EPT[D] Spamming Orbital Commands - Page 4
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
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JTPROG
United States254 Posts
On March 19 2010 00:35 Chill wrote: Can you explain to me how this situation is any different than in Starcraft 1? We've literally never seen people spamming extra Command Centers in SC2 for scan, so why is it such a supposedly great move in Starcraft 2? I understand that scouting and sighting for Tanks is important, but it was important in SC1 too. You still have your 3-4 scans from your normal CCs as well as floating buildings and Turrets to spot for you as well. Besides the fact someone just said boxer has done this, I will reply. 1.Command centers in SC1 needed an add-on which took up more already scarce space and could not be lifted off with it (obviously), making it very immobile. 2.Comsat stations did not have the added bonus of MULEs, which is a bonus economic factor that partially makes up for the cost spent. Also, it can be used in place of SCVs for continued mining with lower supply limitations (for late game), not to mention MULE bombing, and quick resource boosts (can mine over 2000 minerals in less than a minute with MULEs). 3.The way tanks work in SC2 as compared with SC1 is much different, as you need sight to return fire, making scans even MORE important. 4.Tanks in SC2 are actually more gas-intensive than in SC1, leading to an even greater source imbalance. 5.Vultures (and mines) were actually useful in SC1 to spend minerals on as compared to hellions, in TvT. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
In addition, making the right unit is even more important in SC2, since the hard-counters are "harder" than SC1, so to speak. So you can't just use your extra minerals to spam marines/zealots/hellions/zerglings/etc., they are much less useful against their counters than basic units are in SC1. I think Terrans are MULEing too much, and ending up with ridiculous amounts of minerals, and very little gas. From what I can tell the OP is trying to find a 'creative' way to spend minerals (but I don't agree that making mass command centers is the way to do it). | ||
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Twilight Templar
99 Posts
As for OC's if it's lategame TvT you prolly already have 3-4 anyway so i don't see how you'll need anymore scans than that. One could argue however that mules bombs could be very useful. I can see it now, mules dropping from the sky as tanks move forward behind them. the defenders blow the shit out of the free mules and then procede to get their asses handed to them by the previously mentioned tanks. (that would be pretty epic to see) | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On March 18 2010 00:59 Gretorp wrote: I'm going to use this actually, but for scan. I was recently playing kawaiirice in a 50 minute tvt where i had just about 100 gasish, but I had around 17,000 minerals. I think the additional scans will allow me to see what's up better, and if necessary bait fire of tanks with mule drops. Thanks for the idea :-) Yeah... I think the most I've had is 14k, but anything over 1-2k while you have 0 gas is retarded. For people saying make marines... that's dumb. Marines suck ass TvT. I don't even bother making marines/marauders after the first 10 minutes of the game usually :D | ||
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JTPROG
United States254 Posts
On March 19 2010 01:38 Twilight Templar wrote: I'd just build more production so that if I lose my army i'll be able to rebuild it a 3 times the speed of my opponent. (this is of course assuming we're talking about 200/200 armies)He simply wouldn't be able to keep up with the production unless he also build multiple production buildings. As for OC's if it's lategame TvT you prolly already have 3-4 anyway so i don't see how you'll need anymore scans than that. One could argue however that mules bombs could be very useful. I can see it now, mules dropping from the sky as tanks move forward behind them. the defenders blow the shit out of the free mules and then procede to get their asses handed to them by the previously mentioned tanks. (that would be pretty epic to see) Production you say? The only production building that costs no gas is a barracks without a reactor. So you're saying you want to mass single-unit producing barracks to suicide your worthless marines at 3 times the speed of your opponent? Sounds like a stellar plan. | ||
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Perkins1752
Germany214 Posts
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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Steve496
United States60 Posts
Edit: I should add that that's 260 seconds from when OC finishes, hence 260 + 100 + 35 = 395 seconds - about 6.5 minutes - from when it started. | ||
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JTPROG
United States254 Posts
On March 19 2010 03:06 Steve496 wrote: Well, by my previous analysis: Orbital Command costs 550 + 66.7 lost mining time, Depot costs 100 + 20 lost mining time; hence, OC pays for itself via supply upgrade when you've gained 616.7/120 = 5.14 supply depots from it. The OC itself replaces 1.25, so you need to do 3.89 upgrades to pay for the rest. You can do one immediately, and then need to wait for 2.89 * 50 energy to do the rest, which takes about 2.89 * 90 = 260 seconds. So a little over 4 minutes to pay for itself via supply upgrades alone. The only thing to take into account with using it for supply, though, is that you actually need a depot to use the extra supply, making it slightly less effective over a short period of time. | ||
