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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
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lIlIlIlIlIlI
Korea (South)3851 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On March 03 2010 10:15 randomKo_Orean wrote: biterrrrrrssssss lol  Is that supposed to be the half cut off part of [aaarrrr]biterrrrrrssssss? If so, I'm sorry, they were removed  I can try a mothership build though or something if someone is willing to come up with a way to get there without dying | ||
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Dex4's Feedback Build - It doesn't work because Overseers start with 50 energy, and once you get the first one, any subsequent ones will just spam the changeling ability to remove the threat of feedback. Stimmmed's FE Banshee rush - I can't find a way to hold an early expo without compromising the banshee timing. Once Protoss gets Observers, all he needs are some cannons at each expansion line and it's hard to get any harassment in, especially if Protoss gets Blink for his Stalkers. Your Banshee gets surprised and they end up dying. Bosu Build - Have not gotten a chance to test this yet. Whenever I spawn Zerg I always end up on something stupid like the space one that's like Paranoid Android or LT. (Spawned twice) eNyoron's Forward Rax - Again, the only TvZ I played was on that Desert map that's like Raid Assault. Not exactly the best map to test this. buKe's Ghost Terran build - Too gas intensive. I can't produce mass reapers, nor can I get a minicontain on the Zerg. Speedlings just rape that so hard. -fj-'s Ghost Build - Not exactly sure what this is supposed to accomplish. Could you tell me how I can support 200 gas ghosts? Is this harassment? PS - Did not get to ItsBigfoot's Void Ray rush. It seems a little luck based though. You're betting that Zerg won't go for an aggressive ramp bust build. | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
10 - overlord 13 - pool 15 - extractor 16 - (right before pool finishes larva comes out) overlord 16 - (100% pool) queen 18 - roach den 18 - extractor x2-4lings 100% queen - Lair 20/22 -26 - roaches 26 - overlord 100% lair - burrow If you do not sacrifice your first 2-4lings to scouting and harrassment your roach count will be 4 not 6. From here it depends on what you want to do, mass roaches need the speed upgrade but you shouldnt have to expand but can hydras will need a den then an expansion (air units will keep you in your base) mutas will need a spire then an expansion (make sure to pump lings with excess minerals)(against terran a baneling nest is extremely helpful to distract the marines and mauraders while you snipe medivacs) | ||
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MiyaviTeddy
Canada697 Posts
13 pool (gas when pool is about 90%ish done, before could be better) 15 overlord 14 queen, 4lings and 1 roach warren this is probably the most universal zerg build, safe too I find. | ||
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Mente
United States288 Posts
At the moment these are the only builds I've been really defining and polishing as I'm incredibly frustrated with protoss and zerg seems extremely similar to that of sc1. 2 of my terran openers start like so: 10 rax 11 refinery (build this as soon as you can after 11th scv comes out and throw 3 on gas immediately) 11 orbital command 11 supply depot 12 scv 12 marine 13 fact 14 scout (check for marine rush and here's usually where things change) You're looking for gas mainly and how many marines he has already. If 4 plus siege tank and siege mode are your next goals as well as a bunker with the additional marines you're producing. If he's "fast gasing" (most of the time it's not nearly as fast as this build so here's where we get the advantage) I like to go for 1 port banshee harass into a timing push with tanks and thors. Timing push with banshee and thors: need to build 3 marines up at your ramp while teching, usually third comes out on 20~ for me. 17 supply 18 gas star port as soon as factory is done+ factory tech add on. Usually finishes around this time~ Lift off factory for star port to take tech addon. Build banshee. 23 depot 24 factory tech lab addon 25 ebay and then build 1 maybe 2 turrets 25+ tank/siege At this point with a solid harass from the banshee you can not only scout but potentially do a lot of damage and slow whatever he's doing down massively. Continuing to pump marines/tanks. At 2nd tank, throw down armory. Should have 3 tanks before armory finishes and then build 1 thor and a cc. Push out with 3 scvs the 3 tanks and 8+~ marines and thor. Either the game will end here with some good micro or you'll have the opportunity to expand again and mass up. Star port continues to be used to make additional banshee's to scout and kill off his siege tanks or make vikings for anti air. When he's massing marines: If your scout sees that he's massing marines, prepare for a siege expand or delayed harass, but wait for the attack. Keep the tank far enough away from your ramp so it doesn't get hit. Siege should finish around the time the attack comes. Normal timings as before but using the gas/minerals that you would have for a star port is now instead used for siege/bunker/more marines. Marine frenzy build: Pretty much this build is to punish any terran techers. 10 depot 12 rax 15 gas 15 rax 17 depot 18 Orbital pump marines constantly out of double reactor addon and keep up with depots usually add this after 2 marines come out of first barracks. Can cut scvs to further ensure you get mans out onto the field. Attack with 10~ marines | ||
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buKe
Canada168 Posts
On March 03 2010 18:52 Mystlord wrote: buKe's Ghost Terran build - Too gas intensive. I can't produce mass reapers, nor can I get a minicontain on the Zerg. Speedlings just rape that so hard. . Strategy doesn't work anymore. After the reaper nerf this unit is pretty useless now. I should of posted reps, maybe your timing as off but it was never too gas intensive, I mean I had some gas problems but not so bad that I couldn't do the build. Standard was 7-9minute Nuke. But, yeah doesn't work cause Reapers aren't massable anymore. | ||
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-fj.
