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On April 03 2010 03:01 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 02:59 jackofclubs81 wrote:
if u hold off the reaper ull have an advantage, they arent as imba as they used to be
use a zeal to buy time for ur stalker You don't need a zeal if you go 10/11 pylon/gate. That's the point. In the end you'll lose less probes (if any) and be in a BETTER economic shape than if you did 9/12 or 9/13. Your tech is also faster. I'm not saying 9/13 is bad, but I think it's got some risks.
you clearly didn't read the OP at all
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I´ve seen you testing on your stream, and it really seems a bit broken immo.
I think just 10-15 sec more build time for the terran could solve the problem.
For now, my only guess is scout early, 8 pylon and perhaps try to wall your drone line a bit, to get a few extra seconds. Else i really dont know.
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Hmm, I haven't encountered this fast of reapers before, but I guess while your core is building, get a zealot off. A zealot should be able to hold off a reaper for a good amount of time. Once the second reaper arrives, your stalker should arrive. So basically, if you scout a very fast rax with tech lab, and few SCVs mining, get a zealot up. If you can limit the reaper to just the zealot kill, you'll be at a significant advantage.
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On April 03 2010 03:21 Chairman Ray wrote:
Hmm, I haven't encountered this fast of reapers before, but I guess while your core is building, get a zealot off. A zealot should be able to hold off a reaper for a good amount of time. Once the second reaper arrives, your stalker should arrive. So basically, if you scout a very fast rax with tech lab, and few SCVs mining, get a zealot up. If you can limit the reaper to just the zealot kill, you'll be at a significant advantage.
How could you possibly figure a zealot will hold a reaper off?
The reaper will micro around in circles killing probes
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I think hes basically saying force the reaper to micro against the zealot while you get a stalker out. I am not sure how the timing will work out though.
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That wouldn't work. He can easily just micro away, and pop off shots at probes.
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And how many probes does the reaper need to kill to be ~even?
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My solution to handling it has been walling off almost completely around my gases / mineral line and getting a zealot out to chase it just long enough for my first stalker to come out ( chrono boosted ) I try to guess where the reaper is going to hop in with the zeal positioning, at best i can 2 hits off on it.
While he tries to go for my probes, I just pull them all to the nearest mineral patch to my zeal chasing him. On good days I'll lose 1 - 2 probes.
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marauders are op, more health and damage then anything in the gateway, with a 50% slow.
now here the thing, i feel its one of the few things keeping terran in the game, if you nerf it with out buffs in other areas the terran game is then broken.
but as for the reaper, if you get a zeal, its a free kill, a zealot will never touch a reaper, just like it will never touch a marauder. You can still kill probes with a zealot on your reaper, so its a moot point, and its just wasted minerals you need to save to get a stalker out.
Something needs to be changed, but blizzard doesn't seem to think things though, and we will have another broken unit.
the terran cutting workers isnt really as bad as the protoss cutting, as they have the mule to recoup some of the loss.
a tech lab nerf, even a slight gas cost increase might be enough to slow this down to get reapers out at the same time as a stalker first, i dont think that the reaper first harass into a bunker shouldnt be viable or too late, but it should have a downside to the rush, as it stands now, terran can then transition into a heavy marauder build with little to no downside, as the gas and tech lab is up.
a second option would be have an academy/merc haven, have this allow access to reapers with out a tech lab, costs minerals only and requires a rax to produce. you could take the dark shine approach and have it not house any upgrades, but in my opinion, it should house the marauders slow (150/100), reaper speed is moved to this building, along with another reaper upgrade i dont think spider-mines as thats a buff to bio and id like to see mech be viable, perhaps a range upgrade for reapers, or another upgrade.
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On April 03 2010 02:56 Floophead_III wrote:
I played with torch quite frequently, and he only opens up with this. I go 10 pylon/11 gate and chrono the stalker. It gets your stalker out not very much later than when the reaper shows up. I've experimented with 9 pylon 12/13 gate and I just found it too weak vs early aggression in any matchup. Protoss can be a worker behind for a little bit cause they'll catch up very very quickly with chrono. I've never had an issue with reapers. He can maybe kill 1-2 probes if he has fantastic micro, that's about it.
If you scout fast tech lab without a marine or are just unsure, save a chrono for that stalker, it makes a huge difference.
Yeah that's my take on it too. Particularly in game 1, you didn't have to cut tons of probes because of the "early" gate, but because you went 2 gate and had to therefore supply block yourself before the second pylon. If you hadn't you would've lost 2 probes but still had more workers than him (10 rax + orbital command... probably still means worse econ than your opponent).
I'd say that you might be a bit behind, but you now have one stalker to his 0 reapers, and if he sends more of those, great, you'll have even more of an army advantage. You'll get set back behind on econ, but I think it's the followup that you have to figure out, not the preventing of 2 probe deaths. (i.e. can you fast-expand off of 3ish stalkers after this? does chrono boosting your nexus exclusively get you back? is there a window to counter him since he threw away his 50mineral 50 gas reaper?)
This may not be a strategy you can pre-emptively counter, but I don't those 2 games are enough of a "proof" that going fast reaper = autoloss for toss.
