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Robotics Build
I don't have beta so I can't test this or provide a solid build order, but I want to see how robotics units do. In Brood War, barracks units got skipped in favour of factory units in TvT and TvP. What about skipping gateway units for robotics units as Protoss?
I'm pretty sure this'll work best against Terran since they don't have a solid all round air unit, though vikings might be a pain.
Basically, get up a quick expansion along with a robotics facility. Pump out immortals and colossi as your main army instead of gateway units. Against air, use two or three warpgates/gateways to pump either sentries or stalkers. Either that or use pheonix/voidrays.
Not really detailed but that's I'll I can imagine since i don't have a key =(.
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Ok i have some success with the following build. iam not platinum right now, so it would be fine if someone can test it out. Think the standart in TvZ will be Hellion MMM and Raven. Except the Zerg goes Muta then the build has to be changed.
Terran (MMM, Hellion, Raven) vs Zerg ( Roach, Baneling, Hydra, Ling) Midgame Fight
Basic idea: early reaper, expand, hellion+upgrade, defending until raven -> push while adding more baracks and researching seeker missile.
BO :
10 Dep
11Rax ( immediately Lab) -> 1x Reaper for harass and scout
11 Gas
14 Depot
15 Orbital Command
17 Expo ( after inital reaper just marauder for defense and researching STIM then SHIELD when money is available)
18 2. Gas
25 Factory + Lab ( Hellion upgrade) , pump 2-3 Hellion until upgrade is done
30 2 Rax for Marines
35 Starport ( 2-3 Medivac) not sure about the timing until fusion core is done
after Starport is done immediately Fusion core for HSM upgrade
Switch Starport to Factory Lab after upgrade and pump raven
Add Reactor to Factory and pump double Hellion
around 40 3. Gas
... Push with raven, hellion, marauder, marines ( 2 stim and shield done)
GG
works vs gold, lets see what you guys think of it when someone more capeable is playing
Edit: It works of course just vs expanding Zerg, every 1 Base roach rush ends my strategy pretty early. But zergs are greedy!
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Hello everyone,
I don't know if nayone sitll remebers me but I'm the guy that started that whole "Strong BO's" for individual maps movemnt for a while on Liquipedia I. Well now I have one for you guys I have had very good success with.
PvZ Forge First FE
(this is assuming you see something like a 12 hatch/14 pool/ no immediate rush), and of course constant probe production aside form a supply block you will hit for a min at 18 supply, and at 15 supply.
9: Pylon at choke
9: Scout
11: Forge
14: Cannon
15: Cut Probes
15: Gateway
15: Cannon
15: Resume Probes
16: Gas
17: Cyber Core
18: Nexus
18: Pylon
18: Warp Gate Research
19: Sentry (Chrono)
21: Gas
22: Cannon
22: Stargate
25: Stalker (Chrono)
25: Gas
Next: Twlight Council than Pheonix against mass roaches otherwise Pheonix
Follow up is chrono-boosted Phoenix harass, or Pheonix/DT harass if the Zerg turtles too long.
The build obviously does not work on maps without natural expansions or a semi-wallable choke.
Also the opening also depends on what you scout (or sometimes what you don't scout). Of you fail to scout the zerg right away or see a ling rush coming you would want to change the build to have the second cannon go before the gateway.
Here's my example of the wall that is optimal for this build on LT IMO. I put in in another thread but would love to have you guys try it out!
+ Show Spoiler +NOTE: All walls use the same order of cannons:
1: Nearest the plylon on the near ground
2: The other low ground spot
3: The high ground nearest the choke (assuming the opponent is not rying a zergling runby in which case swap 3 and 4)
4: On the high ground near the rampNorth:This might not be right, i think i messed up the forge position, will update esoon SouthEast:West:
Why it's worked so far: I guess I better explain why this actually works lol.
If the Zerg goes 6 pool or something you will have very early cannons but will not have the gateway to block. It's rough but you can possibly survive.
If the Zerg does a semi-early pool like 9-10 and tries a Zergling run by, it often does next to nothing because they are only able to get 1-2 lings in ur main for scout and annoyance by the time the cannons do their work.
If the Zerg does a late pool like 14-15 your gravy as you will get the expansion off easily, and could even delay the core until after the Nexus.
If the Zerg FE's, again you are gravy, as you will on par economy wise with him. If the Zerg FE's you can probably expand off of one cannon, forge, and a gateway.
If the Zerg does a one base roach bust, it's very hard to defend. One base roach play is probably the thing I have had most difficulty with. It involves using force field very effectively, and getting good use out of your first Pheonix to make the Zerg push before they would have liked to.
If the Zerg does a one base Roach/Hydra, you will have Pheonix's to keep the Hydra's pinned in the base. If they leave, his overlords die. I add a second stargate early against this, as they will not have enough Hydra's to defend against 2-4 Pheonix's at that point
If they go mass Hydra harass like crazy with Pheonix's, but only off one stargate. It needs to be chrono boosted like crazy but gateways + robo tech is needed. Using force field to split control groups of hydras is very effective
Let me know if it works for you too! 
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that clearly favors certian maps esp maps like lt with a nice cliff and tiny choke, I've seen terran builds similar except using bunkers and supply depots
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On March 19 2010 14:31 SarcasticOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 09:00 threehundred wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114689+ Show Spoiler +
THE T v TPZ STANDARD BUILD ORDER VS EVERYTHING IS AS FOLLOWS <3
Now I'm no Platinum Player, nor DO i actually have a BETA KEY (I play on my friends account that is in GOLD LEAGUE), I play about 8-20 games every few days and I believe I have about a 75% win ratio against most players at this 'matchmaking' level.
