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Imperator
Profile Joined June 2009
United States246 Posts
February 23 2010 08:05 GMT
#1
The Liquipedia Team has gotten a beta key. We are asking you, the users, to provide your brilliant BOs for us to test out against the world! Please be as specific as you can.
LiquipediaAll war is deception. Think your enemy has a weakness and it becomes his strength. - Roy Mustang | CJ Entusman #55
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
February 23 2010 08:28 GMT
#2
Indeed! Post your amazing strats using standard build notation, as can be seen on any Liquipedia build order article, such as this 1rax FE guide!. We'll be demoing builds presented by TL members on the Liquipedia livestream!
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-02 04:24:03
February 23 2010 08:33 GMT
#3
Okay update time~~~

A Guide with a lot of formating

14 Gas Speed (ZvP)[14 Extractor Speedlings]
      For a lot of Zerg players Protoss are either over aggressive or very passive and so harassment is not something that comes into mind when you think about Starcraft 2. There are a lot of all-in games by the lower echelon of players.
      I am currently a top ranked gold player not moving up to platinum due to wanting to explore the other races and new builds as more patches come out. What my 14 gas into speedlings is strong at is being a solid opening for Zerg verses Protoss and with some small variation can be used in Zerg verses Terran to some success. This is a solid build allowing synergy between unit production and macro for Zerg leading into mid and late game.

Purpose:
      This is a fairly safe build against a 2 gate, it also allows one to scout and harass a passive Protoss.The aim of this build is harassment, strong heavy handed probe harassment to:
  • Keep the Protoss in his base.
  • Gain important scouting information on this tech
  • Hurt his economy.

Build Order:
  • 10 Overlord.
  • 14 Extractor.
  • (Build a Drone and get the supply back up to 14 yes timing is important)
  • Put 3 Drones on the Extractor as soon as it finishes, this should be around the time you are about to lay your Spawning Pool or just after you have done so.
  • 14 Spawning Pool.
  • (Build 2 more Drones)
  • 15 Overlord.
  • When Spawning Pool finishes:
    • Upgrade Zergling Speed (Evolve Metabolic Boost), you should have or be very near having 100 gas when the Spawning Pool finishes.
    • Make a Queen (When the Queen finishes around 20-22 supply you want to always use her Spawn Larva ability to get more larva for your macro)
    • Start continually pumping Zerglings for your initial attack or defense.

Build Order Clarification:
      Now this plays 2 ways against a passive Protoss which seems to be more popular now of days or against a hyper aggression Protoss which seems have died down so we will be talking first about a passive Protoss. Both variations will be likely transition to building up Mutalisk.
    Against Low Aggression:
    • When your first Zergling finishes use it to take out the probe wondering your base and to scout gain knowledge of their location and if you are lucky a bit of what they are going.
    • Around the 20-22 Mark you will notice you have over 300 mins but you cannot upgrade to Lair because your Queen is still being made, use this extra money to Expand to your natural.
    • Soon after your expansion when you have 100 gas laying around upgrade your Hatchery to Lair.
    • At 23 to 24 ish you want to pop your overlord and start making a transition to making a mixture of Zerglings and Drones your Speed Upgrade should be around done by then and you will be moving out.
    • When your Lair finishes build a Spire for Mutalisk+Zergling play.
    • The thing about low aggression Protoss is that they are trying to tech to Void Ray, Immortals or Colossus, most of the time this is either Colossus or Immortals and so a transition to Mutalisk is a safe bet.
        Things to Remember to do:
      • Every time you hit 300 mins and in the next 3 second you will not be making more units i strongly suggest you take the time to expand or lay down another hatchery expanding your production capacity is always good.
      • Your first wave and subsequent waves of Zerglings are not there to kill Zealots etc they are there to scout and kill probes.
      • Attack moving into Probes does not work unless the Probes are attacking you if there is a Zealot or Stalker on your screen a moving the Zergling will run all the way across it to attack them instead so right click + shift units if you are being closely pursued by units.
      • Right clicking and shift is your friend
      • Bind all your hatcheries to one hotkey also set the Drones waypoint to the same mineral line preferably the one with the least amount of Drones at it.


    Against High Aggression:Coming Soon!
    Now with High aggression openings again you will not be scouting till late in the game but usually unless they are super noobing this will not matter too much.

    The thing to do is fight zealots 1 on 1 in terms of cost 4 lings beats 1 zealot but 1 zealot totally beats 3 lings. So if he has an army of 8 units don't engage unless you have at least 32 zerglings else you will loose the fight badly and he'll still have 4 pretty good zealots to kill you with.

    anyways it's pretty simple and similar to doing against a defensive player but do not do anything but expand and build zerglings and overlords no drones you need as many lings as possible unless you just killed his army and have a clear advantage.

Transition:Coming Soon!
Ultralisk Zergling upgraded


Replays:Coming Soon!
    Low Aggression:

    Low Aggression Strong Turtle:

    High Aggression Early Fast Attack:

    High Aggression Mass Attack:

VODs:Coming Soon!
    Low Aggression:

    Low Aggression Strong Turtle:

    High Aggression Early Fast Attack:

    High Aggression Mass Attack:


~~~make judgment calls from your experience after the opening in this build, you get the idea anything after the first part of expanding is pretty much up to when you feel it is right. Remember he can't build anymore units if you kill all his probes :D

Still editing and panning out details be up by Monday~~~
Do not be afraid to PM me about anything that sounds weird or is misspelled
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
February 23 2010 13:54 GMT
#4
Not going to post this in SBN as I do not have the beta and am unsure of the timing. If someone would like to study and try it I would be much gratified :D


Hello all, I've been watching the scene for a while and I'm intending to become active in SC2 as a content developer as well as working on my place. I was captured by another poster's interesting ideas about TvZ and thought I'd try a bit of theorycraft myself.

This is based off the neo-flash idea of a high tech defensive turtle, with a very strong midgame aerial harass and subsequent push. It takes advantage of several new mechanics terran can use- notably the new versatility of bunkers, hotswitching tech addons and the (I think) underappreciated viking and raven

Start up with a pretty standard opening, get your first depot at your ramp and a rax in your main followed by a single gas quite early. Then get a quick E-bay and a bunker while your first marines are building, completing the wall. The moment the ebay finishes go for neosteel frames and get your second depot at the bottom of your ramp, in range of your bunker, starting a wall in front of your natural. You should be pumping marines during this time, adding a reactor to keep the count up. A second Ebay should also go up ASAP and get started on building armor. Around the neosteel frames finishing you should push out into your natural, salvaging your first bunker and building 2 more to add to the 2 depots that should be down there, finishing your wall by floating the first ebay over once it's finished frames. This will give you a front wall with 2 fully upgraded bunkers packed with marines.

The aim from here is to tech switch now your front is secure against pretty much any early zerg aggression, with SCVs repairing if necessary, there's not much even mass roaches I think will be able to do against a wall like that if your sim is decent and you get repairs going if they try and bust through the ebay or supply deps. Aim to get your second CC down and expand cleanly. If the zerg is pushing hard and you've taken a few hits go with a PF on your expansion, if not go OC and get the mules going.

From the point where you secure your natural wall, you want to get a factory out followed by dual starports. Your first port should go straight onto the first reactor and the second and your rax should
both get tech labs. Both ports should be pumping a stream of vikings till you have 6 or 7, while your raxx should be putting out marines and your ebays should be getting infantry upgrades. Upgrade raven seeker missiles at your starport techlab.

Once your vikings are out, switch back to full bio macro, going up to 3reactor raxxes and one techlab one. Turn your starports over to dedicated raven creation. Use the vikings to alternately go after drones as your first priority and overlords second. Use the slow speed of hydras and roaches against them and force your opponent to keep forces in his bases rather than committing to a full scale breach which at this point you will probably be vulnerable against.

Vikings seem to be very strong units without any upgrades- fast 14 damage cannons mean 3 can oneshot a drone and with decent micro you can cut down five or six in a few seconds and then just pop off the moment anything comes close. Their missiles are weaker against zerg, but they massively outrange mutas (9-3) so you may be able to use this to your advantage, I haven't really seen it play out. Against a ling/roach heavy build they will excel, but be somewhat weaker against mass hydras, only succeeding in keeping them back from the front- which is exactly what you want

You should be aiming to push out with some 2/2 marines (2 armor is critical with shields as it is the point where hydras go from 5 to 6 hits to kill a marine if at 0 upgrades, which they seem to be most of the time) supported by dropship/raven forces as soon as you hit a critical mass. Support this force with SCV's and build bunkers as you move up, use that tech advantage to pressure chokes, bunkering them up to prevent getting munched by a crackling/lisk army. When you do engage mass hydras, unleash those seeker missiles, which seem to basically be the terran storm. This will really punish shonky micro, and from what I've seen can do some serious damage to massed hydra.

In summary this build
-pushes out with a very secure early game expansion that zerg will have massive trouble breaking with T1 tech, forcing them to go to T2.
-focuses on switching into a heavy aerial harass to make up for the early game lack of pressure, aimed at forcing the zerg to pull back to prevent the hydra timing push that seems so typical in current play, taking advantage of their new lack of manoeuvrability and the versatility of the viking
-uses the early game tech choices (double Ebay, quick starports, no money wasted on factory units) to produce a fairly fast and very powerful combo timing push which is capable of crushing mass hydra and securing further expansions so you can lock the zerg down and take advantage of their lack of late game power.

Things to remember:
- I think this build is solid against most zerg strats at this stage. Once people learn it, it is going to be reasonably easy to counter by mass expanding early and using defensive nyduses. At this stage however it's very, very strong against the strats I've seen so far. It's also very balanced, not requiring oodles of gas for anything other than the ravens since almost all your ground forces are going to be marines with comparably few, if any, marauders. Terran also get the best (and now only) mineral mining speed increase with the mule, and since this is a fairly safe expand you will probably be calling down two all the time, meaning the mineral heavy aspects of the build are catered for.
-making sure you get upgrades pronto is a major part of this, those two early bunker upgrades are critical to shutting down early zerg harass and then transitioning to double infantry upgrades early takes advantage of that double investment in ebays.
-you need to do at least a decent amount of econ damage with your vikings. Tap a few drones here and there and force defences back into the zerg base. Do try not to lose your vikings as they can be very useful to stop nydus attacks once they become imminent.
-Getting ravens with decent energy up to stop the mass hydra bust is also critical. It's a bonus that they provide detection, countering any burrow tricks and banelings with ease. If the game begins to stalemate, you can use them late game to drop a bunch of auto turrets on zerg resource lines perhaps.

Potential issues:
-resource starvation during the period where you're walling your expansion, expanding there and teching to starports. This is pretty resource intensive, but you won't need much of an army, on the plus side.
-issues with vikings. I honestly haven't seen them that much. On paper they seem amazing for the job I have for them here, but responsiveness to micro and speed of their switch out might cause problems
-Nydus busts: This seems pretty difficult to counter with anything but siege tanks atm, I'm hoping turrets+ turtle mentality + viking patrols will make it very tricky to pull off on this build
-ultra ling: with their cleave, mass marine is quite vulnerable to this, so offensive use of bunkers I think will be critical to soak ultra hits while the rest of your army pounds them. Luckily you should probably be 3/3 upgraded with stim and shields by the time your opponent is 2/1, so your marines should be surprisingly durable, especially if you have a few medivacs as well as ravens.
-Upgraded Hydras outrange marines, so someone who goes ahead with a push while you are harassing could feasibly be a pain. If this looks like it may happen, a PF on the CC will probably save you, as will getting some clutch marauders into the bunkers.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
Deathfate
Profile Joined November 2008
Spain555 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-03 01:37:48
February 23 2010 15:18 GMT
#5
Overview

After just a week of roach rushes, protoss players have found a proper counter to fend it off, so it is time to use a more economical build that can stop anything that P players throw to you and make the game more macro oriented.

Build Order

This build order dependes on the 2 current trends of P openings, one is the classic 2 gate push, and the other one the 1 Gate Tech as it was in SC1, but now with the diference that Z player lack of any anti-air at Tier 1 (except of queen) so you must tech almost as fast as your opponent.

Opening

9 - ovie
15 - pool
16 - hatch (Note #1)
17 - Extractor (put 3 drones in it asap)
16 - Queen
18 - Overlord

Branch 1: vs 1 Gate:

18 - 4 Zerglings (2 Eggs Note #2)
20 - Drone
21 - Queen (Note #3)
Start making a lot of drones
@100 gas - Lair (at expo as you are making a queen in your main)
26 - Overlord
26 - Extractor (put 3 drones in it asap)
33 - Overlord
34 - Zergling Speed
@ 100% Lair or 34/36 - Hydra Den (Note #4)
Build Check #1
36 - Roach Warren
39 - Overlord
100 % Hydra den - Start Making tons of HydraLing
48 - Extractor (put 3 drones in it asap)
Build Check #2
50 - Hydra Range(Note #5)

Branch 2: vs 2 Gate:

18 - Roach Warren
17 - 6 Zerglings (3 Eggs Note #2)
20 - Queen (Note #3)
22 - Drone
24 - 4 Roaches
27 - Overlord
27 - Roach(Total of 5)
28 - Lair
Start ONLY Drone production
Build Check #3
34 - Over
34 - Extractor(put 3 drones in it asap)
39 - Hydra Den
41 - Roach Speed
41 - Over
100% Hydra Den - Start making hydras
52 - Extractor
Build Check #4
Build Order Clarification

Early Game Defense
If he went 1 gate you wont need it. your 4 lings + 2 queens would be enough.

If he goes 2 gate you will have 5 roaches and 6 lings, that and your queen should provide enough defense for you to survive, if he is making a lot of zeals you will need to delay the lair a bit in exchange of 2 more roaches and a few lings.

Build Check #1
At 6 minute mark you should have 28 drones, 4 lings, 2 queens and 2 extractors
Build Check #2
At 7:15 you should have 10 lings,3 hydras and 30 drones, your goal is to make 44, so try to squeeze some more when you can
Build Check #3
At 6 min you should have 5 roaches, 6 lings, 2 queens and 19 drones (in case you didnt have to make more army to stop an all in of zealots)
Build Check #4
At 8:15 you should have your firsts hydras finished and 34 drones or so, you goal is 44 drones, so make them when you can.

General Notes
Note #1:
Place your hatch at your natural, also send a drone to scout 1 gate or 2 gate, you NEED this information BEFORE the end of the opening so you can choose one branch or the other, if the map is a 4 player map maybe you should send this drone when you are making your pool.
Note #2:
Use wisely your lings, first go to his base and force him to make a zeal, take some crucial naga towers and the most important, keep one ling at his front in case he comes out to attack, and also SCOUT FOR HIDDEN PYLONS, if he manages to make some proxy pylon and you are whoring drone you are a dead man
Note #3:
Right when your queen pops out use spawn larvae on your hatchery and send it to your natural.
Note #4:
There is a timing attack now, if when your hydra den is half way done see him come out of his base (remember to place your ling there) with 3 zeals, and some sentry/stalker you will need to stop your drone production and make only lings plus a couple of spine crawlers in order to survive, if you manage to delay his attack enough to have hydras out you are in great shape.
Note #5:
There is another timming attack now with immortals, sentry and zeals. You should have hydras out and enough lings to fend it off, if you see that you cant defend it make a spine crawler but you normally wont need it

Transition

You should transition to the classic hydra roach ling army and with 4 gases you will be able to get upgrades, i recommend spines and carpace. Also dont forget to expand again when you see the oportunity.

Mentality

Once you reach lair, start using your overs creep drop to make a path between your bases and the middle of the map, that way hydras will be a lot faster, also try to nydus your 3rd base and your natural to have insta defense. The goal is to have a bigger army than your oponent in the mid game and crush him with it while expanding again. Dont forget that infestors can control colossi, that will make a big diference in the late game.

Well this it, hope you give it a try.
Feel the power of the zerg swarm.
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
February 24 2010 00:56 GMT
#6
+ Show Spoiler [Thereisnosaurus' post] +
On February 23 2010 22:54 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Not going to post this in SBN as I do not have the beta and am unsure of the timing. If someone would like to study and try it I would be much gratified :D


Hello all, I've been watching the scene for a while and I'm intending to become active in SC2 as a content developer as well as working on my place. I was captured by another poster's interesting ideas about TvZ and thought I'd try a bit of theorycraft myself.

This is based off the neo-flash idea of a high tech defensive turtle, with a very strong midgame aerial harass and subsequent push. It takes advantage of several new mechanics terran can use- notably the new versatility of bunkers, hotswitching tech addons and the (I think) underappreciated viking and raven

Start up with a pretty standard opening, get your first depot at your ramp and a rax in your main followed by a single gas quite early. Then get a quick E-bay and a bunker while your first marines are building, completing the wall. The moment the ebay finishes go for neosteel frames and get your second depot at the bottom of your ramp, in range of your bunker, starting a wall in front of your natural. You should be pumping marines during this time, adding a reactor to keep the count up. A second Ebay should also go up ASAP and get started on building armor. Around the neosteel frames finishing you should push out into your natural, salvaging your first bunker and building 2 more to add to the 2 depots that should be down there, finishing your wall by floating the first ebay over once it's finished frames. This will give you a front wall with 2 fully upgraded bunkers packed with marines.

The aim from here is to tech switch now your front is secure against pretty much any early zerg aggression, with SCVs repairing if necessary, there's not much even mass roaches I think will be able to do against a wall like that if your sim is decent and you get repairs going if they try and bust through the ebay or supply deps. Aim to get your second CC down and expand cleanly. If the zerg is pushing hard and you've taken a few hits go with a PF on your expansion, if not go OC and get the mules going.

From the point where you secure your natural wall, you want to get a factory out followed by dual starports. Your first port should go straight onto the first reactor and the second and your rax should
both get tech labs. Both ports should be pumping a stream of vikings till you have 6 or 7, while your raxx should be putting out marines and your ebays should be getting infantry upgrades. Upgrade raven seeker missiles at your starport techlab.

Once your vikings are out, switch back to full bio macro, going up to 3reactor raxxes and one techlab one. Turn your starports over to dedicated raven creation. Use the vikings to alternately go after drones as your first priority and overlords second. Use the slow speed of hydras and roaches against them and force your opponent to keep forces in his bases rather than committing to a full scale breach which at this point you will probably be vulnerable against.

Vikings seem to be very strong units without any upgrades- fast 14 damage cannons mean 3 can oneshot a drone and with decent micro you can cut down five or six in a few seconds and then just pop off the moment anything comes close. Their missiles are weaker against zerg, but they massively outrange mutas (9-3) so you may be able to use this to your advantage, I haven't really seen it play out. Against a ling/roach heavy build they will excel, but be somewhat weaker against mass hydras, only succeeding in keeping them back from the front- which is exactly what you want

You should be aiming to push out with some 2/2 marines (2 armor is critical with shields as it is the point where hydras go from 5 to 6 hits to kill a marine if at 0 upgrades, which they seem to be most of the time) supported by dropship/raven forces as soon as you hit a critical mass. Support this force with SCV's and build bunkers as you move up, use that tech advantage to pressure chokes, bunkering them up to prevent getting munched by a crackling/lisk army. When you do engage mass hydras, unleash those seeker missiles, which seem to basically be the terran storm. This will really punish shonky micro, and from what I've seen can do some serious damage to massed hydra.

In summary this build
-pushes out with a very secure early game expansion that zerg will have massive trouble breaking with T1 tech, forcing them to go to T2.
-focuses on switching into a heavy aerial harass to make up for the early game lack of pressure, aimed at forcing the zerg to pull back to prevent the hydra timing push that seems so typical in current play, taking advantage of their new lack of manoeuvrability and the versatility of the viking
-uses the early game tech choices (double Ebay, quick starports, no money wasted on factory units) to produce a fairly fast and very powerful combo timing push which is capable of crushing mass hydra and securing further expansions so you can lock the zerg down and take advantage of their lack of late game power.

Things to remember:
- I think this build is solid against most zerg strats at this stage. Once people learn it, it is going to be reasonably easy to counter by mass expanding early and using defensive nyduses. At this stage however it's very, very strong against the strats I've seen so far. It's also very balanced, not requiring oodles of gas for anything other than the ravens since almost all your ground forces are going to be marines with comparably few, if any, marauders. Terran also get the best (and now only) mineral mining speed increase with the mule, and since this is a fairly safe expand you will probably be calling down two all the time, meaning the mineral heavy aspects of the build are catered for.
-making sure you get upgrades pronto is a major part of this, those two early bunker upgrades are critical to shutting down early zerg harass and then transitioning to double infantry upgrades early takes advantage of that double investment in ebays.
-you need to do at least a decent amount of econ damage with your vikings. Tap a few drones here and there and force defences back into the zerg base. Do try not to lose your vikings as they can be very useful to stop nydus attacks once they become imminent.
-Getting ravens with decent energy up to stop the mass hydra bust is also critical. It's a bonus that they provide detection, countering any burrow tricks and banelings with ease. If the game begins to stalemate, you can use them late game to drop a bunch of auto turrets on zerg resource lines perhaps.

Potential issues:
-resource starvation during the period where you're walling your expansion, expanding there and teching to starports. This is pretty resource intensive, but you won't need much of an army, on the plus side.
-issues with vikings. I honestly haven't seen them that much. On paper they seem amazing for the job I have for them here, but responsiveness to micro and speed of their switch out might cause problems
-Nydus busts: This seems pretty difficult to counter with anything but siege tanks atm, I'm hoping turrets+ turtle mentality + viking patrols will make it very tricky to pull off on this build
-ultra ling: with their cleave, mass marine is quite vulnerable to this, so offensive use of bunkers I think will be critical to soak ultra hits while the rest of your army pounds them. Luckily you should probably be 3/3 upgraded with stim and shields by the time your opponent is 2/1, so your marines should be surprisingly durable, especially if you have a few medivacs as well as ravens.
-Upgraded Hydras outrange marines, so someone who goes ahead with a push while you are harassing could feasibly be a pain. If this looks like it may happen, a PF on the CC will probably save you, as will getting some clutch marauders into the bunkers.

Have fun vs moving burrowed roaches in your main.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
February 24 2010 01:32 GMT
#7
Can I provide a rep of my build if I'm too lazy to type it out, or do you just want mostly theorycrafted builds?
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
February 24 2010 03:53 GMT
#8
Have fun vs moving burrowed roaches in your main.


Yeah, I noticed they can move through submerged supply depots recently, so I'd like to throw a question out- can they burrow through *non* submerged buildings? Ideally my build has a tight wall in, and so burrowed roaches *will not* be able to get through into the main if they can't, but if they can it does make it a lot more tricky against roach builds.

Ofc, there's an easy fix, a single turret could provide detection to your wall. 100 minerals that I wouldn't otherwise spend, but it's there- it's not like you can't throw one up if you see the roach warren go down.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
diehilde
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany1596 Posts
February 24 2010 04:31 GMT
#9
On February 24 2010 12:53 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Show nested quote +
Have fun vs moving burrowed roaches in your main.


Yeah, I noticed they can move through submerged supply depots recently, so I'd like to throw a question out- can they burrow through *non* submerged buildings? Ideally my build has a tight wall in, and so burrowed roaches *will not* be able to get through into the main if they can't, but if they can it does make it a lot more tricky against roach builds.

Ofc, there's an easy fix, a single turret could provide detection to your wall. 100 minerals that I wouldn't otherwise spend, but it's there- it's not like you can't throw one up if you see the roach warren go down.

problem is a ton of roaches are gonna 1 shot your depot, so they just gonna unburrow briefly and kill the depot and proceed to tunnel into your main. Another problem I see with your build is that it will horribly lose against mass banelings thrown into the mix of hydra/ling. But I cant really comment as in depth on ZvT as on ZvP/ZvZ yet since I have only gotten 1 good T opponent (he killed me with hellions only, running by 3 spine crawlers and killing all my drones like nothing)
Savior: "I will cheat everyone again in SC2!" - SCII Beta Tester
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
February 24 2010 05:45 GMT
#10
Pretty sure they can burrow through cliffs.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
February 24 2010 06:42 GMT
#11
Really? Wow. Ok, perhaps I underestimated the roaches. I've never seen them burrow under a building that wasn't a lowered SD, and I've certainly never seen them go up cliffs. Can someone confirm or deny this?

@damenmofa: the missile turret counters the snipe strat, also, it will take a hell of a lot of roaches to one tap a supply depot. 13 damage (16-3) per roach would require 27 roaches to one hit a depot, and 14 to do it in two volleys. this is assuming they all unborrow in range. In that time, they're going to have am minimum 12 marines wailing on them unpunished, plus whatever you have standing directly behind your bunker line. Doable, but tricky. I agree though that mass banelings would make a mess of the front wall if handled correctly, though this wouldn't be very resource efficient. Once the army moves out, it should have enough critical mass to be able to counter any banelings, and is also going to be supported by ravens so they can't be ambushed. This is all theory though. I just get the feeling that this is a solid build to take on all comers as it's very versatile defensively has a lot of mid-late game offensive options. like any build, it has counters, but the simple ones seem to be easy enough to adapt to, and the tricky ones are unlikely to come out in anything but really high level play
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-24 07:23:54
February 24 2010 07:23 GMT
#12
Roaches are useless except in zvz from my findings
why do you need roaches to go unit walls when you can use banelings to blow them up much quicker!
Rkie
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1278 Posts
February 25 2010 01:35 GMT
#13
I would like to see how effective a Protoss fast expand is in PvT and PvZ.
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 25 2010 04:56 GMT
#14
On February 24 2010 15:42 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Really? Wow. Ok, perhaps I underestimated the roaches. I've never seen them burrow under a building that wasn't a lowered SD, and I've certainly never seen them go up cliffs. Can someone confirm or deny this?

Denied.

Burrowed units have the same properties as unburrowed units. Burrowed roaches and Infestors CANNOT pass under buildings, nor can they go over cliffs.

However, they can go "under" a submerged supply depot, which I find funny but ok
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
February 25 2010 05:01 GMT
#15
I wish they could burrow though cliffs that would be hilarious make tunnels!
b0lt
Profile Joined March 2009
United States790 Posts
February 25 2010 15:04 GMT
#16
On February 25 2010 13:56 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2010 15:42 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Really? Wow. Ok, perhaps I underestimated the roaches. I've never seen them burrow under a building that wasn't a lowered SD, and I've certainly never seen them go up cliffs. Can someone confirm or deny this?

Denied.

Burrowed units have the same properties as unburrowed units. Burrowed roaches and Infestors CANNOT pass under buildings, nor can they go over cliffs.

However, they can go "under" a submerged supply depot, which I find funny but ok


Do they still collide with units? (i.e. is my gateway walloff with a blocking zealot safe against it)
onmach
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1241 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-25 15:26:24
February 25 2010 15:25 GMT
#17
They should make it to where burrowed moving units can't get "under" a lowered supply depot. They should do it just for flavor and realism. Give the terran a sense of security knowing nothing burrowing will make it by his wall in.

I like the idea of burrowed roaches, but it seems like all they have to do is lay down a cannon or two or a single well placed turret and your investment in burrow (150,150 I think) becomes worthless as an early push tactic. Attempting to snipe the cannon will just get you murdered by his other troops. If you can get in though, then it's pretty awesome.
Wire
Profile Joined July 2009
United States494 Posts
February 25 2010 23:35 GMT
#18
On February 25 2010 13:56 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2010 15:42 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Really? Wow. Ok, perhaps I underestimated the roaches. I've never seen them burrow under a building that wasn't a lowered SD, and I've certainly never seen them go up cliffs. Can someone confirm or deny this?

Denied.

Burrowed units have the same properties as unburrowed units. Burrowed roaches and Infestors CANNOT pass under buildings, nor can they go over cliffs.

However, they can go "under" a submerged supply depot, which I find funny but ok


um..as i recall on more than one occasion roaches have snuck in under my ling tight wall and magically appeared to destroy all my scvs and leave me crying. thats why i now insist on a turret next to my choke.
"You sacced your ovie, which is great, but then you didn't watch it die, which is bad :("
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
February 25 2010 23:57 GMT
#19
On February 26 2010 08:35 Wire wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2010 13:56 Mystlord wrote:
On February 24 2010 15:42 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Really? Wow. Ok, perhaps I underestimated the roaches. I've never seen them burrow under a building that wasn't a lowered SD, and I've certainly never seen them go up cliffs. Can someone confirm or deny this?

Denied.

