahead.
Lately all I've been doing against Terran is going 10 pylon 10 gate, and I can honestly say I haven't lost to a reaper rush in... well I can't even remember the last time I lost to a reaper rush. With just a little bit of probe micro and maybe a zealot it's very easy to hold off the first reaper until your stalker comes out, if your micro is very good you should lose no probes, or maybe just 1. Even with decent micro you should only lose 2 or 3. Once you fight it off you should be at an advantage over the terran.
And I don't believe 10 gate 10 pylon puts you behind very much or anything, as even if I find they're not going reaper I still go to fast stalker to do harassment.
However, to people who said 12 gate, you have never been reaper proxied properly. 12 gate means there will be a point when 2 reapers will be in your base killing things for a while before the stalker comes out. If you have 2 reapers in your and no stalkers you're in for a world of hurt.
Isn't it the whole idea if that both P and T play perfectly, the reaper should even the economy. And therefore the stalker is a little later than the reaper entering the base.
N.B. I've never played SC2 or SCBW, just watched it a lot.
So, -orb-, oh almighty one, if the fast stalker doesn't stop it then what does? You seem to have so much greater of a knowledge base and skill for SC2 then anyone else here that your opinion must be the absolute truth.
I don't see how you can say something doesn't stop something when players are posting that that is the strategy they use to counter it on a regular basis
Please let me take the time to tell you that I have read every single post in this thread (and that includes the OP) so I suppose that excludes this thread from your criteria of flaming.
However, I am really curious what your suggestion is (as I have not seen a single constructive thing out of you for several pages of posts - while you demand it of everyone else) for a protoss player to stop/counter/minimize losses when facing this strategy.
On April 28 2010 22:49 STS17 wrote: So, -orb-, oh almighty one, if the fast stalker doesn't stop it then what does? You seem to have so much greater of a knowledge base and skill for SC2 then anyone else here that your opinion must be the absolute truth.
I don't see how you can say something doesn't stop something when players are posting that that is the strategy they use to counter it on a regular basis
Please let me take the time to tell you that I have read every single post in this thread (and that includes the OP) so I suppose that excludes this thread from your criteria of flaming.
However, I am really curious what your suggestion is (as I have not seen a single constructive thing out of you for several pages of posts - while you demand it of everyone else) for a protoss player to stop/counter/minimize losses when facing this strategy.
He's asking for advice/suggestions on it because I don't think he knows how. Are you sure you read the OP? :\
I think the main issue here is that people THINK they are being reaper rushed, but it is executed badly by the Ts part, fails in some way and somehow it's automatically assumed the rush is easily countered.
It's not and I can't fathom why Blizz hasn't fixed it yet. A good reaper harass will always come on top of you and put you under submission from the get go, even if you go 10 gate 10 pylon (which is already a huge eco hit).
The way I do it is send 5 probes on the reaper, then retreat the ones he starts picking off while running away. This doesn't work if he's half decent at microing the reaper. And the fact that you went 10 gate + pulled probes that early is bullshit even if you theoretically don't lose a single probe to the reaper.
If he gets cute with bunkers, try to consider where the bunker is, what its shooting, and make smart choices... by the time your second gate unit comes out (not a sentry) you should be fine to just kill off his bunker.
stalkers demolish reapers and outrange them while they are in bunkers.
your economy will be miles ahead unless you are terrible at micro.
Please let this die guys...
Solution: Read the fucking thread you dumb fucking asshole
Your just a raging idiot. Fast stalker does stop it, you might lose a probe or two if your a fucking idiot, but it DOES counter fast reaper.
It's easy to forget that just because Orb has a stream makes doesn't make him good. A nice bit of micro can solve most situations. Ofc he is pissed that if a terran cuts his econ by a massive amount he can have a reaper iin the protoss base before any ranged unit is up. Then the terran either has to do massive dmg or win the game (depending on the rush). Apparently this is vastly unfair and having to micro some zealots/probes while you wait for a stalker is completely unreasonable.
It's like Orb is one of a few protoss in the world that actually bitch about this. The higher the lvl of play the harder it gets to pull off a reaper rush.
HOWEVER I fully expect changes to the reaper so that the Protoss isn't forced into specific builds just to survive the first 5min.
I'm very new to SC2 so please excuse my ignorance. This morning before leaving for work I played a game where the guy did a fast reaper build.
6 rax 6 gas 6 scv -> pulled two scv off minerals and stuck them on the newly completed gas 7 tech 8 reap 9 reap
First reaper is out even before an 8 rax fast reap build.
How would you combat that? I assume in TvT you have to make sure you're not doing your own fast reaper build and get a marine or two out quickly. But in orb's case and TvP wouldn't that basically destroy every probe Protoss have? And Zerg would be just about the same I would think.
imo best way is to build with your first gateway 2 zealots while teching to stalker.. the timing is nearly perfect, first zealot will die to first / second reaper and while the second zealot is chasing the reapers the stalker will pop out
On April 28 2010 23:19 SkullOne wrote:How would you combat that? I assume in TvT you have to make sure you're not doing your own fast reaper build and get a marine or two out quickly. But in orb's case and TvP wouldn't that basically destroy every probe Protoss have? And Zerg would be just about the same I would think.
6rax reaper is no problem for zerg since the only thing it really counters is if you try and do some cute fast hatch build and get reaper bunkered. Assuming normal(13-15) pool timings a queen and lings will be out fast enough to easily protect enough drones to be way ahead of the terran.
The fast reaper builds are a problem for toss in particular because their only counter(stalker) comes out way too late even if you take a risk(if they don't do fast reaper, you are behind) and try to get them super early.
On April 28 2010 22:49 STS17 wrote: So, -orb-, oh almighty one, if the fast stalker doesn't stop it then what does? You seem to have so much greater of a knowledge base and skill for SC2 then anyone else here that your opinion must be the absolute truth.
I don't see how you can say something doesn't stop something when players are posting that that is the strategy they use to counter it on a regular basis
Please let me take the time to tell you that I have read every single post in this thread (and that includes the OP) so I suppose that excludes this thread from your criteria of flaming.
However, I am really curious what your suggestion is (as I have not seen a single constructive thing out of you for several pages of posts - while you demand it of everyone else) for a protoss player to stop/counter/minimize losses when facing this strategy.
Because while all these retards keep posting things like "fast stalker beats it," I have posted a replay that shows that it DOESN'T, while they haven't posted a single replay showing fast stalker beating it other than the occasional one where the terran executes it incorrectly (like the one a little while back where the reaper attacks for cyber core for 30 seconds instead of probes)
On April 28 2010 22:55 Infiltrator wrote: I think the main issue here is that people THINK they are being reaper rushed, but it is executed badly by the Ts part, fails in some way and somehow it's automatically assumed the rush is easily countered.
It's not and I can't fathom why Blizz hasn't fixed it yet. A good reaper harass will always come on top of you and put you under submission from the get go, even if you go 10 gate 10 pylon (which is already a huge eco hit).
The way I do it is send 5 probes on the reaper, then retreat the ones he starts picking off while running away. This doesn't work if he's half decent at microing the reaper. And the fact that you went 10 gate + pulled probes that early is bullshit even if you theoretically don't lose a single probe to the reaper.
I've personally yet to meet anyone who can micro a reaper to fight proper probe/zealot micro effectively. (By that I mean, killing several probes while running around, despite the protoss pulling probes back)
As said before, in the past several weeks I literally can not remember a time that 10 pylon 10 gate has had me lose to a reaper rush, and I've been playing terrans ranging from top players to mid plat players.
10 pylon 10 gate really isn't that huge of a hit to your economy, and allows you to to do stalker harassment earlier too.
I still believe there could be a nerf on the tech building to get reapers/marauders, but this build is nowhere near as hard to deal with as people believe, and once you deal with it you're extremely far ahead economy wise.
I don't think people understand that losing probes to a 6-rax reaper rush is expected and is fair (you have like 14-16 to his 8 by the time his reaper gets there?) It evens out because by the time you get your stalker out you have equivelant economy and forces to deal with each other. Its the equivelant to a 6-ling rush. No-econ. If you don't run your probes away or micro them properly you will LOSE. Zealot to stall is not that far-out depending on the situation. Stalker will come out before reaper reaches your base if he goes 10-rax. The only difference is Terran and Zerg is Terran can recover faster with MULES. So while -orb- complains that he keeps getting replays of this reaper rush failing because the reaper-user was a complete noob, he fails to realize that 90% of the people on battle.net can't execute a perfect reaper rush while a small % of protoss players can't execute a perfect anti-reaper build. Orb falls within this small %age. Whether you want to use this meta-game vs him in a tournament is up to you .
I anticipate lots of nerd rage from orb's PVT incoming due to the recent new strategy of fast-rauder bunker push.
btw...
On April 03 2010 02:40 -orb- wrote:
Thanks for advice and suggestions.
yeah... you are so thankful...
definition of a suggestion: an attempted solution to YOUR problem. at least people try to help you. all you do is talk mad-shit when they don't tell you what you want to hear.
RoboFerret - a good reaper player will just circlestrafe (FPS lingo, I dont know how else to put this) your probes and go after the injured ones. The pathing in this game is done in such way that if a unit cuts its (melee) attackers perpendicular trajectory, the attacker gets pushed back and the unit is able to go by him unharmed. This is further in the reaper's favor because of his increased speed.