10 supply SCV finishes and scouts ASAP
12 barracks SCV finishes and builds supply wall (2nd depot)
14 refinery 2 SCVs on gas (don't take any off you need it for next few steps)
15-16 orbital command you should have exactly around 150 minerals and SCV just finishing
2nd supply around this time that SCV that built the barracks
1 marine usually against scouting worker
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MULE ASAP AND AS MUCH AS YOU CAN
18-20 command center all your economy at this point is waiting for 400 minerals to build a command center
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2ND BARRACKS
3RD BARRACKS
these 3 barracks should complete JUST in-time against some early game all-ins, or at least those that i've seen so far
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ENGINEERING BAY
1. bio is STRONG from start to finish against all races
2. early upgrades means TIMING PUSHES +1/+1
3. turret(s) deters dark templar rushes
4. turret(s) deters cloaked banshees when your orbital command energy is down from mules
5. PLANETARY FORTRESS EXPO strategy to follow
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2ND refinery
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(on your barracks obviously, you should have enough gas by now from harvesting earlier)
TECHLAB
REACTOR
REACTOR
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+1 ATTACK TO INFANTRY WEAPONS
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MACRO PRODUCE 4 MARINES AND 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOU CAN MOVE OUT
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SECURING YOUR EXPO AS YOU MOVE OUT:
Obviously your experience comes into play here as to how many units you need to defend this
critical movement.
Basic guidelines as follows:
If you scouted more tier one production facilities then he'll have more combat units PROBABLY as you move out. the number and timing of his units coming in obviously depends on his race, unit choices and building locations (proxy buildings too)
1. A spare SCV can run to his base if you want to be extra safe, or you can scan
2. land command center at natural and build a PLANETARY FORTRESS
3. I transfer about 6-8 SCV, someone will probably do the math on it one day
4. Build 1 turret at least and 1-2 bunkers
5. MAP CONSIDERATIONS
- double entrances should be scouted / visioned accordingly
- stronger choke points need lesser bunkers / probably no need for a planetary fortress if you want to be macro greedy with mules or ready with scans
Thoughts on planetary fortress:
It's just too good against most TIER 1 unit rushes during this timing. You can repair and micro your SCV and they'll give up on your expo and just try breaking your ramp which can be unit blocked by your ground army/walls anyway. Although it is NOT NECESSARY to have a planetary fortress if you scout a lesser early aggressive build anyway, most of the time just building it deters many early attacks anyway (especially stubborn players that choose to get slaughtered causing them to lose the game losing so many units)
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CONTINUE PRODUCING SCVS / MACRO WAVES OF UNITS 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOUR CHOKE POINT 'FEELS SECURE'
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+1 ARMOR TO INFANTRY
RESEARCH STIMPACK
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3RD refinery
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FACTORY
FACTORY REACTOR
STARPORT
STARPORT ON FACTORY REACTOR
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MACRO WAVES OF 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER AND 2 MEDIVACS
I usually push out after 4 medivacs, by that time +1/+1 and STIM should be done WHEN YOU GET THE ENEMY'S BASE/EXPO with MARINE shields to follow.
It's roughly 9-10minutes into the game when I'm at their front door or getting through the backdoor.
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From here either the game ends with me winning a timing push or winning map control. This same build has worked against all races so far, except some good roach all-in builds that get in through the backdoor that I've been working to be more weary of. The critical point of any FE build anyway is your lack of units to counter quick backdooring during your expo setup and I advise you change your builds on these maps. Like lol blistering sands with the stupid rock formation that is 10 units wide that allows 10 roaches in within the first 5+ minutes.
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Some race dependent deviations:
4TH BARRACKS WITH REACTOR or TECHLAB
- TvT i just mass more marines
- TvP techlab to get GHOSTS if he gets a quick colussus
- TvZ more marauders if he goes with banelings
FACTORY WITH REACTOR
- TvZ hellions work well to kite banelings and can be macro'ed just as well with 4 marines, 1 marauder and 2 medivacs, you can also macro this during your first push off of your 2 bases
STARPORT WITH TECHLAB
- TvZ mid-late game i think it's the must have AoE if he's better at macro, i've failed though remember to use Ravens effectively
is exactly the commandcenter -> planetary fortress build i use TvALL i opt for 2 barracks built right after the command center to keep up in unit macro, and you really won't be far behind in unit production anyway given most map timings i've found this to be very effective also =) im hardly a SC pro, but i have just won 6/6 using this (5 "practice matches" and 1 placement match)
i've scrapped using it though lol. i found it to be too general a build to be a bit stronger from start to finish. basically:
tvz: weak vs early roach
tvz: weak vs good baneling flanking and massive hydra macro
tvp: weak against collosus ranged upgrade timing push
tvt: extremely weak against fast siege aggression
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so i've opted for
tvz: siege fe into thor timing
tvz: hellion into cloaked banshee into expand
tvp: lol marauder early aggression into 4rax and ghosts and medivac drops
tvt: quick siege aggression
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On March 20 2010 10:37 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Hello everyone, I don't know if nayone sitll remebers me but I'm the guy that started that whole "Strong BO's" for individual maps movemnt for a while on Liquipedia I. Well now I have one for you guys I have had very good success with. PvZ Forge First FE (this is assuming you see something like a 12 hatch/14 pool/ no immediate rush), and of course constant probe production aside form a supply block you will hit for a min at 18 supply, and at 15 supply. 9: Pylon at choke 9: Scout 11: Forge 14: Cannon 15: Cut Probes 15: Gateway 15: Cannon 15: Resume Probes 16: Gas 17: Cyber Core 18: Nexus 18: Pylon 18: Warp Gate Research 19: Sentry (Chrono) 21: Gas 22: Cannon 22: Stargate 25: Stalker (Chrono) 25: Gas Next: Twlight Council than Pheonix against mass roaches otherwise Pheonix Follow up is chrono-boosted Phoenix harass, or Pheonix/DT harass if the Zerg turtles too long. The build obviously does not work on maps without natural expansions or a semi-wallable choke. Also the opening also depends on what you scout (or sometimes what you don't scout). Of you fail to scout the zerg right away or see a ling rush coming you would want to change the build to have the second cannon go before the gateway. Here's my example of the wall that is optimal for this build on LT IMO. I put in in another thread but would love to have you guys try it out! + Show Spoiler +NOTE: All walls use the same order of cannons:
1: Nearest the plylon on the near ground
2: The other low ground spot
3: The high ground nearest the choke (assuming the opponent is not rying a zergling runby in which case swap 3 and 4)
4: On the high ground near the rampNorth:This might not be right, i think i messed up the forge position, will update esoon SouthEast:West: I guess I better explain why this actually works lol. If the Zerg goes 6 pool or something you will have very early cannons but will not have the gateway to block. It's rough but you can possibly survive. If the Zerg does a semi-early pool like 9-10 and tries a Zergling run by, it often does next to nothing because they are only able to get 1-2 lings in ur main for scout and annoyance by the time the cannons do their work. If the Zerg does a late pool like 14-15 your gravy as you will get the expansion off easily, and could even delay the core until after the Nexus. If the Zerg FE's, again you are gravy, as you will on par economy wise with him. If the Zerg FE's you can probably expand off of one cannon, forge, and a gateway. If the Zerg does a one base roach bust, it's very hard to defend. One base roach play is probably the thing I have had most difficulty with. It involves using force field very effectively, and getting good use out of your first Pheonix to make the Zerg push before they would have liked to. If the Zerg does a one base Roach/Hydra, you will have Pheonix's to keep the Hydra's pinned in the base. If they leave, his overlords die. I add a second stargate early against this, as they will not have enough Hydra's to defend against 2-4 Pheonix's at that point If they go mass Hydra harass like crazy with Pheonix's, but only off one stargate. It needs to be chrono boosted like crazy but gateways + robo tech is needed. Using force field to split control groups of hydras is very effective Let me know if it works for you too!
