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On March 18 2010 02:22 Volshok wrote:
I agree with the OP actually. Even after you turret up all your expos and your base, you still have massive amounts of unused minerals because TvT is limited by gas. 5-8 Orbital Commands allow you to scan constantly, as well as MULE bomb/repair anywhere on the map.
I haven't actually tried this "mule bombing" it could actually be worth spending minerals on orbital commands , but it sounds hilarious  .
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In late late game you probably want to use only mules to mine whatever minerals there are left so you have more supply for units. If you are gonna mine out the map and you have not reached 200 supply yet, you can upgrade depots for free minerals.
I think this is actually a good idea but in moderation and only in late late game on a map with a lot of expansions and constant 200/200 armies
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As has been the case since BW, if you have extra minerals and no gas, you need to take additional expansions to get more gas.
Don't try to come up with creative ways to use your minerals...just get more gas!
edit: it's also possible you are using too many MULEs, giving you additional minerals at a time you don't really need them; try using scan more, and upgrading expansions to be Planetary Fortresses instead of Orbital Commands.
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Mule bombing is useful if you're in mid/late game going for the 4th mineral by using your original command center.
By then, the command centers should have enough energy for 2-3 mules which means you can spam a mule launch on each of the minerals right after you land. Then you can expand right after that by actually building a 4th cc on another expo without mineral blocking your unit production.
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scan, and mule dropping on tanks is pretty damn useful. But so are turret highways.
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I like the idea. If you have a span of time where minerals are not useful then OC is a great long-term investment. The free scans of course, and also the late game benefits as others have mentioned (no need for SCVs, you can quickly mine out a new expansion that is hard to defend).
The only thing is that I don't think there are really many times where minerals are not immediately useful or even necessary for something else.
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Energy regenerates at approximately 2/3 a second (correct me on this if I'm wrong).
You can drop 1 mule every 75 seconds, for a mineral intake of 3.7 minerals per second average.
So OC costs 550 for 3.7 minerals per second.
An SCV costs 50 minerals for 1 mineral per second.
SCV's are about 3.5x as cost efficient, and this is assuming perfect macro of the OC's.
I don't see the ability to scan more often as being a use of spamming OC's. If you want to scan more, don't use the mules so often. Unless you need to scan a huge number of times, its not going to help. The only benefit of the OC's is that Mule's are almost immune to worker harassment (since you spawn them for free), and cost no supply. They can also be used for other interesting tasks, but that cuts into your mineral intake.
I can't see it being worthwhile unless you KNOW that you don't need a huge mineral intake, and your production is limited ONLY by your gas and/or supply. In that case, it could be worthwhile. In an endgame situation limited by gas, it effectively would mean you have infinite scans plus you have an extra 40 or so food supply to play around with. In such a case, I could see this getting some use.
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just make marines; right now I feel like marines are cost effective against almost everything in TvT
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I think a lot of people are underestimating the sheer number of minerals you get in TvT. Even after you've built turrets around everything, you'll still have huge numbers of minerals. Barring some fort of 2 Rax Marauder push, TvT normally lacks back and forth battles that require troop reinforcement. It's a very slow match up, just like BW.
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On March 18 2010 00:59 Gretorp wrote:
I'm going to use this actually, but for scan.
I was recently playing kawaiirice in a 50 minute tvt where i had just about 100 gasish, but I had around 17,000 minerals. I think the additional scans will allow me to see what's up better, and if necessary bait fire of tanks with mule drops.
Thanks for the idea :-)
Training 300+ marines would've surely helped, even if they were just for cannon fodder.
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i think OP's got a good idea, building more OCs with extra minerals in late game TvT is a great way to increase army size (no need for mineral scvs) while continue to mine minerals. Also you get lots of scans (intel such as army position and composition and what your op is doing is crucial).
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So many bad replies... OP, this is a good idea when you are near-max, preparing for some kind of tactical move after the map is divided and those key one or two expansions are all that remains contested... wasting supply on mineral heavy units won't help, neither will more scvs, but a handful of extra scans is great. Command centers are expendable late game TvT, scan is definitely worth it.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On March 18 2010 00:54 Chill wrote:
I think spending the minerals on almost anything else would be a better use. You are spending minerals you deem useless to get more minerals more quickly. How is that productive?