Burrowed units have the same properties as unburrowed units. Burrowed roaches and Infestors CANNOT pass under buildings, nor can they go over cliffs.

However, they can go "under" a submerged supply depot, which I find funny but ok


um..as i recall on more than one occasion roaches have snuck in under my ling tight wall and magically appeared to destroy all my scvs and leave me crying. thats why i now insist on a turret next to my choke.

you sure it isnt nydus?
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
blowies
Profile Joined February 2010
United States3 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-26 05:01:45
February 26 2010 04:52 GMT
#20
Terran Build Order – TvP (can work with variations for TvT and TvZ)

I do not have the beta—hence I’m taking the time to write this build order in hopes of perfecting it. So..I don’t have exact unit count but have watched enough replays to understand what is capable.

This build order is going to be your standard Terran play style with a couple of variations depending on scouting. Terran are very weak early game giving up map control and need to dictate the flow of the game as soon as possible.

This build order takes into affect that you have a general understanding… i.e. using Mule on energy etc.

STAGE 1
Start out with your standard build -
supply depot
rax (Wall yourself in correctly with a tech lab add-on)
refinery
orbital command
supply
*Start producing Reapers (4)


Objective and Mindset:

This is a crucial time in the game. You need to be very effective with the Reapers. Do not engage in any unit combat outside of scv/drone/probe. Your job with the 4 reapers are to slow down there production and disorient your opponent to effect their timing. Once you have done the best job with your 4 reapers… place them strategically around the map. (i.e. scouting their natural expansion and at watch towers.) KEEP THEM ALIVE! --Don’t go back up a cliff to the same spot you did 15-20 seconds ago and think that the enemy is stupid enough not to leave a unit there. You want them to invest units in defense--you have accomplished the objective.

Conclusion:
Hopefully with your Reaper harass you were able change your enemies mindset of the game and get them to slow down their tech to produce more units to defend and combat your reapers. With the Reaper harass you have now taken back control of the map. You have a clear vision of what is happening and have paranoid your opponent to possibly take precautions to eliminate your harass.

Continued Build Order –
Supply Depot(s)
Refinery
Factory (tech lab add-on)
Starport, swap with factory tech lab. Build tech lab on Factory.
*Produce (1 )Siege Tank and research siege, be sure to place it far enough away from ranged attacks at your main entrance.
*Produce a handful of (5) Marines and (5) Marauders
Starport, Start producing immediately once you swap to tech lab-- 4 Banshees and prepare for enemy push, you might not get them all out in time to defend. If you were able to delay the enemy with your harass-- Ideally you want to have an army of this size.
4 reapers, 1 siege tank, 4-5 marines, 4-5 marauders, and 4 banshees.


Mindset:
Most likely with the Reaper harass, Protoss has over compensated early units like stalker, sentry and zealot. Your Superior air units will dominate the mid game push with some well timed micro. You must stop this mid game push by focus firing the anti-air units first. Many times terran players die to mid-game Protoss pushes because they lose those initial reapers. Having the reaper scouts gives you enough time to position yourself for the push. I believe that Terran is at a disadvantage at this stage of the game unless your reapers put a hurt on your opponent. But you are not overly committing those units so unless your opponent is terrible. Don’t count on an advantage on your opponent. Your advantage comes after you survive your opponent’s mid-game push. Once you have all 4 banshee out you are now in control of the game. You can go harass the enemy with your air units giving you time to expand to your natural and start pumping marines and marauders.

STAGE 2

Expanding is the top priority here. And at this point you go into macro mode.
Build 2 more rax, one with tech lab and one with reactor,
Upgrade stim and marine hp bonus.
Build Engineering Bay and start to upgrade.
Swap the starport for the rax with the reactor and start double producing medivacs.

With your new found army thanks to your boost to your economy from your natural expansion. It’s time to play a little game of cat-and-mouse. Push with your marauders/marine/banshee army to the middle of the map taking map control. Scan your enemy to examine base defense and tech. Most likely your opponent has either expanded or counter teching your banshees. Your intentions are not to push into protoss’s main or even there expansion. You basically are just pushing the protoss force back into their base and again having them make more inferior units with them anticipating an attack. These are the subtle movements that are key to success. Terran isn’t about overpowering your opponent it is about wearing them down.

After taking map control of the middle of the map,
Retreat and start up your second expansion with refineries.


Your army is not quite ready to finish off the enemy. But we’re not going to play chicken all game. So pack up your marines/marauders in your medivacs and drop on their main mineral line. Most likely they still have a few units back there waiting for those pesky reapers to reappear. Make sure you got 3-4 Medivacs full of marines and marauders and take out the existing units and do as much damage as you can to their production. Once you see their army come close to you pack up and go home.

***There are a couple scenarios that could happen there because they might have scouted your second expo and move there force so the drop could really do some serious damage. Hopefully your cat-and-mouse act pushed them off enough to leave your second base unnoticed. If they take out your expo and head to your main be sure to get back asap.

After the drop, expand again.
By this time you have 3 expansions and are mass producing and upgrading your existing units.
Depending on how much air your enemy has you might want to add another Starport and a few Vikings to focus fire.
Build 2 more Factories and start to control the ground game with siege tanks.
Continue to upgrade and mass marines and marauders.
Make a Ghost Academy and Produce a couple Ghost for EMP.
Build a couple Nighthawks.


At this stage of the game, you have harassed the enemy a couple different times and have made a successful drop on their main while defending against their mid game push. You are now at an advantage and should start to contain your opponent from expanding.
When engaging in battles --be sure to use the medivacs to take the high ground for some of your marines spreading out your army. Use the marauders to slow your opponent down while your siege tanks plug away demolishing your opponent. Be sure to get a well timed EMP on the enemy’s main force and pop stim.

So to recap what the keys to this build/strat are:
1. Reaper harass not over committing and securing the map.
2. Out tech your opponent Mid game with Banshees delaying or foiling there timing and map control.
3. Cat and Mouse push your opponent off your natural expo and gain time and map control.
4. M/M drop Enemy main hurting economy and buying more time. Again not over committing your units.
5. Expand more than your opponent to ensure economical advantage.
6. Strategically use your units and terrain to win positional battles.


I think this build is very practical and hope you enjoyed my thought process and have much success.
GW.Methos
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States249 Posts
February 26 2010 05:18 GMT
#21
gas trick still works in starcraft 2, huh?
awesome.
i.pwn.n00bs
Dex4
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany19 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-26 07:19:29
February 26 2010 06:59 GMT
#22
hi all

wanted to start a new thread on this but i just registered to post this tho i have been around this forum for a year now.

anyways if you are willing to play diffirent strats, here is one i've came up with after reading the new patch notes. (its not a real build but a strategy or an army composition)

its the usage of "Feedback" IN PvZ ONLY

first off: check how much energy an overseer has after it has finished morphing. If it has low energy, then just dont read all the text below. If it has full energy right after it has finished morphing, then here you go:

A nice mix of 1 sentry, 2-3 DTs (depending on how fast you want to deal damage), 2-3 HTs (depending on how much energy your HTs have overall = how many overseers you are expecting to be morphed before you tear your enemy apart) and a bunch of zealots/stalkers depending on the enemies tech/units just to protect your HTs as they have to survive long enough to use "Feedback" on the overseers that have been called in to uncloak the DTs (Overseers should go down after just one spell, thats why HTs are the perfect complement for DTs in this situation). So DTs are your damagedealing unit. HTs protect DTs and HTs are protected by the rest of you army (storms should come in handy right there but it depends on your enemie's units. Basically try not to waste energy on storms if you think that you wont have enough left for Feedback)

Highest priority target: Overseer (note: it can be affected by "feedback" only when it has energy, so only when it has finished morphing)

Now a sentry is another important part of this strat. Research Illusion and use it on your HTs before you engage his army/base with your DTs. Since his Overseers are done for, Illusions are just perfect to protect your HTs even better. And sentries also help you to survive until you get your first DTs and HTs.

Remember! Dont waste your HTs and the "HTs bodyguards" on attacking the opponents army. Let your DTs do the job and try to keep your HTs alive as hard as you can.

You should watch out for Spore Crawlers, its the only thing that the Zerg can spot your DTs with if you can successfully get rid of the overseers, so morphing Spore Crawlers are your 2nd target if the zerg even gets the idea to do that.


im not in the beta so i cant post a full build order, but you just have to survive long enough to get these hightech units out and then you should be good just with few of them. so its up to you how to get there. It sure will require some APM, but with your HTs and their protectors hotkeyed to different keys to pull those HTs out of danger in time you should be fine.

I'd really like some response to this idea of mine. Are there any holes in this strat or is "Feedback" really as overpowered as i think it is? Please try it out, as im really concerned about the way they go with the HT. Thanks in advance.

Edit: It kinda reminds me of corsair/DT build from SC1 but lot safer since not every overlord can spot your DTs and your corsairs are not threatened by scourge all the time.
2nd Edit: Oh and corsairs needed a few seconds to kill an overlord. Those templars dont mess around that long.
Stimmmed
Profile Joined February 2010
United States39 Posts
February 26 2010 18:23 GMT
#23
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113889

Grief/Stimmed's TvP build
Thats the stuff
Bosu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3247 Posts
February 27 2010 00:06 GMT
#24
Bosu Build

6 Drone
7 Pool
6 overlord
6 6 zerglings
attack at this point, que zerglings to opponents main
18 overlord

http://www.mediafire.com/?i40ynyzzwfm
#1 Kwanro Fan
eNyoron
Profile Joined September 2009
United States170 Posts
February 27 2010 02:22 GMT
#25
For use on 2 player maps, TvZ (it can probably be adapted to 4 player maps, just haven't gotten a good scouting pattern yet. Toss tends not to play greedy enough for this build to work).

-9 Rax bunker rush-

forward 9 rax (not a proxy, but far enough that it can be used to wall in the natural)
10 depot (next to rax)
Rally rax to zerg's natural
Send both SCVs to zerg's natural (the depot and rax should finish at quick succession)
11 marine (continuous production)
Personally I keep the CC rallied to minerals and just manually send 2 more SCVs to the fight. You can choose to rally them there, but you don't want to sacrifice too much econ.
If you see a fast expo by zerg, build a bunker next to it. You've nullified zerg's econ advantage.
If not, proceed to main. A competent zerg most certainly has a pool up by now. Look for larvae, if they're not all being turned into eggs, then zerg has cut unit production to get a queen. Build a bunker to kill drones at the mineral line. If they actually went full lings before queen, your best bet is probably to take a few pot shots at the drones and pull out.

Now, this isn't a true build... just an opening. I like to get a fast CC after rushing, others might prefer to get more rax and continue playing all aggressive like, or set up the refineries to start teching. Regardless, this is nice for punishing greedy opponents.
0sm9sm8sm... the beginning of the end.
buKe
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada168 Posts
February 27 2010 02:46 GMT
#26
The Ghost Terran Build
Terran vs Zerg

Build order:
10/11 supply
11/11 barracks (no marines)
13/19 gas (upgrade first barracks to tech lab right away)
15/19 second barracks (no marines upgrade to tech lab right away)
16/19 orbital command
17/19 second gas
17/19 create first reaper
18/19 second supply depot
Continue to pump reapers out of 2 barracks and harass with them constantly, creating a mini-contain.
Around 25/27 create factory
27/27 ghost academy
Reaper harass should be over
27/35 create ghost
28/35 pump marine/maurader and 1-2 tanks for a turtle army vs probably roach/hydras
34/35 ghost should be ready with a nuke and cloak
send ghost to enemy base cloaked and drop the nuke
enemy should not have an expo because of your reapers

After the nuke go ahead and play normal if he doesnt leave xD
This works because it takes advantage of the fact that zergs dont have early detection and you can easily dodge spine crawler detect (if they make them.)
It actually works, Ive done it alot, cant find reps atm sadly.



drivec
Profile Joined May 2009
United States354 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-27 04:05:25
February 27 2010 03:47 GMT
#27
safe 1 base opening with good transition into any midgame build. this build felt better vs protoss then zerg.
with the new update this build feels like it might not be fully optimized because racks finishs alot faster then before so going 9 racks might be just as safe now.
also i normaly put a bunker at ramp i could have done better job walling this build still needs opitmization with newest patch but overal it lets u transition into almost anything mid game with really safe opener without loseing alot of mineing time i believe
8/11 racks
10/11 gas
10/11 orbital command
10/11 marine use it to scout for proxy or send to watch tower on certain maps
11/11 depot(if possible build at ramp for wall off) hopefully this finishes right before your orbital
11/11 reactor/techlab
command and reactor finishes into a smooth transition. but even then u got 10 scv and mule at around 2mins and u can start pumping rines.
i would pull off your scvs on gas maby not all just leave 1. to get more minerals to make another racks.

this build leaves midgame very open u could go seige into expo or pump alot of mnm for mid game push.


i would put more of the bo but from here its really open and needs opitmization. but idealy
[url blocked]
i always like to transition to viking and marines with ravens.
tvp safe is the second version of beta it felt very optimized after getting the reactor on the racks

edited i had to fix ordering
starcraft is chess at warp speed
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
February 27 2010 06:55 GMT
#28
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I've been wondering if there could be any value to using the Sentry's Hallucination ability to create Hallucinated Phoenixes to provide free scouting pretty much at will (once the research has been paid, of course).
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
Knyteguy
Profile Joined December 2009
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-27 07:04:46
February 27 2010 07:03 GMT
#29
Here's my fast roach build order:

10 - Overlord
10 - Spawning Pool
14 - Queen (ASAP, 14 would be better)
14 - Gas
16 - Overlord
17 - Roach Warren
22 - Second Gas
24 - Lair

From here you can expand to a second base. Make sure you scout. If you see your enemies going air, build a hydra den and stop Roach production. If Roaches have any weakness, it's that air tears them to pieces.

Switch to Zerglings if you see lots of marauders or Stalkers.

Try to attack as soon as you have 4-5 roaches. Don't lose them though!

Make sure you use inject larva as often as possible!

This is pretty much my standard play build. It got me to gold ranking so it must be at least ok.
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
February 27 2010 21:14 GMT
#30
4 hatch before pool.
3 hatch before gas.
Can't post timings since I don't have beta.

"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
TopherC
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1 Post
February 28 2010 00:58 GMT
#31
Alright this is simply speculation because I do not have the beta, and i'm wondering how viable this strategy is.

First off the whole point is to block off your base as a protoss. Many protoss mass warp gates and warp in units so why not block off the front of your base with all those gates. You can then be warping in units outside of you base with a pylon near the side of the wall or warp in inside of your base for quick defense. This would make it very hard for them to go through all of your warp gates to attack your main and if you need you can create warp prisms to transfer some units out of your base. Collossus can also walk outside anyway so they would be no problem to build. The only difficult section would be creating immortals. They would probably have to come in later game when you go to your natural expansion. In the beginning of the game when you cant yet warp in units you would simply build near the choke point but leave space for units to enter and exit. Then later in the game upgrade you gates and block off the choke entirely.

Comments on this would be very appreciated as would replays because I cannot test it myself. Just my take on a new strategy that seems fun and very affective considering the warp in technology available. Sorry i cant post build orders or anything, iv watched alot but not good with that terminology.
Meow, Neow, Yow. The complexity of cats sounds in three languages: English, Japanese, and Korean.
Wire
Profile Joined July 2009
United States494 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 05:58:52
March 01 2010 05:57 GMT
#32
On February 27 2010 11:46 buKe wrote:
The Ghost Terran Build
Terran vs Zerg

Build order:
10/11 supply
11/11 barracks (no marines)
13/19 gas (upgrade first barracks to tech lab right away)
15/19 second barracks (no marines upgrade to tech lab right away)
16/19 orbital command
17/19 second gas
17/19 create first reaper
18/19 second supply depot
Continue to pump reapers out of 2 barracks and harass with them constantly, creating a mini-contain.
Around 25/27 create factory
27/27 ghost academy
Reaper harass should be over
27/35 create ghost
28/35 pump marine/maurader and 1-2 tanks for a turtle army vs probably roach/hydras
34/35 ghost should be ready with a nuke and cloak
send ghost to enemy base cloaked and drop the nuke
enemy should not have an expo because of your reapers

After the nuke go ahead and play normal if he doesnt leave xD
This works because it takes advantage of the fact that zergs dont have early detection and you can easily dodge spine crawler detect (if they make them.)
It actually works, Ive done it alot, cant find reps atm sadly.


this is 800+ gas. exactly how you rush that I'm not sure X_X

edit: i know you didn't call it a rush but the whole point is to keep zerg from getting lair to get detection so you do have to hurry it up really, even if you scare them into building more lings / roaches to defend against reapers, its only 150/100 to upgrade
"You sacced your ovie, which is great, but then you didn't watch it die, which is bad :("
UnderWorld_Dream
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada219 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 06:13:31
March 01 2010 06:11 GMT
#33
On February 27 2010 15:55 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I've been wondering if there could be any value to using the Sentry's Hallucination ability to create Hallucinated Phoenixes to provide free scouting pretty much at will (once the research has been paid, of course).


Hallucination doesnt work the way it worked in SC:BW. You basicly get to choose the unit you want to create even if you have none of them in your army. However, no flyers can be hallucinated.

I made a terran GG when he saw 5 collossi climbing their way into his base. They were hallucinations and the poor guy did not realize it and GGed probably claiming race imbalance XD
-fj.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Samoa462 Posts
March 01 2010 19:08 GMT
#34
I'd appreciate if you played my Ghost opening for TvZ

I assume there will be links to vods as soon as you do some of these builds?

10 rax
11 gas
11 supply
@rax finish: orbital command, marine, scout with builder
12 gas, keep making SCVs

if you scout early pressure: make more marines
18 ghost academy, tech lab and another depot
if not,
15 ghost academy and tech lab

@acad finish: ghost. Hide him when he comes out.
@150 gas: cloak

@50% cloak: poke out with marines or an scv. If you can push away any scouting worker or anything, do it. If the path out of your base is clear of his units, move your ghost out and hide it somewhere on the map.

If you feel pressure, make more barracks and pump units. If not, make a CC inside your main and continue to make ghosts.

@100% cloak:
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
March 02 2010 07:17 GMT
#35
On March 01 2010 15:11 MaDTeMpLaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2010 15:55 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I've been wondering if there could be any value to using the Sentry's Hallucination ability to create Hallucinated Phoenixes to provide free scouting pretty much at will (once the research has been paid, of course).


Hallucination doesnt work the way it worked in SC:BW. You basicly get to choose the unit you want to create even if you have none of them in your army. However, no flyers can be hallucinated.

I made a terran GG when he saw 5 collossi climbing their way into his base. They were hallucinations and the poor guy did not realize it and GGed probably claiming race imbalance XD

You can hallucinate both Phoenix and Warp Ray. David Kim himself uses Hallucinated Pheonix to scout in Orb + Haemonculus (Rhavanna) vs David Kim + poodadar.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 02 2010 07:18 GMT
#36
In my TvP Mech Guide there are 3 builds which I've used. They are not listed by supply, as there is a fair amount of variance, especially due to the number of marines you want/OC timing which is not set in stone. There should be ample relative timings for the builds to be executed. PM me if you really want a more specific BO.

I would really like to see those played by other players than myself.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
March 02 2010 07:48 GMT
#37
Ok so I started going through some of these builds. The Liquipedia account currently sits at the top of Gold League Division 16, so no guarantees as to the quality of my opponents and the impact that might have had on a particular build:

14 Gas Speed (ZvP)[14 Extractor Speedlings] - Extremely effective when I used it, but when Protoss properly walls off his base with 2 Zealots blocking the choke (as my opponent didn't do), the effectiveness of this build decreases. I think a better option might be to skip the speed and gas and instead get a faster natural Hatchery instead, but I'm having trouble actually finding a timing where my Queens/Zerglings don't get delayed.

Thereisnosaurus's Viking harass into Timing Push - Didn't get around to it (Where are you Zergies?), but it looks promising. My only issue is the extraordinary amount of gas the build needs. Ravens + Vikings are extremely gas heavy units, so some troops might have to be cut.

Battle's build - Is the goal of this to transition into Sauron Zerg or something? I'm not exactly sure what the build is trying to accomplish.

blowies's build - I didn't see your post, but I went ahead and tried a reaper first strategy against a Protoss on Kula's Ravine. He ended up losing quite a few Probes in mining time. However, he opted to go for a Warp Prism rush that alllmost killed me, but some mismicro by him saved me. The Warp Prism was probably a mistake, though my macro wasn't that hot either. I think it's important to note how map dependent this strategy is though. There has to be a large cliff side where reapers can get into the Toss base without or with little detection.

I have not gotten to anything on the 2nd page. I'll get to it soon (perhaps tomorrow.)
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
ItsBigfoot
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States432 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-02 08:57:01
March 02 2010 08:32 GMT
#38
+1 Void Ray Rush PvZ

9/10 Pylon
13/18 Gateway (preferably by ramp to wall off)
14/18 Gas
16/18 Pylon
17/18 Gas
(Chrono a couple times by now)
100% Gateway - Build Core/Pump Zealots
100% Core - Air Attack (Chrono this twice)
Next 150 Gas - Stargate
Next 100 Gas - Sentry (should have 2-3 Zealots by now)
100% Stargate - Voidray (chrono once). should be around 34/42 Supply

After this I go for another couple gates, usually wind up building a second sentry to save minerals for the extra gates, Void Ray should pop out with Air Attack just about done, research warp gates right after air attack finishes and keep up your zealot count as needed. The whole thought behind it is +1 attack is a 50% increase to the voidray damage, which means you'll be killing their hatchery a lot faster. I did this in a couple friendly games against my cousin, so I really don't know if this is fast enough, or if you'd need to add on a second gate to hold off a rush vs good zergs. Chrono your nexus as much as you want so long as you keep 2 for your core and 1 for your voidray. Stop probes when you have 30 (6 on gas 24 in main)

Not really sure on the best follow ups, I usually just keep making voidrays and pump out of 3 warpgates till they die, but you could probably expand or tech up to fleet beacon right afterwards though (or go robo/whatever).

This might work in PvT if he does a mech opening, but it isn't really worth it unless you're sure he's doing mech, since anything over 4-5 marines will rape a voidray. as for pvp, you'd probably need to do 2 gate - core - warpgate first, so a base snipe might be too late. still, rays rape immortals and colossi, so it might be worth it as an opening that isn't 2 gate robo

The Sentry isn't needed so much as you just have an extra 100 gas around that time doing nothing
Kal Fighting!
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-02 09:20:53
March 02 2010 09:19 GMT
#39
On March 02 2010 16:48 Mystlord wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok so I started going through some of these builds. The Liquipedia account currently sits at the top of Gold League Division 16, so no guarantees as to the quality of my opponents and the impact that might have had on a particular build:

14 Gas Speed (ZvP)[14 Extractor Speedlings] - Extremely effective when I used it, but when Protoss properly walls off his base with 2 Zealots blocking the choke (as my opponent didn't do), the effectiveness of this build decreases. I think a better option might be to skip the speed and gas and instead get a faster natural Hatchery instead, but I'm having trouble actually finding a timing where my Queens/Zerglings don't get delayed.
+ Show Spoiler +

Thereisnosaurus's Viking harass into Timing Push - Didn't get around to it (Where are you Zergies?), but it looks promising. My only issue is the extraordinary amount of gas the build needs. Ravens + Vikings are extremely gas heavy units, so some troops might have to be cut.

Battle's build - Is the goal of this to transition into Sauron Zerg or something? I'm not exactly sure what the build is trying to accomplish.

blowies's build - I didn't see your post, but I went ahead and tried a reaper first strategy against a Protoss on Kula's Ravine. He ended up losing quite a few Probes in mining time. However, he opted to go for a Warp Prism rush that alllmost killed me, but some mismicro by him saved me. The Warp Prism was probably a mistake, though my macro wasn't that hot either. I think it's important to note how map dependent this strategy is though. There has to be a large cliff side where reapers can get into the Toss base without or with little detection.