Ei, is this Worm proof? I've seen Oystein try this and he got a worm inside his base...
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I'm going to revoke my previous build and say that banshee rushing in tvt is now extremely unreliable. I heavily suggest marine frenzy or a really safe siege build into timing push.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Ok, I think I can spare the time to finally go back and clear the back log. LP account is up to Platinum Rank 14 now, so we're legit 
On March 05 2010 23:56 BeyondCtrL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Terran FE using Planetary Fortress
I've been brainstorming about the Terran metagame and how a lot of the Terran build involve bio builds going off of one base timing attacks. They work really well, but I think mech has a lot of unnoticed potential due to the heavy gas requirements. The BO I am trying to make work is a standard opening for a Terran against both Protoss and Zerg that can withstand early pressure and maintain an early expansion.
So far this is mostly theoretical and I have tried it on Lost Temple (probably the best map there is, imho) and the timing of it seems practical. So bear with me while I list the BO and my reasoning.
10 SD
12 Barracks
14 Refinery (1 SCV on gas)
15-16 Barracks should be complete and you should have about enough minerals (don't make SCV until you can afford it) to start a CC in your base and start pumping marines (don't upgrade Barracks yet, CC at 15 if don't use SCV scout, 16 with scout) + wall off (if pssible).
19 Add 2nd SCV to gas and pump SCV + Marines (ratio depending on early pressure)
22 Add 3rd SCV to gas start construction of an Engineering Bay and Orbital Command
Now once your CC is done lift of and float to expansion and you should have precisely enough gas and minerals to start upgrading it to a PF. Compliment it with two bunkers (on LT one on the juttting ledge and one right next to the PF against the ramp. You should have enough marines to fully or nearly fully occupy both bunkers which will both cover each other supporting your PF and makeing run-by's extremely tough. This should be about 6-7 minutes game time. That much firepower at your door (coupled with repair) should stave off any attack at that point in the game. Adding another bunker if you want for a total of 12 marines. Line SD's infront of your bunkers and PF to counter banelings.
Now you are at a cross-road of choice here. You can opt for 3-4 gas to go heavy mech (for Zerg I would imagine, and recommend getting reactor SP asap for 2x Viking for Overlord sniping and try to force the Zerg to go Hydra instead of muta. And keep those Ovies away from your base to stave off any Nydus surprises (can use Radar Tower if you want). If you manage to stave off the mutalisk and force the Zerg to Hydra you can mech up with Siege and Hellions.
or...
You can go a bit easier on the gas and go for MnMnM's
Regardless of what you choose the marines you have will help stave off any all rushes (hopefully) of ground and air (remember to constatly produce marines until you have a Factory and SP. And by 10 min ingame you should have have a fully operational and hopefully unbreakable front door. They key element is basically getting air-superiority to force your oppenent to come to your front door. Or if they are passive the econ boost will allow you to field a large army of gas expensive units and upgrades allowing you to push with a ground force supported by vikings and tanks and control the map.
I realize this BO is quite rusty, but I think with practice the timings and BO could yet further be improved.
Tried this. Against Zerg, it unfortunately doesn't work against mass Ling openings because he just rushed in when he saw that I was taking my expo, and literally raped everything (Planetary Fortress was still building). You just can't fight off mass lings. If he's going for a Roach opening, it might be doable though. It's a very careful balance. Even if you pull a ton of SCVs, the fact that you're down so many SCVs + you don't have the extra MULE from the Nat CC hurts you far too much.
Against Protoss, I had some great success with this against any Templar builds that skipped the Robo. Unfortunately, once I had a guy go for a quick Colossus push, and I had a lot of trouble pushing that back. Thankfully he mismicroed and I got the Colossus, but it was tense for a while. However, I think I could have blocked the Colossus better. Might be possible TvP.
I'd like to note though, that this is very map dependent. Kula's Ravine, he can kill the rocks and there's nothing that I can really do. Blistering Sands, same deal. Lost Temple, Protoss can proxy a pylon and warp in units above the cliff, brings a Colossus up the cliff, and it's hard to push that back. Zerg might be able to Nydus worm, but I'm not sure. Doable on Steppes of War though .