Like I said, I think you might not be properly reaper rushed, because even with the preparation, you lose probes to good reaper control no matter how fast your stalker pops out.
On April 29 2010 00:24 Lythis wrote: How come -orb- isn't banned yet? His insults are not constructive AND not funny at all....
Same with the posts that has been posted 500 times in this thread without reading the OP.
I've been having the same problems. Lower league than platinium > full of these people. There's no way you can block it with fast stalker. Atleast i haven't been able to do so.
Not that I'm one to talk because I'm way too lazy to search through all my replays, but do you happen to have any replays or know of any vods of that Infiltrator? I know what you mean by circlestrafing, and the melee pathing and stuff, but I'm curious to see an example of it.
On April 28 2010 22:55 Infiltrator wrote: I think the main issue here is that people THINK they are being reaper rushed, but it is executed badly by the Ts part, fails in some way and somehow it's automatically assumed the rush is easily countered.
It's not and I can't fathom why Blizz hasn't fixed it yet. A good reaper harass will always come on top of you and put you under submission from the get go, even if you go 10 gate 10 pylon (which is already a huge eco hit).
The way I do it is send 5 probes on the reaper, then retreat the ones he starts picking off while running away. This doesn't work if he's half decent at microing the reaper. And the fact that you went 10 gate + pulled probes that early is bullshit even if you theoretically don't lose a single probe to the reaper.
I've personally yet to meet anyone who can micro a reaper to fight proper probe/zealot micro effectively. (By that I mean, killing several probes while running around, despite the protoss pulling probes back)
As said before, in the past several weeks I literally can not remember a time that 10 pylon 10 gate has had me lose to a reaper rush, and I've been playing terrans ranging from top players to mid plat players.
10 pylon 10 gate really isn't that huge of a hit to your economy, and allows you to to do stalker harassment earlier too.
I still believe there could be a nerf on the tech building to get reapers/marauders, but this build is nowhere near as hard to deal with as people believe, and once you deal with it you're extremely far ahead economy wise.
I always start with a 10 pylon 10 gate as well against terran. It's really not that huge of an econ hit, especially if u see that he isn't reaper rushing with ur probe scout because you aren't in such a rush for a stalker anymore. You really only need to get a zealot out to chase him around before your stalker is out. Yes, you will lose a few probes maybe and yes your zealot might not be able to kill him but the idea is so that he isn't standing there shooting at ur probes. Your zealot is just there to buy you some time for your stalker to come out. If anything, i think an early marauder with concussive shell is more deadly than a reaper rush.
On April 28 2010 22:49 STS17 wrote: So, -orb-, oh almighty one, if the fast stalker doesn't stop it then what does? You seem to have so much greater of a knowledge base and skill for SC2 then anyone else here that your opinion must be the absolute truth.
I don't see how you can say something doesn't stop something when players are posting that that is the strategy they use to counter it on a regular basis
Please let me take the time to tell you that I have read every single post in this thread (and that includes the OP) so I suppose that excludes this thread from your criteria of flaming.
However, I am really curious what your suggestion is (as I have not seen a single constructive thing out of you for several pages of posts - while you demand it of everyone else) for a protoss player to stop/counter/minimize losses when facing this strategy.
Because while all these retards keep posting things like "fast stalker beats it," I have posted a replay that shows that it DOESN'T, while they haven't posted a single replay showing fast stalker beating it other than the occasional one where the terran executes it incorrectly (like the one a little while back where the reaper attacks for cyber core for 30 seconds instead of probes)
Yes, you have posted a few replays showing the harass properly executed - I believe the site policy is 8+ replays from platinum level players before arguing anything is imba or unfair. I recognize that the rush gets a reaper in there faster then the protoss can produce a response to it but that's the point of a rush isn't it?
And let's examine a couple other points. The Terran player is going all-in by sacrificing almost all of his economy for some extreme early aggression - why should we be so great as to assume that it can be fended off with a standard economic build? Even so, its literally impossible for you to lose the game before you can get a stalker out and once he is out the rush becomes severely hampered. At this point you are effectively "back in the game, but still on the defensive" as you can assume a marauder should be soon to follow.
Now, cool your rage, as I understand that is essentially what all these "retards" above have been saying so my question is - have you considered sending your first zealot straight into their base to kill off his SCVs? Your scout should give you enough time to send the first (chronoboosted) zealot towards them and even if you reach his base after his reaper begins harassing yours he can't possible micro his reaper and SCVs simultaneously (at least not enough to remain effective) and his lost mining time will cripple his ability to respond. If he sends his reaper into his base to defend against your zealot then you have stopped the rush as you now have ample time to react and if he keeps it in your base its business as usual defending it - except he now has no resources to back up the rush.
Again, I am not a Protoss player and I don't use this rush as Terran so I may or may not be completely off here - though it does seem to work on paper.
On April 29 2010 00:24 Lythis wrote: How come -orb- isn't banned yet? His insults are not constructive AND not funny at all....
because some people need to be told that they're retarded
half the people are like "lol if you're retarded you'll only lose one probe"
or "lol get a stalker and you won't lose any probes"
meanwhile people are saying "look at nazgul's sick defense; he only lost four probes"
It seems obvious that you aren't comming away from this rush without losing some probes. I don't think anyone has denied that but it seems that Orb is intent on finding a build that absolutely avoids all loss which simply isn't possibile.
Hence people say things like "micro a little to minimize loss while you wait for stalker." Keep in mind that the terran isn't exactly flowing in cash if he devoted to a rush. If its a 6rax it's pretty much all in and if it's a 8 or 10rax even if you lose 5 probes you can easily CB back those numbers while remaining pretty even economically.
Though I play terran myself I must say a 6 rax proxy reaper rush is very strong on certain maps.
Though it can certainly be countered by all races it more or less forces people to scout very early, or go certain BO to make sure they dont face it, which in return puts the opponent on a disadvantage if the Terran opts for something different.
For zerg anything higher then a 10 pool will instaloose, same goes for a toss who doesnt earlygate + core, and same goes for a terran who opts for a normal 10 supply 12 rax build.
Also even while a 9 rax reaper feels all in, it is a strat that can easily get an economic advantage over your opponents.
On April 29 2010 00:46 STS17 wrote: have you considered sending your first zealot straight into their base to kill off his SCVs? Your scout should give you enough time to send the first (chronoboosted) zealot towards them and even if you reach his base after his reaper begins harassing yours he can't possible micro his reaper and SCVs simultaneously (at least not enough to remain effective) and his lost mining time will cripple his ability to respond.
THIS is a decent suggestion... and as far as I can tell, the first decent suggestion. This should work if he proxy-raxed, and if he didn't you should have time to get a stalker.
Although this has the potential to counter proxy-reaper, this still doesn't solve the problem of the protoss being forced to go fast stalker because you don't have time to scout it out.
seriously though. the solution is there.. it works.. the amount that is invested is pretty severe. especially if a bunker gets involved. and if you micro probes properly (they are faster and take 3 shots to die), you should be miles ahead... this thread is starting to take up valuable first page space..
You don't have to get the Stalker out before the Reaper. Just be well on your way to getting one by the time it arrives. You'll take Probe casualties, sure. Even more if they try to make a bunker on top of it. But, considering the Terran's build order of having two SCVs making buildings incredibly quickly, and collecting gas, his economy is going to be hurt, big-time.
If they do a more eco-friendly Reaper-rush build, the 10Gate-14Core build stomps it utterly. Just make sure to make 2 Stalkers in case they try luring one away and sending another in the other side. I like to do that and make them think I'm being lured away, then his second Reaper runs head-first into a different Stalker.
. Total Time Elapsed Economic fast stalker (not fastest stalker) fastest stalker would result in disadvantage if terran were to use any other strategy
Probe (17) 9 food pylon Current Game Time34 seconds) Pylon(25) (59 seconds) 11 food Gate(65) (small break) (124 seconds) Cyber(50) + zealot (33) (157 seconds) Stalker(42) (chrono 50%) (28) (185 seconds) Note: at this time you have ~16 probes Proxy Barracks Reaper
Allow conservative 17 seconds to travel to proxy location (17 seconds) Barracks (60)(assuming enough minerals by now) (77 seconds) Tech Lab (25) (102 seconds) Reaper (40) (scv now in your base) (140 seconds) Reaper travel (8) (conservative half a probe time) (148 seconds) Bunker (30)
STOP
If you can hold off the reaper for 40 game seconds on speed "Fast" you win. This is approximately 30 seconds in real life.
40 seconds to kill your zealot and 7 probes to be even to terran 8 scv...
Do you really think you can lose 7 probes and a zealot within half a minute? (Well, maybe you would Orb...) The only time this would ever happen is if the zealot went straight at the reaper and didn't micro and didn't move away his probes and played horrible. But no, since you assume the reaper-rusher is perfect, it is okay to assume that the Protoss player is perfect too. So-to-speak a perfect protoss player would never lose to a perfect terran reaper-rusher.
Also.. at the end of 40 game seconds, the second reaper is only finished out of his barracks and on his way, not in your base. Ample time to chase down the first one and kill it or chase it out of range of your mineral line so you don't get flanked by the 2nd reaper.
I did the same math you did and came out with the same conclusion. 30 seconds. Yet somehow I'm able to consistently beat this strategy and you aren't. Maybe you are doing something wrong or can't micro. Who knows? (Cares)
The terran will have 10 scvs when the reaper comes out btw, but your point is still valid.