Samoa462 Posts
On March 03 2010 18:52 Mystlord wrote: -fj-'s Ghost Build - Not exactly sure what this is supposed to accomplish. Could you tell me how I can support 200 gas ghosts? Is this harassment? You aren't supposed to pump ghosts. You are supposed to get two and kill drones / zerglings with them, and expand off of the pressure you put on. This isn't the best build, though. I would only play it on 4 player maps like kulas ravine where you can wall with one depot and one rax. If they know its coming, it won't be as strong. The purpose of this build isn't to kill him straight up, but to put a new kind of pressure on zergs that they have never seen before. The early(ish) ghosts should be able to infiltrate his base and kill some drones. If he can get an overseer quickly, you may be able to kill it with snipe before your ghosts die, especially if you find it morphing. In an ideal typical situation, you will come in, kill something like 10 drones, 1 overseer, get intel, and leave before energy runs out. If he is going a lot of roaches and doesn't even have a lair at the 8 minute mark, its possible you could kill a ton of drones, if not all of them, or keep him from mining for a long time if he runs them away. Ok, I've played this a couple more times and come up with the following adjustments: 10 depot 12 rax 12 gas send out scouting scv 13 gas 15 orbital command marine 16 rax scv tech lab if you see an early roach warren: 17 marauder otherwise: 17 marine 18 marine 19 supply 19 ghost academy (asap or 80% rax) if you feel pressure coming from roaches, make another marauder @ 100% rax: tech lab @ 100% tech lab1: ghost asap or @100% second marauder: ghost @ 150 gas research cloak At this stage you want to pump marauders, depots and scvs. It would be great if you could have your ghosts near his base and undetected when cloak finishes, but you practically have to be boxer to make that happen 100% of the time while defending your base and managing your build. While you harass, you can expand and then add a factory and another barrack for a transition into a good normal strategy like tanks or marine / medivac. Your expansion should be safe from a roach attack because you made something like 6 or 8 marauders, but it can't hurt to get a bunker or two as well just in case. As you expand, you might make one or two more ghosts from your barracks to offset the large chunk of minerals used and protect you somewhat from light units. Later, you might use your remaining ghosts in a medivac to do additional harassment, possibly with nukes. | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
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semantics
10040 Posts
I hate their new patch it just made zvt even harder to win late game zvt I was messing around in pvp forge FE builds but i couldn't make it work too well on some maps so i didn't develop it. | ||
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On March 05 2010 08:59 Mente wrote: Mente's TvT builds: At the moment these are the only builds I've been really defining and polishing as I'm incredibly frustrated with protoss and zerg seems extremely similar to that of sc1. 2 of my terran openers start like so: 10 rax 11 refinery (build this as soon as you can after 11th scv comes out and throw 3 on gas immediately) 11 orbital command 11 supply depot 12 scv 12 marine 13 fact 14 scout (check for marine rush and here's usually where things change) You're looking for gas mainly and how many marines he has already. If 4 plus siege tank and siege mode are your next goals as well as a bunker with the additional marines you're producing. If he's "fast gasing" (most of the time it's not nearly as fast as this build so here's where we get the advantage) I like to go for 1 port banshee harass into a timing push with tanks and thors. Timing push with banshee and thors: need to build 3 marines up at your ramp while teching, usually third comes out on 20~ for me. 17 supply 18 gas star port as soon as factory is done+ factory tech add on. Usually finishes around this time~ Lift off factory for star port to take tech addon. Build banshee. 