On March 07 2010 09:00 threehundred wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114689+ Show Spoiler +
THE T v TPZ STANDARD BUILD ORDER VS EVERYTHING IS AS FOLLOWS <3
Now I'm no Platinum Player, nor DO i actually have a BETA KEY (I play on my friends account that is in GOLD LEAGUE), I play about 8-20 games every few days and I believe I have about a 75% win ratio against most players at this 'matchmaking' level.
10 supply SCV finishes and scouts ASAP
12 barracks SCV finishes and builds supply wall (2nd depot)
14 refinery 2 SCVs on gas (don't take any off you need it for next few steps)
15-16 orbital command you should have exactly around 150 minerals and SCV just finishing
2nd supply around this time that SCV that built the barracks
1 marine usually against scouting worker
-----
MULE ASAP AND AS MUCH AS YOU CAN
18-20 command center all your economy at this point is waiting for 400 minerals to build a command center
-----
2ND BARRACKS
3RD BARRACKS
these 3 barracks should complete JUST in-time against some early game all-ins, or at least those that i've seen so far
-----
ENGINEERING BAY
1. bio is STRONG from start to finish against all races
2. early upgrades means TIMING PUSHES +1/+1
3. turret(s) deters dark templar rushes
4. turret(s) deters cloaked banshees when your orbital command energy is down from mules
5. PLANETARY FORTRESS EXPO strategy to follow
-----
2ND refinery
-----
(on your barracks obviously, you should have enough gas by now from harvesting earlier)
TECHLAB
REACTOR
REACTOR
-----
+1 ATTACK TO INFANTRY WEAPONS
-----
MACRO PRODUCE 4 MARINES AND 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOU CAN MOVE OUT
-----
SECURING YOUR EXPO AS YOU MOVE OUT:
Obviously your experience comes into play here as to how many units you need to defend this
critical movement.
Basic guidelines as follows:
If you scouted more tier one production facilities then he'll have more combat units PROBABLY as you move out. the number and timing of his units coming in obviously depends on his race, unit choices and building locations (proxy buildings too)
1. A spare SCV can run to his base if you want to be extra safe, or you can scan
2. land command center at natural and build a PLANETARY FORTRESS
3. I transfer about 6-8 SCV, someone will probably do the math on it one day
4. Build 1 turret at least and 1-2 bunkers
5. MAP CONSIDERATIONS
- double entrances should be scouted / visioned accordingly
- stronger choke points need lesser bunkers / probably no need for a planetary fortress if you want to be macro greedy with mules or ready with scans
Thoughts on planetary fortress:
It's just too good against most TIER 1 unit rushes during this timing. You can repair and micro your SCV and they'll give up on your expo and just try breaking your ramp which can be unit blocked by your ground army/walls anyway. Although it is NOT NECESSARY to have a planetary fortress if you scout a lesser early aggressive build anyway, most of the time just building it deters many early attacks anyway (especially stubborn players that choose to get slaughtered causing them to lose the game losing so many units)
-----
CONTINUE PRODUCING SCVS / MACRO WAVES OF UNITS 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOUR CHOKE POINT 'FEELS SECURE'
-----
+1 ARMOR TO INFANTRY
RESEARCH STIMPACK
-----
3RD refinery
-----
FACTORY
FACTORY REACTOR
STARPORT
STARPORT ON FACTORY REACTOR
------
MACRO WAVES OF 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER AND 2 MEDIVACS
I usually push out after 4 medivacs, by that time +1/+1 and STIM should be done WHEN YOU GET THE ENEMY'S BASE/EXPO with MARINE shields to follow.
It's roughly 9-10minutes into the game when I'm at their front door or getting through the backdoor.
------
From here either the game ends with me winning a timing push or winning map control. This same build has worked against all races so far, except some good roach all-in builds that get in through the backdoor that I've been working to be more weary of. The critical point of any FE build anyway is your lack of units to counter quick backdooring during your expo setup and I advise you change your builds on these maps. Like lol blistering sands with the stupid rock formation that is 10 units wide that allows 10 roaches in within the first 5+ minutes.
------
Some race dependent deviations:
4TH BARRACKS WITH REACTOR or TECHLAB
- TvT i just mass more marines
- TvP techlab to get GHOSTS if he gets a quick colussus
- TvZ more marauders if he goes with banelings
FACTORY WITH REACTOR
- TvZ hellions work well to kite banelings and can be macro'ed just as well with 4 marines, 1 marauder and 2 medivacs, you can also macro this during your first push off of your 2 bases
STARPORT WITH TECHLAB
- TvZ mid-late game i think it's the must have AoE if he's better at macro, i've failed though remember to use Ravens effectively
is exactly the commandcenter -> planetary fortress build i use TvALL i opt for 2 barracks built right after the command center to keep up in unit macro, and you really won't be far behind in unit production anyway given most map timings
This one unfortunately suffers from the same map problems as the first one does. I also encountered a really interesting early immortal timing push done against me while I was lifting my Planetary Fortress out. I had a lot of trouble holding it off and had to pull SCVs. Caught me off guard.
TvT I didn't get to try it, but I know that this build is a serious dice roll on many maps. The opposing Terran can easily take a gold mineral expo and out macro you pretty hard. Another danger I've found on Kula's Ravine and Lost Temple is the threat of a Tank drop above the cliff to snipe the Planetary Fortress. I know that there are a lot of abusive Tank positions on a lot of maps actually
Didn't get to try it out TvZ yet. My theory is that Zerg will snipe rocks if they can. If not, then they'll fast expo to a gold mineral field.
Just a general note on all Planetary Fortress FEs - if the opposing player expos to a gold mineral field, it's bad news for you  . It's even worse against Zerg since they can take expos really easily vs T/P if you aren't aggressive.