If you chase the reaper with a zealot AND a few probes, it will have a hard time actually dealing any damage, because you can't kite and shoot perfectly (in other words you either have to run for longer than the firing delay or you have to take some damage, because probes and zealot will catch up with you).
This rush isn't any more OP than the 2 gate proxy in BW (with gay wall blocking and shield battery).
On April 29 2010 00:42 RoboFerret wrote: Not that I'm one to talk because I'm way too lazy to search through all my replays, but do you happen to have any replays or know of any vods of that Infiltrator? I know what you mean by circlestrafing, and the melee pathing and stuff, but I'm curious to see an example of it.
You can see it almost any game when a peon tries to deny the other peon to build something. Basically the enemy sets his peon to attack you, and you just circle strafe your own one. Both workers are very close, but the one doing the deny is actually circling around him in melee range a lot and just keeps bumping the one who is trying to attack him.
your build placement shuold keep your gateway near your nexus, and worst case scenario you lose 2 maybe 3 probes (you are not behind). just keep your stalkers in the mineral line until you get enough to patrol the edges where reapers can climb up
First of all I just want to make it clear that I have read your entire OP fully and watched all 3 replays. (I only read about 5-6 pages of this thread though didn't have time go through 22 pages, so if what I am saying now has already been said or answer, I apologize)
I am going to go pretty in-depth about this analysis so forgive me for a wall of text.
Let me first state some simple facts: - Roughly 1.4 seconds in replay speed is equivalent to 1 second in faster speed (in game speed) - The average time a 10 rax reaper gets out is at 3:19, with 9 rax being about 3:15 and 8 rax at 3:07. - The shortest travel distance out of the current map pool is 12-3, 6-9 position on Lost Temple, it takes roughly 17 seconds replay time to reach attacking range of your mineral line (19 seconds on Metropolis). - With an 8 rax reaper rush, he has 10 scvs by the time he gets to your base. With 9 rax he will have 13 scvs and lastly with 10 rax he will have 15 scvs. If he opts for an early orbital command instead of scv production then you can take off around 2-3 scvs from his scv count.
This means 8 Rax - to your probe at 3:24 with 10 scvs 9 Rax - to your probe at 3:32 with 13 scvs 10 Rax - to your probe at 3:36 with 15 scvs
Here's my build that counters it and does not put me behind economically even if he doesn't reaper rush.
8 Pylon (Chrono boost the first probe right after) and Scout with Probe 12 Gate (Chrono boost the first probe right after) 14 Assimilator 15 Pylon blocking off the back of mineral line (You should have this 100 mineral right before the 15th probe finishes) 16 Cyber (You should have this 150 mineral right when the 16th probe finishes) Keep making probes 17 Zealot (With first 100 mineral, Chrono Boosted) 20 Stalker (Chrono Boosted) 22 Assimilator Transition to whatever normal build you want to.
With this build, the first zealot gets out at 3:27, first stalker will be out by 4:07 roughly. This means I have roughly 43-31 seconds (depending on which build he goes) before my first stalker gets out. It should be realized that this 43-31 replay seconds only converts to 30-22 seconds of actual gameplay time.
By the time he reachs your base, you will have 17 probes. He needs to kill 7/4/2 to break even. The reaper's attack speed has a 1.1 second cooldown (the cooldown is in replay time) so if left untouched he will get off about 39-28 attacks off on you. This will kill you right there and that's why you need to be pulling 4 probes and your zealot on the reaper to attack. Your zealot does 16 damage per hit and probes does 5 each. So essentially your zealot 3 shots reapers and reapers will 2 shot any probe and 9 shot a zealot.
He will most likely be focusing on your probes chasing him (if he doesn't gg he just did a completely useless reaper harras). The probes move as essentially the same speed as the reaper, so he cannot take many hits at a probe without kiting a long distance after to avoid getting hit. just pull back every one that has been hit, if he chases to kill that probe, he will be running towards your probes and zealots and you will do 5 * 3 + 16 = 31 damage to him. 2 of those hits and the reaper is dead (even after you pull one you will do 26 damage so still enough for 2 hitting), so he can't really afford to be chasing to kill the probe. Each time you pull a probe, add another one on him if he is relatively close to your mineral line. If you chased him all the way to the edge of the base already then just pull back all probes and keep your zealot on him, you already wasted enough of his time to get your stalker out before he can do any serious damage.
By doing this strategy, you will have effectively reduced the number of attacks he would be doing by a signiciant amount. Yes, he will still kill about 2-3 maybe even 4 probes before your stalker is out since he has ranged attack but you will have an advantage against 8 rax (if he managed to kill more than 6 then you just have really bad micro with this strat and needs to practice more), and have a very small advantage/disadvantage compared to him with 9 or 10 rax. It is definitely not gamebreaking.
In addition, 1 very useful tactic I have been using lately against terran is to delay the tech lab for as long as I can with the scouting probe at 8. With this early probe you need to be checking for common proxy spots (the one in your replay on Desert Oasis is like the most common spot for terran, I ALWAYS check it first since I been beat by it a lot before). If you scouted his proxy just attack the scv and enjoy the free win if you kill it or gets it to stop building. If you arrived too late to stop the barrack from finishing then, what I do is hang around where the tech lab would come out for as long as I can. The proxy scv cannot do anything to me since I will have more hp than it from eariler attacks. He would have to lift up barracks to reposition, at this time just move under the barracks and try to keep him from landing for as long as u can.
If you do not scout a proxy barrack, then proceed to his base, you will still get to his base before his barrack finishes (if on LT or Metropolis check the 12-3, 6-9 spawn first since that's the only spots where reaper rush is extremely dangerous, every other map is either 1v1 or big enough for it to not be that effective). At his base you will do the same thing with the tech lab delay, but this time he will most likely pull a scv or 2 to try to attack you, I just simply build a pylon where his tech lab would be and force him to lift his barracks, and cancel my pylon after he lifts off. This usually delays him for a good bit and makes his reaper rush a lot less effective.
If you ever see a terran trying to bunker in your base, IMMEDIATELY pull probes to kill the scv or use your zealot, if you do this, it will never get up. If he starts the bunker after his reaper gets there, you need to pull additional probes that wasn't already targeting the reaper to do this so he can't just kill the probes that are attacking the scv.
I also want to just state this is all in a hypothetical perfect scenario, chances are you won't micro your probes that perfectly but then again he probably won't micro his reaper perfectly either. But now at least we know at the highest level of play, this strategy is not overpowered.
To Orb: A couple of things I have noticed about your play in your replays.
Your fastest gateway strategies cut way too many probes in the beginning and therefore does give you room for letting probes die to the harras. Your stalker will never get out before his reaper does so the safest way is just to make so many more probes than him so even after he kills a couple, you still have about the same as him.
You are very slow about pulling probes to kill the scv and that resulted in the bunkers going up a lot of the time, if you haven't let that happen, the reaper rush will be tremedously easier to defend against.
Lastly (this is minor but still), you almost always go 9 pylon with a chrono boost on 10. I think that's a very bad idea, if you go 9 pylon you need to be chrono'ing on 11, or 8 pylon chrono on 9. By going 9 pylon and chronoing the probe right after, you waste 5 seconds of the 20 second chrono boost while waiting for the pylon to finish and a full 10 seconds if you decide to go gate and not make a probe immediately after. You are not taking full advantage of your chrono boost when you do this, but perhaps you know something about this that I do not and in that case, I hope you would enlighten me.
Finally I just want to once again apologize for this enormous wall of text, I don't know how to get my point across otherwise. I also want to say to Orb that I know you are a lot better player than me (in fact, you are in my division =D). However I think your frustration against the reaper rush is not letting you see the bigger picture clearly =/.
This is just my 2 cents. If I made any error in my analysis please let me know!
I've noticed the chronoboost on the 10 probe. I'm not in a spot to call you out on it, but it always seemed better to chronoboost the next 11+12 probes rather than the 10 and half of the 11th.
I just figured there was an alternate reasoning behind it.
On April 29 2010 05:17 RonNation wrote: great post fangzhou
i usually 10 gate 10 core to get out a quick stalker
I hope that second number is a typo. You can't build a Core before the Gateway is finished. You can get 4 more Probes and an Assimilator going in that time.
I can't believe people are still discussing this. Go 10 pylon 11 gate 13 gate 16 core 17 pylon 18 stalker as a standard opening. If he's going some sort of ridiculously fast reaper or a proxy (if it's 8 rax or earlier he'll probably proxy anyways) chrono a zealot asap and cut some probes to do that. You'll still have the same time on the stalker, you'll have a zealot to get in the way of his reaper, and you'll be economically ahead even with probe cut.
This guy does a terrible job of probe micro, hes like forcing a fight before his stalker comes out.. wtf? well no shit 2 reapers + 1 scv can kill 8 probes.. the point is to delay for a stalker, not fend off...
micro
better.
did you see the income the terran had? it was hilariously low.
sweet. i can dance 4 probes for that extra 15 seconds irl and still make more than income than the terran, after the 3rd gateway unit comes out, (stalker zel stalker) the terran has no chance of winning.
On April 29 2010 05:44 gmerc wrote: then the terran is even MORE BEHIND...
sweet. i can dance 4 probes for that extra 15 seconds irl and still make more than income than the terran, after the 3rd gateway unit comes out, (stalker zel stalker) the terran has no chance of winning.
oh and let me add that this terran player got over 90% win as terran in platinum league. (last time starcraftrankings.com was updated)
I addressed this briefly in my post with regard to proxy rush.