Pretty much says it.
And no, you don't get the minerals you waste on those back, you will just be outmined faster.
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Well, lets run some quick numbers. All numbers are based on my memory of rough testing I did a week or so back, so some of them might be slightly off - if so, by all means correct me. However:
An Orbital Command regenerates 50 energy every 90 seconds or so; hence, an extra Orbital Command gives you an extra MULE - and thus an extra 270 minerals - every 90 seconds, which works out to roughly 180 minerals a minute.
An SCV mines about 40 mineral a minute; hence, an extra Orbital Command provides mining throughput equal to about 4.5 SCVs. The SCVs cost 225 minerals, while the Orbital Command costs 550 minerals plus 100 seconds of SCV mining time, which is another 66.7 minerals. Hence, the cost difference is 391.7 minerals, right?
Well, no, because the OC *provides* 11 supply while the SCVs would use 4.5 supply; hence, there's a swing of 15.5 supply in terms of how many Supply Depots we need. A Supply Depot takes 100 minerals to build, as well as 20 minerals worth of mining time from an SCV, for a total of 120 minerals per 8 supply; thus, each supply costs about 15 minerals to obtain, meaning the swing of 15.5 supply saves us 232.5 minerals. Hence, the Orbital Command really only costs us an extra 159.2 minerals.
(For purposes of these calculations, I'm ignoring the various ramp-up effects - the fact that the OC gets a MULE the instant it finishes, versus the fact that the SCVs would be done sooner and could start mining earlier. This tradeoff is too circumstantial to easily comment on in general, and, as such, is omitted - we're looking only at steady-state income once both are up and running).
Hence, the question is: what are the benefits of building extra OCs versus extra SCVs, and are those advantages worth the 159.2 mineral cost difference? Well, the fact that you actually use less supply so can have a slightly larger army means it's slightly more appealing as you near the resource cap, as is the fact that you have more energy you can reasonably spend on scans if you desire. On the downside, MULEs are more subject to harassment - if they come in and snipe 2 or 3 MULEs (or even just force you to run them away to avoid dying), you lose a lot more than if they snipe 2 or 3 SCVs.
So all in all: I'd say that as a general rule, it's probably not worth it. However, I can easily imagine situations where these factors would work out such that it is slightly advantageous to build the extra orbital commands. So as a generally useful strategy that one expects to do as a matter of routine? Probably not. But it's an interesting trick to remember nevertheless, as situations may arise where it's useful.
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On March 18 2010 08:21 Steve496 wrote:
Well, lets run some quick numbers. All numbers are based on my memory of rough testing I did a week or so back, so some of them might be slightly off - if so, by all means correct me. However:
An Orbital Command regenerates 50 energy every 90 seconds or so; hence, an extra Orbital Command gives you an extra MULE - and thus an extra 270 minerals - every 90 seconds, which works out to roughly 180 minerals a minute.
An SCV mines about 40 mineral a minute; hence, an extra Orbital Command provides mining throughput equal to about 4.5 SCVs. The SCVs cost 225 minerals, while the Orbital Command costs 550 minerals plus 100 seconds of SCV mining time, which is another 66.7 minerals. Hence, the cost difference is 391.7 minerals, right?
Well, no, because the OC *provides* 11 supply while the SCVs would use 4.5 supply; hence, there's a swing of 15.5 supply in terms of how many Supply Depots we need. A Supply Depot takes 100 minerals to build, as well as 20 minerals worth of mining time from an SCV, for a total of 120 minerals per 8 supply; thus, each supply costs about 15 minerals to obtain, meaning the swing of 15.5 supply saves us 232.5 minerals. Hence, the Orbital Command really only costs us an extra 159.2 minerals.
(For purposes of these calculations, I'm ignoring the various ramp-up effects - the fact that the OC gets a MULE the instant it finishes, versus the fact that the SCVs would be done sooner and could start mining earlier. This tradeoff is too circumstantial to easily comment on in general, and, as such, is omitted - we're looking only at steady-state income once both are up and running).