23 depot 24 factory tech lab addon 25 ebay and then build 1 maybe 2 turrets 25+ tank/siege At this point with a solid harass from the banshee you can not only scout but potentially do a lot of damage and slow whatever he's doing down massively. Continuing to pump marines/tanks. At 2nd tank, throw down armory. Should have 3 tanks before armory finishes and then build 1 thor and a cc. Push out with 3 scvs the 3 tanks and 8+~ marines and thor. Either the game will end here with some good micro or you'll have the opportunity to expand again and mass up. Star port continues to be used to make additional banshee's to scout and kill off his siege tanks or make vikings for anti air. When he's massing marines: If your scout sees that he's massing marines, prepare for a siege expand or delayed harass, but wait for the attack. Keep the tank far enough away from your ramp so it doesn't get hit. Siege should finish around the time the attack comes. Normal timings as before but using the gas/minerals that you would have for a star port is now instead used for siege/bunker/more marines. Marine frenzy build: Pretty much this build is to punish any terran techers. 10 depot 12 rax 15 gas 15 rax 17 depot 18 Orbital pump marines constantly out of double reactor addon and keep up with depots usually add this after 2 marines come out of first barracks. Can cut scvs to further ensure you get mans out onto the field. Attack with 10~ marines I'm almost certain you made a mistake or you're not playing economically enough. There is no reason why you want to supply cap yourself at 11 for such a long time. Your economy is just going to fall flat on its face. | ||
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Mente
United States288 Posts
On March 05 2010 14:56 Mystlord wrote: I'm almost certain you made a mistake or you're not playing economically enough. There is no reason why you want to supply cap yourself at 11 for such a long time. Your economy is just going to fall flat on its face. You don't supply cap yourself for that long. It pays off for the faster mule. Trust me, I've done the math and comparisons for it. It does not fall flat on it's face period. Try it out for yourself. edit: all I have to say is don't knock it till you try it. It's not nearly as big of a deal as it seems to be. You might have more success with it than you might think <3 ps I'm kinda drunk right now so I'm sorry if I seem assholeish | ||
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woody_
Spain38 Posts
On March 05 2010 07:01 MiyaviTeddy wrote: 10 overlord 13 pool (gas when pool is about 90%ish done, before could be better) 15 overlord 14 queen, 4lings and 1 roach warren this is probably the most universal zerg build, safe too I find. IMO this BO its only usefull in ZvZ | ||
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
get on it | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
pick protoss. do something like 1 gate care -> 3 warpgates and a robo build a pylon in the retreat path of your opponent, as you make them retreat. warp in additional units where theyre retreating... that would be cool | ||
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BeyondCtrL
Sweden642 Posts
I've been brainstorming about the Terran metagame and how a lot of the Terran build involve bio builds going off of one base timing attacks. They work really well, but I think mech has a lot of unnoticed potential due to the heavy gas requirements. The BO I am trying to make work is a standard opening for a Terran against both Protoss and Zerg that can withstand early pressure and maintain an early expansion. So far this is mostly theoretical and I have tried it on Lost Temple (probably the best map there is, imho) and the timing of it seems practical. So bear with me while I list the BO and my reasoning. 10 SD 12 Barracks 14 Refinery (1 SCV on gas) 15-16 Barracks should be complete and you should have about enough minerals (don't make SCV until you can afford it) to start a CC in your base and start pumping marines (don't upgrade Barracks yet, CC at 15 if don't use SCV scout, 16 with scout) + wall off (if pssible). 19 Add 2nd SCV to gas and pump SCV + Marines (ratio depending on early pressure) 22 Add 3rd SCV to gas start construction of an Engineering Bay and Orbital Command Now once your CC is done lift of and float to expansion and you should have precisely enough gas and minerals to start upgrading it to a PF. Compliment it with two bunkers (on LT one on the juttting ledge and one right next to the PF against the ramp. You should have enough marines to fully or nearly fully occupy both bunkers which will both cover each other supporting your PF and makeing run-by's extremely tough. This should be about 6-7 minutes game time. That much firepower at your door (coupled with repair) should stave off any attack at that point in the game. Adding another bunker if you want for a total of 12 marines. Line SD's infront of your bunkers and PF to counter banelings. Now you are at a cross-road of choice here. You can opt for 3-4 gas to go heavy mech (for Zerg I would imagine, and recommend getting reactor SP asap for 2x Viking for Overlord sniping and try to force the Zerg to go Hydra instead of muta. And keep those Ovies away from your base to