That's the reason why I make an 8 pylon and scout with probe instead of the faster stalker 10/11. My probe will have covered almost all proxy spots before the 6 proxy gateway would have gone up. I just did a test and my scouting probe covered all the areas near the edge of my cliff on blistering sand at around the 1:20 mark. His barracks finished building around 1:45, this gives me 25 more seconds to search for proxy barracks around if he tries a weird spot. If I have found his proxy barrack early on, he would not even be able to get it finished and if I find it relatively late, I will simply use the delay tech lab tactic above to almost infinitely delay his tech lab while bringing another 2 probes from base to help. You can afford this since if you stop his tech lab from building you won the game already, 6 rax proxy is as all in as you can get. The key here is to look for proxies early, if you don't find any then go to his base to scout, you will still get there in time for most standard 8-10 rax reaper rushes before his barrack is complete. Once you scout it, infinitely delay the tech lab or at least for as long as you can since if you look at the video, the terran only has 10/11 population, that's only 8 scvs. He would have to kill more than 7 of your 15 or so scvs by that time in order to at least break even. If you did the scouting properly you should be able to hold him off long enough to get your stalker out.
As to the maradur transition after, I immediately tech to a robotics facility with my first 100 gas after warp gate research and the stalker. Then build zealots until I have 100 gas again and get a chrono boosted sentry ASAP to block off ramps. Then I build a chrono boosted immortal with my robotics facility first and observer second. This immortal + zealots + sentries should be enough to hold off any maradur rush early without ghosts. Usually if they attack me before the sentry gets out, they don't have nearly enough to kill my stalker + zealot and pulled 3 probes army. If they don't attack until the sentry gets out (which gets out pretty early) then I forcefield the ramp when they do and by then I will have held on long enough for my immortal to almost be out or even out already. I have not done extensive testing on this matter yet but from all the games I played so far, I have not faced a terran who could break me with a maradur push without ghost unless they were hugely successful with their initial reaper rush.
In addition, in the video, instead of putting 4-5 probes on the reaper and 3 or so on the scv building the bunker, he only attacked the scv with almost all his probes early on. This lets the reaper get free hits off without fear of being attacked, if he had split his probes the bunker would not go up and he would not lose as many scvs as he did early.
Edited: Yes, it would be really hard to hold against that rush if you never found his proxy barracks but if he's clever enough to be able to hide his proxy for 60 seconds (my pylon is built around 0:45 and probes scouts immediately after and his barracks is up at 1:45), then by all means he deserves the win lol.
You cannot get to the terrans base fast enough to 10 gate or anything and you lose a ton of minerals... just casually gate on 12 and cyber immidiately.
it seems alot of people problems are like self-harassment, double chrono stalker? scout on 8? 10 gate?
get more probes, micro those probes. crush terrans who have been cheesing the bad protoss in plat.
On April 29 2010 05:49 gmerc wrote: thats why i said.. "why do calculations if u cant probe micro?" if you cant stop it, its because u cant micro probes.
good micro with reaper around the building and you can kite the probe. 90,75% win as terran...
206win 21loss
maybe he didnt do that build everytime (1-2% of times) maybe his net crashed. (1%) maybe he failed to micro reaper properly (3-4%) oh and he played against zerg/terran/toss since its ladder stats.
i bet he never lost to a toss a player. so who can micro ?
On April 29 2010 05:37 gmerc wrote: why do any calculations if you cant micro probes properly...
BECAUSE THIS BUILD get the reaper in the toss base 24sec faster than any other build calculated by Fangzhou.
and this is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.
people think they can defend against reaper because they faced weak variant... but the 6/11 IS really OP
FOR HOW TO STOP 6/RAX REAPER RUSH, PLEASE MY POST ON PAGE 22
fangzhou came up with the rest of the calculation for slower reaper builds, however, since you acn stop 6/rax reaper you can stop anything later... orb is right in the sense that this discussion just keeps looping over and over again. i cant believe this thread is still here 24 pages after people have found solutions to it... seriously... the answer is already provided in the fucking 24 pages of this tissue issue... just because orb says something is overpowered and imba doesnt mean it is.. for fuck sakes, he rages every single game that he loses that something wasn't balanced or that his opponent somehow lucked out.. if orb had his way, terran wouldn't even have mauraders or reapers.. they'd just have a barracks with marines and zero-tech options...
6rax reaper opening is not OP, are you the best player in the world or something and can't stop it? obviously not if 90% of the average platinum players can... obviously its not OP because if it was OP it would be mainstream by now.
Seriously.. stop looking at numbers and go play a game. Micro is the key. GLhf.
edit:
micro around a building? so what. its not like reapers turn corners faster or anything.. its still a chase path. oh no.. now my probes coming around the other side get to get two hits off..
wow 10 seconds gone already? good thing he 6 raxed instead of 10.. hes wasting a ton of time...
On April 29 2010 05:49 gmerc wrote: thats why i said.. "why do calculations if u cant probe micro?" if you cant stop it, its because u cant micro probes.
good micro with reaper around the building and you can kite the probe. 90,75% win as terran...
206win 21loss
maybe he didnt do that build everytime (1-2% of times) maybe his net crashed. (1%) maybe he failed to micro reaper properly (3-4%) oh and he played against zerg/terran/toss since its ladder stats.
i bet he never lost to a toss a player. so who can micro ?
have you ever thought about the fact that he was just a really good player and didn't open with reapers EVERY GAME? were you there to witness all 227 games that he played or something? saying something is overpowered on the basis of some guy's awesome record is completely un-academic and has no arguementitive value what so ever...
guess what, on the asian server there are 80-90% every race.. i guess every race must be OP then right?
On April 29 2010 05:57 gmerc wrote: Don't scout with your 8 probe.
You cannot get to the terrans base fast enough to 10 gate or anything and you lose a ton of minerals... just casually gate on 12 and cyber immidiately.
it seems alot of people problems are like self-harassment, double chrono stalker? scout on 8? 10 gate?
get more probes, micro those probes. crush terrans who have been cheesing the bad protoss in plat.
With the 8 scout you will be able to get to the Terran's base way before any barrack variation aside from 6 rax finishes. The timing you get to delay his tech lab is invaluable in this match up imo. Since he will be cutting scvs early to do this reaper harras. The mineral you lose from this scouting probe not mining is not that significant. In addition, with my 12 gate strategy mentioned before, the mineral count fits perfectly even with the scouting probe not mining. I do not have 1 second of gap in between buildings or units production so the difference is minerals is not realized until later on in the game. Yes, overall you will get less minerals, but not less than the terran certainly not less enough for me to offset the importance of tech lab delaying and breaking proxy raxs.
On April 29 2010 06:05 gmerc wrote: So, you sacrafice a probe to see if you should chrono your stalker or just another probe?
If u invariably 12 gate whats the point?
The point being I can get inside his base before his barracks finishes so when it does, I can stand the probe or build a pylon then cancel at where his tech lab would go down, he would be forced to lift up his barracks and I'll make my probe stand below his barrack landing zone for as long as I can and by then another good 6-7 seconds has gone by, and his reaper rush is A LOT less effective. It is not whether I should chrono stalker or probe since in my post I chrono boost the stalker regardless (I'm assuming you didn't read my original post since it was wall of text, understandable but don't assume you know what I was trying to say before you do).
In addition, I can stop a lot of proxy cheese strategies with this probe. It should be noted I only scout with 8 probe against Terran in maps not Kulas Ravine since the reaper rush is extremely common. Against other races, yes I keep it there for the additional minerals.
Oh and I will post a replay sometime in the near future. Going to be busy with exams until Friday so I will post a replay this weekend probably.
if you get to his base and see him mining gas.. now what? the probe wasted his time since u are boosting ur 12 gated stalker anyway.
the point i was trying to make is that a reaper harass is really really bad against proper probe micro. to the point where you don't need to harm urself to also harm the rush. you just stall it, then crush it.
Seriously, could we get a replay of a protoss fighting off a 6 rax -> marauder anytime soon? (with both players being anatomically normal and equipped with a brain)
Starcraft on paper seriously isn't the same as in-game starcraft.
Orb was way ahead after the first stalker came out.
The grave mistake I think was just that he only had a single stalker to protect his base. If they got a reaper out before even your standard core comes out, I think it's safe to say their worker count is like half as much as yours. At the time the stalker popped out, Orb had almost 50% more probes. If he just built 1 or 2 more stalkers, he could have protected the front AND mineral line from reapers. Instead he just kept on chronoboosting workers.
Before the 2nd reaper attack which was really the killing blow, orb had twice as many workers. The 2nd attack which consisted of 3 reapers killed off enough probes to the point where orb has 2 less workers. I think that's what you call "The defender's game to lose". Defender definitely needs to keep their cool and control much better than the attacker. Though most cheese builds are like that.
On April 29 2010 06:16 gmerc wrote: sometimes you get unlucky,
if you get to his base and see him mining gas.. now what? the probe wasted his time since u are boosting ur 12 gated stalker anyway.
the point i was trying to make is that a reaper harass is really really bad against proper probe micro. to the point where you don't need to harm urself to also harm the rush. you just stall it, then crush it.