On March 07 2010 12:37 blith wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Baneling Opener (ZvTbio) 10 Overlord 10 Pool 9 Extractor 8-11 Drones 100% Pool 6 Lings (11-14) 14 Baneling Nest (should have enough minerals+gas right after pool - also try to hide tech behind mineral line) Lings hatch - scout, deny scout, harass, contain etc... Save 150 minerals - Queen (13-15) Save Minerals/Gas 100% Nest - hide 5 lings and morph Banelings for ambush, leave 1 ling to scout and lure. Overlord Drones 100 gas Lair Power Drones with Inject Larva 50% Lair - 2nd Gas Power Drones 100% Lair - BURROW then- proceed to mid-game by expanding, and/or hydra/spire tech) Just been doing this the last few games and its worked out so far, so I just want to share it with you guys . Its not perfect, but I like Banelings and its just a good change from all the roach openings. Important Notes: HOPEFULLY he'll expect a roach rush if he spots your quick gas, try to kill the scout before putting down nest. Early lings to sort of panic the Terran, and more importantly: denying information. You can pretty much wipe out his army if you are in a good ambush position. But like I said some Terrans may not even suspect Banelings. If he turtles in 1 base and pushes out later - you'll have burrowed Banelings waiting for him. Make sure you scatter your banes though, so if he happens to scan in front of his base that he doesn't find all of them (burrow 2 outside his choke, burrow the other 3 further away). In mid-game you can expand freely and do whatever you want . I go for spire so I can see whats up. Hope this helps people, if not I'll work on it.
One word. Hellions. I didn't even test this and I'm sure that it'll fall prey to a Hellion Rush, which is pretty damn popular right now.
On March 09 2010 14:17 obesechicken13 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
6 probe
.... dunno what after
Mass archon zealot vs zerg with phoenix to lift off pesky hydras running away or broodlords above cliffs. The idea is that in SC1 even though melee units (zealots) were stronger straight up against some ranged units (dragoons) the dragoons would just run away and shoot, being really really pesky, and the zealots would all be like wtf!
Now when things run away, you use antigravity and SC2's superior spell casting system, to abuse the raiders phoenix's ensnare antigravity ability so if your opponent runs, they lose half their units. Archons do higher damage vs bio, and zerg don't have emp, so I think the strategy should work better vs zerg. They also shoot psi storms now afaik, so take advantage of it and neglect ht altogether.
Thanks for this thread!
Archons really, really suck, and that unit combo you mentioned just falls flat against Roaches.
On March 09 2010 19:41 threehundred wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
i just went straight to platinum in 2v2 because of my 9-1 record in placements playing as LOLZERG.
the build and plan was simple
10 overlord
13 pool
12 drone
13 extractor
3 on gas till 100
build drones till 16/18
build queen
build overlord 18/18
take drones off gas at 100
build 2nd hatch beside main
research speed
pump lings and overlords cut drones completely
when you have about 20 lings with speed just go all-in and destroy their nexus/commandcenter/hatchery and rally your hatcheries with lings pumping
strategy: hit and run, never engage units unless you know you'll win, just kill the main resource gathering things and you'll run over them in the next few minutes
bottomline is, the placement matches are pretty noob anyway, so if you want that lol-platinum division rank under your 2v2, im pretty sure zerg has it the easiest.
2v2...? I don't play 2v2 Placement matches are kind of fail in the first place. And err... I don't think FE builds are popular in 2v2, or maybe it's just me.
On March 10 2010 10:41 brocoli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
PvP Sanctuary
Get assimilators fast. They are a part of the wall, and they cost only 75 minerals. Besides, you will need some gas.
Do some micro vs the first zealots, but make sure you come back to block the holes behind mineral lines, etc.
use every single building to protect your probes. You are teching to cannons ASAP.
mind you'll probably lose a pylon. replace it preemptively.
Start building a few sentries & stalkers from the inside. Then place cannons.
Finally, if this madness works, tech to something. Phoenixes are a good opener vs robo.
I.. er.. Assimilators as part of a wall in? I don't get it. I really don't get it.
I stopped there. I know there's a lot of builds I still haven't gotten to, but I'll test them out after I get home from school today.
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Played arround with 14 nexus today:
9 pylon
14 nexus -> scout
no timing on gateway. Scout and decide but usually build it at 15 and use chronobost on gateways instantly.
16 pylon
@100% gateway. Cyber
20 pylon
@100% Cyber. robotics + warpgate
25 pylon
@100% robotics use all of your chrono boosts for immortals to counter marauders.
(Add lots of warpgates coz your economy will be awesome)
I am really new and got beta yesterday so have like 15 matches played but i see all do like a 1/2 gate tech now days and thought it would be fun to test this out. Would truly love some response on this.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On March 11 2010 07:08 quirk wrote:
Fast hydra/lair rush/build
This is a build that I am experimenting with. Because of time constraints I would like some feedback/testing from better players(I am in the bronze league). I haven't tested it enough so the timings might not be correct.
The build(basic zerg opening):
9 Overlord
10-13 Drones
13 Extractor
12 Pool
100% Extractor send drones
100% Pool build Lair - My idea/hope would be that when the pool finishes you have 100 gas.
Maybe it isn't that necessary to get exact amount/timing.
After starting lair - make zerglings/drones as necessary, you could also expand at this time(I expanded).
100% Lair build Hydra den and a queen
Mass hydras after....(I know that this isn't really a good goal, but this is as far as I had thought)
I know the build isn't that detailed, but would like some feedback/replays from better players. The most obvious problem would be early rushes, because so far when I tried this build I had very few defenses (Mostly powered drones).
Thank you for your time/feedback
I tried this once and didn't like it at all. Hydras aren't THAT good in ZvX. Plus you sacrifice economy to get Hydras out faster, and I had a noticeably worse economy than with something like a Roach build. Hydras themselves don't really threaten a win either . I found it hard to do really anything with the Hydras, and I had to race to get my economy back up to par.
On March 12 2010 01:07 ArC_man wrote:
Multitask intensive harass build TvZ:
I wanted to do this for a while but I'm on a business trip and I can't play any games for 2-3 weeks so all I can do is theorycraft =(.