I have not gotten to anything on the 2nd page. I'll get to it soon (perhaps tomorrow.)

Yeah i got a bit lazy to finish the write up

when you're playing aganist a very well defending toss you have 3 options
1 my personal fav to use backstab leave a unit between your base and their and then go hide your lings around a nice dark coner when you notice they moved out back stab, if they come back which most do they lost the game they lost too much econ to get back and i've already started pumping more units to defend if they come back after cleaning up my backstab
2 wait for mutalisk i don't really like this ususally with timing you'll more likely meet them in the middle after they got their immortal or colossus w.e
3 go bane lings 3 4 banelings can easily break enough zealots for you to split the rest of your lings by i don't like this one too much as 1 it takes extra tech 2 it takes gas away from your first few mutalisk
although i didn't include gas timings in the guide you really shoud have 3 4 extractors going and enough drones to get back on mins by the time your spire finishes
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 02 2010 09:37 GMT
#40
On March 02 2010 16:48 Mystlord wrote:
14 Gas Speed (ZvP)[14 Extractor Speedlings] - Extremely effective when I used it, but when Protoss properly walls off his base with 2 Zealots blocking the choke (as my opponent didn't do), the effectiveness of this build decreases. I think a better option might be to skip the speed and gas and instead get a faster natural Hatchery instead, but I'm having trouble actually finding a timing where my Queens/Zerglings don't get delayed.

Speed is pretty essential if you want to fight zealots though. Just need to know what the protoss is doing (as in is he hard teching immortals or something). It takes 3 zeals on most maps to block a choke btw~ (unless you wall).
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
March 02 2010 17:58 GMT
#41
I'll so some more builds tonight maybe, but WL is at 1300 tonight so... Anyway, I lings against zealots fail so you essentially need roaches against toss early game. Speed can be useful when you're trying to be aggressive, but a smart protoss will semi-wall off his natural and take it with zealot sentry immortal (at least that's what I see). I'm still wondering whether the early economic trade off for speedlings is a good deterrent for Protoss.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
lIlIlIlIlIlI
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Korea (South)3851 Posts
March 03 2010 01:15 GMT
#42
--- Nuked ---
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
March 03 2010 02:16 GMT
#43
On March 03 2010 10:15 randomKo_Orean wrote:
biterrrrrrssssss

lol

Is that supposed to be the half cut off part of [aaarrrr]biterrrrrrssssss? If so, I'm sorry, they were removed

I can try a mothership build though or something if someone is willing to come up with a way to get there without dying
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-03 09:54:42
March 03 2010 09:52 GMT
#44
Ok, bump for quick update before OSL:

Dex4's Feedback Build - It doesn't work because Overseers start with 50 energy, and once you get the first one, any subsequent ones will just spam the changeling ability to remove the threat of feedback.

Stimmmed's FE Banshee rush - I can't find a way to hold an early expo without compromising the banshee timing. Once Protoss gets Observers, all he needs are some cannons at each expansion line and it's hard to get any harassment in, especially if Protoss gets Blink for his Stalkers. Your Banshee gets surprised and they end up dying.

Bosu Build - Have not gotten a chance to test this yet. Whenever I spawn Zerg I always end up on something stupid like the space one that's like Paranoid Android or LT. (Spawned twice)

eNyoron's Forward Rax - Again, the only TvZ I played was on that Desert map that's like Raid Assault. Not exactly the best map to test this.

buKe's Ghost Terran build - Too gas intensive. I can't produce mass reapers, nor can I get a minicontain on the Zerg. Speedlings just rape that so hard.

-fj-'s Ghost Build - Not exactly sure what this is supposed to accomplish. Could you tell me how I can support 200 gas ghosts? Is this harassment?

PS - Did not get to ItsBigfoot's Void Ray rush. It seems a little luck based though. You're betting that Zerg won't go for an aggressive ramp bust build.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
wut_wut3
Profile Joined December 2009
United States221 Posts
March 04 2010 14:29 GMT
#45
1 Hatch Queen into Early roach harrass
10 - overlord
13 - pool
15 - extractor
16 - (right before pool finishes larva comes out) overlord
16 - (100% pool) queen
18 - roach den
18 - extractor
x2-4lings
100% queen - Lair
20/22 -26 - roaches
26 - overlord
100% lair - burrow

If you do not sacrifice your first 2-4lings to scouting and harrassment your roach count will be 4 not 6.

From here it depends on what you want to do,

mass roaches need the speed upgrade but you shouldnt have to expand but can

hydras will need a den then an expansion (air units will keep you in your base)

mutas will need a spire then an expansion (make sure to pump lings with excess minerals)(against terran a baneling nest is extremely helpful to distract the marines and mauraders while you snipe medivacs)

yes, yes i am a noob
MiyaviTeddy
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada697 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-04 22:04:23
March 04 2010 22:01 GMT
#46
10 overlord
13 pool (gas when pool is about 90%ish done, before could be better)
15 overlord
14 queen, 4lings and 1 roach warren

this is probably the most universal zerg build, safe too I find.
Aiyeeeee
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 04 2010 23:59 GMT
#47
Mente's TvT builds:

At the moment these are the only builds I've been really defining and polishing as I'm incredibly frustrated with protoss and zerg seems extremely similar to that of sc1.

2 of my terran openers start like so:
10 rax
11 refinery (build this as soon as you can after 11th scv comes out and throw 3 on gas immediately)
11 orbital command
11 supply depot
12 scv
12 marine
13 fact
14 scout (check for marine rush and here's usually where things change)
You're looking for gas mainly and how many marines he has already. If 4 plus siege tank and siege mode are your next goals as well as a bunker with the additional marines you're producing.
If he's "fast gasing" (most of the time it's not nearly as fast as this build so here's where we get the advantage) I like to go for 1 port banshee harass into a timing push with tanks and thors.
Timing push with banshee and thors:
need to build 3 marines up at your ramp while teching, usually third comes out on 20~ for me.
17 supply
18 gas
star port as soon as factory is done+ factory tech add on. Usually finishes around this time~
Lift off factory for star port to take tech addon. Build banshee.
23 depot
24 factory tech lab addon
25 ebay and then build 1 maybe 2 turrets
25+ tank/siege

At this point with a solid harass from the banshee you can not only scout but potentially do a lot of damage and slow whatever he's doing down massively.

Continuing to pump marines/tanks. At 2nd tank, throw down armory.
Should have 3 tanks before armory finishes and then build 1 thor and a cc.

Push out with 3 scvs the 3 tanks and 8+~ marines and thor. Either the game will end here with some good micro or you'll have the opportunity to expand again and mass up. Star port continues to be used to make additional banshee's to scout and kill off his siege tanks or make vikings for anti air.

When he's massing marines:
If your scout sees that he's massing marines, prepare for a siege expand or delayed harass, but wait for the attack.
Keep the tank far enough away from your ramp so it doesn't get hit. Siege should finish around the time the attack comes. Normal timings as before but using the gas/minerals that you would have for a star port is now instead used for siege/bunker/more marines.

Marine frenzy build:
Pretty much this build is to punish any terran techers.
10 depot
12 rax
15 gas
15 rax
17 depot
18 Orbital
pump marines constantly out of double reactor addon and keep up with depots usually add this after 2 marines come out of first barracks. Can cut scvs to further ensure you get mans out onto the field.
Attack with 10~ marines
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
buKe
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada168 Posts
March 05 2010 00:45 GMT
#48
On March 03 2010 18:52 Mystlord wrote:

buKe's Ghost Terran build - Too gas intensive. I can't produce mass reapers, nor can I get a minicontain on the Zerg. Speedlings just rape that so hard.
.

Strategy doesn't work anymore. After the reaper nerf this unit is pretty useless now. I should of posted reps, maybe your timing as off but it was never too gas intensive, I mean I had some gas problems but not so bad that I couldn't do the build. Standard was 7-9minute Nuke. But, yeah doesn't work cause Reapers aren't massable anymore.
-fj.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Samoa462 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 07:12:11
March 05 2010 03:58 GMT
#49
On March 03 2010 18:52 Mystlord wrote:
-fj-'s Ghost Build - Not exactly sure what this is supposed to accomplish. Could you tell me how I can support 200 gas ghosts? Is this harassment?


You aren't supposed to pump ghosts. You are supposed to get two and kill drones / zerglings with them, and expand off of the pressure you put on. This isn't the best build, though. I would only play it on 4 player maps like kulas ravine where you can wall with one depot and one rax. If they know its coming, it won't be as strong.

The purpose of this build isn't to kill him straight up, but to put a new kind of pressure on zergs that they have never seen before. The early(ish) ghosts should be able to infiltrate his base and kill some drones. If he can get an overseer quickly, you may be able to kill it with snipe before your ghosts die, especially if you find it morphing. In an ideal typical situation, you will come in, kill something like 10 drones, 1 overseer, get intel, and leave before energy runs out. If he is going a lot of roaches and doesn't even have a lair at the 8 minute mark, its possible you could kill a ton of drones, if not all of them, or keep him from mining for a long time if he runs them away.

Ok, I've played this a couple more times and come up with the following adjustments:

10 depot
12 rax
12 gas
send out scouting scv
13 gas
15 orbital command
marine
16 rax
scv
tech lab

if you see an early roach warren: 17 marauder
otherwise: 17 marine 18 marine

19 supply
19 ghost academy (asap or 80% rax)

if you feel pressure coming from roaches, make another marauder

@ 100% rax: tech lab
@ 100% tech lab1: ghost
asap or @100% second marauder: ghost
@ 150 gas research cloak

At this stage you want to pump marauders, depots and scvs. It would be great if you could have your ghosts near his base and undetected when cloak finishes, but you practically have to be boxer to make that happen 100% of the time while defending your base and managing your build.

While you harass, you can expand and then add a factory and another barrack for a transition into a good normal strategy like tanks or marine / medivac. Your expansion should be safe from a roach attack because you made something like 6 or 8 marauders, but it can't hurt to get a bunker or two as well just in case. As you expand, you might make one or two more ghosts from your barracks to offset the large chunk of minerals used and protect you somewhat from light units. Later, you might use your remaining ghosts in a medivac to do additional harassment, possibly with nukes.
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
March 05 2010 04:06 GMT
#50
man, there are like no protoss builds. I really want to see what people can do creatively with warp gates and such
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 04:54:29
March 05 2010 04:53 GMT
#51
3 gate rush to void ray doesn't need creativity :D

I hate their new patch it just made zvt even harder to win late game zvt

I was messing around in pvp forge FE builds but i couldn't make it work too well on some maps so i didn't develop it.
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
March 05 2010 05:56 GMT
#52
On March 05 2010 08:59 Mente wrote:
Mente's TvT builds:

At the moment these are the only builds I've been really defining and polishing as I'm incredibly frustrated with protoss and zerg seems extremely similar to that of sc1.

2 of my terran openers start like so:
10 rax
11 refinery (build this as soon as you can after 11th scv comes out and throw 3 on gas immediately)
11 orbital command
11 supply depot
12 scv
12 marine
13 fact
14 scout (check for marine rush and here's usually where things change)
You're looking for gas mainly and how many marines he has already. If 4 plus siege tank and siege mode are your next goals as well as a bunker with the additional marines you're producing.
If he's "fast gasing" (most of the time it's not nearly as fast as this build so here's where we get the advantage) I like to go for 1 port banshee harass into a timing push with tanks and thors.
Timing push with banshee and thors:
need to build 3 marines up at your ramp while teching, usually third comes out on 20~ for me.
17 supply
18 gas
star port as soon as factory is done+ factory tech add on. Usually finishes around this time~
Lift off factory for star port to take tech addon. Build banshee.
23 depot
24 factory tech lab addon
25 ebay and then build 1 maybe 2 turrets
25+ tank/siege

At this point with a solid harass from the banshee you can not only scout but potentially do a lot of damage and slow whatever he's doing down massively.

Continuing to pump marines/tanks. At 2nd tank, throw down armory.
Should have 3 tanks before armory finishes and then build 1 thor and a cc.

Push out with 3 scvs the 3 tanks and 8+~ marines and thor. Either the game will end here with some good micro or you'll have the opportunity to expand again and mass up. Star port continues to be used to make additional banshee's to scout and kill off his siege tanks or make vikings for anti air.

When he's massing marines:
If your scout sees that he's massing marines, prepare for a siege expand or delayed harass, but wait for the attack.
Keep the tank far enough away from your ramp so it doesn't get hit. Siege should finish around the time the attack comes. Normal timings as before but using the gas/minerals that you would have for a star port is now instead used for siege/bunker/more marines.

Marine frenzy build:
Pretty much this build is to punish any terran techers.
10 depot
12 rax
15 gas
15 rax
17 depot
18 Orbital
pump marines constantly out of double reactor addon and keep up with depots usually add this after 2 marines come out of first barracks. Can cut scvs to further ensure you get mans out onto the field.
Attack with 10~ marines

I'm almost certain you made a mistake or you're not playing economically enough. There is no reason why you want to supply cap yourself at 11 for such a long time. Your economy is just going to fall flat on its face.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 06:40:42
March 05 2010 06:24 GMT
#53
On March 05 2010 14:56 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2010 08:59 Mente wrote:
Mente's TvT builds:

At the moment these are the only builds I've been really defining and polishing as I'm incredibly frustrated with protoss and zerg seems extremely similar to that of sc1.

2 of my terran openers start like so:
10 rax
11 refinery (build this as soon as you can after 11th scv comes out and throw 3 on gas immediately)
11 orbital command
11 supply depot
12 scv
12 marine
13 fact
14 scout (check for marine rush and here's usually where things change)
You're looking for gas mainly and how many marines he has already. If 4 plus siege tank and siege mode are your next goals as well as a bunker with the additional marines you're producing.
If he's "fast gasing" (most of the time it's not nearly as fast as this build so here's where we get the advantage) I like to go for 1 port banshee harass into a timing push with tanks and thors.
Timing push with banshee and thors:
need to build 3 marines up at your ramp while teching, usually third comes out on 20~ for me.
17 supply
18 gas
star port as soon as factory is done+ factory tech add on. Usually finishes around this time~
Lift off factory for star port to take tech addon. Build banshee.
23 depot
24 factory tech lab addon
25 ebay and then build 1 maybe 2 turrets
25+ tank/siege

At this point with a solid harass from the banshee you can not only scout but potentially do a lot of damage and slow whatever he's doing down massively.

Continuing to pump marines/tanks. At 2nd tank, throw down armory.
Should have 3 tanks before armory finishes and then build 1 thor and a cc.

Push out with 3 scvs the 3 tanks and 8+~ marines and thor. Either the game will end here with some good micro or you'll have the opportunity to expand again and mass up. Star port continues to be used to make additional banshee's to scout and kill off his siege tanks or make vikings for anti air.

When he's massing marines:
If your scout sees that he's massing marines, prepare for a siege expand or delayed harass, but wait for the attack.
Keep the tank far enough away from your ramp so it doesn't get hit. Siege should finish around the time the attack comes. Normal timings as before but using the gas/minerals that you would have for a star port is now instead used for siege/bunker/more marines.

Marine frenzy build:
Pretty much this build is to punish any terran techers.
10 depot
12 rax
15 gas
15 rax
17 depot
18 Orbital
pump marines constantly out of double reactor addon and keep up with depots usually add this after 2 marines come out of first barracks. Can cut scvs to further ensure you get mans out onto the field.
Attack with 10~ marines

I'm almost certain you made a mistake or you're not playing economically enough. There is no reason why you want to supply cap yourself at 11 for such a long time. Your economy is just going to fall flat on its face.


You don't supply cap yourself for that long. It pays off for the faster mule. Trust me, I've done the math and comparisons for it. It does not fall flat on it's face period. Try it out for yourself.

edit: all I have to say is don't knock it till you try it. It's not nearly as big of a deal as it seems to be. You might have more success with it than you might think <3

ps I'm kinda drunk right now so I'm sorry if I seem assholeish
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
woody_
Profile Joined July 2009
Spain38 Posts
March 05 2010 14:14 GMT
#54
On March 05 2010 07:01 MiyaviTeddy wrote:
10 overlord
13 pool (gas when pool is about 90%ish done, before could be better)
15 overlord
14 queen, 4lings and 1 roach warren

this is probably the most universal zerg build, safe too I find.


IMO this BO its only usefull in ZvZ

"I was captured by its magic- the powerful and undeniable magic of destiny called Starcraft∙∙∙." Lim Yo Hwan
KungKras
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden484 Posts
March 05 2010 14:29 GMT
#55
If I come up with a BO and send it to liquipedia. Does that mean that I get that build named after myself? :D
"When life gives me lemons, I go look for oranges"
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
March 05 2010 14:34 GMT
#56
i want a starcraft 2 version of the stove ... phoenix, dt, mothership

get on it
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
March 05 2010 14:50 GMT
#57
actually, i have a more serious idea:
pick protoss. do something like 1 gate care -> 3 warpgates and a robo
build a pylon in the retreat path of your opponent, as you make them retreat.
warp in additional units where theyre retreating...
that would be cool
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
BeyondCtrL
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden642 Posts
March 05 2010 14:56 GMT
#58
Terran FE using Planetary Fortress

I've been brainstorming about the Terran metagame and how a lot of the Terran build involve bio builds going off of one base timing attacks. They work really well, but I think mech has a lot of unnoticed potential due to the heavy gas requirements. The BO I am trying to make work is a standard opening for a Terran against both Protoss and Zerg that can withstand early pressure and maintain an early expansion.

So far this is mostly theoretical and I have tried it on Lost Temple (probably the best map there is, imho) and the timing of it seems practical. So bear with me while I list the BO and my reasoning.

10 SD
12 Barracks
14 Refinery (1 SCV on gas)
15-16 Barracks should be complete and you should have about enough minerals (don't make SCV until you can afford it) to start a CC in your base and start pumping marines (don't upgrade Barracks yet, CC at 15 if don't use SCV scout, 16 with scout) + wall off (if pssible).
19 Add 2nd SCV to gas and pump SCV + Marines (ratio depending on early pressure)
22 Add 3rd SCV to gas start construction of an Engineering Bay and Orbital Command

Now once your CC is done lift of and float to expansion and you should have precisely enough gas and minerals to start upgrading it to a PF. Compliment it with two bunkers (on LT one on the juttting ledge and one right next to the PF against the ramp. You should have enough marines to fully or nearly fully occupy both bunkers which will both cover each other supporting your PF and makeing run-by's extremely tough. This should be about 6-7 minutes game time. That much firepower at your door (coupled with repair) should stave off any attack at that point in the game. Adding another bunker if you want for a total of 12 marines. Line SD's infront of your bunkers and PF to counter banelings.

Now you are at a cross-road of choice here. You can opt for 3-4 gas to go heavy mech (for Zerg I would imagine, and recommend getting reactor SP asap for 2x Viking for Overlord sniping and try to force the Zerg to go Hydra instead of muta. And keep those Ovies away from your base to stave off any Nydus surprises (can use Radar Tower if you want). If you manage to stave off the mutalisk and force the Zerg to Hydra you can mech up with Siege and Hellions.

or...

You can go a bit easier on the gas and go for MnMnM's

Regardless of what you choose the marines you have will help stave off any all rushes (hopefully) of ground and air (remember to constatly produce marines until you have a Factory and SP. And by 10 min ingame you should have have a fully operational and hopefully unbreakable front door. They key element is basically getting air-superiority to force your oppenent to come to your front door. Or if they are passive the econ boost will allow you to field a large army of gas expensive units and upgrades allowing you to push with a ground force supported by vikings and tanks and control the map.

I realize this BO is quite rusty, but I think with practice the timings and BO could yet further be improved.

threehundred
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada911 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-07 00:01:51
March 07 2010 00:00 GMT
#59
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114689

+ Show Spoiler +

THE T v TPZ STANDARD BUILD ORDER VS EVERYTHING IS AS FOLLOWS <3

Now I'm no Platinum Player, nor DO i actually have a BETA KEY (I play on my friends account that is in GOLD LEAGUE), I play about 8-20 games every few days and I believe I have about a 75% win ratio against most players at this 'matchmaking' level.

10 supply SCV finishes and scouts ASAP
12 barracks SCV finishes and builds supply wall (2nd depot)
14 refinery 2 SCVs on gas (don't take any off you need it for next few steps)
15-16 orbital command you should have exactly around 150 minerals and SCV just finishing
2nd supply around this time that SCV that built the barracks

1 marine usually against scouting worker
-----
MULE ASAP AND AS MUCH AS YOU CAN
18-20 command center all your economy at this point is waiting for 400 minerals to build a command center
-----
2ND BARRACKS
3RD BARRACKS

these 3 barracks should complete JUST in-time against some early game all-ins, or at least those that i've seen so far
-----
ENGINEERING BAY
1. bio is STRONG from start to finish against all races
2. early upgrades means TIMING PUSHES +1/+1
3. turret(s) deters dark templar rushes
4. turret(s) deters cloaked banshees when your orbital command energy is down from mules
5. PLANETARY FORTRESS EXPO strategy to follow
-----
2ND refinery
-----
(on your barracks obviously, you should have enough gas by now from harvesting earlier)
TECHLAB
REACTOR
REACTOR

-----
+1 ATTACK TO INFANTRY WEAPONS
-----
MACRO PRODUCE 4 MARINES AND 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOU CAN MOVE OUT
-----
SECURING YOUR EXPO AS YOU MOVE OUT:
Obviously your experience comes into play here as to how many units you need to defend this
critical movement.

Basic guidelines as follows:


If you scouted more tier one production facilities then he'll have more combat units PROBABLY as you move out. the number and timing of his units coming in obviously depends on his race, unit choices and building locations (proxy buildings too)

1. A spare SCV can run to his base if you want to be extra safe, or you can scan
2. land command center at natural and build a PLANETARY FORTRESS
3. I transfer about 6-8 SCV, someone will probably do the math on it one day
4. Build 1 turret at least and 1-2 bunkers
5. MAP CONSIDERATIONS
- double entrances should be scouted / visioned accordingly
- stronger choke points need lesser bunkers / probably no need for a planetary fortress if you want to be macro greedy with mules or ready with scans

Thoughts on planetary fortress:


It's just too good against most TIER 1 unit rushes during this timing. You can repair and micro your SCV and they'll give up on your expo and just try breaking your ramp which can be unit blocked by your ground army/walls anyway. Although it is NOT NECESSARY to have a planetary fortress if you scout a lesser early aggressive build anyway, most of the time just building it deters many early attacks anyway (especially stubborn players that choose to get slaughtered causing them to lose the game losing so many units)

-----
CONTINUE PRODUCING SCVS / MACRO WAVES OF UNITS 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOUR CHOKE POINT 'FEELS SECURE'
-----
+1 ARMOR TO INFANTRY
RESEARCH STIMPACK
-----
3RD refinery
-----
FACTORY
FACTORY REACTOR
STARPORT
STARPORT ON FACTORY REACTOR

------
MACRO WAVES OF 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER AND 2 MEDIVACS

I usually push out after 4 medivacs, by that time +1/+1 and STIM should be done WHEN YOU GET THE ENEMY'S BASE/EXPO with MARINE shields to follow.

It's roughly 9-10minutes into the game when I'm at their front door or getting through the backdoor.
------

From here either the game ends with me winning a timing push or winning map control. This same build has worked against all races so far, except some good roach all-in builds that get in through the backdoor that I've been working to be more weary of. The critical point of any FE build anyway is your lack of units to counter quick backdooring during your expo setup and I advise you change your builds on these maps. Like lol blistering sands with the stupid rock formation that is 10 units wide that allows 10 roaches in within the first 5+ minutes.

------

Some race dependent deviations:

4TH BARRACKS WITH REACTOR or TECHLAB
- TvT i just mass more marines
- TvP techlab to get GHOSTS if he gets a quick colussus
- TvZ more marauders if he goes with banelings
FACTORY WITH REACTOR
- TvZ hellions work well to kite banelings and can be macro'ed just as well with 4 marines, 1 marauder and 2 medivacs, you can also macro this during your first push off of your 2 bases
STARPORT WITH TECHLAB
- TvZ mid-late game i think it's the must have AoE if he's better at macro, i've failed though remember to use Ravens effectively


is exactly the

commandcenter -> planetary fortress build i use TvALL

i opt for 2 barracks built right after the command center to keep up in unit macro, and you really won't be far behind in unit production anyway given most map timings
KimTaeyeon MEDIC MU fighting! ^^;;
brocoli
Profile Joined February 2010
Brazil264 Posts
March 07 2010 00:59 GMT
#60
On March 05 2010 23:56 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Terran FE using Planetary Fortress

10 SD
12 Barracks
14 Refinery (1 SCV on gas)
15-16 Barracks should be complete and you should have about enough minerals (don't make SCV until you can afford it) to start a CC in your base and start pumping marines (don't upgrade Barracks yet, CC at 15 if don't use SCV scout, 16 with scout) + wall off (if pssible).
19 Add 2nd SCV to gas and pump SCV + Marines (ratio depending on early pressure)
22 Add 3rd SCV to gas start construction of an Engineering Bay and Orbital Command