Unlucky as in you don't scout his proxy after 50 (you have 60 seconds before a 6 rax is up but I usually like to start heading to his base 10 seconds before in case he didn't proxy) seconds of scouting time? Because you always get inside his base before the barracks is finished regardless of what rax he is going other than 6 of course. So basically, if he 6 rax proxy you, you have very high chance of winning the game right there. If he goes 8-10 rax you delay his reaper for a considerable amount of time. All of this is done without affecting the timing of your early production and units 1 bit. Yes you will have an extra ~150 minerals (did not do calculation so just assuming) or so but it will not kick in until later since early production is not delayed. The biggest delay here would be your robotics facility might get out just a little bit later (like 10-15 seconds or so), but by then it doesn't really matter since you have will have stopped his early reaper rush very efficiently and will already be at an advantage. If he doesn't go reaper rush and goes for some other build, then I have personally not faced 1 terran player that could make use of that extra mineral lost from scouting probe to kill me early with some kind of m&m force. I just sentry away and by then the difference is not that huge anymore.
EDIT: In addition, if I go to his base and scout he's not doing early reaper harras I can choose not to make that stalker early and still get my robo and second gateway up in normal time.
Yes I understand what you are saying about the proper probe micro, personally I am confident in my probe micro and I haven't had any problems fending off reaper harrases. But for the other people whose micro aren't that great, isn't it easier to micro 1 probe against scvs to stop a proxy or tech lab than to micro all of your probes against a reaper that can 2 shot u?
I found out that i had money to 2nd gas alot earlier when i cut scouting untill 15 or so. You clearly have a good justification for your scout, so its just different; not better/worse.
This whole thread is the perfect example of strats/units/whatever that are originally deemed to be too powerful or unfair or whatever, when in all reality its that people just need to learn to play.
Hi everyone. I'm new here. I stumbled upon this website because orb and someone else destroyed me and a friend in a 2v2, orb and someone else as Terran and my friend and I Protoss. After watching the replay numerous times I can not figure out how to counter the reaper. I don't want to read through all 25 pages of this thread, but I skipped around a little bit and I see people talking about how there is a defense, but I have not found the replay. Can someone please link to the replay where the reaper rush is defended without going immediate forge?
On April 29 2010 09:39 mR.Waffles wrote: Hi everyone. I'm new here. I stumbled upon this website because orb and someone else destroyed me and a friend in a 2v2, orb and someone else as Terran and my friend and I Protoss. After watching the replay numerous times I can not figure out how to counter the reaper. I don't want to read through all 25 pages of this thread, but I skipped around a little bit and I see people talking about how there is a defense, but I have not found the replay. Can someone please link to the replay where the reaper rush is defended without going immediate forge?
Seriously? Like two posts above yours are 3 replays of me doing 6 rax reaper vs merc, and him defending it and coming out way way ahead.
On April 29 2010 09:39 mR.Waffles wrote: Hi everyone. I'm new here. I stumbled upon this website because orb and someone else destroyed me and a friend in a 2v2, orb and someone else as Terran and my friend and I Protoss. After watching the replay numerous times I can not figure out how to counter the reaper. I don't want to read through all 25 pages of this thread, but I skipped around a little bit and I see people talking about how there is a defense, but I have not found the replay. Can someone please link to the replay where the reaper rush is defended without going immediate forge?
Seriously? Like two posts above yours are 3 replays of me doing 6 rax reaper vs merc, and him defending it and coming out way way ahead.
Sorry I just figured out how to watch them. I shoulda been more specific and asked for a youtube video. I didn't realize I had to dump the file into the recent folder to make it show up.
What do you do on a map where the mineral line is next to a ridge and you cannot chase the reaper off with the probes?
On April 29 2010 09:52 gmerc wrote: The bunker is what makes it all in tho. beat it and you win.
how do you beat a 400hp bunker with repair that finishes in 30 seconds while a reaper is killing your workers and your first units are just poping out?
You can most certainly kill the building scv with a few probes while chasing the reaper around with a few more. If the stalker comes out and no bunker is built, the harassment is over and terran is way, way behind.
Watch the 3 replays on page 25: In game two he gets the bunker up, that replay is the closest, but also the worst performed by the protoss. Late stalker, bad probe control etc.
I watched those videos now and my only complaint is that the protoss has to play as if he knows that's the terran strat. You have to open with stalkers against terran, and you didn't even have a probe to scout. So do we just always open with stalkers against terran?
On April 29 2010 10:13 mR.Waffles wrote: I watched those videos now and my only complaint is that the protoss has to play as if he knows that's the terran strat. You have to open with stalkers against terran, and you didn't even have a probe to scout. So do we just always open with stalkers against terran?
No, let's make a useless zealot that won't catch a scouting scv if the opposing player has over 50 apm, or throw down our tech in the face of the scv and not make any units before robo or stargate.
1. you knew exactly what hes doing 2. you didnt even scout 3. the bunker was late 4. the T screw up his econ with just 2 scvs on minerals, and ended up with 270+ gas unspent
On April 29 2010 10:24 poor newb wrote: the replay doesnt mean anything
1. you know exactly what hes doing 2. you didnt even scout 3. the bunker was late 4. the T screw up his econ with just 2 scvs on minerals, and ended up with 270+ gas unspent
Yea now the terran wont have such a good economy after the reaper rush.... are you serious? All that matters is that there was enough minerals not to slow down the reapers... what would more minerals have done there?
Edit: After all the mistakes the TERRAN made? There is no reason the bunker should have gotten up.. the toss accidentally stopped attacking the scv right before it died, and it'd have been even easier to kill the building scv if I built the bunker earlier because I wouldn't have been able to come in with the 2nd reaper and kill several probes attacking the scv as easily/quickly. Furthermore, the protoss forgot to build the stalker for literally 7 game seconds once the cycore finished...
Why are people still posting in this thread. Open with gate core and boost stalker. There's no way for Terran to punish u for it. If your scout probe sees marauder or second rax, just throw down a second gate. Attack the reaper with 5 probes when it gets there. You lose 2 probes max to 10 rax reaper.
Is 8 pylon 12 gate to cyber like.. unusual? Also, i didnt start building out of my gateway untill i saw the reaper...
The terran didnt execute properly, but niether did the protoss.
After i have 2 stalkers 1 zelot and i get to his baracks, what recourse does he have? start another rax at home and hope i don't walk in and destroy all his scvs before he gets enough marines to stop me?
On April 29 2010 09:52 gmerc wrote: The bunker is what makes it all in tho. beat it and you win.
how do you beat a 400hp bunker with repair that finishes in 30 seconds while a reaper is killing your workers and your first units are just poping out?
On April 29 2010 10:13 mR.Waffles wrote: I watched those videos now and my only complaint is that the protoss has to play as if he knows that's the terran strat. You have to open with stalkers against terran, and you didn't even have a probe to scout. So do we just always open with stalkers against terran?
Read my posts from page 23-25, it should solve almost all your problems with reaper rushes with very basic micro control.
As for someone saying I should be banned for my BM, first off nice back seat modding you twat. Secondly, in my opinion if you post in a thread without even having read the OP let alone any other posts in the thread you deserve to be instantly banned. You're not going to add to any discussion if you haven't even read what the discussion is about and are just spewing retarded comments based on the title of the thread, aka the only thing you actually read.
Still doesnt change the fact that youre dumb BM fuck. Now go and polish your glasses with IdrA nerd. I read all posts on this topic, yes, people are saying lots of bullshit and repeating same shit, but that doesnt give you right to insult people..
On April 29 2010 09:52 gmerc wrote: The bunker is what makes it all in tho. beat it and you win.
how do you beat a 400hp bunker with repair that finishes in 30 seconds while a reaper is killing your workers and your first units are just poping out?
kill the scv with your stalker and shoot the bunker from out of range since reaper does not have enough range to hit stalker inside a bunker... common sense here... plus a stalker does not get 3-shot by the reaper either.. even if it pops out right infront of the bunker.. its not like there is an immortal inside the bunker shooting at u... comon guys.. its a reaper..
On April 29 2010 10:13 mR.Waffles wrote: I watched those videos now and my only complaint is that the protoss has to play as if he knows that's the terran strat. You have to open with stalkers against terran, and you didn't even have a probe to scout. So do we just always open with stalkers against terran?
well you certainly aren't going to open sentry vs early maurauders now are u...
On April 29 2010 09:52 gmerc wrote: The bunker is what makes it all in tho. beat it and you win.
how do you beat a 400hp bunker with repair that finishes in 30 seconds while a reaper is killing your workers and your first units are just poping out?
kill the scv with your stalker and shoot the bunker from out of range since reaper does not have enough range to hit stalker inside a bunker... common sense here... plus a stalker does not get 3-shot by the reaper either.. even if it pops out right infront of the bunker.. its not like there is an immortal inside the bunker shooting at u... comon guys.. its a reaper..
oh man in a couple of day everyone will apologize and will say that i was right about proxy 6/11 + bunker + rauder to counter 1st stalker... clani.raq will be posting around 200 replays.
The reaper comes out as fast as possible. And what, your going to wait for probes to move out of the mineral line? and hope that a 3x2 space is left open for a full two seconds?
And 4 probes can kill an scv very fast... and if it gets up.. the game still isnt over.
I know forcefields are fun, but you gotta learn how to micro other units too.