Basically it's just an add-on to the hellion opener except for faster hellions and a transition into reapers. Theory behind it is since zergs are kinda forced to block the hellion opening with roaches on the ramp, you might be able to exploit their mineral line by immediately teching to reapers. So essentially you will get reaper harass at their mineral line and hellion harass at their ramp.
The build would be
10 rax
11 depot
11 gas
11 orbital
2 marines (try to use them to deny scouting drones and lings as much as possible)
1st 100 gas goes to factory (normally you can squeeze a 3rd rine in the 10depot/12rax build but you're really short on minerals with this build so you barely get enough minerals for a factory at 100 gas)
2nd 50 gas goes to reactor on rax
immediately lift rax and build a tech lab after reactor is complete
keep pumping hellions and maybe build 4ish reapers (not too sure about the number).
With the 10/11/11/11 build, you get 2 hellions 30+ seconds faster than the standard 10depot/12rax build, this alone will probably throw off a lot of zerg's timings. I wanted to see if reapers could create any more havoc or if they arrive simply too late to do anything if zerg already has too many units. It would require a lot of multitasking (reapers, then hellions, as well as macroing).
An alternative to harassing the mineral line with reapers is to target the natural hatchery (but be within range to just jump into their main if the roaches come down). This forces the zerg to make a decision of either coming down to get ur reapers (and potentially allowing hellions up his ramp and reapers up his ramp also) or just letting his hat die. If he charges down with a few roaches and still has some blocking his ramp, you could run your hellions away and jump your reapers into his main to harass his mineral line. You could even bring your first 2 marines to help kill the hatchery.
Of course this won't outright kill a zerg, but hopefully you can cripple him enough as well as expand yourself and then just roll him afterwards with m/m (of course if he's going 1 base it won't be as effective, I'd still like to see how well it works against 1 base though). Almost like Bisu's corsair/dt multitask harass =P.
I tried this on Blistering Sands, and I really liked it. My opponent went Roaches, but I'm not sure how well this will do against the mass speedling opening that's been popular lately. Speedlings become impossible to micro against on creep :/
I really like this idea, since it can transition wonderfully into anything if the initial harass ends up not doing too much. Since a lot of the current maps used have easily abusable cliffs, reapers can end up being fairly strong. I ended up getting just two reapers and four Hellions, then I switched tech. Still, speedlings on creep scare me big time...
On March 12 2010 02:43 See.Blue wrote:I am not in Beta and have no key so I can't write you up a specific build order, but I would be enormously appreciative if you could test (or someone could theory-craft-shoot-down) a TvP Metal + Marauder/Ghost (w. Raven in lategame, gas permitting) build that would aim to approach the matchup similarly to standard SC:BW matches. The tanks, protected by salvageably, leapfrogging bunkers of marauders (with slowing attack) with ghosts on the front lines ready with EMP would give you map control, allowing yourself to slowly push the Protoss while simultaneously enabling you to take an extra expansion or two as seen fit by the player. PremiseThis build capitalizes on three things: + Tanks in SC2 have both higher DPS and greater range than their SC:BW counterparts (See this thread) + Ghosts with EMP absolutely annihilate Protoss forces, and, as icing on the cake, neutralize Immortal's special ability. + Bunker's are rapidly salvageable (I think for 100% return) StrategyThe idea behind the build would be similar to Vulture + Mines + Tank from SC:BW. The major problems with this being effective in SC2 are generally thought to be lack of spider mines/vultures to deal with Zealots (particularly now sporting charge) and Immortals. To deal with this, I would love to see a Terran try to do the good old fashioned Tank line leapfrogging (preferably +1/ ) supported by a few scv's constructing bunkers (say 2-4 at any one given point in time, blocking off as much of the frontal approach to your tanks as possible). These would house marauders who would be aimed at keeping zealots/stalkers off of your tanks (their slowing attack would also probably give your tanks time to get an extra shot off. Either ravens or a flying barracks or something would be necessary to give you enough vision (particularly up cliffs) to prevent stalkers blink-bombing your tank line from out of sight/up cliffs. While setting up this push this would give the terran player time to expand; the only thing the T would have to be exceptionally careful of would be backstabs and protoss switching to air while his troops are committed to the tank line (ie from Warp Prisms or Colossi). However, with BW level scouting and perhaps even forgoing one MULE for a prescient scan mid-to-late game scan (which so far has been rarely seen in SC2), preventative measures could be taken in time to render any of these fairly ineffectual (a handful of vikings for example to deal with voidrays). Lategame, Ravens would probably be quite useful for autoturrent support/worker harassment and point-defense-drone (effectively D-Matrix) support for either your ground or viking force. ConclusionsThe main purpose of this build is to take away the Protoss' options both in terms of unit selection and map movement. This would be a micro/macro intensive build and would require constant scouting throughout to make sure the Protoss isn't committing to air (which is a winnable battle for the Terran if seen coming in advance, and would represent an enormous commitment for the Protoss) or trying to warp in DT into the opponents base. In fact a handful of 'patrol vikings' would probably be handy just to discourage warp prism/colossi cliff-walking shenanigans. In the end however, the Protoss is forced to try to break your marauder/tank/ghost line, which, with proper micro should hold against a food-equivalent Protoss ground force. Feedback/thoughts? Also, thanks again liquipedia guys for doing this!
I found this hard to execute. Tank/Marauder/Ghost is really gas intensive, so I had barely anything left over to get Vikings for anti-Colossus. I ended up getting rolled by Zealot/Colossus/Immortal since the Tanks just splashed the Marauders after the Zealots were up close. Colossi didn't help with their 46 damage shot. The bunker concept is novel, but I found it rather tricky to execute. They also didn't help all that much I felt
I don't think I gave the 2nd and 3rd ones enough time to fully work out the timings that each build would entail.
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PvT, preferably on Steppes of War or other small 2 player map.
7th probe goes out, make a pylon around 9/10 as near T's natural or close to his big ramp.
Chronoboost 9th probe, you will stop production at 10 for a while. Save next chronoboosts for Zealots.
9th probe goes out to place a Gateway.