Now once your CC is done lift of and float to expansion and you should have precisely enough gas and minerals to start upgrading it to a PF. Compliment it with two bunkers (on LT one on the juttting ledge and one right next to the PF against the ramp. You should have enough marines to fully or nearly fully occupy both bunkers which will both cover each other supporting your PF and makeing run-by's extremely tough. This should be about 6-7 minutes game time. That much firepower at your door (coupled with repair) should stave off any attack at that point in the game. Adding another bunker if you want for a total of 12 marines. Line SD's infront of your bunkers and PF to counter banelings.

Now you are at a cross-road of choice here. You can opt for 3-4 gas to go heavy mech (for Zerg I would imagine, and recommend getting reactor SP asap for 2x Viking for Overlord sniping and try to force the Zerg to go Hydra instead of muta. And keep those Ovies away from your base to stave off any Nydus surprises (can use Radar Tower if you want). If you manage to stave off the mutalisk and force the Zerg to Hydra you can mech up with Siege and Hellions.

or...

You can go a bit easier on the gas and go for MnMnM's

Regardless of what you choose the marines you have will help stave off any all rushes (hopefully) of ground and air (remember to constatly produce marines until you have a Factory and SP. And by 10 min ingame you should have have a fully operational and hopefully unbreakable front door. They key element is basically getting air-superiority to force your oppenent to come to your front door. Or if they are passive the econ boost will allow you to field a large army of gas expensive units and upgrades allowing you to push with a ground force supported by vikings and tanks and control the map.



If this works, Zerg will counterexpand...
could someone experiment transitioning this into thor drops?

Maybe transitioning the 2x vikings into faclab>armory + 2x medivac out of the reactor SP,
build a sensor tower + Stim MedMarine ball walking around to fight off muta harass and control the map (PF deals with ground extremely well) while you get a thor.

Then start pumping vikings, and do Thor+SCV(+Marine) drop (Thor should have the 100 energy by now)
Drop the thor and 250mm the spire/hydra den/hatchery, repair the thors with SCVs and build a Bunker, while vikings deal with hydras/mutas. Heal SCVs with medivacs if they are being attacked, but keep the medivacs safe otherwise (drop marines somewhere else in the meantime if you have them). When the bunker is done, either use it to keep SCVs safer, or bring marines to load it.
If you start losing vikings, or if roaches arrive, load the thor and SCVs into the medivacs and retreat.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
March 07 2010 01:12 GMT
#61
scouting prevents counter expand if you're playing terran and you have = number of bases to the zerg the zerg is at a supreme disadvantage zerg mid and late game is much more gas heavy then terrans.

Personally i've always done this and gone valk against zerg for scouting and limiting their free overlord scouting.
blith
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada69 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-07 05:07:38
March 07 2010 03:37 GMT
#62
Baneling Opener (ZvTbio)

10 Overlord
10 Pool
9 Extractor
8-11 Drones
100% Pool 6 Lings (11-14)
14 Baneling Nest (should have enough minerals+gas right after pool - also try to hide tech behind mineral line)
Lings hatch - scout, deny scout, harass, contain etc...
Save 150 minerals - Queen (13-15)
Save Minerals/Gas
100% Nest - hide 5 lings and morph Banelings for ambush, leave 1 ling to scout and lure.
Overlord
Drones
100 gas Lair
Power Drones with Inject Larva
50% Lair - 2nd Gas
Power Drones
100% Lair - BURROW then- proceed to mid-game by expanding, and/or hydra/spire tech)

Just been doing this the last few games and its worked out so far, so I just want to share it with you guys . Its not perfect, but I like Banelings and its just a good change from all the roach openings.

Important Notes:

HOPEFULLY he'll expect a roach rush if he spots your quick gas, try to kill the scout before putting down nest.

Early lings to sort of panic the Terran,
and more importantly: denying information.
You can pretty much wipe out his army if
you are in a good ambush position. But
like I said some Terrans may not even
suspect Banelings.

If he turtles in 1 base and pushes out later -
you'll have burrowed Banelings waiting for him.
Make sure you scatter your banes though,
so if he happens to scan in front of his base that
he doesn't find all of them (burrow 2 outside his choke,
burrow the other 3 further away).

In mid-game you can expand freely and do whatever you want .
I go for spire so I can see whats up.

Hope this helps people, if not I'll work on it.

Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
March 07 2010 06:26 GMT
#63
Ok I've been kind of out of it lately thanks to RL, so I'll try to get a few more done this weekend. Keep them coming!
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-09 05:18:08
March 09 2010 05:17 GMT
#64
6 probe
.... dunno what after

Mass archon zealot vs zerg with phoenix to lift off pesky hydras running away or broodlords above cliffs. The idea is that in SC1 even though melee units (zealots) were stronger straight up against some ranged units (dragoons) the dragoons would just run away and shoot, being really really pesky, and the zealots would all be like wtf!

Now when things run away, you use antigravity and SC2's superior spell casting system, to abuse the raiders phoenix's ensnare antigravity ability so if your opponent runs, they lose half their units. Archons do higher damage vs bio, and zerg don't have emp, so I think the strategy should work better vs zerg. They also shoot psi storms now afaik, so take advantage of it and neglect ht altogether.

Thanks for this thread!
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
threehundred
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada911 Posts
March 09 2010 10:41 GMT
#65
i just went straight to platinum in 2v2 because of my 9-1 record in placements playing as LOLZERG.

the build and plan was simple

10 overlord
13 pool
12 drone
13 extractor
3 on gas till 100
build drones till 16/18
build queen
build overlord 18/18
take drones off gas at 100
build 2nd hatch beside main
research speed

pump lings and overlords cut drones completely

when you have about 20 lings with speed just go all-in and destroy their nexus/commandcenter/hatchery and rally your hatcheries with lings pumping

strategy: hit and run, never engage units unless you know you'll win, just kill the main resource gathering things and you'll run over them in the next few minutes

bottomline is, the placement matches are pretty noob anyway, so if you want that lol-platinum division rank under your 2v2, im pretty sure zerg has it the easiest.
KimTaeyeon MEDIC MU fighting! ^^;;
brocoli
Profile Joined February 2010
Brazil264 Posts
March 10 2010 01:41 GMT
#66
PvP Sanctuary


Get assimilators fast. They are a part of the wall, and they cost only 75 minerals. Besides, you will need some gas.
Do some micro vs the first zealots, but make sure you come back to block the holes behind mineral lines, etc.
use every single building to protect your probes. You are teching to cannons ASAP.
mind you'll probably lose a pylon. replace it preemptively.
Start building a few sentries & stalkers from the inside. Then place cannons.

Finally, if this madness works, tech to something. Phoenixes are a good opener vs robo.
quirk
Profile Joined March 2010
Estonia12 Posts
March 10 2010 22:08 GMT
#67
Fast hydra/lair rush/build
This is a build that I am experimenting with. Because of time constraints I would like some feedback/testing from better players(I am in the bronze league). I haven't tested it enough so the timings might not be correct.

The build(basic zerg opening):
9 Overlord
10-13 Drones
13 Extractor
12 Pool
100% Extractor send drones
100% Pool build Lair - My idea/hope would be that when the pool finishes you have 100 gas.
Maybe it isn't that necessary to get exact amount/timing.
After starting lair - make zerglings/drones as necessary, you could also expand at this time(I expanded).
100% Lair build Hydra den and a queen
Mass hydras after....(I know that this isn't really a good goal, but this is as far as I had thought)

I know the build isn't that detailed, but would like some feedback/replays from better players. The most obvious problem would be early rushes, because so far when I tried this build I had very few defenses (Mostly powered drones).

Thank you for your time/feedback

ArC_man
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States2798 Posts
March 11 2010 16:07 GMT
#68
Multitask intensive harass build TvZ:

I wanted to do this for a while but I'm on a business trip and I can't play any games for 2-3 weeks so all I can do is theorycraft =(.

Basically it's just an add-on to the hellion opener except for faster hellions and a transition into reapers. Theory behind it is since zergs are kinda forced to block the hellion opening with roaches on the ramp, you might be able to exploit their mineral line by immediately teching to reapers. So essentially you will get reaper harass at their mineral line and hellion harass at their ramp.

The build would be
10 rax
11 depot
11 gas
11 orbital
2 marines (try to use them to deny scouting drones and lings as much as possible)
1st 100 gas goes to factory (normally you can squeeze a 3rd rine in the 10depot/12rax build but you're really short on minerals with this build so you barely get enough minerals for a factory at 100 gas)
2nd 50 gas goes to reactor on rax
immediately lift rax and build a tech lab after reactor is complete
keep pumping hellions and maybe build 4ish reapers (not too sure about the number).

With the 10/11/11/11 build, you get 2 hellions 30+ seconds faster than the standard 10depot/12rax build, this alone will probably throw off a lot of zerg's timings. I wanted to see if reapers could create any more havoc or if they arrive simply too late to do anything if zerg already has too many units. It would require a lot of multitasking (reapers, then hellions, as well as macroing).

An alternative to harassing the mineral line with reapers is to target the natural hatchery (but be within range to just jump into their main if the roaches come down). This forces the zerg to make a decision of either coming down to get ur reapers (and potentially allowing hellions up his ramp and reapers up his ramp also) or just letting his hat die. If he charges down with a few roaches and still has some blocking his ramp, you could run your hellions away and jump your reapers into his main to harass his mineral line. You could even bring your first 2 marines to help kill the hatchery.

Of course this won't outright kill a zerg, but hopefully you can cripple him enough as well as expand yourself and then just roll him afterwards with m/m (of course if he's going 1 base it won't be as effective, I'd still like to see how well it works against 1 base though). Almost like Bisu's corsair/dt multitask harass =P.
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 11 2010 16:50 GMT
#69
On March 12 2010 01:07 ArC_man wrote:
Multitask intensive harass build TvZ:

I wanted to do this for a while but I'm on a business trip and I can't play any games for 2-3 weeks so all I can do is theorycraft =(.

Basically it's just an add-on to the hellion opener except for faster hellions and a transition into reapers. Theory behind it is since zergs are kinda forced to block the hellion opening with roaches on the ramp, you might be able to exploit their mineral line by immediately teching to reapers. So essentially you will get reaper harass at their mineral line and hellion harass at their ramp.

The build would be
10 rax
11 depot
11 gas
11 orbital
2 marines (try to use them to deny scouting drones and lings as much as possible)
1st 100 gas goes to factory (normally you can squeeze a 3rd rine in the 10depot/12rax build but you're really short on minerals with this build so you barely get enough minerals for a factory at 100 gas)
2nd 50 gas goes to reactor on rax
immediately lift rax and build a tech lab after reactor is complete
keep pumping hellions and maybe build 4ish reapers (not too sure about the number).

With the 10/11/11/11 build, you get 2 hellions 30+ seconds faster than the standard 10depot/12rax build, this alone will probably throw off a lot of zerg's timings. I wanted to see if reapers could create any more havoc or if they arrive simply too late to do anything if zerg already has too many units. It would require a lot of multitasking (reapers, then hellions, as well as macroing).

An alternative to harassing the mineral line with reapers is to target the natural hatchery (but be within range to just jump into their main if the roaches come down). This forces the zerg to make a decision of either coming down to get ur reapers (and potentially allowing hellions up his ramp and reapers up his ramp also) or just letting his hat die. If he charges down with a few roaches and still has some blocking his ramp, you could run your hellions away and jump your reapers into his main to harass his mineral line. You could even bring your first 2 marines to help kill the hatchery.

Of course this won't outright kill a zerg, but hopefully you can cripple him enough as well as expand yourself and then just roll him afterwards with m/m (of course if he's going 1 base it won't be as effective, I'd still like to see how well it works against 1 base though). Almost like Bisu's corsair/dt multitask harass =P.


What does this build have to do with mutalisks? You say nothing about scouting. And if he's 1 base roaching you're pretty much screwed.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-11 18:09:41
March 11 2010 17:43 GMT
#70
I am not in Beta and have no key so I can't write you up a specific build order, but I would be enormously appreciative if you could test (or someone could theory-craft-shoot-down) a TvP Metal + Marauder/Ghost (w. Raven in lategame, gas permitting) build that would aim to approach the matchup similarly to standard SC:BW matches. The tanks, protected by salvageably, leapfrogging bunkers of marauders (with slowing attack) with ghosts on the front lines ready with EMP would give you map control, allowing yourself to slowly push the Protoss while simultaneously enabling you to take an extra expansion or two as seen fit by the player.

Premise
This build capitalizes on three things:

+ Tanks in SC2 have both higher DPS and greater range than their SC:BW counterparts (See this thread)

+ Ghosts with EMP absolutely annihilate Protoss forces, and, as icing on the cake, neutralize Immortal's special ability.

+ Bunker's are rapidly salvageable (I think for 100% return)

Strategy
The idea behind the build would be similar to Vulture + Mines + Tank from SC:BW. The major problems with this being effective in SC2 are generally thought to be lack of spider mines/vultures to deal with Zealots (particularly now sporting charge) and Immortals. To deal with this, I would love to see a Terran try to do the good old fashioned Tank line leapfrogging (preferably +1/ ) supported by a few scv's constructing bunkers (say 2-4 at any one given point in time, blocking off as much of the frontal approach to your tanks as possible). These would house marauders who would be aimed at keeping zealots/stalkers off of your tanks (their slowing attack would also probably give your tanks time to get an extra shot off. Either ravens or a flying barracks or something would be necessary to give you enough vision (particularly up cliffs) to prevent stalkers blink-bombing your tank line from out of sight/up cliffs. While setting up this push this would give the terran player time to expand; the only thing the T would have to be exceptionally careful of would be backstabs and protoss switching to air while his troops are committed to the tank line (ie from Warp Prisms or Colossi). However, with BW level scouting and perhaps even forgoing one MULE for a prescient scan mid-to-late game scan (which so far has been rarely seen in SC2), preventative measures could be taken in time to render any of these fairly ineffectual (a handful of vikings for example to deal with voidrays). Lategame, Ravens would probably be quite useful for autoturrent support/worker harassment and point-defense-drone (effectively D-Matrix) support for either your ground or viking force.

Conclusions
The main purpose of this build is to take away the Protoss' options both in terms of unit selection and map movement. This would be a micro/macro intensive build and would require constant scouting throughout to make sure the Protoss isn't committing to air (which is a winnable battle for the Terran if seen coming in advance, and would represent an enormous commitment for the Protoss) or trying to warp in DT into the opponents base. In fact a handful of 'patrol vikings' would probably be handy just to discourage warp prism/colossi cliff-walking shenanigans. In the end however, the Protoss is forced to try to break your marauder/tank/ghost line, which, with proper micro should hold against a food-equivalent Protoss ground force.

Feedback/thoughts?

Also, thanks again liquipedia guys for doing this!
ArC_man
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States2798 Posts
March 11 2010 21:43 GMT
#71
On March 12 2010 01:50 Mente wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2010 01:07 ArC_man wrote:
Multitask intensive harass build TvZ:

I wanted to do this for a while but I'm on a business trip and I can't play any games for 2-3 weeks so all I can do is theorycraft =(.

Basically it's just an add-on to the hellion opener except for faster hellions and a transition into reapers. Theory behind it is since zergs are kinda forced to block the hellion opening with roaches on the ramp, you might be able to exploit their mineral line by immediately teching to reapers. So essentially you will get reaper harass at their mineral line and hellion harass at their ramp.

The build would be
10 rax
11 depot
11 gas
11 orbital
2 marines (try to use them to deny scouting drones and lings as much as possible)
1st 100 gas goes to factory (normally you can squeeze a 3rd rine in the 10depot/12rax build but you're really short on minerals with this build so you barely get enough minerals for a factory at 100 gas)
2nd 50 gas goes to reactor on rax
immediately lift rax and build a tech lab after reactor is complete
keep pumping hellions and maybe build 4ish reapers (not too sure about the number).

With the 10/11/11/11 build, you get 2 hellions 30+ seconds faster than the standard 10depot/12rax build, this alone will probably throw off a lot of zerg's timings. I wanted to see if reapers could create any more havoc or if they arrive simply too late to do anything if zerg already has too many units. It would require a lot of multitasking (reapers, then hellions, as well as macroing).

An alternative to harassing the mineral line with reapers is to target the natural hatchery (but be within range to just jump into their main if the roaches come down). This forces the zerg to make a decision of either coming down to get ur reapers (and potentially allowing hellions up his ramp and reapers up his ramp also) or just letting his hat die. If he charges down with a few roaches and still has some blocking his ramp, you could run your hellions away and jump your reapers into his main to harass his mineral line. You could even bring your first 2 marines to help kill the hatchery.

Of course this won't outright kill a zerg, but hopefully you can cripple him enough as well as expand yourself and then just roll him afterwards with m/m (of course if he's going 1 base it won't be as effective, I'd still like to see how well it works against 1 base though). Almost like Bisu's corsair/dt multitask harass =P.


What does this build have to do with mutalisks? You say nothing about scouting. And if he's 1 base roaching you're pretty much screwed.

"Multitask" as in doing multiple things at once not mutalisk. Ah I did forget about when to send scout SCV, should be after the depot but timings could be changed of course. 10/11/11/11 isn't such an uncommon build, you don't have to drastically change your scouting pattern because there's not much zerg can do early game that can really throw you off (and it's not like they can block their ramp off to prevent scout).

And I already mentioned something about 1 base builds. Obviously the opening won't be as effective but I still like to see just how effective it could be against 1 base builds. Zerg would get roaches before hellions at his base, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's an auto-loss. He can't attack your base for fear off hellion backstab (and meanwhile you could just bunker up and he would be wasting his army) so you can comfortably expand and most likely be even with his expansion (which is a good thing).

In SC1, doing a super fast vulture opening was a gimmicky all-in type of build where either you did tremendous damage to the zerg's econ or he scouted and was able to defend properly and you fell way behind in econ. In SC2 however, terran has the MULE to boost econ, terran also have much better ways of attacking enemy peon lines (hellions are better than vultures at attacking peons and reapers can just ignore basically any form of terrain barrier), and zerg's early game defense is much weaker (lings are weaker, spine crawlers suck, hellions can tank queens while chasing peons, and the queen has difficulty catching reapers). These reasons lead me to believe that opening with a super harass intensive opening can become one of the standard builds (I mean the hellion opening has already become almost standard).

I think you came into this thread looking to bash on people's new builds so you briefly skimmed my post, misread some parts, and started attacking what you misread. Of course I'm not exactly sure what's going to happen in every scenario, I already mentioned that this is just theorycraft (unless you didn't read that part either). This thread was created so that new ideas could be put forth to test and become knowledge for the whole community, not shot down without a thought (unless it's something obviously atrocious).
RetroDeatRow
Profile Joined March 2010
United States11 Posts
March 14 2010 07:49 GMT
#72
I have played rather little of SC2, but since Siege expand is being promoted as standard TVT I thought I might offer what else might be standard. It is all in the numbers, really...

FD vs Z
I guess people have recognized the immense power of Mech vs Zerg Tier 1. I played fairly standard (strong)FD against Zerg, with flamethrower upgrades instead of mines, ala SCBW. I went 2 refineries quickly, like 11 and 12; and had 4 SCVS alltogether mining gas. This should probably be adjusted variously to find the perfect fit, but the idea is to:

SD
Rax
Refinery x2
Factory(@100 gas, duh!)
Techlab @ Rax and transfer Completed Factory to it
Reactor @ Rax pump rines
2 tanks & flamethrower upgrade (finish at same time)
Transfer Factory to Reactor and double pump some Tykes
Push and expand

The rest is in the Micro: rines and tanks range Roaches (target fire), lings and hydras get burnt, Banelings? Well, I haven't fought them, but tanks can snipe 'em. Basically, some one needs to do the numbers and make this as quick as possible. It can probably be based off of a 9Rax, too, to stop them pesky quick expos.

Make sure to build an armory asap after the expansion. Get 2 Thors, more tanks, a few more rines and hellions, and push again. And prob an engineering bay. As always, scouting is essential.

____________________________

TvP

Now, I am really uneasy about this, but if 1 rine Marauders is the new FD against toss, the proper followup should be a raven or two and Vikings. Terran air is mobile, and Toss is left with a relatively slow ground force. How the tables have turned!

Add some dropships and appropriate unit combos, and DONT FORGET THAT RAVEN SHIEDL! Stalkers are nullified by the new Raven spell; Zeals are nullified by Hellions. Collossus are nullified by Vyks. Hellions might be unessential, as MnM in you dropships with the Raven Sheild and Vyks should be enough to go expo sniping.

I am unsure about the timing against Collossus, but it would be preferable to get a Raven before Vykings so as to kill observers in your base. And build energy for its shield spell. Raids on the Protoss base should be an option for the T player at multiple points in time. Many of Toss's units become obsolete because of this strategy. Templar could be quite powerful on stacked marines or Vyks, but I guess T as more options as well.

TvP is a whole new game in SC2, but it looks as if TvZ is not unlike TvP of SC1. Sure, Z has more units than P did in SC1, but Siege Tanks do a bigger splash and kill Z units uber quick.

Last note: Helleions can be quite viable in TvT. Use em like Lurkers against rines: run up real close to the marines and then let the flames fly. And the ashes fall. (Ha there is micro!)
Why Make Sense When You Can Make Dollars?
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
March 14 2010 20:37 GMT
#73
Hunter seeker and emp vs toss... Want to see if this is imba...
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
TrayD
Profile Joined November 2009
Finland23 Posts
March 14 2010 21:40 GMT
#74
Early game bust in Zerg vs Terran

-10 gas (1drone on gas)
-10 over
-14 pool(2 drones on gas)
-16 over(3 drones on gas) | Pool is done about when overlord is ready |
-16 queen
-16 Zergling speed
-Keep making zerglings

You gotta Deny scouting with your first zerglings, then you make baneling nest, and send one zergling to his ramp to check what units he has ->
1.If he has alot of marines, make about 10 banelings at his natural and bust in
2.Alot marauders, just make 6 banelings, enough to destroy supply depot, and mass zerling own him.
3.Hellions, 6-8 banelings and bust in, and surround the hellions asap

You should attack at 34/34 supply, push happens about below 7min marker. After that you make more lings, if its not working just expand.

While you bust in after destroyin the depot wall, you can sneak few zerglings in to the side and morph them to banelings and destroy scv's completly, most of the cases he uses them to fight anyways.
Flicky
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
England2662 Posts
March 15 2010 13:55 GMT
#75
On March 15 2010 06:40 TrayD wrote:
Early game bust in Zerg vs Terran

-10 gas (1drone on gas)
-10 over
-14 pool(2 drones on gas)
-16 over(3 drones on gas) | Pool is done about when overlord is ready |
-16 queen
-16 Zergling speed
-Keep making zerglings

You gotta Deny scouting with your first zerglings, then you make baneling nest, and send one zergling to his ramp to check what units he has ->
1.If he has alot of marines, make about 10 banelings at his natural and bust in
2.Alot marauders, just make 6 banelings, enough to destroy supply depot, and mass zerling own him.
3.Hellions, 6-8 banelings and bust in, and surround the hellions asap

You should attack at 34/34 supply, push happens about below 7min marker. After that you make more lings, if its not working just expand.

While you bust in after destroyin the depot wall, you can sneak few zerglings in to the side and morph them to banelings and destroy scv's completly, most of the cases he uses them to fight anyways.


My friend was spamming these openings at me and they're pretty easy to defend if you just build one bunker and micro any hellions.
Liquipedia"I was seriously looking for a black guy" - MrHoon
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 15 2010 21:07 GMT
#76
On March 12 2010 06:43 ArC_man wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2010 01:50 Mente wrote:
On March 12 2010 01:07 ArC_man wrote:
Multitask intensive harass build TvZ:

I wanted to do this for a while but I'm on a business trip and I can't play any games for 2-3 weeks so all I can do is theorycraft =(.

Basically it's just an add-on to the hellion opener except for faster hellions and a transition into reapers. Theory behind it is since zergs are kinda forced to block the hellion opening with roaches on the ramp, you might be able to exploit their mineral line by immediately teching to reapers. So essentially you will get reaper harass at their mineral line and hellion harass at their ramp.

The build would be
10 rax
11 depot
11 gas
11 orbital
2 marines (try to use them to deny scouting drones and lings as much as possible)
1st 100 gas goes to factory (normally you can squeeze a 3rd rine in the 10depot/12rax build but you're really short on minerals with this build so you barely get enough minerals for a factory at 100 gas)
2nd 50 gas goes to reactor on rax
immediately lift rax and build a tech lab after reactor is complete
keep pumping hellions and maybe build 4ish reapers (not too sure about the number).