1st replay: the terran player is a bit late because he didnt sent his scv right away but this doesnt change much, he microed verybad he had his first reaper surrounded by probe while the 2nd reaper was standing there without doing anything....
lol he sacked the 1st reaper gg.....
and he didnt counter the 1st stalker with a marauder... the bunker isnt at the good spot.
2st replay: OMFG worst micro ever with the terran.... come on.... and wheres the marauder to counter the stalker....
he can get a marauder look at the gas, he need to switch guys to mineral... then he just run with reaper and wait that the stalker is died.... spam more rauder and gg....
3st replay: omfg i thought i was the worst micro but i didnt saw that one....
i can tell that this guy micro isnt as good as clani... i never said i could do better but i know clani can...
im playing toss.
but i would LOVE to see you against clani... this would close this thread for good.
I played clani back on page 9 or something and lost 1 probe. I wish you people would really stop with this nonsense. When I say you people I mean all the 50 apm players and Orb, who only complains about this because he complains about everything related to his race.
We played a single game, before anyone knew what proxy reaper bunker was. It was just me seeing how fast I could get a reaper out (in my own base).
Not a real game at all
Did he also tell you he refused to play any more games, with me telling him I would beat him going 12 gate? Or that I we could bet $100-$500 and do a bo5? He was no where to be found then. Building a bunker doesn't do anything except require the Protoss to pull one more probe.
Blizzard should just implement a tie-in with Paypal in Bnet 2.0 so they could automate all these grudge matches! :D Don't like someone? Think they're full of crap? Grudge match with money on the line!
On April 30 2010 08:29 j4vz wrote: well, ill try all i can to get him to play you,
if you win you are my new hero.... your micro was good but i cant really judge from what i saw.... you vs clani would close the debate
:D
You are so clearly all talk. Play gmerc and do 6 rax reaper whatever which way you want to, and watch him defend it going 12 gateway. He asked you politely to try it versus him, why are you dodging?
Oh, that's right, you're either full of shit or you're terrible - probably both.
On April 30 2010 08:29 j4vz wrote: well, ill try all i can to get him to play you,
if you win you are my new hero.... your micro was good but i cant really judge from what i saw.... you vs clani would close the debate
:D
You are so clearly all talk. Play gmerc and do 6 rax reaper whatever which way you want to, and watch him defend it going 12 gateway. He asked you politely to try it versus him, why are you dodging?
Oh, that's right, you're either full of shit or you're terrible - probably both.
lol ?
i said i couldnt micro reaper like clani is... im toss... whatever...
Oh ok Oak is probably better than me but that doesnt mean im wrong and he is right... all the replay we've seen werent balanced matchup....
yea the platinum toss player isnt the best but look at the marauder to counter the stalker.... dont you think the bunker harass + the marauder to counter the 1st stalker is a lot of thing to deal with as protoss ???
im not saying u wouldnt be able to find a way as toss, but do you think it need a fix or something ?
its like day after day this rush is getting stronger and stronger...
The page 25 games would have had a different result if Terran built a seventh SCV while the Barracks was going up, put an SCV from gas back onto minerals, and pumped out a Marauder instead of his second Reaper.
Any build is counterable with a big skill gap in micro, but can we at least agree that this is broken enough to need tweaking? If the Terran player mined minerals in game 2, and built a Marauder in place of the second reaper, he would have won. Even though the Protoss player knew it a cheesy all-in strategy was coming, and came in with a plan to beat it, if the Terran player macroed a little bit better instead of ignoring his main entirely after the reaper came out, and built a Marauder, he wins.
I'd rather to see a replay of a game where the Terran player plays as well as the page 25 replays, except picks up a Marauder instead of the second Reaper while the Reaper plays keep-away, either killing Probes or kiting the Stalker and keeping hits off the Marauder. I don't play Terran at all, this just looks imba to me.
On May 01 2010 15:24 dew wrote: The page 25 games would have had a different result if Terran built a seventh SCV while the Barracks was going up, put an SCV from gas back onto minerals, and pumped out a Marauder instead of his second Reaper.
I agree with the above quote -- the maurader just shoots down the stalker or the pylon and then toss is screwed....
Agreed --- On 1v1 maps PvT -- P is forced to go Gate then cybercore -- otherwise loose to reaper rush. I always go for the cybercore and a chrono boosted stalker as fast as I can on 1v1 maps against terran -- I hate it when I do this and instead the terran go for a handful of marines and a tank
The terran play mind games -- they expect you to prepare for a reaper rush -- which can allow for them to do an early timing push with rines and 1 seige tank and your done --- hate it....
I cannot belive this apparent "pro player" orb winge thread got this many pages.
I watched your game, horrible micro, no probe management, given its a bad map to scout it on, but realistically most terrans badly place there rax over the edge so a simple scout around with a probe will see it.
It’s really not worth my time to explain anything to you as your very arrogant and bad mannered and cry excessive amounts.
Louder on page 5 or 6, said pretty much the exact way to counter this, you came back with its not a economically viable start to a game if they didn’t early rax.
bullshit it isn’t, learn to adapt and think quick you shouldn’t loose to a cheese reaper rush if you let ur games flow, but ur just cocky and foul minded to allow your brain to explore more openings.
ps. laughed at the "proven mathematically" you’re a fool
You should be able to chronoboost your units (ie. your zealot) to make them move faster. That way you can waste your chronoboost to try and hold off the reapers. It is temporary and the reaper would just run away to let it die off but in that time you would be able to work on a stalker.
totally didnt read all 27 pages.. 1-2 infact, so excuse me if this has been said already. Make zealot.. send zealot at terran... attack wall, reaper comes to attack, back off. then, walk right back up. force him to make another unit for the reaper to leave the base. If that doesnt net you enough time for a stalker you should uninstall. sorry.
On May 01 2010 19:58 Phokus wrote: totally didnt read all 27 pages.. 1-2 infact, so excuse me if this has been said already. Make zealot.. send zealot at terran... attack wall, reaper comes to attack, back off. then, walk right back up. force him to make another unit for the reaper to leave the base. If that doesnt net you enough time for a stalker you should uninstall. sorry.
You could've read the last 2 pages at least - what you are talking about is not the proxy 6 rax reaper --> marauder with bunker and whilst sending a spare zeal to the terran base would be great, that spare zeal simply doesn't exist.
Why are you guys still complaining about his 6 rax proxy rush as my previous post have suggested, if you just send out a scouting probe after 8 pylon, you have a full 60 seconds to find the proxy barracks and once you find it, just hit the scv for a little and infinitely delay the tech lab... easiest win in the world, you don't even have to worry about any of those reaper maradure getting out.........
On May 01 2010 20:21 Fangzhou wrote: Why are you guys still complaining about his 6 rax proxy rush as my previous post have suggested, if you just send out a scouting probe after 8 pylon, you have a full 60 seconds to find the proxy barracks and once you find it, just hit the scv for a little and infinitely delay the tech lab... easiest win in the world, you don't even have to worry about any of those reaper maradure getting out.........
your suggestion is that toss should go 8 pylon everytime against terran ?
lol just admit that this is broken....
in a map like lost temple the proxy rax could be at 4-5 different location... so that mean if u fail to find it in time you lose....
and if the terran isnt proxying then you start with a small disavatange...
nobody does (or should do) 6 proxy rax it's stupid as hell. 7 or 8 proxy rax is strictly better as it really is the same timing, the extra scv(s) pays off themselves before you start the rax anyway... Good scouting can stop these shenanigans really, if you see a proxy rax you can start your gateway faster and save up a few chrono's for your first zealot and stalker and you will be economically ahead. If you scout it well in time you can also position your probe next to the barracks to delay the tech lab for a bit. Most 2 player maps it's fairly easy to scout the proxy rax if you just scout on 9 with the probe that makes the pylon. The fast rax builds hurt the terran more then they do you mostly. Also stalkers with probes do fine against marauders without stim so when you make stalkers to counter the reaper the followup marauders really shouldn't be too troublesome. Also overall fast cybercore is always a good move against terran as it allows for fast robotics which is very often a good opening. So being 'forced' to go fast cyber all the time really isn't that bad.
I find that with that build, even if i get 2-3 probes with my reaper, as soon as that stalker comes out it doesnt even matter, because my economy is hurting, and he at that point can chrono boost probes and push your base with stalkers.On top of that, you have no unit production capabilities, so its tough to defend an early push. The only reaper build i actually find to be really effective is the turbo/bunker cheese.
So this just happened to me the other day and I thought I would post the replay.
Just noting that I didn't sacrifice my build order (12 gate) and I wasn't in the hottest position at first.
The Terran's Reaper gets his first shot off on one of my probes at 3:48, compared to your 3:44 and 3:35. At the time his shot was fired I had 17 probes compared to your 14 probes. When I got up in the Reapers face he had knocked off 3 probes I believe.
A stalker takes 42 seconds to even produce while a Zel takes 33 seconds! That's huge. Get your zel out to harass while bringing a stalker into the fight in my opinion.
EDIT: Just saw the other replay from the edit. Probe line hit at an improved 3:20 when you had 17 probes. Only thing I noticed was that there was a small mis-management of production. You could have had another stalker coming 10 - 15s earlier. Not sure if that would have been enough to kill those suckers and get around to start messing with the proxy shit.
Had this happen to me as well.. it's just.. well it's insane if you are going for a 12 gate you basically automatically lose, there is no way you'll recover. I think i handled it as well as could be expected, although in retrospect i should have pulled my workers away sooner when the bunker was done, and now i know that it is impossible to try to kill the bunker with workers, your probes just die too fast, its really terrible.