Now the important part: the idea is not to just proxy-gate chronoboost-zealot rush him. When your 7th probe reaches his main, his supply depot will be finishing most likely. Since SCV's hp got nerfed horrendously, harrasing a working SCV will cause T to pull SCV's to defend. This should actually make you about even or ahead in working peons. Abuse rapid shield regeneration - fight 1 on 1, run and wait till your shields are back up. Your second probe should be in his base before he completes his Barracks, which means he will have to pull LOTS of SCV's to not lose immediately by you denying his Rax. Time the second gateway, chronoboost zealot and 3 probes FTW.
I think T is fucked if he goes 10 Supply -> 12 Rax at his ramp because of huge distance between his CC and harrased workers, also he probably won't get to wall-in properly and will have to fight Zealots head on. Also, if he goes rax first the idea is basically the same, however I would skip second gateway and tech/expo in my main instead, aiming for huge slowdown caused by early Probe harrasment.
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1st of all i want to sorry about my bad english but I hope u wiil understand what i write.
Hello everyone, i have good strategy for terrans. Hope u will test it and like it, cas i dont have a beta key, so i couldn't try this tactics with humans. And.. Hope some1 will give me a key, if my strategy will dominate the ladder.
Its strategy for terran.
9th worker makes supply, then he makes barracks. and now here goes our trick - we make engeneering bay as fast as we get 125. thats done to prevent any scouting from the enemy. on wide ramp (lost temple) we block it with EB, Rax, supply. on narrow ramp (desert oasis) we make just rax and eneneering bay and we build supply near minerals geeting some economic bonus.
and remember - dont do any scouting. we dont need it. cas our plan will counter everithing. how? read further.
if u have wide ramp - then put barrax in mid of it, EB on other side, and supply at other side - put supply at place where enemy will have most troble running through it after blowing supply up with banelings. behind supply place factory (or other building).. the pass must be blocked fully (in situation where supply destoyed, so if no - put behind supply any buildnig u want with 850 (EB) or more hp.
why we make eneneering bay? just cas we need to block the ramp, and EB is cheper then 2nd rax. we need attachment to rax, but placing attachement at ramp is not good.. and also we dont need enemy to see what attachment we make. so place 2nd rax in mid of your base. also after an enemey sees EB he ll go to panic. he be asking what we make? fortreess rush? or fast expand with planetary fortress? we do none of it.
after we block the ramp (and no scout passed) we quickly place two gases. if scout by some miracle passed - make gas anyway.. cas i dont see other options here
then we make 3 rax with techlabe and 1 starport. for starport we make reactor. and then we start produicng only marauders and vikings. we ll also need to lift off starport once to make techlab and build 1 raven. dont go without raven. make all grades for marauders (attack and defence from two engeneering bays and stimpack). and no upgrades for viking.. we ll need also armory. dont for get to place 1 turret at mineras and 1 at entrance to your base.
that u can try, but that isnt the perfect tactics. the perfect part is only blocking ramp with rax and EB and then placing two fast gases. (dont forget orbital station, sure, after rax is complet)
after that u can make banshee or nukes, but i dont know what is best. so for now i reccomend marauders and vikings+1 raven. i ll think more what is best.
Also blocking ramp with EB and Rax prevents all fast rushes so its extra safe, but also good economically and has big varaities of what to do next. u can go foretres rush, FE with PF, or go fast tech.
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I have beta and I know this build wont work, general idea is still good.
Terran Fast Hellions to Doom Drop (vs Zerg)
I present this build idea to the community, I do not have beta and do not know exact timings, help would be appreciated.
This build was inspired by Day[9]'s commentary on the fantasy build vs zerg.
Goals behind build:
- 4 goals of build
1. Get a few (4) hellions out ASAP and harass with them
2. Tech to Starport+reactor and get out 6+ Medivacs
3. Two pronged attack. Doom Drop Zergs main with 6+ full medivacs while sending a few hellions to natural.
4. Expand During attack
The build (so far) (Any help from people who actually have the beta is asked.)
10 depot
11 gas
13 Barracks (only a few marines, the less, the better, I suggest 1)
? orbital
17? fac
18? depot
? 2nd rax (While the factory is building, cut SCV's possibly)
? reactor addon for first rax (While the factory is building, cut SCV's possibly)
? 3rd rax (While the factory is building, cut SCV's possibly)
? 2nd gas
? (switch fact and rax for reactor addon, get 4 hellions and move out, after the 4th hellion switch the reactor back to the barracks for marines) (constant marine production)
? port (before first 4 hellions are finished)
25 depot
? tech lab addon for 2nd rax (pump marauders)
? tech lab addon for 3rd rax (pump marauders)
? reactor addon for port (pump medivacs)
? stim
? +health? (not sure if it's good to even get this.)
? depot
? depot
? depot
? Command center
From 25, constant marine, marauder, medivac production, use the factory without addon to make a few hellions .
Goal of the fast hellions in order of importance:
-Map control, if you have hellions on the map, he wont want to move out, so even if he did go for early roaches, he usually wouldn't be able to try and break you with them in fear of retaliation.
-Scout, specifically if he stayed on one base or not, what is he teching to if he is? (obviously get turrets if this is the case.)
-Drones, Nom nom nom free drones, don't lose all your hellions though.
Extra strategy:
-Try to drop first and sneak hellions in just after opponent notices drop. Most newbs will recall their whole army to their main. (1hotkey for army newbs)
- If contained, sneak hellions out with a drop, then return to main and load up for the doom drop.
-Again, if they are containing you (which is pretty much a win for you with this build) build extra defenses and prepare to pull scv's / mules.
-He has too many units fighting you off in main? medEVAC outta there! you should still have hellions doing dmg in natural.
Things to note if you are going to try this build:
-Prevent scouting, 1st marine should be enough to kill any overlord.
-Switch factory and barracks for reactor. This means showing the factory with your wall off depots, this is ok.
-You are surviving until early midgame with just marines and 4 hellions, be wary of attacks and don't be afraid of having to make a bunker & pull scv's.