Hence, the question is: what are the benefits of building extra OCs versus extra SCVs, and are those advantages worth the 159.2 mineral cost difference? Well, the fact that you actually use less supply so can have a slightly larger army means it's slightly more appealing as you near the resource cap, as is the fact that you have more energy you can reasonably spend on scans if you desire. On the downside, MULEs are more subject to harassment - if they come in and snipe 2 or 3 MULEs (or even just force you to run them away to avoid dying), you lose a lot more than if they snipe 2 or 3 SCVs.
So all in all: I'd say that as a general rule, it's probably not worth it. However, I can easily imagine situations where these factors would work out such that it is slightly advantageous to build the extra orbital commands. So as a generally useful strategy that one expects to do as a matter of routine? Probably not. But it's an interesting trick to remember nevertheless, as situations may arise where it's useful.
Great post, but I want you to do one more calculation.
Calculate the effectiveness of this strat when your excess minerals are of absolutely no use to you at the time you decide to build the orbital commands due to gas restrictions and mass tanks.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On March 18 2010 08:21 Steve496 wrote:
Well, lets run some quick numbers. All numbers are based on my memory of rough testing I did a week or so back, so some of them might be slightly off - if so, by all means correct me. However:
[...]
So all in all: I'd say that as a general rule, it's probably not worth it. However, I can easily imagine situations where these factors would work out such that it is slightly advantageous to build the extra orbital commands. So as a generally useful strategy that one expects to do as a matter of routine? Probably not. But it's an interesting trick to remember nevertheless, as situations may arise where it's useful.
This is the perfect example of how you can contribute to this forum even if you are not a good player / not in the beta. (Not saying you are not, but this is the kind of post we need more from).
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i really think marines are what u need to build. massing marines really does some major dmg if u have like 3-4 medivacs. maybe don't even need that. gosh with 17k minerals...i would feel like i lost the game because i'm not doing something right haha. i would say in TVT though, it's really about thought, what ur opponent's strategy really is because there's many variations and ways to attack and the both of you really have the same capabilities. i think tvt is my worst matchup but it really comes down to the mindgames of the players. keeping micro/macro consistent is a must of course. if u find urself with more minerals that u need while all ur rax/fact/sp are queued with 2 production it's time to expand, or expand twice. it's more about map control in tvt than any other matchup as i've beaten a zerg with 3 bases vs my 2 but maybe he was just a bad player. just from my experience though, expanding and constantly keeping that food up is really key because ur gonna lose units that's for sure so u need to be able to compensate for losing those units and bringing out more units ASAP which means more rax, more space, more minerals and hopefully with ur careful expanding ur gas should be up there also.
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On March 18 2010 08:28 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2010 08:21 Steve496 wrote:
Well, lets run some quick numbers. All numbers are based on my memory of rough testing I did a week or so back, so some of them might be slightly off - if so, by all means correct me. However:
An Orbital Command regenerates 50 energy every 90 seconds or so; hence, an extra Orbital Command gives you an extra MULE - and thus an extra 270 minerals - every 90 seconds, which works out to roughly 180 minerals a minute.
An SCV mines about 40 mineral a minute; hence, an extra Orbital Command provides mining throughput equal to about 4.5 SCVs. The SCVs cost 225 minerals, while the Orbital Command costs 550 minerals plus 100 seconds of SCV mining time, which is another 66.7 minerals. Hence, the cost difference is 391.7 minerals, right?
Well, no, because the OC *provides* 11 supply while the SCVs would use 4.5 supply; hence, there's a swing of 15.5 supply in terms of how many Supply Depots we need. A Supply Depot takes 100 minerals to build, as well as 20 minerals worth of mining time from an SCV, for a total of 120 minerals per 8 supply; thus, each supply costs about 15 minerals to obtain, meaning the swing of 15.5 supply saves us 232.5 minerals. Hence, the Orbital Command really only costs us an extra 159.2 minerals.
(For purposes of these calculations, I'm ignoring the various ramp-up effects - the fact that the OC gets a MULE the instant it finishes, versus the fact that the SCVs would be done sooner and could start mining earlier. This tradeoff is too circumstantial to easily comment on in general, and, as such, is omitted - we're looking only at steady-state income once both are up and running).