Sad thing is the second i finally broke the bunker and get him out of my base, his last shot kills my nexus, making it GG.
So the thing is, i did scout pretty early on and i knew what he was doing. Obviously i saw no rax (not even a depot for that matter) in his base and a gas with very few workers. HMMMM i WONDER what he could be doing?!?! lol.
But it doesn't change the fact that i was already working on a 12 gate and so theres really nothing i could do.
I guess vs terran, protoss MUST send a first worker to his base, maybe try to cannon rush him? I hate to cheese, but i guess you have to fight cheese with cheese? The fact is, stalkers are the only thing that will counter reapers early on. Sure you can chase him with 4-5 drones, and it is effective, but once that bunker starts going down, forget it, you lost unless you have something that can kill his SCV.
I guess i can't blame terran, protoss are a little overpowered at the moment according to blizzard, i think mainly due to void rays etc and the fact that marines get raped by basically everything that protoss has to offer except like immortals.
Any suggestions other than just scout with one of my first workers and cannon rush him if he goes super fast reaper? Will cannon rush even work? (im assuming if he pulls scvs off of minerals/gas he wont be able to do reaper rush, so even if it doesn't work, if it at least stalls him until i have stalkers out so his eco is screwed and he can't make reapers, it would have done it's job)
it seems these new reaper rush builds need somewhat of a re-balance .. anything that comes that early in the game shouldn't require such a drastic response as to change the entire match up.
except for epic scv rushes or something.
I don't know what you're doing wrong but I know that as a zerg player myself I don't get shut down by reapers at all, whether they're 8rax reaper 10rax reaper or otherwise. It only works if he manages to get the bunker up, which he shouldn't unless you're really not paying attention to your natural at all.
on another note, this was an INSANELY fast reaper rush, not a 10 rax, LOLOLLOLOLOLOL no. 6 rax my friends, he does not build a single worker, just bunker + reaper rush. First shot from reaper is at ~3:05
I find that my reaper rushes get deflected alot by skilled players.
Basically you're hampering yourself too much by skipping scvs, that your oppennent will ultimately win early game vs you because you got nothing in your base.
Reapers mostly works against lower skilled players, who are unaware of the concequences and counters of going a reaper rush.
How do you stop proxy fast reaper into into marauder on Scrap Station? Earlier it was suggested 8 pylon, scout, 10 gate, rush for stalker which takes care of reaper with minor damage (at least against bad reaper micro) then transition into immortals (to deal with marauders) and make a sentry to ff the ramp to buy time. The Scrap Station ramp is way too big.
Is the only option tech lab delay with probe after a successful scouting of the proxy?
on close maps i will 10rax and send 2-3 reapers along with my scouting scv.. if the p does not build a zlot it makes it easier for me to harass his econ but i also begin building a bunker with my scouting scv.. now if the p takes his probes off the line to kill my scv i can pick them off even easier with my reaper and usually the bunker finishes and its gg after that. even if the p makes a zlot i can out micro the zlot with my speed. The only thing that really stops me from killing 7+ probes is when he takes 5+ probes off the line and chases my reaper because they move just as fast as the reaper it becomes hard to get too many probe kills.
He isnt mining for that long of time.. Does it set him back enough to justify the reapers? if so it needs to be nerfed i think.
Oh also, I saw this in a korean game. Probably the BEST thing u can possibly do to stop this is to scout him early (after 9 pylon should be fine but i am unsure) and when you see his early rax/refinery build a pylon where his addon will go. Once he lifts his rax up you cancel the pylon and keep ur probe undernearth the rax as long as u can so that it cannot land. This will completely null the reaper rush. :D
On May 04 2010 20:21 Veetz wrote: [...] and when you see his early rax/refinery build a pylon where his addon will go. Once he lifts his rax up you cancel the pylon and keep ur probe undernearth the rax as long as u can so that it cannot land. This will completely null the reaper rush. :D
People are missing the point. 10rax reaper is not the problem, 6 rax is. The only way I have managed to defend is against bad reaper micro. Perfect reaper micro is unbeatable. If you can chase him away with the probes without taking too many loses, and manage to use the probes to A) kill SCV b) kill bunker c) form a wall blocking the reaper (my favorite) from entering, then you've won the game, but failing the terran's piss poor micro it is virtually impossible. It requires the toss player to be perfect, plan for it by 10 gating, and scout it.
On May 05 2010 05:10 mR.Waffles wrote: People are missing the point. 10rax reaper is not the problem, 6 rax is. The only way I have managed to defend is against bad reaper micro. Perfect reaper micro is unbeatable. If you can chase him away with the probes without taking too many loses, and manage to use the probes to A) kill SCV b) kill bunker c) form a wall blocking the reaper (my favorite) from entering, then you've won the game, but failing the terran's piss poor micro it is virtually impossible. It requires the toss player to be perfect, plan for it by 10 gating, and scout it.
I pretty much always 10gate on maps where 6rax is convenient and i've still yet to have a serious issue with the reaper rush. The marauder follow-up gets really nasty though. I've got a number of losses where i wasn't thinking clearly and built two stalkers instead of getting a zealot or sentry third and was consequently run-over by a couple marauders who came in after the reaper died.
Don't really care one way or the other if it's nerfed, but i would like to see games go longer in general.
Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot.
I wouldn't even mind the fast reaper but only if its commits the terran to be at a disadvantage if it doesn't work out and not overrun me with marauders 2 mins after. AND EVEN more if it would also be challenging micro wise on the terrans part. I feel like it does not only put the toss in a defensive position from the first minute of the game but its also way easier to micro a fast ranged unit against some slow probes + zealot.. if it would take both parties to micro heavily it would be fine. maybe just taking some range from the reaper might help?
On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote: Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot.
the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all)
On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote: Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot.
the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all)
He's not saying kill the entire base with one zealot. He is saying, use your zealot to force the reaper to defend while you get a stalker. I never thought of this, might try it.
On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote: Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot.
the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all)
He's not saying kill the entire base with one zealot. He is saying, use your zealot to force the reaper to defend while you get a stalker. I never thought of this, might try it.
why would he bother defending his main when he can lift and and kill everything you have with a reaper?
I'm also having problems with this. If not for this strategy, my W:L ratio would probably be about 80% but this strat alone brings me down to 65%. I'm not very good, but I'm trying to practice against this. I like the idea of scouting early and delaying his tech lab with a pylon.
How does it sound that the reaper's building time would be little increased, cost increased to 50 minerals 75 gas but that speed upgrade would come built in with the reaper?
On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote: Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot.
the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all)
He's not saying kill the entire base with one zealot. He is saying, use your zealot to force the reaper to defend while you get a stalker. I never thought of this, might try it.
why would he bother defending his main when he can lift and and kill everything you have with a reaper?
Because you'll still have a base and be making units/buildings? He won't lift off because of one zealot. He isnt going to say "OMG A ZEALOT!! LIFTOFF HURRY!!" He will either defend with the reaper and delay his attack on you or just let it do some damage. You'll still have the zealot. You'll be able to get a second zealot or a stalker in your base. It isn't some reaper/zealot building kill off contest. This isn't an all in strategy. Building a zealot is a pretty safe idea. I'm not sure where you're getting this crazy "I'll just build a reaper and lift off my buildings" idea
On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote: Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot.
the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all)
He's not saying kill the entire base with one zealot. He is saying, use your zealot to force the reaper to defend while you get a stalker. I never thought of this, might try it.
why would he bother defending his main when he can lift and and kill everything you have with a reaper?
Because you'll still have a base and be making units/buildings? He won't lift off because of one zealot. He isnt going to say "OMG A ZEALOT!! LIFTOFF HURRY!!" He will either defend with the reaper and delay his attack on you or just let it do some damage. You'll still have the zealot. You'll be able to get a second zealot or a stalker in your base. It isn't some reaper/zealot building kill off contest. This isn't an all in strategy. Building a zealot is a pretty safe idea. I'm not sure where you're getting this crazy "I'll just build a reaper and lift off my buildings" idea
why retreat when you have no reason to? by bypassing the reaper you let the reaper have free reign on your probes until you get a stalker out, assuming you can get one out.
with a proxy rax(which is what we are talking about), the terran has no defenses in his base, so yes, a zealot would essentially be racing a reaper, in which case all the terran has to do to beat you in that race is lift off.
On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote: Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot.
the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all)
He's not saying kill the entire base with one zealot. He is saying, use your zealot to force the reaper to defend while you get a stalker. I never thought of this, might try it.
why would he bother defending his main when he can lift and and kill everything you have with a reaper?
Because you'll still have a base and be making units/buildings? He won't lift off because of one zealot. He isnt going to say "OMG A ZEALOT!! LIFTOFF HURRY!!" He will either defend with the reaper and delay his attack on you or just let it do some damage. You'll still have the zealot. You'll be able to get a second zealot or a stalker in your base. It isn't some reaper/zealot building kill off contest. This isn't an all in strategy. Building a zealot is a pretty safe idea. I'm not sure where you're getting this crazy "I'll just build a reaper and lift off my buildings" idea
why retreat when you have no reason to? by bypassing the reaper you let the reaper have free reign on your probes until you get a stalker out, assuming you can get one out.
with a proxy rax(which is what we are talking about), the terran has no defenses in his base, so yes, a zealot would essentially be racing a reaper, in which case all the terran has to do to beat you in that race is lift off.
