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On April 03 2010 23:50 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 12:49 SirNeb wrote:
reapers are already pretty much useless, if you nerf it anymore, might as well just take them out of the game. They are pretty much just somewhat useful when the armies are very small.
I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese. First off, I have to disagree with you there. Maybe it's only because we're 2v2ing but often when I 2v2 random and get Terran I will mass reaper for fun. You can run into someone's base and 2shot a nexus with not too many of them and there's literally absolutely nothing your opponent can do to stop it. Every time I mass reapers I convince myself of how OP they are vs buildings. In any case, I don't think reapers need a nerf, I think the tech lab needs a nerf. They should put the cost back up to where it was and make it take like 10 seconds longer.
It's only the barracks tech labs units that seem to pop out too fast. Maras and reapers just come too quickly and are a little too strong for their timing/place in the tech tree. I'd definitely like to see some sort of rebalance with the barracks tech lab units or tech tree. I don't think nerfing tech lab time helps that much though because it hurts tanks/thors/ravens/banshees/battlecruisers as well. (ok realistically just tanks/banshees). It might work out ok, but I already feel like my tanks pop out really slowly.
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I experienced this build on me as a terran ... in a 2v2 ... in which I was also 8 pool ling rushed... yeah, I died. I wonder how much putting tech labs back to 50 gas would help in this situation. I'd test for the timings for myself, but I'm not at home for like another 4 hours. Off the top of my head I'm thinking it would maybe slow reaper timing down by like 10 seconds. This would reduce the window until the stalker comes out, giving you a more reasonable chance of pulling out even. If this is demonstrated as enough of a problem, blizzard may consider undoing the 25 gas change. This will also help a bit to delay those quick marauder timings that have been going around as well.
Edit: I don't think placing pylons in positions to block is a good idea either. If I were to do this build as a terran and saw this, assuming these pylons aren't by the gateway, I'd just kill the pylon powering the gateway. If that pylon goes down before the stalker gets in, it's over.
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yea you gotta remember terran makes great sacrifices to go fast reapers...
btw...what I find the hardest thing to fight against are mass marauders with few marines in them...
terrans I usually play go 1 rax expo then mass marauders out of around 4 rax...it is so annoying for me there is nothing toss can do to fast expoing terran...terran makes like 1-2 reapers then expand and start massing marauders...if I leave my base to harrass him..his 2 reapers come in to my base and annoy me..and with 1-2 bunkers at his natural there is nothing gateway units can do anyways...I am really lost what unit composition is good for marauders...if terran waits until I have templars with storm, I can hold it off but usually the mass comes in when I have a few immortals and sentries, zealots, etc... 
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The quick and cheap Tech Lab, with the slow and expensive Reactor thing they've tried in Patch 7 is a complete nightmare for early game balance. I'd expect some more changes in Patch 8.
I think they forgot about this scenario when they made the last set of changes. The GW and Rax have a similar build time, so do the Stalker and Reaper, but the Protoss needing a Pylon to begin the GW, along with a Cyber Core taking 25s longer than a Tech Lab, and the lowered gas cost of the Tech Lab, its no surprise to me there's this absolutely massive window of opportunity to play havoc in your mineral line with a Reaper.
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build a zealot and micro probes while you chrono your stalker. You seriously whining about this? good god
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switch main to terran and do the same thing to all tosses either to just quit toss or to see if anyone else defends it and learn from that
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On April 04 2010 05:04 sikatrix wrote:
build a zealot and micro probes while you chrono your stalker. You seriously whining about this? good god
my thoughts.
this is how people stop this when i do it.
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I have not read any of this thread, so sorry if this is a repeat or w/e.
I was watching garimto on http://tv.zeroboy.net/thsutleo and he went for 8 rax proxy on blistering sands (he put the barracks right below south tower, he spawned upper right. Went for 1 reaper to harass then into marauders to keep the pressure on. Toss player was sen and the reaper managed to kite a zealot to death taking no hits before the first stalker came out. Sen also lost a pylon to the reaper.
Sen eventually fended off the marauders with some sentries/zealots and just threw down 3 gates and no robo facility and ended the game through garimto's backdoor.
Didn't watch your stream, but probably you just saw the reapers and started raging about storm nerfs, etc. and forgot how to play 
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Imo you should buff the stats of reapers while bringing back the Merc Haven to make them slightly more midgame. Maybe give them another 10 HP and 1 armor or something (although I wouldn't mind nerfing their goddamn dmg to buildings). Complaints are from the reaper rush in TvZ btw which fucks your expo.
I think Marauder slowdown should be upgradable tbh. That or have it start with something like 20% slowdown and then upgrade to 50%.
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United States350 Posts
Hey orb. I've actually played you before with success with this cheese, and I've failed against other protoss with the cheese so badly that I've stopped doing it.