I remember when in SC1 we had to pull freaking SCV's and even REPAIR our wall against dragoon fire, all while the protoss freaking fast expanded! =P
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Solution: Everyone go terran
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I play terran and got 1 reaper rushed, stopped the rush easily. It puts them behind by about 3 workers so they need to kill at least 3 to break even. The benefit is it sets them up for marauders which I eventually lost to from my own mistakes.
@mistermetal: nerfing tech labs for that would be dumb. They should just make it so you have to upgrade for them to climb cliffs and then buff them significantly because they are generally terrible the later the game goes.
Btw I suggest building your buildings alongside the cliffs to semi block that.
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Ya had this problem as well. Really fast orbital command from the 10rax gives quick mule as well so the scv cutting isn't as bad as it seems. Really a build time increase for reapers to where an 7pylon will have a stalker barely on time is a good choice. Terran is cutting scvs so being able to defend with a 9pylon would be ridiculous.
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if you scout with your pylon building probe, I think you can delay the tech lab if you stand there with your probe.
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I don't have the beta but isn't a solution to plant a pylon where his techlab should be and force him to lft or build a marine, and if eh lift block his landing sequence with your probe so he need to pull scv to chase your probe ?
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On April 03 2010 03:59 zizzefex wrote:
I play terran and got 1 reaper rushed, stopped the rush easily. It puts them behind by about 3 workers so they need to kill at least 3 to break even. The benefit is it sets them up for marauders which I eventually lost to from my own mistakes.
@mistermetal: nerfing tech labs for that would be dumb. They should just make it so you have to upgrade for them to climb cliffs and then buff them significantly because they are generally terrible the later the game goes.
Btw I suggest building your buildings alongside the cliffs to semi block that.
If you're terran it kind of defeats the purpose of you saying you held off the rush because you have the same units the reaper rusher has... my whole point is that protoss building times/tech times are way longer than terran's which creates an imbalance early game.
God it's like NO ONE reads OPs anymore
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On April 03 2010 03:16 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 03:01 Floophead_III wrote:On April 03 2010 02:59 jackofclubs81 wrote:
if u hold off the reaper ull have an advantage, they arent as imba as they used to be
use a zeal to buy time for ur stalker You don't need a zeal if you go 10/11 pylon/gate. That's the point. In the end you'll lose less probes (if any) and be in a BETTER economic shape than if you did 9/12 or 9/13. Your tech is also faster. I'm not saying 9/13 is bad, but I think it's got some risks. you clearly didn't read the OP at all
I'm telling you what I know from experience. I have never had an issue with reaper openings off 10 rax with my build. The only map I could see it being a problem on is DO but that map blows anyways.
I did in fact read the entire OP. I know the math doesn't add up well, but I feel like you didn't correctly figure in 10/11 gate, because the math should line up with what I see ingame. If you want I'll be more than happy to work with you on it ingame.
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Looking at game 1 again, the terran is really cutting a hell of alot of scv's to get this out.. he's cutting to make a barracks AND a refinery before resuming production (of one scv), and then starts his depot when he's supply blocked. And that buildorder seems optimized in terms of when you need the gas for the reaper etc. I don't even think terran comes out ahead if he kills 2 probes with this to be honest, you really need to play full games against this instead of just giving up cause your probes died I think =P. It's looking less and less like a great terran opening to me.
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SC1 had some stuff where you expected to lose scvs/probes/drones no matter what you did. How is this any different?
As for reapers preventing zerg FE... why should a zerg FE be guaranteed/safe? It SHOULD BE RISKY.
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You guys are making this into WAY to big of a problem: Lemme break it down to you:
To do a really fast reaper build a terran is sac'ing massive econ. Maybe 3-4 early SCVs don't get built to do the 10rax build. Therefore, to BREAK EVEN- the terran is going to need to kill 5-6 probes. Really whats winning the game for them is the psycological advantage of the harass, and that they get great scouting information for the first portion of the game. They know that keeping you in your base allows them to do what they please- in terms of tech, expo, mass econ, etc. As a T player, I don't do the super fast reaper build (anymore- i did it probably 10 games in a row vs toss and zerg when patch 7 came out) because of how bad it screws me economically. Its probably important to note that I'm a high ranked gold player (~10 right now), so I'm not the best player but I know my game.
The protoss are losing in this manner: I get my scout/harass on with my single reaper, keep them occupied and scout them techin to robo (to go fast observer, in almost every game) and either two or three gate. So i drop down a 2nd and 3rd rax and go mass marauder with no marines and 1-3 ghosts, have stimpack done when i get to their base, and roll them over with some solid focus fire. IF I WERE THE TOSS: A few zelots/stalkers/sentries + 2-3 cannons at the choke will stop my marauder rush cold, but noone does this. They all tech robo. My opinion for the toss to try (theorycrafting here ftw) is early forge (i know this is like super noob- but seriously top dudes you should just do this) and see where it leads you.
Another idea would be instead of keeping zelots close to ur main, put them where the Reapers jump up- Im sure somone has alerady said this, but its nto a bad idea. If your still having trouble- pull 3ish probes to chase the reaper and use good micro to get him cornered or force him to run away. For the record, the toss is SUPPOSED to take losses here, because he has such a big econ advantage (with chrono boosting probes and the terran just not building enough SCVs because of the early reapers), so if you can find away around the early reaper you will actually have caused significant damage to the terran's plans and put him way behind on econ.
my 2cents.
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EPT