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Twilight Templar
99 Posts
On March 19 2010 02:14 JTPROG wrote: Production you say? The only production building that costs no gas is a barracks without a reactor. So you're saying you want to mass single-unit producing barracks to suicide your worthless marines at 3 times the speed of your opponent? Sounds like a stellar plan. If you had read my post you'd have noticed i said to do that only if at 200/200. So you wouldn't need gas for units since you're maxed out. (maybe upgardes, i dunno) read posts before spewing nonsense. | ||
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JTPROG
United States254 Posts
On March 19 2010 04:06 Twilight Templar wrote: If you had read my post you'd have noticed i said to do that only if at 200/200. So you wouldn't need gas for units since you're maxed out. (maybe upgardes, i dunno) read posts before spewing nonsense. Even if so, wouldn't you rather save the gas for units later, rather than spend it on factoriesi or starports to make those units a bit faster...? This still doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you will have a shit-ton of minerals and no gas though, so I'm still failing to see the point. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On March 20 2010 23:10 JTPROG wrote: Even if so, wouldn't you rather save the gas for units later, rather than spend it on factoriesi or starports to make those units a bit faster...? This still doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you will have a shit-ton of minerals and no gas though, so I'm still failing to see the point. You ever seen late late game TvT of SCBW? Terrans usually build a TON of factories. Especially when they are maxed. | ||
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JTPROG
United States254 Posts
On March 20 2010 23:22 Zoler wrote: You ever seen late late game TvT of SCBW? Terrans usually build a TON of factories. Especially when they are maxed. I'm not entirely discrediting you, but this isn't SCBW. lol. Plus, we must stay on topic, and that is that we have no gas TONS OF SPARE MINERALS which I suggest spending on OCs. I don't know how people got building factories out of spare minerals. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Supply is 135 minerals for 7 supply so 1 command center is 11/7 * 135 = 212 minerals. So real costs are OC: 400+150+100 - 212 = 438 minerals gives: 3.6 min/ sec of MULES payback time about 2 mins SCV: 50 minerals gives: 1 min/sec payback time 50 secs. So as far as minerals goes the scv is offcourse more efficient but in the lategame the fact they take supply can be relevant. Lategame it should be noted though that the real cost of a OC becomes more because you will have 200 supply anyway. Population efficiency is incredibly important though in a stale matchup such as TvT so being able to cut scv's by replacing them with extra OC's and mule power can be worthwhile. The point to start doing this, if it's usefull at all, is either at around 160/160 when the extra supply of those OCs is still usefull or latelate game when minerals are near useless. I can see a use for it in those situations where the map is divided half by half and pretty locked up, you should be having 3 to 4 OCs already though so don't generally need that much more scan's. There aren't a lot of mineral outlets in TvT but early on marines and later on turrets seem more useful. I just wish they added something to break tank lines more easily in the mirror, the defensive bonus from a tank is too big making TvT's so damn boring at times. Edit: On a sidenote this discussion should reveal that Fast expanding is quite safe in SC2 given that a OC pays itself back quite quickly even if it's NOT at your expansion. Expanding within your 'wall' is quite safe and even if your opponent keeps you in your base you can MULE and make extra scv's for your main till it's safe to float over to your expo. Given that your main can take up to ~26 scv's before being fully saturated this is quite effective. It's one of the reasons I think expanding as terran while at 20 pop is quite effective as a walled ramp can easily be defended against zerg and toss. Before colossi etc. roll around the expansion paid itself back even if you never actually floated it to your expansion! | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Gedrah
465 Posts
ADAM.1, what you say is true but the value of ALWAYS having a scan available is huuuge. Moreso than 11 Marines (550 minerals) per scanner, imho. As long as you have enough units, map control, and good position that your opponent can't walk over you, you can spend those minerals on a long-term investment like a Scanner energy tank (OC). | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On March 20 2010 23:52 Markwerf wrote: A scv mines 1 min/sec No, they mine 5 minerals/7 in game seconds, since that is the time you use for mules that must be the time you use for the workers. 1 real second in faster is 1.4 game seconds. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
If you aren't casting MULEs and still have extra mins something is really wrong with your game :/ | ||
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Gedrah
465 Posts
On March 18 2010 04:14 FortuneSyn wrote: scan, and mule dropping on tanks is pretty damn useful. But so are turret highways. Prove to Zerg you can place as many turrets around the map as he can hide overlords. >  Having massive excess of minerals from multi-OC mule mining can be a very good thing if your enemy even dreams of going air units. | ||
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