With the 10/11/11/11 build, you get 2 hellions 30+ seconds faster than the standard 10depot/12rax build, this alone will probably throw off a lot of zerg's timings. I wanted to see if reapers could create any more havoc or if they arrive simply too late to do anything if zerg already has too many units. It would require a lot of multitasking (reapers, then hellions, as well as macroing).

An alternative to harassing the mineral line with reapers is to target the natural hatchery (but be within range to just jump into their main if the roaches come down). This forces the zerg to make a decision of either coming down to get ur reapers (and potentially allowing hellions up his ramp and reapers up his ramp also) or just letting his hat die. If he charges down with a few roaches and still has some blocking his ramp, you could run your hellions away and jump your reapers into his main to harass his mineral line. You could even bring your first 2 marines to help kill the hatchery.

Of course this won't outright kill a zerg, but hopefully you can cripple him enough as well as expand yourself and then just roll him afterwards with m/m (of course if he's going 1 base it won't be as effective, I'd still like to see how well it works against 1 base though). Almost like Bisu's corsair/dt multitask harass =P.


What does this build have to do with mutalisks? You say nothing about scouting. And if he's 1 base roaching you're pretty much screwed.

"Multitask" as in doing multiple things at once not mutalisk. Ah I did forget about when to send scout SCV, should be after the depot but timings could be changed of course. 10/11/11/11 isn't such an uncommon build, you don't have to drastically change your scouting pattern because there's not much zerg can do early game that can really throw you off (and it's not like they can block their ramp off to prevent scout).

And I already mentioned something about 1 base builds. Obviously the opening won't be as effective but I still like to see just how effective it could be against 1 base builds. Zerg would get roaches before hellions at his base, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's an auto-loss. He can't attack your base for fear off hellion backstab (and meanwhile you could just bunker up and he would be wasting his army) so you can comfortably expand and most likely be even with his expansion (which is a good thing).

In SC1, doing a super fast vulture opening was a gimmicky all-in type of build where either you did tremendous damage to the zerg's econ or he scouted and was able to defend properly and you fell way behind in econ. In SC2 however, terran has the MULE to boost econ, terran also have much better ways of attacking enemy peon lines (hellions are better than vultures at attacking peons and reapers can just ignore basically any form of terrain barrier), and zerg's early game defense is much weaker (lings are weaker, spine crawlers suck, hellions can tank queens while chasing peons, and the queen has difficulty catching reapers). These reasons lead me to believe that opening with a super harass intensive opening can become one of the standard builds (I mean the hellion opening has already become almost standard).

I think you came into this thread looking to bash on people's new builds so you briefly skimmed my post, misread some parts, and started attacking what you misread. Of course I'm not exactly sure what's going to happen in every scenario, I already mentioned that this is just theorycraft (unless you didn't read that part either). This thread was created so that new ideas could be put forth to test and become knowledge for the whole community, not shot down without a thought (unless it's something obviously atrocious).


My bad with the original reading comprehension but that didn't detract from the main points that I mentioned.

Theorycrafting isn't a bad thing. But this thread was about builds people have designed and seemed to work and wanted to be tried out in more than one instance.

Speedlings early on really shut down the hellion harrass even if he fast expands. So do spine crawlers. Same thing applies to reapers. And wasting all that time/gas on reapers is completely counter productive early on.

In regards to your sc 1 comment opening mech in tvz didn't put you too far behind economically as you could still almost safely expand after opening with vults (i.e., most of the time the zerg was behind economically as most of them open 2 hatch muta against terran). Goliaths plus the time that the vultures bought was enough to throw down turrets and keep you safe.

And I didn't come in this thread to base people's builds. I came in to post some of my own and try out what people thought. I'm allowed to give my 2 cents as this is an open forum and help steer people in the right direction.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
Topazas
Profile Joined March 2010
Lithuania86 Posts
March 18 2010 15:30 GMT
#77
On February 25 2010 14:01 semantics wrote:
I wish they could burrow though cliffs that would be hilarious make tunnels!


That would be stupid.
Volshok
Profile Joined August 2008
United States349 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 15:51:39
March 18 2010 15:50 GMT
#78
On March 15 2010 05:37 obesechicken13 wrote:
Hunter seeker and emp vs toss... Want to see if this is imba...


Not to discredit the idea; Ghost 200, Raven 200, Fusion Reactor 150, Seeker Missile Research 150.

That's 700 gas, just to get setup for the initial use. I could see it be viable if you were somehow made of gas, but the majority of the time, the game is already over by the time you reach such a level. SM is effective on it's own because it ignores mitigation, so Guardian Shield / Hardened Shield does nothing against it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123657
MeditationError
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia60 Posts
March 19 2010 00:05 GMT
#79
I did a search for "Point defense drone" and got not one hit.

It looks to me like zerg has nothing that can hit a point defence drone (sc2armoury and liquipedia agree that nothing that can hit air is immune to the drone), so I'd like to see point defense abused against zerg:

defense drone + banshee queen/hatchery hunting.
ravens + tanks & marines as a hydralisk counter.
ravens + vikings: fly in, kill overlords, fly out.

Just general terran air with defense drones against zerg.
Experience is an excellent teacher, but her fees are very high.
SarcasticOne
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia213 Posts
March 19 2010 05:31 GMT
#80
On March 07 2010 09:00 threehundred wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114689

+ Show Spoiler +

THE T v TPZ STANDARD BUILD ORDER VS EVERYTHING IS AS FOLLOWS <3

Now I'm no Platinum Player, nor DO i actually have a BETA KEY (I play on my friends account that is in GOLD LEAGUE), I play about 8-20 games every few days and I believe I have about a 75% win ratio against most players at this 'matchmaking' level.

10 supply SCV finishes and scouts ASAP
12 barracks SCV finishes and builds supply wall (2nd depot)
14 refinery 2 SCVs on gas (don't take any off you need it for next few steps)
15-16 orbital command you should have exactly around 150 minerals and SCV just finishing
2nd supply around this time that SCV that built the barracks

1 marine usually against scouting worker
-----
MULE ASAP AND AS MUCH AS YOU CAN
18-20 command center all your economy at this point is waiting for 400 minerals to build a command center
-----
2ND BARRACKS
3RD BARRACKS

these 3 barracks should complete JUST in-time against some early game all-ins, or at least those that i've seen so far
-----
ENGINEERING BAY
1. bio is STRONG from start to finish against all races
2. early upgrades means TIMING PUSHES +1/+1
3. turret(s) deters dark templar rushes
4. turret(s) deters cloaked banshees when your orbital command energy is down from mules
5. PLANETARY FORTRESS EXPO strategy to follow
-----
2ND refinery
-----
(on your barracks obviously, you should have enough gas by now from harvesting earlier)
TECHLAB
REACTOR
REACTOR

-----
+1 ATTACK TO INFANTRY WEAPONS
-----
MACRO PRODUCE 4 MARINES AND 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOU CAN MOVE OUT
-----
SECURING YOUR EXPO AS YOU MOVE OUT:
Obviously your experience comes into play here as to how many units you need to defend this
critical movement.

Basic guidelines as follows:


If you scouted more tier one production facilities then he'll have more combat units PROBABLY as you move out. the number and timing of his units coming in obviously depends on his race, unit choices and building locations (proxy buildings too)

1. A spare SCV can run to his base if you want to be extra safe, or you can scan
2. land command center at natural and build a PLANETARY FORTRESS
3. I transfer about 6-8 SCV, someone will probably do the math on it one day
4. Build 1 turret at least and 1-2 bunkers
5. MAP CONSIDERATIONS
- double entrances should be scouted / visioned accordingly
- stronger choke points need lesser bunkers / probably no need for a planetary fortress if you want to be macro greedy with mules or ready with scans

Thoughts on planetary fortress:


It's just too good against most TIER 1 unit rushes during this timing. You can repair and micro your SCV and they'll give up on your expo and just try breaking your ramp which can be unit blocked by your ground army/walls anyway. Although it is NOT NECESSARY to have a planetary fortress if you scout a lesser early aggressive build anyway, most of the time just building it deters many early attacks anyway (especially stubborn players that choose to get slaughtered causing them to lose the game losing so many units)

-----
CONTINUE PRODUCING SCVS / MACRO WAVES OF UNITS 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOUR CHOKE POINT 'FEELS SECURE'
-----
+1 ARMOR TO INFANTRY
RESEARCH STIMPACK
-----
3RD refinery
-----
FACTORY
FACTORY REACTOR
STARPORT
STARPORT ON FACTORY REACTOR

------
MACRO WAVES OF 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER AND 2 MEDIVACS

I usually push out after 4 medivacs, by that time +1/+1 and STIM should be done WHEN YOU GET THE ENEMY'S BASE/EXPO with MARINE shields to follow.

It's roughly 9-10minutes into the game when I'm at their front door or getting through the backdoor.
------

From here either the game ends with me winning a timing push or winning map control. This same build has worked against all races so far, except some good roach all-in builds that get in through the backdoor that I've been working to be more weary of. The critical point of any FE build anyway is your lack of units to counter quick backdooring during your expo setup and I advise you change your builds on these maps. Like lol blistering sands with the stupid rock formation that is 10 units wide that allows 10 roaches in within the first 5+ minutes.

------

Some race dependent deviations:

4TH BARRACKS WITH REACTOR or TECHLAB
- TvT i just mass more marines
- TvP techlab to get GHOSTS if he gets a quick colussus
- TvZ more marauders if he goes with banelings
FACTORY WITH REACTOR
- TvZ hellions work well to kite banelings and can be macro'ed just as well with 4 marines, 1 marauder and 2 medivacs, you can also macro this during your first push off of your 2 bases
STARPORT WITH TECHLAB
- TvZ mid-late game i think it's the must have AoE if he's better at macro, i've failed though remember to use Ravens effectively


is exactly the

commandcenter -> planetary fortress build i use TvALL

i opt for 2 barracks built right after the command center to keep up in unit macro, and you really won't be far behind in unit production anyway given most map timings


i've found this to be very effective also =)

im hardly a SC pro, but i have just won 6/6 using this (5 "practice matches" and 1 placement match)
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
March 19 2010 20:26 GMT
#81
Robotics Build
I don't have beta so I can't test this or provide a solid build order, but I want to see how robotics units do. In Brood War, barracks units got skipped in favour of factory units in TvT and TvP. What about skipping gateway units for robotics units as Protoss?

I'm pretty sure this'll work best against Terran since they don't have a solid all round air unit, though vikings might be a pain.

Basically, get up a quick expansion along with a robotics facility. Pump out immortals and colossi as your main army instead of gateway units. Against air, use two or three warpgates/gateways to pump either sentries or stalkers. Either that or use pheonix/voidrays.

Not really detailed but that's I'll I can imagine since i don't have a key =(.
HTX
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany265 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-19 20:54:55
March 19 2010 20:50 GMT
#82
Ok i have some success with the following build. iam not platinum right now, so it would be fine if someone can test it out. Think the standart in TvZ will be Hellion MMM and Raven. Except the Zerg goes Muta then the build has to be changed.

Terran (MMM, Hellion, Raven) vs Zerg ( Roach, Baneling, Hydra, Ling) Midgame Fight

Basic idea: early reaper, expand, hellion+upgrade, defending until raven -> push while adding more baracks and researching seeker missile.

BO :
10 Dep
11Rax ( immediately Lab) -> 1x Reaper for harass and scout
11 Gas
14 Depot
15 Orbital Command
17 Expo ( after inital reaper just marauder for defense and researching STIM then SHIELD when money is available)
18 2. Gas
25 Factory + Lab ( Hellion upgrade) , pump 2-3 Hellion until upgrade is done
30 2 Rax for Marines
35 Starport ( 2-3 Medivac) not sure about the timing until fusion core is done
after Starport is done immediately Fusion core for HSM upgrade
Switch Starport to Factory Lab after upgrade and pump raven
Add Reactor to Factory and pump double Hellion
around 40 3. Gas
... Push with raven, hellion, marauder, marines ( 2 stim and shield done)

GG

works vs gold, lets see what you guys think of it when someone more capeable is playing

Edit: It works of course just vs expanding Zerg, every 1 Base roach rush ends my strategy pretty early. But zergs are greedy!
The internet: a horrible collective liar
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-20 02:16:11
March 20 2010 01:37 GMT
#83
Hello everyone,

I don't know if nayone sitll remebers me but I'm the guy that started that whole "Strong BO's" for individual maps movemnt for a while on Liquipedia I. Well now I have one for you guys I have had very good success with.

PvZ Forge First FE
(this is assuming you see something like a 12 hatch/14 pool/ no immediate rush), and of course constant probe production aside form a supply block you will hit for a min at 18 supply, and at 15 supply.

9: Pylon at choke
9: Scout
11: Forge
14: Cannon
15: Cut Probes
15: Gateway
15: Cannon
15: Resume Probes
16: Gas
17: Cyber Core
18: Nexus
18: Pylon
18: Warp Gate Research
19: Sentry (Chrono)
21: Gas
22: Cannon
22: Stargate
25: Stalker (Chrono)
25: Gas
Next: Twlight Council than Pheonix against mass roaches otherwise Pheonix

Follow up is chrono-boosted Phoenix harass, or Pheonix/DT harass if the Zerg turtles too long.

The build obviously does not work on maps without natural expansions or a semi-wallable choke.

Also the opening also depends on what you scout (or sometimes what you don't scout). Of you fail to scout the zerg right away or see a ling rush coming you would want to change the build to have the second cannon go before the gateway.

Here's my example of the wall that is optimal for this build on LT IMO. I put in in another thread but would love to have you guys try it out!

+ Show Spoiler +


NOTE: All walls use the same order of cannons:
1: Nearest the plylon on the near ground

2: The other low ground spot

3: The high ground nearest the choke (assuming the opponent is not rying a zergling runby in which case swap 3 and 4)

4: On the high ground near the ramp

North:
This might not be right, i think i messed up the forge position, will update esoon
[image loading]


South
[image loading]


East:
[image loading]


West:
[image loading]



Why it's worked so far: I guess I better explain why this actually works lol.

If the Zerg goes 6 pool or something you will have very early cannons but will not have the gateway to block. It's rough but you can possibly survive.

If the Zerg does a semi-early pool like 9-10 and tries a Zergling run by, it often does next to nothing because they are only able to get 1-2 lings in ur main for scout and annoyance by the time the cannons do their work.

If the Zerg does a late pool like 14-15 your gravy as you will get the expansion off easily, and could even delay the core until after the Nexus.

If the Zerg FE's, again you are gravy, as you will on par economy wise with him. If the Zerg FE's you can probably expand off of one cannon, forge, and a gateway.

If the Zerg does a one base roach bust, it's very hard to defend. One base roach play is probably the thing I have had most difficulty with. It involves using force field very effectively, and getting good use out of your first Pheonix to make the Zerg push before they would have liked to.

If the Zerg does a one base Roach/Hydra, you will have Pheonix's to keep the Hydra's pinned in the base. If they leave, his overlords die. I add a second stargate early against this, as they will not have enough Hydra's to defend against 2-4 Pheonix's at that point

If they go mass Hydra harass like crazy with Pheonix's, but only off one stargate. It needs to be chrono boosted like crazy but gateways + robo tech is needed. Using force field to split control groups of hydras is very effective

Let me know if it works for you too!
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-20 02:25:21
March 20 2010 02:25 GMT
#84
that clearly favors certian maps esp maps like lt with a nice cliff and tiny choke, I've seen terran builds similar except using bunkers and supply depots
threehundred
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada911 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-20 23:14:51
March 20 2010 23:10 GMT
#85
On March 19 2010 14:31 SarcasticOne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2010 09:00 threehundred wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114689

+ Show Spoiler +

THE T v TPZ STANDARD BUILD ORDER VS EVERYTHING IS AS FOLLOWS <3

Now I'm no Platinum Player, nor DO i actually have a BETA KEY (I play on my friends account that is in GOLD LEAGUE), I play about 8-20 games every few days and I believe I have about a 75% win ratio against most players at this 'matchmaking' level.

10 supply SCV finishes and scouts ASAP
12 barracks SCV finishes and builds supply wall (2nd depot)
14 refinery 2 SCVs on gas (don't take any off you need it for next few steps)
15-16 orbital command you should have exactly around 150 minerals and SCV just finishing
2nd supply around this time that SCV that built the barracks

1 marine usually against scouting worker
-----
MULE ASAP AND AS MUCH AS YOU CAN
18-20 command center all your economy at this point is waiting for 400 minerals to build a command center
-----
2ND BARRACKS
3RD BARRACKS

these 3 barracks should complete JUST in-time against some early game all-ins, or at least those that i've seen so far
-----
ENGINEERING BAY
1. bio is STRONG from start to finish against all races
2. early upgrades means TIMING PUSHES +1/+1
3. turret(s) deters dark templar rushes
4. turret(s) deters cloaked banshees when your orbital command energy is down from mules
5. PLANETARY FORTRESS EXPO strategy to follow
-----
2ND refinery
-----
(on your barracks obviously, you should have enough gas by now from harvesting earlier)
TECHLAB
REACTOR
REACTOR

-----
+1 ATTACK TO INFANTRY WEAPONS
-----
MACRO PRODUCE 4 MARINES AND 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOU CAN MOVE OUT
-----
SECURING YOUR EXPO AS YOU MOVE OUT:
Obviously your experience comes into play here as to how many units you need to defend this
critical movement.

Basic guidelines as follows:


If you scouted more tier one production facilities then he'll have more combat units PROBABLY as you move out. the number and timing of his units coming in obviously depends on his race, unit choices and building locations (proxy buildings too)

1. A spare SCV can run to his base if you want to be extra safe, or you can scan
2. land command center at natural and build a PLANETARY FORTRESS
3. I transfer about 6-8 SCV, someone will probably do the math on it one day
4. Build 1 turret at least and 1-2 bunkers
5. MAP CONSIDERATIONS
- double entrances should be scouted / visioned accordingly
- stronger choke points need lesser bunkers / probably no need for a planetary fortress if you want to be macro greedy with mules or ready with scans

Thoughts on planetary fortress:


It's just too good against most TIER 1 unit rushes during this timing. You can repair and micro your SCV and they'll give up on your expo and just try breaking your ramp which can be unit blocked by your ground army/walls anyway. Although it is NOT NECESSARY to have a planetary fortress if you scout a lesser early aggressive build anyway, most of the time just building it deters many early attacks anyway (especially stubborn players that choose to get slaughtered causing them to lose the game losing so many units)

-----
CONTINUE PRODUCING SCVS / MACRO WAVES OF UNITS 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOUR CHOKE POINT 'FEELS SECURE'
-----
+1 ARMOR TO INFANTRY
RESEARCH STIMPACK
-----
3RD refinery
-----
FACTORY
FACTORY REACTOR
STARPORT
STARPORT ON FACTORY REACTOR

------
MACRO WAVES OF 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER AND 2 MEDIVACS

I usually push out after 4 medivacs, by that time +1/+1 and STIM should be done WHEN YOU GET THE ENEMY'S BASE/EXPO with MARINE shields to follow.

It's roughly 9-10minutes into the game when I'm at their front door or getting through the backdoor.
------

From here either the game ends with me winning a timing push or winning map control. This same build has worked against all races so far, except some good roach all-in builds that get in through the backdoor that I've been working to be more weary of. The critical point of any FE build anyway is your lack of units to counter quick backdooring during your expo setup and I advise you change your builds on these maps. Like lol blistering sands with the stupid rock formation that is 10 units wide that allows 10 roaches in within the first 5+ minutes.

------

Some race dependent deviations:

4TH BARRACKS WITH REACTOR or TECHLAB
- TvT i just mass more marines
- TvP techlab to get GHOSTS if he gets a quick colussus
- TvZ more marauders if he goes with banelings
FACTORY WITH REACTOR
- TvZ hellions work well to kite banelings and can be macro'ed just as well with 4 marines, 1 marauder and 2 medivacs, you can also macro this during your first push off of your 2 bases
STARPORT WITH TECHLAB
- TvZ mid-late game i think it's the must have AoE if he's better at macro, i've failed though remember to use Ravens effectively


is exactly the

commandcenter -> planetary fortress build i use TvALL

i opt for 2 barracks built right after the command center to keep up in unit macro, and you really won't be far behind in unit production anyway given most map timings


i've found this to be very effective also =)

im hardly a SC pro, but i have just won 6/6 using this (5 "practice matches" and 1 placement match)



i've scrapped using it though lol. i found it to be too general a build to be a bit stronger from start to finish. basically:

tvz: weak vs early roach
tvz: weak vs good baneling flanking and massive hydra macro
tvp: weak against collosus ranged upgrade timing push
tvt: extremely weak against fast siege aggression

---

so i've opted for

tvz: siege fe into thor timing
tvz: hellion into cloaked banshee into expand
tvp: lol marauder early aggression into 4rax and ghosts and medivac drops
tvt: quick siege aggression
KimTaeyeon MEDIC MU fighting! ^^;;
Licmyobelisk
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines3682 Posts
March 23 2010 12:26 GMT
#86
On March 20 2010 10:37 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Hello everyone,

I don't know if nayone sitll remebers me but I'm the guy that started that whole "Strong BO's" for individual maps movemnt for a while on Liquipedia I. Well now I have one for you guys I have had very good success with.

PvZ Forge First FE
(this is assuming you see something like a 12 hatch/14 pool/ no immediate rush), and of course constant probe production aside form a supply block you will hit for a min at 18 supply, and at 15 supply.

9: Pylon at choke
9: Scout
11: Forge
14: Cannon
15: Cut Probes
15: Gateway
15: Cannon
15: Resume Probes
16: Gas
17: Cyber Core
18: Nexus
18: Pylon
18: Warp Gate Research
19: Sentry (Chrono)
21: Gas
22: Cannon
22: Stargate
25: Stalker (Chrono)
25: Gas
Next: Twlight Council than Pheonix against mass roaches otherwise Pheonix

Follow up is chrono-boosted Phoenix harass, or Pheonix/DT harass if the Zerg turtles too long.

The build obviously does not work on maps without natural expansions or a semi-wallable choke.

Also the opening also depends on what you scout (or sometimes what you don't scout). Of you fail to scout the zerg right away or see a ling rush coming you would want to change the build to have the second cannon go before the gateway.

Here's my example of the wall that is optimal for this build on LT IMO. I put in in another thread but would love to have you guys try it out!

+ Show Spoiler +


NOTE: All walls use the same order of cannons:
1: Nearest the plylon on the near ground

2: The other low ground spot

3: The high ground nearest the choke (assuming the opponent is not rying a zergling runby in which case swap 3 and 4)

4: On the high ground near the ramp

North:
This might not be right, i think i messed up the forge position, will update esoon
[image loading]


South
[image loading]


East:
[image loading]


West:
[image loading]



Why it's worked so far: I guess I better explain why this actually works lol.

If the Zerg goes 6 pool or something you will have very early cannons but will not have the gateway to block. It's rough but you can possibly survive.

If the Zerg does a semi-early pool like 9-10 and tries a Zergling run by, it often does next to nothing because they are only able to get 1-2 lings in ur main for scout and annoyance by the time the cannons do their work.

If the Zerg does a late pool like 14-15 your gravy as you will get the expansion off easily, and could even delay the core until after the Nexus.

If the Zerg FE's, again you are gravy, as you will on par economy wise with him. If the Zerg FE's you can probably expand off of one cannon, forge, and a gateway.

If the Zerg does a one base roach bust, it's very hard to defend. One base roach play is probably the thing I have had most difficulty with. It involves using force field very effectively, and getting good use out of your first Pheonix to make the Zerg push before they would have liked to.

If the Zerg does a one base Roach/Hydra, you will have Pheonix's to keep the Hydra's pinned in the base. If they leave, his overlords die. I add a second stargate early against this, as they will not have enough Hydra's to defend against 2-4 Pheonix's at that point

If they go mass Hydra harass like crazy with Pheonix's, but only off one stargate. It needs to be chrono boosted like crazy but gateways + robo tech is needed. Using force field to split control groups of hydras is very effective

Let me know if it works for you too!



Ei, is this Worm proof? I've seen Oystein try this and he got a worm inside his base...
I don't think I've ever wished my opponent good luck prior to a game. When I play, I play to win. I hope every opponent I ever have is cursed with fucking terrible luck. I hope they're stuck playing underneath a stepladder with a black cat in attendance a
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 23 2010 16:06 GMT
#87
I'm going to revoke my previous build and say that banshee rushing in tvt is now extremely unreliable. I heavily suggest marine frenzy or a really safe siege build into timing push.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
March 23 2010 22:28 GMT
#88
Ok, I think I can spare the time to finally go back and clear the back log. LP account is up to Platinum Rank 14 now, so we're legit

On March 05 2010 23:56 BeyondCtrL wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Terran FE using Planetary Fortress

I've been brainstorming about the Terran metagame and how a lot of the Terran build involve bio builds going off of one base timing attacks. They work really well, but I think mech has a lot of unnoticed potential due to the heavy gas requirements. The BO I am trying to make work is a standard opening for a Terran against both Protoss and Zerg that can withstand early pressure and maintain an early expansion.

So far this is mostly theoretical and I have tried it on Lost Temple (probably the best map there is, imho) and the timing of it seems practical. So bear with me while I list the BO and my reasoning.

10 SD
12 Barracks
14 Refinery (1 SCV on gas)