The key is a chrono boosted zealot chasing the reaper. Yes, it can never catch up, yes, the reaper can still snipe off a probe or even some probes while the zealot is chasing it. However, with decent micro from the protoss, the losses are limited to 2-4 probes, and then your chrono boosted stalker comes out - and then the reaper dies. And if the terran has sent another reaper up, that reaper will also die.
So yes, losing the 2-4 probes may be completely unpreventable. The terran IS cutting a good chunk of SCVs though - ends up being about 3-5 SCVs behind due to the awkwardness of going:
10 Barracks
10 Refinery
11 Supply Depot
In addition, if the barracks was placed closer to the opponent's base, the barracks can be pushed and lost. Additionally, the 1-2 reapers that are sent will also be killed off by 1 stalker.
As is with all cheese, the key is to keep cool and hold it off. The opponent's upper hand is a mirage and is temporary - he sacrificed a lot of economy to gain the 30 second window timeframe of superiority.
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It's worse when they go marauders rather than reaper. Your zealot will die to the marauder without ever getting a hit off before the stalker comes out and then your stalker will lose 1v1 vs the marauder as more come anyways.
Any more miracle advice?
Building a zealot doesn't help in the slightest when they do this with a proxy marauder rush and marauders build 10 seconds faster than reapers.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
It's impossible to stop without Forge as far as I am concerned. So... open forge first and pray that they've cut too many SCVs to keep up. (or you get a lucky cannon rush in on their 14CC). Not everything has to have a solution in beta, this is one of those times where there are no legitimate solutions.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
i don't know orb, i have to agree with the other people saying to get a fast zealot. i use 10/10/11 reapers extensively in 2v2s and 1v1s on certain maps and every single time my harass has failed it's because of a first zealot. by the time i finish killing the zealot the stalker is out, and if i choose to dodge the zealot while sniping probes the damage is limited by a lot. you can lose a few probes and still come out ahead economically. i play random (55-36 platinum) so i see both sides of this very often. my biggest gripe with pvt is still marauders over this.
edit: i think opening forge vs this if you know it's coming is already terrible, and going forge first in every pvt to prevent this is even worse!
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Strangely no one is proposing simple solution: lower the build time of Cybernetics core by about 15 seconds. This will help with both Reaper and Marauder issue.
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I get problems with this ZvT too, if anything losing the mining time by running workers is the biggest hit :|
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On April 05 2010 17:11 Lz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 05:04 sikatrix wrote:
build a zealot and micro probes while you chrono your stalker. You seriously whining about this? good god my thoughts. this is how people stop this when i do it.
Yup. End of story. While he is kiting your zealot just send 5 probes to cut him off / surround.
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When I saw this replay I thought of this thread straight away since it's the best example of the reaper rush that I've seen so far. I know from the tourneys they've been having over there that Furion is a very good Protoss player and he takes all the right steps of chrono'ing a zealot, pulling probes to help stop the bunker being built and then getting stalkers to properly deal with the reapers.
Anyway here's the link, just click on the underlined .sc2replay bit to download: http://playxp.com/sc2/replays/view.php?article_id=1933012
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As a mac user, I've only gotten to play beta a couple of times with friend's PCs so I'm sure I have much less experience with the game than many people commenting here.
That said, I'd suggest experimenting with 2 zealots out of your first gateway to counter fast reaper. The reasoning behind this is the fast reapers described in OP are sent to your base one at a time and with good micro, two zealots should be able to keep a reaper away from the probe line. Additionally, not rushing to stalker allows you to keep chrono on your nexus to achieve optimal probe production and help mitigate any probe loss from reapers that get through your zealot defense.
The timing works out such that you can get your 2nd zealot out at 156 s after your first pylon.
An obvious question that comes to mind is whether you put yourself in a position to get your first stalker out quickly enough after two zealots in case terran commits to a larger number of reapers. I'll be happy to test this as soon as mac beta comes out (fingers crossed for release sometime in April -> http://www.sc2bunker.com/2010/sc2-mac-beta-in-april/)
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On April 05 2010 19:07 -orb- wrote:
It's worse when they go marauders rather than reaper. Your zealot will die to the marauder without ever getting a hit off before the stalker comes out and then your stalker will lose 1v1 vs the marauder as more come anyways.
Any more miracle advice?
Building a zealot doesn't help in the slightest when they do this with a proxy marauder rush and marauders build 10 seconds faster than reapers.
WHOA and i thought we were just bitchin' about how op reapers were 
Dude stop crying: Get a forge if your that bad at sc2, otherwise l2micro probes and deal with one of the few advatages terrans have over you. Then use ur OP immortals / stalker / sentry / zelot/ templar and roll them over.
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EPT