If he proxies, you'll get in his base, he'll get in yours. You'll be able to get a stalker out in decent time after the reaper like always and kill it, he'll still have nothing in your base. It isn't going to turn into a Reaper vs Zealot building destroying showdown. You'll kill his reaper after he takes out some probes, and you'll probably take out some scv's with your zealot. There isn't going to be a building destroying contest because you'll have units, and he will have units. It isn't going to be some all in strategy where he has to kill your nexus with his first two reapers or something. You're not massing zealots and sending them to his base, you're using your first one to hopefully delay his first reaper.
You'll stop the reaper after you lose some probes, he'll probably stop zealot after some scvs. However, if he doesn't proxy, he might delay the reaper getting to your base so by the time he does, you have a stalker out and can defend it without losing some probes. I'm not sure where you guys are getting this Reaper vs Zealot who can kill buildings faster. Yeah he might not have buildings in his base, but you're not going to be able to take down all the scv's and the command center with a single zealot. I dont see why any Terran would take the time to lift off, when he can probably kill the zealot with some scv's or send a reaper back to his base to defend.
On May 05 2010 05:43 STS17 wrote: Seriously, has anyone tried sending a chrono-boosted zealot into the opponent's base once they scout the 6 rax (preferably proxy)? He can't build marauders or extra reapers without using his initial reaper to kill your zealot.
the problem with the idea of racing a terran with a zealot is that they can lift off the command center, and unless you can get a stalker out and to the other side of the map(assuming the terran would let you do that in the first place, or you could get it before the command center went out of attack range, or assumming you could get your cybercore out at all)
He's not saying kill the entire base with one zealot. He is saying, use your zealot to force the reaper to defend while you get a stalker. I never thought of this, might try it.
why would he bother defending his main when he can lift and and kill everything you have with a reaper?
Because you'll still have a base and be making units/buildings? He won't lift off because of one zealot. He isnt going to say "OMG A ZEALOT!! LIFTOFF HURRY!!" He will either defend with the reaper and delay his attack on you or just let it do some damage. You'll still have the zealot. You'll be able to get a second zealot or a stalker in your base. It isn't some reaper/zealot building kill off contest. This isn't an all in strategy. Building a zealot is a pretty safe idea. I'm not sure where you're getting this crazy "I'll just build a reaper and lift off my buildings" idea
why retreat when you have no reason to? by bypassing the reaper you let the reaper have free reign on your probes until you get a stalker out, assuming you can get one out.
with a proxy rax(which is what we are talking about), the terran has no defenses in his base, so yes, a zealot would essentially be racing a reaper, in which case all the terran has to do to beat you in that race is lift off.
If he proxies, you'll get in his base, he'll get in yours. You'll be able to get a stalker out in decent time after the reaper like always and kill it, he'll still have nothing in your base. It isn't going to turn into a Reaper vs Zealot building destroying showdown. You'll kill his reaper after he takes out some probes, and you'll probably take out some scv's with your zealot. There isn't going to be a building destroying contest because you'll have units, and he will have units. It isn't going to be some all in strategy where he has to kill your nexus with his first two reapers or something. You're not massing zealots and sending them to his base, you're using your first one to hopefully delay his first reaper.
You'll stop the reaper after you lose some probes, he'll probably stop zealot after some scvs. However, if he doesn't proxy, he might delay the reaper getting to your base so by the time he does, you have a stalker out and can defend it without losing some probes. I'm not sure where you guys are getting this Reaper vs Zealot who can kill buildings faster. Yeah he might not have buildings in his base, but you're not going to be able to take down all the scv's and the command center with a single zealot. I dont see why any Terran would take the time to lift off, when he can probably kill the zealot with some scv's or send a reaper back to his base to defend.
ok, first off: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE 6RAX PROXY. this is the only thing we haven't found a true counter to yet. and no, you can't get a stalker out fast enough without losing half of your probes(id show you a replay of me testing it against a friend when i knew he was proxy raxing and altering the build for fast stalker, but alas... bnet is down for US and i can't find the replay... i'll find it when US comes back up and post it)
also, you're exactly right. you're not gonna take down any SCVs with a zealot. an SCV has the same speed as a zealot, so with proper micro, an SCV would never die from a single zealot, particularly in his own base. and a terran wouldn't send his proxy units to defend. that defeats the whole purpose of a proxy, particularly when he has a perfectly viable alternative if he sucks at micro: lifting off. why waste your whole proxy rush strategy when you can keep attacking and not worry about defending. saying "oh, he can send a reaper back to his base to defend" is a pointless argument, as there is more to lose by defending with the reaper than there is to attack with the reaper.
also, you're not gonna be delaying his reaper by sending a zealot into his base unless you yourself proxied. you zealot isn't going to make it to his base before his reaper comes out, so unless he sees your zealot run past his rax, he'd have no idea it was comming. so he wouldn't stop his reaper because your zealot was on his way to his base for two reasons: one, he proxied, so hes committed to his rush and second, he wouldn't know your zealot was on the way.
in addition, once he sees you have a stalker, or rather, are teching to stalker, as you would not have one out before the reaper gets to your base, the next unit he will make is a maurader, which would destroy the stalker, particularly if he gets the bunker down.
if 6 rax proxy reaper rush was actually unbeatable, i think i would actually see it used.. but i dont... maybe because i'm too high level of a platinum player and the tournaments i play don't have trash players...
guess lower tier players see this alot and have problems with it... i guess thats why they are lower tier players...
there are countless solutions on this figgen 30 page thread... if you still can't put 2 and 2 together then i dont think 6 rax reaper is your only problem... seriously...
On May 07 2010 03:55 NightOne wrote: if 6 rax proxy reaper rush was actually unbeatable, i think i would actually see it used.. but i dont... maybe because i'm too high level of a platinum player and the tournaments i play don't have trash players...
guess lower tier players see this alot and have problems with it... i guess thats why they are lower tier players...
there are countless solutions on this figgen 30 page thread... if you still can't put 2 and 2 together then i dont think 6 rax reaper is your only problem... seriously...
then enlighten me, since you're a better player than everyone in this thread who has been banging their heads together including orb to find a counter for this build, how do i counter 6rax proxy reaper? after skimming over the thread that ive read twice before i still can't find the 2 and 2 to add.
i have like 20 posts in this thread... i have already discussed 6 proxy reaper open... if you don't want to take the time to find it, i don't want to take the time to explain how this thread is completely out-dated now...
if you can't accept the fact that you'll lose a couple probes to a 6 rax reaper opening then maybe you should play terran and open 6 rax reaper every game vs protoss and see how far u go...
I had problem with this rush as well, and I have a solution for you if you play Protoss. Best thing to do is build everything by your Nexus and go straight for a stalker with CB. He will get into your base before the stalker is out, but it wont do nearly enough damage to make it worth it. As for Terran and Zerg it comes down to an early scout. If it's a 1v1 map you should expect some kind of cheese from your enemy and scout your main and just outside it to make sure nothing fishy is going on. It will set you a little bit behind, but at least you won't lose the game.
*edit* Also, I have a replay of a friend doing the 6Rax-Fast-Reaper build on me (I am playing Protoss). Yes I knew it was coming, but my build order and building placement would not have changed even if he wasn't doing this cheese. Notice how he stopped my mining for a decent amount of time, but after it was all said and done I had a lot more probes then he does and I lost minimal amount of probes.
Ah. I see what you're saying. I kind of like not having my stalker in time. I mean if we Protoss players manage to get it quicker in a safe economically viable way, what's stopping us from the Stalker becoming the new reaper for another race? Losing a few probes to a proxy is not that big of a deal in my opinion. Their economy will be just as horrid as mine is.
I like scouting with my 6th drone after one carry of mineral. In a 2v2 map, if you see 5 scv on mineral, just cannon up and you win. If you see him making a depot, attack it, and build to stalkers fast.
On May 08 2010 07:33 GoodNewsJim wrote: I like scouting with my 6th drone after one carry of mineral. In a 2v2 map, if you see 5 scv on mineral, just cannon up and you win. If you see him making a depot, attack it, and build to stalkers fast.
And if he went standard you've just put yourself in behind..
The point is to find a safe opening that doesn't leave you behind vs standard or reaper rush.
And even if he does proper proxy 6rax reaper the reaper should get there right when your first cannon warps in due to the early economic hit you took scouting that early (assuming pylon on 9, forge on 10 which is about as early as you get to scout him with your 6th probe after one mining cycle). From earlier discussions it takes 2 pylons and 4 cannons to completely cover your main from any reaper damage. Going this opening you have no units so he can keep that initial reaper alive which should force you to build all the necessary defense, then you can't FE behind cannon because he can just hang that reaper between your main and your natural until you get a very delayed stalker out while building himself an economy and transitioning to something normal.
On May 08 2010 07:33 GoodNewsJim wrote: I like scouting with my 6th drone after one carry of mineral. In a 2v2 map, if you see 5 scv on mineral, just cannon up and you win. If you see him making a depot, attack it, and build to stalkers fast.
And if he went standard you've just put yourself in behind..
This doesn't seem like a good option.
If you get to his base, and he has 5 SCV's, he is not going standard. Even building cannons will not negate a 5-6 worker advantage that early in the game.
EPT
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