15-16 Barracks should be complete and you should have about enough minerals (don't make SCV until you can afford it) to start a CC in your base and start pumping marines (don't upgrade Barracks yet, CC at 15 if don't use SCV scout, 16 with scout) + wall off (if pssible).
19 Add 2nd SCV to gas and pump SCV + Marines (ratio depending on early pressure)
22 Add 3rd SCV to gas start construction of an Engineering Bay and Orbital Command

Now once your CC is done lift of and float to expansion and you should have precisely enough gas and minerals to start upgrading it to a PF. Compliment it with two bunkers (on LT one on the juttting ledge and one right next to the PF against the ramp. You should have enough marines to fully or nearly fully occupy both bunkers which will both cover each other supporting your PF and makeing run-by's extremely tough. This should be about 6-7 minutes game time. That much firepower at your door (coupled with repair) should stave off any attack at that point in the game. Adding another bunker if you want for a total of 12 marines. Line SD's infront of your bunkers and PF to counter banelings.

Now you are at a cross-road of choice here. You can opt for 3-4 gas to go heavy mech (for Zerg I would imagine, and recommend getting reactor SP asap for 2x Viking for Overlord sniping and try to force the Zerg to go Hydra instead of muta. And keep those Ovies away from your base to stave off any Nydus surprises (can use Radar Tower if you want). If you manage to stave off the mutalisk and force the Zerg to Hydra you can mech up with Siege and Hellions.

or...

You can go a bit easier on the gas and go for MnMnM's

Regardless of what you choose the marines you have will help stave off any all rushes (hopefully) of ground and air (remember to constatly produce marines until you have a Factory and SP. And by 10 min ingame you should have have a fully operational and hopefully unbreakable front door. They key element is basically getting air-superiority to force your oppenent to come to your front door. Or if they are passive the econ boost will allow you to field a large army of gas expensive units and upgrades allowing you to push with a ground force supported by vikings and tanks and control the map.

I realize this BO is quite rusty, but I think with practice the timings and BO could yet further be improved.


Tried this. Against Zerg, it unfortunately doesn't work against mass Ling openings because he just rushed in when he saw that I was taking my expo, and literally raped everything (Planetary Fortress was still building). You just can't fight off mass lings. If he's going for a Roach opening, it might be doable though. It's a very careful balance. Even if you pull a ton of SCVs, the fact that you're down so many SCVs + you don't have the extra MULE from the Nat CC hurts you far too much.

Against Protoss, I had some great success with this against any Templar builds that skipped the Robo. Unfortunately, once I had a guy go for a quick Colossus push, and I had a lot of trouble pushing that back. Thankfully he mismicroed and I got the Colossus, but it was tense for a while. However, I think I could have blocked the Colossus better. Might be possible TvP.

I'd like to note though, that this is very map dependent. Kula's Ravine, he can kill the rocks and there's nothing that I can really do. Blistering Sands, same deal. Lost Temple, Protoss can proxy a pylon and warp in units above the cliff, brings a Colossus up the cliff, and it's hard to push that back. Zerg might be able to Nydus worm, but I'm not sure. Doable on Steppes of War though .

On March 07 2010 09:00 threehundred wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114689

+ Show Spoiler +

THE T v TPZ STANDARD BUILD ORDER VS EVERYTHING IS AS FOLLOWS <3

Now I'm no Platinum Player, nor DO i actually have a BETA KEY (I play on my friends account that is in GOLD LEAGUE), I play about 8-20 games every few days and I believe I have about a 75% win ratio against most players at this 'matchmaking' level.

10 supply SCV finishes and scouts ASAP
12 barracks SCV finishes and builds supply wall (2nd depot)
14 refinery 2 SCVs on gas (don't take any off you need it for next few steps)
15-16 orbital command you should have exactly around 150 minerals and SCV just finishing
2nd supply around this time that SCV that built the barracks

1 marine usually against scouting worker
-----
MULE ASAP AND AS MUCH AS YOU CAN
18-20 command center all your economy at this point is waiting for 400 minerals to build a command center
-----
2ND BARRACKS
3RD BARRACKS

these 3 barracks should complete JUST in-time against some early game all-ins, or at least those that i've seen so far
-----
ENGINEERING BAY
1. bio is STRONG from start to finish against all races
2. early upgrades means TIMING PUSHES +1/+1
3. turret(s) deters dark templar rushes
4. turret(s) deters cloaked banshees when your orbital command energy is down from mules
5. PLANETARY FORTRESS EXPO strategy to follow
-----
2ND refinery
-----
(on your barracks obviously, you should have enough gas by now from harvesting earlier)
TECHLAB
REACTOR
REACTOR

-----
+1 ATTACK TO INFANTRY WEAPONS
-----
MACRO PRODUCE 4 MARINES AND 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOU CAN MOVE OUT
-----
SECURING YOUR EXPO AS YOU MOVE OUT:
Obviously your experience comes into play here as to how many units you need to defend this
critical movement.

Basic guidelines as follows:


If you scouted more tier one production facilities then he'll have more combat units PROBABLY as you move out. the number and timing of his units coming in obviously depends on his race, unit choices and building locations (proxy buildings too)

1. A spare SCV can run to his base if you want to be extra safe, or you can scan
2. land command center at natural and build a PLANETARY FORTRESS
3. I transfer about 6-8 SCV, someone will probably do the math on it one day
4. Build 1 turret at least and 1-2 bunkers
5. MAP CONSIDERATIONS
- double entrances should be scouted / visioned accordingly
- stronger choke points need lesser bunkers / probably no need for a planetary fortress if you want to be macro greedy with mules or ready with scans

Thoughts on planetary fortress:


It's just too good against most TIER 1 unit rushes during this timing. You can repair and micro your SCV and they'll give up on your expo and just try breaking your ramp which can be unit blocked by your ground army/walls anyway. Although it is NOT NECESSARY to have a planetary fortress if you scout a lesser early aggressive build anyway, most of the time just building it deters many early attacks anyway (especially stubborn players that choose to get slaughtered causing them to lose the game losing so many units)

-----
CONTINUE PRODUCING SCVS / MACRO WAVES OF UNITS 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER UNTIL YOUR CHOKE POINT 'FEELS SECURE'
-----
+1 ARMOR TO INFANTRY
RESEARCH STIMPACK
-----
3RD refinery
-----
FACTORY
FACTORY REACTOR
STARPORT
STARPORT ON FACTORY REACTOR

------
MACRO WAVES OF 4 MARINES 1 MARAUDER AND 2 MEDIVACS

I usually push out after 4 medivacs, by that time +1/+1 and STIM should be done WHEN YOU GET THE ENEMY'S BASE/EXPO with MARINE shields to follow.

It's roughly 9-10minutes into the game when I'm at their front door or getting through the backdoor.
------

From here either the game ends with me winning a timing push or winning map control. This same build has worked against all races so far, except some good roach all-in builds that get in through the backdoor that I've been working to be more weary of. The critical point of any FE build anyway is your lack of units to counter quick backdooring during your expo setup and I advise you change your builds on these maps. Like lol blistering sands with the stupid rock formation that is 10 units wide that allows 10 roaches in within the first 5+ minutes.

------

Some race dependent deviations:

4TH BARRACKS WITH REACTOR or TECHLAB
- TvT i just mass more marines
- TvP techlab to get GHOSTS if he gets a quick colussus
- TvZ more marauders if he goes with banelings
FACTORY WITH REACTOR
- TvZ hellions work well to kite banelings and can be macro'ed just as well with 4 marines, 1 marauder and 2 medivacs, you can also macro this during your first push off of your 2 bases
STARPORT WITH TECHLAB
- TvZ mid-late game i think it's the must have AoE if he's better at macro, i've failed though remember to use Ravens effectively


is exactly the

commandcenter -> planetary fortress build i use TvALL

i opt for 2 barracks built right after the command center to keep up in unit macro, and you really won't be far behind in unit production anyway given most map timings

This one unfortunately suffers from the same map problems as the first one does. I also encountered a really interesting early immortal timing push done against me while I was lifting my Planetary Fortress out. I had a lot of trouble holding it off and had to pull SCVs. Caught me off guard.

TvT I didn't get to try it, but I know that this build is a serious dice roll on many maps. The opposing Terran can easily take a gold mineral expo and out macro you pretty hard. Another danger I've found on Kula's Ravine and Lost Temple is the threat of a Tank drop above the cliff to snipe the Planetary Fortress. I know that there are a lot of abusive Tank positions on a lot of maps actually

Didn't get to try it out TvZ yet. My theory is that Zerg will snipe rocks if they can. If not, then they'll fast expo to a gold mineral field.

Just a general note on all Planetary Fortress FEs - if the opposing player expos to a gold mineral field, it's bad news for you . It's even worse against Zerg since they can take expos really easily vs T/P if you aren't aggressive.

On March 07 2010 12:37 blith wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Baneling Opener (ZvTbio)

10 Overlord
10 Pool
9 Extractor
8-11 Drones
100% Pool 6 Lings (11-14)
14 Baneling Nest (should have enough minerals+gas right after pool - also try to hide tech behind mineral line)
Lings hatch - scout, deny scout, harass, contain etc...
Save 150 minerals - Queen (13-15)
Save Minerals/Gas
100% Nest - hide 5 lings and morph Banelings for ambush, leave 1 ling to scout and lure.
Overlord
Drones
100 gas Lair
Power Drones with Inject Larva
50% Lair - 2nd Gas
Power Drones
100% Lair - BURROW then- proceed to mid-game by expanding, and/or hydra/spire tech)

Just been doing this the last few games and its worked out so far, so I just want to share it with you guys . Its not perfect, but I like Banelings and its just a good change from all the roach openings.

Important Notes:

HOPEFULLY he'll expect a roach rush if he spots your quick gas, try to kill the scout before putting down nest.

Early lings to sort of panic the Terran,
and more importantly: denying information.
You can pretty much wipe out his army if
you are in a good ambush position. But
like I said some Terrans may not even
suspect Banelings.

If he turtles in 1 base and pushes out later -
you'll have burrowed Banelings waiting for him.
Make sure you scatter your banes though,
so if he happens to scan in front of his base that
he doesn't find all of them (burrow 2 outside his choke,
burrow the other 3 further away).

In mid-game you can expand freely and do whatever you want .
I go for spire so I can see whats up.

Hope this helps people, if not I'll work on it.


One word. Hellions. I didn't even test this and I'm sure that it'll fall prey to a Hellion Rush, which is pretty damn popular right now.

On March 09 2010 14:17 obesechicken13 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

6 probe
.... dunno what after

Mass archon zealot vs zerg with phoenix to lift off pesky hydras running away or broodlords above cliffs. The idea is that in SC1 even though melee units (zealots) were stronger straight up against some ranged units (dragoons) the dragoons would just run away and shoot, being really really pesky, and the zealots would all be like wtf!

Now when things run away, you use antigravity and SC2's superior spell casting system, to abuse the raiders phoenix's ensnare antigravity ability so if your opponent runs, they lose half their units. Archons do higher damage vs bio, and zerg don't have emp, so I think the strategy should work better vs zerg. They also shoot psi storms now afaik, so take advantage of it and neglect ht altogether.

Thanks for this thread!

Archons really, really suck, and that unit combo you mentioned just falls flat against Roaches.

On March 09 2010 19:41 threehundred wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

i just went straight to platinum in 2v2 because of my 9-1 record in placements playing as LOLZERG.

the build and plan was simple

10 overlord
13 pool
12 drone
13 extractor
3 on gas till 100
build drones till 16/18
build queen
build overlord 18/18
take drones off gas at 100
build 2nd hatch beside main
research speed

pump lings and overlords cut drones completely

when you have about 20 lings with speed just go all-in and destroy their nexus/commandcenter/hatchery and rally your hatcheries with lings pumping

strategy: hit and run, never engage units unless you know you'll win, just kill the main resource gathering things and you'll run over them in the next few minutes

bottomline is, the placement matches are pretty noob anyway, so if you want that lol-platinum division rank under your 2v2, im pretty sure zerg has it the easiest.

2v2...? I don't play 2v2 Placement matches are kind of fail in the first place. And err... I don't think FE builds are popular in 2v2, or maybe it's just me.

On March 10 2010 10:41 brocoli wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

PvP Sanctuary


Get assimilators fast. They are a part of the wall, and they cost only 75 minerals. Besides, you will need some gas.
Do some micro vs the first zealots, but make sure you come back to block the holes behind mineral lines, etc.
use every single building to protect your probes. You are teching to cannons ASAP.
mind you'll probably lose a pylon. replace it preemptively.
Start building a few sentries & stalkers from the inside. Then place cannons.

Finally, if this madness works, tech to something. Phoenixes are a good opener vs robo.

I.. er.. Assimilators as part of a wall in? I don't get it. I really don't get it.



I stopped there. I know there's a lot of builds I still haven't gotten to, but I'll test them out after I get home from school today.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
arkaros
Profile Joined April 2009
Sweden24 Posts
March 23 2010 23:39 GMT
#89
Played arround with 14 nexus today:

9 pylon
14 nexus -> scout
no timing on gateway. Scout and decide but usually build it at 15 and use chronobost on gateways instantly.
16 pylon
@100% gateway. Cyber
20 pylon
@100% Cyber. robotics + warpgate
25 pylon
@100% robotics use all of your chrono boosts for immortals to counter marauders.

(Add lots of warpgates coz your economy will be awesome)

I am really new and got beta yesterday so have like 15 matches played but i see all do like a 1/2 gate tech now days and thought it would be fun to test this out. Would truly love some response on this.
I suck :P
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
March 24 2010 07:00 GMT
#90
On March 11 2010 07:08 quirk wrote:
Fast hydra/lair rush/build
This is a build that I am experimenting with. Because of time constraints I would like some feedback/testing from better players(I am in the bronze league). I haven't tested it enough so the timings might not be correct.

The build(basic zerg opening):
9 Overlord
10-13 Drones
13 Extractor
12 Pool
100% Extractor send drones
100% Pool build Lair - My idea/hope would be that when the pool finishes you have 100 gas.
Maybe it isn't that necessary to get exact amount/timing.
After starting lair - make zerglings/drones as necessary, you could also expand at this time(I expanded).
100% Lair build Hydra den and a queen
Mass hydras after....(I know that this isn't really a good goal, but this is as far as I had thought)

I know the build isn't that detailed, but would like some feedback/replays from better players. The most obvious problem would be early rushes, because so far when I tried this build I had very few defenses (Mostly powered drones).

Thank you for your time/feedback


I tried this once and didn't like it at all. Hydras aren't THAT good in ZvX. Plus you sacrifice economy to get Hydras out faster, and I had a noticeably worse economy than with something like a Roach build. Hydras themselves don't really threaten a win either . I found it hard to do really anything with the Hydras, and I had to race to get my economy back up to par.

On March 12 2010 01:07 ArC_man wrote:
Multitask intensive harass build TvZ:

I wanted to do this for a while but I'm on a business trip and I can't play any games for 2-3 weeks so all I can do is theorycraft =(.

Basically it's just an add-on to the hellion opener except for faster hellions and a transition into reapers. Theory behind it is since zergs are kinda forced to block the hellion opening with roaches on the ramp, you might be able to exploit their mineral line by immediately teching to reapers. So essentially you will get reaper harass at their mineral line and hellion harass at their ramp.

The build would be
10 rax
11 depot
11 gas
11 orbital
2 marines (try to use them to deny scouting drones and lings as much as possible)
1st 100 gas goes to factory (normally you can squeeze a 3rd rine in the 10depot/12rax build but you're really short on minerals with this build so you barely get enough minerals for a factory at 100 gas)
2nd 50 gas goes to reactor on rax
immediately lift rax and build a tech lab after reactor is complete
keep pumping hellions and maybe build 4ish reapers (not too sure about the number).

With the 10/11/11/11 build, you get 2 hellions 30+ seconds faster than the standard 10depot/12rax build, this alone will probably throw off a lot of zerg's timings. I wanted to see if reapers could create any more havoc or if they arrive simply too late to do anything if zerg already has too many units. It would require a lot of multitasking (reapers, then hellions, as well as macroing).

An alternative to harassing the mineral line with reapers is to target the natural hatchery (but be within range to just jump into their main if the roaches come down). This forces the zerg to make a decision of either coming down to get ur reapers (and potentially allowing hellions up his ramp and reapers up his ramp also) or just letting his hat die. If he charges down with a few roaches and still has some blocking his ramp, you could run your hellions away and jump your reapers into his main to harass his mineral line. You could even bring your first 2 marines to help kill the hatchery.

Of course this won't outright kill a zerg, but hopefully you can cripple him enough as well as expand yourself and then just roll him afterwards with m/m (of course if he's going 1 base it won't be as effective, I'd still like to see how well it works against 1 base though). Almost like Bisu's corsair/dt multitask harass =P.

I tried this on Blistering Sands, and I really liked it. My opponent went Roaches, but I'm not sure how well this will do against the mass speedling opening that's been popular lately. Speedlings become impossible to micro against on creep :/

I really like this idea, since it can transition wonderfully into anything if the initial harass ends up not doing too much. Since a lot of the current maps used have easily abusable cliffs, reapers can end up being fairly strong. I ended up getting just two reapers and four Hellions, then I switched tech. Still, speedlings on creep scare me big time...

On March 12 2010 02:43 See.Blue wrote:
I am not in Beta and have no key so I can't write you up a specific build order, but I would be enormously appreciative if you could test (or someone could theory-craft-shoot-down) a TvP Metal + Marauder/Ghost (w. Raven in lategame, gas permitting) build that would aim to approach the matchup similarly to standard SC:BW matches. The tanks, protected by salvageably, leapfrogging bunkers of marauders (with slowing attack) with ghosts on the front lines ready with EMP would give you map control, allowing yourself to slowly push the Protoss while simultaneously enabling you to take an extra expansion or two as seen fit by the player.

Premise
This build capitalizes on three things:

+ Tanks in SC2 have both higher DPS and greater range than their SC:BW counterparts (See this thread)

+ Ghosts with EMP absolutely annihilate Protoss forces, and, as icing on the cake, neutralize Immortal's special ability.

+ Bunker's are rapidly salvageable (I think for 100% return)

Strategy
The idea behind the build would be similar to Vulture + Mines + Tank from SC:BW. The major problems with this being effective in SC2 are generally thought to be lack of spider mines/vultures to deal with Zealots (particularly now sporting charge) and Immortals. To deal with this, I would love to see a Terran try to do the good old fashioned Tank line leapfrogging (preferably +1/ ) supported by a few scv's constructing bunkers (say 2-4 at any one given point in time, blocking off as much of the frontal approach to your tanks as possible). These would house marauders who would be aimed at keeping zealots/stalkers off of your tanks (their slowing attack would also probably give your tanks time to get an extra shot off. Either ravens or a flying barracks or something would be necessary to give you enough vision (particularly up cliffs) to prevent stalkers blink-bombing your tank line from out of sight/up cliffs. While setting up this push this would give the terran player time to expand; the only thing the T would have to be exceptionally careful of would be backstabs and protoss switching to air while his troops are committed to the tank line (ie from Warp Prisms or Colossi). However, with BW level scouting and perhaps even forgoing one MULE for a prescient scan mid-to-late game scan (which so far has been rarely seen in SC2), preventative measures could be taken in time to render any of these fairly ineffectual (a handful of vikings for example to deal with voidrays). Lategame, Ravens would probably be quite useful for autoturrent support/worker harassment and point-defense-drone (effectively D-Matrix) support for either your ground or viking force.

Conclusions
The main purpose of this build is to take away the Protoss' options both in terms of unit selection and map movement. This would be a micro/macro intensive build and would require constant scouting throughout to make sure the Protoss isn't committing to air (which is a winnable battle for the Terran if seen coming in advance, and would represent an enormous commitment for the Protoss) or trying to warp in DT into the opponents base. In fact a handful of 'patrol vikings' would probably be handy just to discourage warp prism/colossi cliff-walking shenanigans. In the end however, the Protoss is forced to try to break your marauder/tank/ghost line, which, with proper micro should hold against a food-equivalent Protoss ground force.

Feedback/thoughts?

Also, thanks again liquipedia guys for doing this!

I found this hard to execute. Tank/Marauder/Ghost is really gas intensive, so I had barely anything left over to get Vikings for anti-Colossus. I ended up getting rolled by Zealot/Colossus/Immortal since the Tanks just splashed the Marauders after the Zealots were up close. Colossi didn't help with their 46 damage shot. The bunker concept is novel, but I found it rather tricky to execute. They also didn't help all that much I felt



I don't think I gave the 2nd and 3rd ones enough time to fully work out the timings that each build would entail.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
GsOne
Profile Joined November 2005
Poland164 Posts
March 26 2010 10:34 GMT
#91
PvT, preferably on Steppes of War or other small 2 player map.

7th probe goes out, make a pylon around 9/10 as near T's natural or close to his big ramp.
Chronoboost 9th probe, you will stop production at 10 for a while. Save next chronoboosts for Zealots.
9th probe goes out to place a Gateway.
Now the important part: the idea is not to just proxy-gate chronoboost-zealot rush him. When your 7th probe reaches his main, his supply depot will be finishing most likely. Since SCV's hp got nerfed horrendously, harrasing a working SCV will cause T to pull SCV's to defend. This should actually make you about even or ahead in working peons. Abuse rapid shield regeneration - fight 1 on 1, run and wait till your shields are back up. Your second probe should be in his base before he completes his Barracks, which means he will have to pull LOTS of SCV's to not lose immediately by you denying his Rax. Time the second gateway, chronoboost zealot and 3 probes FTW.

I think T is fucked if he goes 10 Supply -> 12 Rax at his ramp because of huge distance between his CC and harrased workers, also he probably won't get to wall-in properly and will have to fight Zealots head on. Also, if he goes rax first the idea is basically the same, however I would skip second gateway and tech/expo in my main instead, aiming for huge slowdown caused by early Probe harrasment.
AeonFlux
Profile Joined March 2010
Ukraine101 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-26 20:04:08
March 26 2010 18:38 GMT
#92
1st of all i want to sorry about my bad english but I hope u wiil understand what i write.

Hello everyone, i have good strategy for terrans. Hope u will test it and like it, cas i dont have a beta key, so i couldn't try this tactics with humans. And.. Hope some1 will give me a key, if my strategy will dominate the ladder.
Its strategy for terran.

9th worker makes supply, then he makes barracks. and now here goes our trick - we make engeneering bay as fast as we get 125. thats done to prevent any scouting from the enemy. on wide ramp (lost temple) we block it with EB, Rax, supply. on narrow ramp (desert oasis) we make just rax and eneneering bay and we build supply near minerals geeting some economic bonus.
and remember - dont do any scouting. we dont need it. cas our plan will counter everithing. how? read further.
if u have wide ramp - then put barrax in mid of it, EB on other side, and supply at other side - put supply at place where enemy will have most troble running through it after blowing supply up with banelings. behind supply place factory (or other building).. the pass must be blocked fully (in situation where supply destoyed, so if no - put behind supply any buildnig u want with 850 (EB) or more hp.

why we make eneneering bay? just cas we need to block the ramp, and EB is cheper then 2nd rax. we need attachment to rax, but placing attachement at ramp is not good.. and also we dont need enemy to see what attachment we make. so place 2nd rax in mid of your base. also after an enemey sees EB he ll go to panic. he be asking what we make? fortreess rush? or fast expand with planetary fortress? we do none of it.

after we block the ramp (and no scout passed) we quickly place two gases. if scout by some miracle passed - make gas anyway.. cas i dont see other options here

then we make 3 rax with techlabe and 1 starport. for starport we make reactor. and then we start produicng only marauders and vikings. we ll also need to lift off starport once to make techlab and build 1 raven. dont go without raven. make all grades for marauders (attack and defence from two engeneering bays and stimpack). and no upgrades for viking.. we ll need also armory. dont for get to place 1 turret at mineras and 1 at entrance to your base.

that u can try, but that isnt the perfect tactics. the perfect part is only blocking ramp with rax and EB and then placing two fast gases. (dont forget orbital station, sure, after rax is complet)
after that u can make banshee or nukes, but i dont know what is best. so for now i reccomend marauders and vikings+1 raven. i ll think more what is best.

Also blocking ramp with EB and Rax prevents all fast rushes so its extra safe, but also good economically and has big varaities of what to do next. u can go foretres rush, FE with PF, or go fast tech.
Apexplayer
Profile Joined September 2009
United States406 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-03 18:59:56
March 26 2010 21:11 GMT
#93
I have beta and I know this build wont work, general idea is still good.

Terran Fast Hellions to Doom Drop (vs Zerg)

I present this build idea to the community, I do not have beta and do not know exact timings, help would be appreciated.

This build was inspired by Day[9]'s commentary on the fantasy build vs zerg.

Goals behind build:
- 4 goals of build
1. Get a few (4) hellions out ASAP and harass with them
2. Tech to Starport+reactor and get out 6+ Medivacs
3. Two pronged attack. Doom Drop Zergs main with 6+ full medivacs while sending a few hellions to natural.
4. Expand During attack

The build (so far) (Any help from people who actually have the beta is asked.)
10 depot
11 gas
13 Barracks (only a few marines, the less, the better, I suggest 1)
? orbital
17? fac
18? depot
? 2nd rax (While the factory is building, cut SCV's possibly)
? reactor addon for first rax (While the factory is building, cut SCV's possibly)