Hence, the question is: what are the benefits of building extra OCs versus extra SCVs, and are those advantages worth the 159.2 mineral cost difference? Well, the fact that you actually use less supply so can have a slightly larger army means it's slightly more appealing as you near the resource cap, as is the fact that you have more energy you can reasonably spend on scans if you desire. On the downside, MULEs are more subject to harassment - if they come in and snipe 2 or 3 MULEs (or even just force you to run them away to avoid dying), you lose a lot more than if they snipe 2 or 3 SCVs.
So all in all: I'd say that as a general rule, it's probably not worth it. However, I can easily imagine situations where these factors would work out such that it is slightly advantageous to build the extra orbital commands. So as a generally useful strategy that one expects to do as a matter of routine? Probably not. But it's an interesting trick to remember nevertheless, as situations may arise where it's useful. Great post, but I want you to do one more calculation. Calculate the effectiveness of this strat when your excess minerals are of absolutely no use to you at the time you decide to build the orbital commands due to gas restrictions and mass tanks.
1. minerals are never excess
2. minerals are never of absolutely no use
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On March 18 2010 09:06 Rucky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2010 08:28 JTPROG wrote:On March 18 2010 08:21 Steve496 wrote:
Well, lets run some quick numbers. All numbers are based on my memory of rough testing I did a week or so back, so some of them might be slightly off - if so, by all means correct me. However:
An Orbital Command regenerates 50 energy every 90 seconds or so; hence, an extra Orbital Command gives you an extra MULE - and thus an extra 270 minerals - every 90 seconds, which works out to roughly 180 minerals a minute.
An SCV mines about 40 mineral a minute; hence, an extra Orbital Command provides mining throughput equal to about 4.5 SCVs. The SCVs cost 225 minerals, while the Orbital Command costs 550 minerals plus 100 seconds of SCV mining time, which is another 66.7 minerals. Hence, the cost difference is 391.7 minerals, right?
Well, no, because the OC *provides* 11 supply while the SCVs would use 4.5 supply; hence, there's a swing of 15.5 supply in terms of how many Supply Depots we need. A Supply Depot takes 100 minerals to build, as well as 20 minerals worth of mining time from an SCV, for a total of 120 minerals per 8 supply; thus, each supply costs about 15 minerals to obtain, meaning the swing of 15.5 supply saves us 232.5 minerals. Hence, the Orbital Command really only costs us an extra 159.2 minerals.
(For purposes of these calculations, I'm ignoring the various ramp-up effects - the fact that the OC gets a MULE the instant it finishes, versus the fact that the SCVs would be done sooner and could start mining earlier. This tradeoff is too circumstantial to easily comment on in general, and, as such, is omitted - we're looking only at steady-state income once both are up and running).
Hence, the question is: what are the benefits of building extra OCs versus extra SCVs, and are those advantages worth the 159.2 mineral cost difference? Well, the fact that you actually use less supply so can have a slightly larger army means it's slightly more appealing as you near the resource cap, as is the fact that you have more energy you can reasonably spend on scans if you desire. On the downside, MULEs are more subject to harassment - if they come in and snipe 2 or 3 MULEs (or even just force you to run them away to avoid dying), you lose a lot more than if they snipe 2 or 3 SCVs.
So all in all: I'd say that as a general rule, it's probably not worth it. However, I can easily imagine situations where these factors would work out such that it is slightly advantageous to build the extra orbital commands. So as a generally useful strategy that one expects to do as a matter of routine? Probably not. But it's an interesting trick to remember nevertheless, as situations may arise where it's useful. Great post, but I want you to do one more calculation. Calculate the effectiveness of this strat when your excess minerals are of absolutely no use to you at the time you decide to build the orbital commands due to gas restrictions and mass tanks. 1. minerals are never excess 2. minerals are never of absolutely no use
bad post
1.prove
2.it
If the usefullness is near nothing, it might as well be nothing. Sending marines or hellions against tanks with support is a huge waste of minerals. I already have enough marines for support. I don't need any more turrets. Now what? I do like collecting rocks....
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For all of you saying this is a bad idea I think he is saying to do it when you already have taken all the expansions you can, you are in a TvT late game where tanks, thors, and air dominate, and you have 1-2k excess minerals but dont want to use up supply.
Take a look at this game to see this situation, both players would have benefited from extra scans.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mhnyjzjkiyw
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EPT