stave off any Nydus surprises (can use Radar Tower if you want). If you manage to stave off the mutalisk and force the Zerg to Hydra you can mech up with Siege and Hellions. or... You can go a bit easier on the gas and go for MnMnM's Regardless of what you choose the marines you have will help stave off any all rushes (hopefully) of ground and air (remember to constatly produce marines until you have a Factory and SP. And by 10 min ingame you should have have a fully operational and hopefully unbreakable front door. They key element is basically getting air-superiority to force your oppenent to come to your front door. Or if they are passive the econ boost will allow you to field a large army of gas expensive units and upgrades allowing you to push with a ground force supported by vikings and tanks and control the map. I realize this BO is quite rusty, but I think with practice the timings and BO could yet further be improved. | ||
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + THE T v TPZ STANDARD BUILD ORDER VS EVERYTHING IS AS FOLLOWS <3 Now I'm no Platinum Player, nor DO i actually have a BETA KEY (I play on my friends account that is in GOLD LEAGUE), I play about 8-20 games every few days and I believe I have about a 75% win ratio against most players at this 'matchmaking' level. 10 supply SCV finishes and scouts ASAP 12 barracks SCV finishes and builds supply wall (2nd depot) 14 refinery 2 SCVs on gas (don't take any off you need it for next few steps) 15-16 orbital command you should have exactly around 150 minerals and SCV just finishing 2nd supply around this time that SCV that built the barracks 1 marine usually against scouting worker ----- MULE ASAP AND AS MUCH AS YOU CAN 18-20 command center all your economy at this point is waiting for 400 minerals to build a command center ----- 2ND BARRACKS 3RD BARRACKS these 3 barracks should complete JUST in-time against some early game all-ins, or at least those that i've seen so far ----- ENGINEERING BAY 1. bio is STRONG from start to finish against all races 2. early upgrades means TIMING PUSHES +1/+1 3. turret(s) deters dark templar rushes 4. turret(s) deters cloaked banshees when your orbital command energy is down from mules 5. PLANETARY FORTRESS EXPO strategy to follow ----- 2ND refinery ----- (on your barracks obviously, you should have enough gas by now from harvesting earlier) TECHLAB REACTOR REACTOR ----- +1 ATTACK TO INFANTRY WEAPONS ----- MACRO PRODUCE 4 MARINES AND 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOU CAN MOVE OUT ----- SECURING YOUR EXPO AS YOU MOVE OUT: Obviously your experience comes into play here as to how many units you need to defend this critical movement. Basic guidelines as follows: If you scouted more tier one production facilities then he'll have more combat units PROBABLY as you move out. the number and timing of his units coming in obviously depends on his race, unit choices and building locations (proxy buildings too) 1. A spare SCV can run to his base if you want to be extra safe, or you can scan 2. land command center at natural and build a PLANETARY FORTRESS 3. I transfer about 6-8 SCV, someone will probably do the math on it one day 4. Build 1 turret at least and 1-2 bunkers 5. MAP CONSIDERATIONS - double entrances should be scouted / visioned accordingly - stronger choke points need lesser bunkers / probably no need for a planetary fortress if you want to be macro greedy with mules or ready with scans Thoughts on planetary fortress: It's just too good against most TIER 1 unit rushes during this timing. You can repair and micro your SCV and they'll give up on your expo and just try breaking your ramp which can be unit blocked by your ground army/walls anyway. Although it is NOT NECESSARY to have a planetary fortress if you scout a lesser early aggressive build anyway, most of the time just building it deters many early attacks anyway (especially stubborn players that choose to get slaughtered causing them to lose the game losing so many units) ----- CONTINUE PRODUCING SCVS / MACRO WAVES OF UNITS 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOUR CHOKE POINT 'FEELS SECURE' ----- +1 ARMOR TO INFANTRY RESEARCH STIMPACK ----- 3RD refinery ----- FACTORY FACTORY REACTOR STARPORT STARPORT ON FACTORY REACTOR ------ MACRO WAVES OF 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER AND 2 MEDIVACS I usually push out after 4 medivacs, by that time +1/+1 and STIM should be done WHEN YOU GET THE ENEMY'S BASE/EXPO with MARINE shields to follow. It's roughly 9-10minutes into the game when I'm at their front door or getting through the backdoor. ------ From here either the game ends with me winning a timing push or winning