-The goal is to both produce medivacs and enough units to fill the medivacs in the same amount of time. Another barracks might have to be added into build.
Possible improvements:
-Incorporate hellions with upgrade in drop
- 2 barracks with reactors w/ 1 tech lab instead of vice versa.
Summary of build:
The entire goal of the build it to get a doom drop in the zergs main ASAP. You get an extremely fast factory and use it for a few hellions & map control. While dropping you expand to continue play.
Edit: I was thinking of just posting it like this in strategy, but maybe with your help we can make it a full fledged build!
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When will the build results be entered in liquipedia 2?
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I meant to build every building Really Really close to the workers, so as to completely block the mineral patch entrance from at least one side. I was just madness from my part, but the funny thing is that I've seen this used effectively recently on a 2v2 with ZPvsTZ
P started at bottom-left so the mineral patch was open top-left and right. He build an assimilator, 2 gates and 1-2 pylons in the right side, and a pylon and a cyber-core top-ish, so T had to go all the way around P's base to harass workers, so he could just defend the base opening with a few units, and his ally's speedlings could defend better too (since they would surround T's forces)
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On March 24 2010 16:00 Mystlord wrote:I found this hard to execute. Tank/Marauder/Ghost is really gas intensive, so I had barely anything left over to get Vikings for anti-Colossus. I ended up getting rolled by Zealot/Colossus/Immortal since the Tanks just splashed the Marauders after the Zealots were up close. Colossi didn't help with their 46 damage shot. The bunker concept is novel, but I found it rather tricky to execute. They also didn't help all that much I felt
Haha ok, fair enough. Thanks a lot for testing it out anyways!
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Idea! Why not en corporate an extra queen in to your regular BO for ZvP and ZvT to make just creep and then later on be switched into a queen that leads the charge/ supports the charge for your army by healing them and doing lots of damage to lots/ colossus? I know the creep making queen has been mentioned but I was wondering if every BO that the zerg can do(including 2 hatch muta) that isn't 1 base turtling can work with this.
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I don't have a beta key, sadly. But, I can still dream up some random strats/BO's...
just a brainstorm, take it as you wish :D.
ZvT, 'breaking' the terran wall. Hey, instead of attacking that supply depot, why not prevent it from building with.... creep? Ovie creep spawn paired with quick lings? Probably not doable, the next one seems better.
ZvT+P, creep tumor vs natural expansion. More practical? Exactly as the name suggests, a queen spawning a creep tumor on the natural of your enemy. Follow up by multiplying that tumor.
this is just a random thought:
Smokescreen spincrawler rush. Build a spine crawler in the smokescreen, using the early game drone scout, w/ an overlord overhead, then advance it behind the mineral line. get units to knock on the front door, and force him to split his attention
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On February 23 2010 17:05 Imperator wrote:
The Liquipedia Team has gotten a beta key. We are asking you, the users, to provide your brilliant BOs for us to test out against the world! Please be as specific as you can.
Hi there!
I would like to see an all-in Terran mech build against all races, quite similar to a Flash build in the sense that it uses early upgrades for the mech units to kill enemies faster, and require good micro for the Hellions and siege tanks. Here we go:
1. Do the wall-off with supply depots and barracks with tech labs. Get marauders/marine in small amounts, --> 3 marines 1 marauder for early defense.
2. Go for mech build by placing refinery, factory, and double armory for fast vehicle upgrades.
3. Build hellions and siege tanks. Of course you have to stagger building (step 2), upgrades, and unit production (step3) so as to not get caught off guard by cheese/rush.
4. Build ghosts for EMP (only against Protoss, if against Zerg you may consider omitting this step)
5. Since hellions can be built in large amounts due to this build and the fact they require no gas, use them for scouting instead of using the orbital scan. Build missile turrets around mineral line to detect stealth attackers. This way, you can use the energy to call down endless hordes of mules to boost income for macro. Needless to say, hellions with missile turret is good counter against DT rush.
6. Build starports with reactors and macro vikings for air defense, earlier if enemy make for early air raid. Mass vikings solve the problem of mass broodlords, mass collossi, mass voidray, mass mutalisks, and mass banshees for the Terran player. Since armoury also have teran ship upgrades, your vikings will be wtfpwn against air units.
7. Did you notice I don't use any Thors? Well that is because I think the pathing for Thor is a bit tough to micro, and they get killed so easily unless you have SCVs accompanying, but this will also block the other units' pathing. Due to this factor, I think Thor is worthless.
So, in a nutshell, you now have a force of hellions as meat shield, siege tanks to lay the smackdown, and vikings to guard air/harass, all with very fast upgrades. At this stage I guess you can crush opponents now? I really really hope this gets shown in future VODs.. and that the commentators will show it on youtube.
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1base Hellion/Marauder timing attack
Saw this in a thread and liked it, not sure how viable it is at the top but I've beaten rank #1 gold players with it.
10 depot
12 rax
13 refinery (3 on gas when it's done)
15 OC
1-2 marines (make more if a rush is coming)
tech lab
2nd barracks
@ 100 gas, Factory
@ 50 gas, pre-build reactor on the 2nd barracks
@ 100% factory & 100% reactor, lift factory and put it on reactor core
2nd tech lab on 2nd barracks
Pump marauder from 2 rax, pump hellion from reactor factory
Attack when you have either 4 hellions or 6 hellions. Depending on what opponent is getting and how effective your attack is, you can either expand or tech to starport (e.g. if you see mass roach then get banshee, if you see hydra then get infernal pre-igniter upgrade, if you see mutas switch factory onto a tech lab and get armory for thors, if you see mass spine crawler then expand, etc.)
This seems to be very effective on maps with a hard-to-defend nat, i.e. scrap station, desert oasis, to a lesser extent kulas ravine. If zerg did an FE, this attack will come before mutas if they went spire, and will come right as they begin hydra production if they went hydra den.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/wlu0s3.jpg)
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