map control. This same build has worked against all races so far, except some good roach all-in builds that get in through the backdoor that I've been working to be more weary of. The critical point of any FE build anyway is your lack of units to counter quick backdooring during your expo setup and I advise you change your builds on these maps. Like lol blistering sands with the stupid rock formation that is 10 units wide that allows 10 roaches in within the first 5+ minutes. ------ Some race dependent deviations: 4TH BARRACKS WITH REACTOR or TECHLAB - TvT i just mass more marines - TvP techlab to get GHOSTS if he gets a quick colussus - TvZ more marauders if he goes with banelings FACTORY WITH REACTOR - TvZ hellions work well to kite banelings and can be macro'ed just as well with 4 marines, 1 marauder and 2 medivacs, you can also macro this during your first push off of your 2 bases STARPORT WITH TECHLAB - TvZ mid-late game i think it's the must have AoE if he's better at macro, i've failed though remember to use Ravens effectively is exactly the commandcenter -> planetary fortress build i use TvALL i opt for 2 barracks built right after the command center to keep up in unit macro, and you really won't be far behind in unit production anyway given most map timings | ||
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
On March 05 2010 23:56 BeyondCtrL wrote: Terran FE using Planetary Fortress 10 SD 12 Barracks 14 Refinery (1 SCV on gas) 15-16 Barracks should be complete and you should have about enough minerals (don't make SCV until you can afford it) to start a CC in your base and start pumping marines (don't upgrade Barracks yet, CC at 15 if don't use SCV scout, 16 with scout) + wall off (if pssible). 19 Add 2nd SCV to gas and pump SCV + Marines (ratio depending on early pressure) 22 Add 3rd SCV to gas start construction of an Engineering Bay and Orbital Command Now once your CC is done lift of and float to expansion and you should have precisely enough gas and minerals to start upgrading it to a PF. Compliment it with two bunkers (on LT one on the juttting ledge and one right next to the PF against the ramp. You should have enough marines to fully or nearly fully occupy both bunkers which will both cover each other supporting your PF and makeing run-by's extremely tough. This should be about 6-7 minutes game time. That much firepower at your door (coupled with repair) should stave off any attack at that point in the game. Adding another bunker if you want for a total of 12 marines. Line SD's infront of your bunkers and PF to counter banelings. Now you are at a cross-road of choice here. You can opt for 3-4 gas to go heavy mech (for Zerg I would imagine, and recommend getting reactor SP asap for 2x Viking for Overlord sniping and try to force the Zerg to go Hydra instead of muta. And keep those Ovies away from your base to stave off any Nydus surprises (can use Radar Tower if you want). If you manage to stave off the mutalisk and force the Zerg to Hydra you can mech up with Siege and Hellions. or... You can go a bit easier on the gas and go for MnMnM's Regardless of what you choose the marines you have will help stave off any all rushes (hopefully) of ground and air (remember to constatly produce marines until you have a Factory and SP. And by 10 min ingame you should have have a fully operational and hopefully unbreakable front door. They key element is basically getting air-superiority to force your oppenent to come to your front door. Or if they are passive the econ boost will allow you to field a large army of gas expensive units and upgrades allowing you to push with a ground force supported by vikings and tanks and control the map. If this works, Zerg will counterexpand... could someone experiment transitioning this into thor drops? Maybe transitioning the 2x vikings into faclab>armory + 2x medivac out of the reactor SP, build a sensor tower + Stim MedMarine ball walking around to fight off muta harass and control the map (PF deals with ground extremely well) while you get a thor. Then start pumping vikings, and do Thor+SCV(+Marine) drop (Thor should have the 100 energy by now) Drop the thor and 250mm the spire/hydra den/hatchery, repair the thors with SCVs and build a Bunker, while vikings deal with hydras/mutas. Heal SCVs with medivacs if they are being attacked, but keep the medivacs safe otherwise (drop marines somewhere else in the meantime if you have them). When the bunker is done, either use it to keep SCVs safer, or bring marines to load it. If you start losing vikings, or if roaches arrive, load the thor and SCVs into the medivacs and retreat. | ||
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