? 3rd rax (While the factory is building, cut SCV's possibly)
? 2nd gas
? (switch fact and rax for reactor addon, get 4 hellions and move out, after the 4th hellion switch the reactor back to the barracks for marines) (constant marine production)
? port (before first 4 hellions are finished)
25 depot
? tech lab addon for 2nd rax (pump marauders)
? tech lab addon for 3rd rax (pump marauders)
? reactor addon for port (pump medivacs)
? stim
? +health? (not sure if it's good to even get this.)
? depot
? depot
? depot
? Command center

From 25, constant marine, marauder, medivac production, use the factory without addon to make a few hellions .


Goal of the fast hellions in order of importance:
-Map control, if you have hellions on the map, he wont want to move out, so even if he did go for early roaches, he usually wouldn't be able to try and break you with them in fear of retaliation.
-Scout, specifically if he stayed on one base or not, what is he teching to if he is? (obviously get turrets if this is the case.)
-Drones, Nom nom nom free drones, don't lose all your hellions though.

Extra strategy:
-Try to drop first and sneak hellions in just after opponent notices drop. Most newbs will recall their whole army to their main. (1hotkey for army newbs)
- If contained, sneak hellions out with a drop, then return to main and load up for the doom drop.
-Again, if they are containing you (which is pretty much a win for you with this build) build extra defenses and prepare to pull scv's / mules.
-He has too many units fighting you off in main? medEVAC outta there! you should still have hellions doing dmg in natural.

Things to note if you are going to try this build:
-Prevent scouting, 1st marine should be enough to kill any overlord.
-Switch factory and barracks for reactor. This means showing the factory with your wall off depots, this is ok.
-You are surviving until early midgame with just marines and 4 hellions, be wary of attacks and don't be afraid of having to make a bunker & pull scv's.
-The goal is to both produce medivacs and enough units to fill the medivacs in the same amount of time. Another barracks might have to be added into build.

Possible improvements:
-Incorporate hellions with upgrade in drop
- 2 barracks with reactors w/ 1 tech lab instead of vice versa.

Summary of build:
The entire goal of the build it to get a doom drop in the zergs main ASAP. You get an extremely fast factory and use it for a few hellions & map control. While dropping you expand to continue play.

Edit: I was thinking of just posting it like this in strategy, but maybe with your help we can make it a full fledged build!
machinus
Profile Joined January 2010
United States291 Posts
March 27 2010 13:39 GMT
#94
When will the build results be entered in liquipedia 2?
brocoli
Profile Joined February 2010
Brazil264 Posts
March 27 2010 15:06 GMT
#95
I meant to build every building Really Really close to the workers, so as to completely block the mineral patch entrance from at least one side. I was just madness from my part, but the funny thing is that I've seen this used effectively recently on a 2v2 with ZPvsTZ

P started at bottom-left so the mineral patch was open top-left and right. He build an assimilator, 2 gates and 1-2 pylons in the right side, and a pylon and a cyber-core top-ish, so T had to go all the way around P's base to harass workers, so he could just defend the base opening with a few units, and his ally's speedlings could defend better too (since they would surround T's forces)
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
March 29 2010 23:07 GMT
#96
On March 24 2010 16:00 Mystlord wrote:

I found this hard to execute. Tank/Marauder/Ghost is really gas intensive, so I had barely anything left over to get Vikings for anti-Colossus. I ended up getting rolled by Zealot/Colossus/Immortal since the Tanks just splashed the Marauders after the Zealots were up close. Colossi didn't help with their 46 damage shot. The bunker concept is novel, but I found it rather tricky to execute. They also didn't help all that much I felt


Haha ok, fair enough. Thanks a lot for testing it out anyways!
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
March 30 2010 11:29 GMT
#97
Idea! Why not en corporate an extra queen in to your regular BO for ZvP and ZvT to make just creep and then later on be switched into a queen that leads the charge/ supports the charge for your army by healing them and doing lots of damage to lots/ colossus? I know the creep making queen has been mentioned but I was wondering if every BO that the zerg can do(including 2 hatch muta) that isn't 1 base turtling can work with this.
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
mr1nocence
Profile Joined April 2010
United States21 Posts
April 02 2010 20:37 GMT
#98
I don't have a beta key, sadly. But, I can still dream up some random strats/BO's...
just a brainstorm, take it as you wish :D.

ZvT, 'breaking' the terran wall. Hey, instead of attacking that supply depot, why not prevent it from building with.... creep? Ovie creep spawn paired with quick lings? Probably not doable, the next one seems better.

ZvT+P, creep tumor vs natural expansion. More practical? Exactly as the name suggests, a queen spawning a creep tumor on the natural of your enemy. Follow up by multiplying that tumor.

this is just a random thought:
Smokescreen spincrawler rush. Build a spine crawler in the smokescreen, using the early game drone scout, w/ an overlord overhead, then advance it behind the mineral line. get units to knock on the front door, and force him to split his attention
search mrinocence on youtube to play an interactive survival game :D
Setev
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Malaysia390 Posts
April 03 2010 22:58 GMT
#99
On February 23 2010 17:05 Imperator wrote:
The Liquipedia Team has gotten a beta key. We are asking you, the users, to provide your brilliant BOs for us to test out against the world! Please be as specific as you can.


Hi there!

I would like to see an all-in Terran mech build against all races, quite similar to a Flash build in the sense that it uses early upgrades for the mech units to kill enemies faster, and require good micro for the Hellions and siege tanks. Here we go:

1. Do the wall-off with supply depots and barracks with tech labs. Get marauders/marine in small amounts, --> 3 marines 1 marauder for early defense.

2. Go for mech build by placing refinery, factory, and double armory for fast vehicle upgrades.

3. Build hellions and siege tanks. Of course you have to stagger building (step 2), upgrades, and unit production (step3) so as to not get caught off guard by cheese/rush.

4. Build ghosts for EMP (only against Protoss, if against Zerg you may consider omitting this step)

5. Since hellions can be built in large amounts due to this build and the fact they require no gas, use them for scouting instead of using the orbital scan. Build missile turrets around mineral line to detect stealth attackers. This way, you can use the energy to call down endless hordes of mules to boost income for macro. Needless to say, hellions with missile turret is good counter against DT rush.

6. Build starports with reactors and macro vikings for air defense, earlier if enemy make for early air raid. Mass vikings solve the problem of mass broodlords, mass collossi, mass voidray, mass mutalisks, and mass banshees for the Terran player. Since armoury also have teran ship upgrades, your vikings will be wtfpwn against air units.

7. Did you notice I don't use any Thors? Well that is because I think the pathing for Thor is a bit tough to micro, and they get killed so easily unless you have SCVs accompanying, but this will also block the other units' pathing. Due to this factor, I think Thor is worthless.

So, in a nutshell, you now have a force of hellions as meat shield, siege tanks to lay the smackdown, and vikings to guard air/harass, all with very fast upgrades. At this stage I guess you can crush opponents now? I really really hope this gets shown in future VODs.. and that the commentators will show it on youtube.
I'm the King Of Nerds
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-06 16:10:45
April 06 2010 15:04 GMT
#100
1base Hellion/Marauder timing attack

Saw this in a thread and liked it, not sure how viable it is at the top but I've beaten rank #1 gold players with it.

10 depot
12 rax
13 refinery (3 on gas when it's done)
15 OC
1-2 marines (make more if a rush is coming)
tech lab
2nd barracks
@ 100 gas, Factory
@ 50 gas, pre-build reactor on the 2nd barracks
@ 100% factory & 100% reactor, lift factory and put it on reactor core
2nd tech lab on 2nd barracks
Pump marauder from 2 rax, pump hellion from reactor factory

Attack when you have either 4 hellions or 6 hellions. Depending on what opponent is getting and how effective your attack is, you can either expand or tech to starport (e.g. if you see mass roach then get banshee, if you see hydra then get infernal pre-igniter upgrade, if you see mutas switch factory onto a tech lab and get armory for thors, if you see mass spine crawler then expand, etc.)

This seems to be very effective on maps with a hard-to-defend nat, i.e. scrap station, desert oasis, to a lesser extent kulas ravine. If zerg did an FE, this attack will come before mutas if they went spire, and will come right as they begin hydra production if they went hydra den.
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
TzTz
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany511 Posts
April 07 2010 03:05 GMT
#101
Hey, through some testing vs PC I've come up with this build.

I'm only in silver league, but managed to get quite some points with this by beating Platinum players.
It's designed as an all purpose build, but I've only put it to good use in TvT yet. Basically you get Stimpack+Combatshield+2Medivac Timing Push. It's easily adaptible to certain things. You can Build some more Marauders and get Stim/Shield Later and play it as a drop with 4 Medivacs.
This can be followed up by Siegetank+Expansion for example.

Here's the build order and some replays, the one versus PC is the one where i dont screw up and the timing lines up quite nicely:

10 Depot (send SCV at around 60 Minerals at 9 supply, with the 10th SCV already in queue)
12 Barracks
13 Refinery
15 Orbital Command
15 Tech Lab at first Barracks
15 Depot
After 2 Marauders produce Marines instead
21 Barracks
22 Depot
23 Gas
25 Stim
27 Reactor at second Barracks
29 Depot
30 Factory
40 Reactor at Factory + Starport (Lift the Starport over to the Reactor and then pump Medivacs)
45 Combat Shield
Go and add Techlab to Factory get Siegemode and Expansion

depending on what you scout you can also go vikings etc.

I'll add some replays:

vs PC
vs Platinum Terran
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
April 07 2010 19:19 GMT
#102
On April 07 2010 00:04 BlasiuS wrote:
1base Hellion/Marauder timing attack

Saw this in a thread and liked it, not sure how viable it is at the top but I've beaten rank #1 gold players with it.

10 depot
12 rax
13 refinery (3 on gas when it's done)
15 OC
1-2 marines (make more if a rush is coming)
tech lab
2nd barracks
@ 100 gas, Factory
@ 50 gas, pre-build reactor on the 2nd barracks
@ 100% factory & 100% reactor, lift factory and put it on reactor core
2nd tech lab on 2nd barracks
Pump marauder from 2 rax, pump hellion from reactor factory

Attack when you have either 4 hellions or 6 hellions. Depending on what opponent is getting and how effective your attack is, you can either expand or tech to starport (e.g. if you see mass roach then get banshee, if you see hydra then get infernal pre-igniter upgrade, if you see mutas switch factory onto a tech lab and get armory for thors, if you see mass spine crawler then expand, etc.)

This seems to be very effective on maps with a hard-to-defend nat, i.e. scrap station, desert oasis, to a lesser extent kulas ravine. If zerg did an FE, this attack will come before mutas if they went spire, and will come right as they begin hydra production if they went hydra den.


with patch 8 marauder changes I'm not sure how well this works now, if at all
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
Setev
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Malaysia390 Posts
April 08 2010 10:20 GMT
#103
Hi guys how to know if someone actually used one of the builds mentioned? Besides what is the best source of VODs - youtube or here?
I'm the King Of Nerds
Beanpaste
Profile Joined April 2010
United States33 Posts
April 10 2010 07:11 GMT
#104
Hi guys how to know if someone actually used one of the builds mentioned? Besides what is the best source of VODs - youtube or here?


Go to youtube --- in the search bar type "crota shoutcast" --- he is an excellent commentator --
I've learned a lot from watching ...
Half your life is ruined by your parents, the other half is ruined by your kids...
unsoundlogic
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States391 Posts
April 13 2010 19:23 GMT
#105
I'm sorry I don't have a build order, but I'm wondering about the effectiveness of a mass marine off 3 rax (with reactor) rush. I've seen it at low levels, so the build order's really off, but I think the build is getting just enough gas for reactors and maybe an orbital command then pulling all scv's off gas, while getting 3 rax and reactors and spamming marines. The attack comes maybe around 6 minutes?
Thanks!
threehundred
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada911 Posts
April 17 2010 07:41 GMT
#106
On April 14 2010 04:23 unsoundlogic wrote:
I'm sorry I don't have a build order, but I'm wondering about the effectiveness of a mass marine off 3 rax (with reactor) rush. I've seen it at low levels, so the build order's really off, but I think the build is getting just enough gas for reactors and maybe an orbital command then pulling all scv's off gas, while getting 3 rax and reactors and spamming marines. The attack comes maybe around 6 minutes?
Thanks!


against zerg it gets eaten by roach, against terran by siege tank (if he techs to it after seeing it), against protoss anything will kill it
KimTaeyeon MEDIC MU fighting! ^^;;
teekesselchen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany886 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 20:03:59
April 20 2010 20:01 GMT
#107
Actually I was so faszinated with this build, I made it an own thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120504

Playable in this situation: Against Zerg, possibly close air posi, best with maps that have island expansions.

BO is:
10 depot, 12 rax, 13 gas, 16 OC, then adding fac, another rax and 2nd gas, then 1 starport with techlab.
Asap first Raven, followed by Raven Energy Upgrade when gas is ready, followed by second raven. With 2 ravens go for zerg ecoline and drop 3 Autoturrets.
While building raven getting at least one hellion for scouting. Depending on Zerg's aggression potential the marine count has to be adjusted.
When minerals are ready, usually between the first two ravens, build an expo which is supposed to become an island expansion as soon as possible, also it should take 5 SCVs with it.
Also get early Ebay (directly before or after expansion). It allows reaction on mutalisks by building AA-Turrets and to secure expansion. Island Expo takes 2x gas asap.
After second raven is in queue, add +2 building armor upgrade, later +1 Static Defense Range upgrade.
Add several Rax after Island expansion so you can spend all the vast minerals you don't need for ravens.
With three ravens and building armor, go for zerg's eco once more and drop as many turrets as possible. Continue pumping marines and Ravens from 2-3 Starports and harass his expansions with turrets. Get +duration for skills-upgrade later and ofc Combat Shield/Stimpak/Infantrie upgrade.

Tactical goals: Keep his army, economy and expansion count low so you can overrun hin with marines later. Harassing especially the main is the key as he HAS to fight the turrets there or give up 1) the eco 2) all his tech buildings


Possible responds for certain situations:
He goes fast Muta but no Banelings -> Marinepush
He goes fast Muta with Banelings -> Better change tactic a little, possibly thors or try to fight the mutas.
Behaviour when facing mutas in general: Tower up your bases, enough minerals are available, be careful with Ravens, but you can create save zones when you have durability upgrade and just drop a few towers close to his base. Won't be cheap for him to follow you through until you reach your AA-Turrets
Early roaches: Switching to early Banshees, Marauder or whatever you like against roaches
Mass Hydras: thats perfect for this strat, just don't get your ravens cought.
When they were introduced, he made a witticism, hoping to be liked. She laughed extremely hard, hoping to be liked. Then each drove home alone, staring straight ahead, with the very same twist to their faces.
Cooloff
Profile Joined April 2010
United States86 Posts
April 20 2010 20:13 GMT
#108
Can anyone do a good Z v Z?
When you go into court you are putting your fate into the hands of twelve people who weren’t smart enough to get out of jury duty.
Darkn3ss
Profile Joined November 2009
United States717 Posts
April 20 2010 21:03 GMT
#109
On February 23 2010 17:33 semantics wrote:
Okay update time~~~

A Guide with a lot of formating

14 Gas Speed (ZvP)[14 Extractor Speedlings]


I do 10 gas, 10 overlord, 13 pool, with 2 drones on gas and get 100gas EXACTLY when pool is done, having enough money for speed and queen, without being supply blocked and being able to expand around 24-25 while having ~6-8 speedlings and then depending on situation pumping either more lings or droning up.

After expo goes down I usually put third drone on gas and start lair as soon as I get 100 with speedling harassing, shutting down scouting, etc, etc, etc...

Devaztayta got a taste of this build last night ^^
Dont quote me boy, cuz I aint saying shhh...
Setev
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Malaysia390 Posts
April 22 2010 09:52 GMT
#110
On April 08 2010 04:19 BlasiuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2010 00:04 BlasiuS wrote:
1base Hellion/Marauder timing attack

Saw this in a thread and liked it, not sure how viable it is at the top but I've beaten rank #1 gold players with it.

10 depot
12 rax
13 refinery (3 on gas when it's done)
15 OC
1-2 marines (make more if a rush is coming)
tech lab
2nd barracks
@ 100 gas, Factory
@ 50 gas, pre-build reactor on the 2nd barracks
@ 100% factory & 100% reactor, lift factory and put it on reactor core
2nd tech lab on 2nd barracks
Pump marauder from 2 rax, pump hellion from reactor factory

Attack when you have either 4 hellions or 6 hellions. Depending on what opponent is getting and how effective your attack is, you can either expand or tech to starport (e.g. if you see mass roach then get banshee, if you see hydra then get infernal pre-igniter upgrade, if you see mutas switch factory onto a tech lab and get armory for thors, if you see mass spine crawler then expand, etc.)

This seems to be very effective on maps with a hard-to-defend nat, i.e. scrap station, desert oasis, to a lesser extent kulas ravine. If zerg did an FE, this attack will come before mutas if they went spire, and will come right as they begin hydra production if they went hydra den.


with patch 8 marauder changes I'm not sure how well this works now, if at all


I think the nerf did not change the Terran marauder gameplay much. Your concussion shells are one research away at the tech lab.

Btw, I want to post this strategy --> a simple one but no one seems to be trying it out. Maybe its crappy and I didn't know but can the pros please humor me?? XD

[b]Early game: Marine Marauder (more marauder than marines in 3:1 ratio). Then build ebay for fast inf upgrades. Get stim and concussion.

Mid game: Starport and Medivacs. Get medivac and starport reactor upgrades. Get vikings too if situation requires.

Late game: Vikings, Ravens, and Battlecruisers (if you get this far. Though if you did you probably want to go more MMMV instead). Build armory for ship upgrades[/b]

Notice that this build skipped the mech stuff altogether? This allows you to mass marauders much faster without bothering to build expensive factories and upgrade faster by giving more incentive to build ebay.

Another plus point is that you can potentially get a lot of vikings for antiair if you need them.

But I think this build won't win against a Terran mirror with tanks. Mainly against Z and P.


I'm the King Of Nerds
innoby
Profile Joined April 2010
Ireland42 Posts
April 23 2010 03:04 GMT
#111
I only have one build I am willing to share, and that is my "BASIC" ZvZ build...

The start is pretty typical 13 Pool

Here is where it gets interesting, build to 16 drones then build an OL. The OL should START either just before or just after you start your queen.

You will notice at this point that you have 150 mins left, Either save for an FE meaning OR build a roach den.

Build 2 extractors AFTER pool pops, fill up and mine gas as normal.

Build drones with all "natural" (as in not queen spawned larva) until the queen larva pops... By this time you should have enough mins to build 4 drones + start speed upgrade.

This provides enough min stockpile that one can either go roaches (less viable now) or start an FE, while still keeping the option of massing lings open...

The gas really isn't much faster than the one gas spawn builds, the 2 gas catches up really fast...

This isn't much of an over all strategy just an equilized opener, allowing you to improve your econ without sacrificing too much of an army...

Additional Notes:

On close placement maps just 10 pool ZvZ it's easier, and you won't get 6pool gayed and not know it's comming because your OL is too slow. Best to just assume that's what's gonna happen. On Scrap station ALWAYS ALWAYS FE, unless you go mass roaches to their lings....
Zerg macro is not OP its Zerg Macro.
NeWnAr
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore231 Posts
April 26 2010 06:00 GMT
#112
I've posted this on SC Armory and it has worked well with me. But I just wanna check again.

May seem more post-like than guide-like.

I've realised that the best start possible for Zerg as of patch 9 is to go for early roach, fast expansion and go muta/roach combi ASAP. This build needs alotta gas, so it's prone to ZvZ if the enemy goes 9-pool but otherwise it's ok. You'll most likely be going 11/12-pool and RW and Lair at about the time you start opening your 1st expansion. The requites are that you WILL need to expand, creep and spawn larva very spontaneously. I mean as in spawning an extra queen just for laying tumors by your 2nd base is up and running. Get speedlings as soon as the pool comes, then research everything except melee at your evol chamber.

When you get your 3rd expansion, go for spire immediately. Do every research for roaches ASAP, mix your roaches and speedlings early on and MAKE SURE YOU FIGHT EVERY BATTLE ON CREEP. Don't get out of creep cause then you'll get seriously pwned. Especially by the notorious terran 3M-combi. On creep, your roaches are fast, can regen almost like they have the 3rd upgrade when burrowed and their fast burrowing speed can cover up one of their major weaknesses-slow attack speed. I call this burrow-striking. You move towards the enemy group, yes, while they are still shooting at you. You won't die because of the creep's regen and roaches' holy shit WTF hp. When your front line starts to get yellow, burrow and carry on until your burrowed roaches have got the entire enemy surrounded, then unburrow, the roaches auto-attack once, then before the faster enemy units can out-gun your roaches, burrow and unburrow immediately to sort of cancel your attack delay. Burrow and unburrow again, attack, burrow and unburrow, attack and so on... This is extremely useful for early enemy groups who do not yet have detection. It's still ok if they do cause as I said, regen with creep is just sick.

In case of ZvP and those pesky observers, as soon as you get your first batch of mutas get a few overseers and go observer hunting, remember to keep a few with your economy and roach army though, you don't know when the dark templars and ghosts or banshees come hunting. Right now you should have at least 3 expansions, a few little battles won if it's a 1v1, at least one enemy gg-ed if it's a 4-man free-for-all, a third of the map creeped and your tumors constantly being destroyed but keep spawning them. Securing a queen for the task is really important as although it costs little for a tumor but it involves moving around the map but your hatchery queens are too busy spawning larvae if you're playing right. Basically you don't want to get your economy to get involved with any dying.

Upgrade your flyers constantly then go for your 3rd expansion caue your main's out, infestation pits and a hive, these aren't so important but you want to end the game with your broodlords. Right now your army of roaches, some speedlings and large group of mutas. Nothing beats this combi. Trust me. Look at how this works, mutas can be countered by many anti-air like vikings, carriers, BCs, Thors(not marines, if you have upgraded your flyer attacks as told, you'll be picking 'em off by the dozen due to the glaives) and pheonixes. However many of these are also ground hitters other than the pheonix(which you can own cause you totally outnumber them and they don't have overpower no more). If you use your roaches and speedlings(or cracklings now) effectively to totally kick the shit out of their ground troops, vikings will transform, BCs and Carriers will change their targets to the meatier roaches and thors will waste their shots on eliminating roaches and zerglings. If you want a little bit of novelty here use some infestors and spawn a ton of marines to add to the confusion. Or banelings to seriously pwn the buildings in the way. Whatever you do, your mutas WILL be spared because of the simple fact that roaches simply deal too much damage and are too thick-skinned to be ignored.
Live For the Swarm!
Darkn3ss
Profile Joined November 2009
United States717 Posts
April 26 2010 16:03 GMT
#113
On April 23 2010 12:04 innoby wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I only have one build I am willing to share, and that is my "BASIC" ZvZ build...

The start is pretty typical 13 Pool

Here is where it gets interesting, build to 16 drones then build an OL. The OL should START either just before or just after you start your queen.

You will notice at this point that you have 150 mins left, Either save for an FE meaning OR build a roach den.

Build 2 extractors AFTER pool pops, fill up and mine gas as normal.

Build drones with all "natural" (as in not queen spawned larva) until the queen larva pops... By this time you should have enough mins to build 4 drones + start speed upgrade.

This provides enough min stockpile that one can either go roaches (less viable now) or start an FE, while still keeping the option of massing lings open...

The gas really isn't much faster than the one gas spawn builds, the 2 gas catches up really fast...

This isn't much of an over all strategy just an equilized opener, allowing you to improve your econ without sacrificing too much of an army...

Additional Notes:

On close placement maps just 10 pool ZvZ it's easier, and you won't get 6pool gayed and not know it's comming because your OL is too slow. Best to just assume that's what's gonna happen. On Scrap station ALWAYS ALWAYS FE, unless you go mass roaches to their lings....


My build pwns ur build! ^^
Dont quote me boy, cuz I aint saying shhh...
Prophecy3
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada223 Posts
April 27 2010 20:23 GMT
#114
@NeWnAr I play Terran, and against a strong marine/tank army with lots of viking support, this build would have alot of trouble, because you're assuming that a terran player isn't going to be creeping your 2nd expansion with tanks. I've found that if you throw 70/30 split marines/marauders with even a couple tanks can really turn the tide of a battle.
Ignorance is Bliss? Indifferance is Atrocity.
mrlie3
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada350 Posts
May 09 2010 13:18 GMT
#115
Please try my Ghost Build for TvZ!

Link Here
Crimson @ Clan CORE | ESFI World Translator
NeWnAr
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore231 Posts
May 10 2010 05:54 GMT
#116
@Prophecy3

True, this build is still vulnerable to some specific units like mass vikings or pheonixes now that they are so strong. But it'll do good if you'd apply the unit ratios well and scout as much as your enemy does. I'm thinking of roach corrupters now that corrupters have the new ability to support roaches on the ground against heavy hitters like thors and possibly colossi. Also corrupters are not that vulnerable to vikings. But of course it would mean air comes out later than normal and thus be very vulnerable to banshees and other AtG like void rays, but I guess mutas could sustain early on then quickly tech switch to currputers.
Live For the Swarm!
DeeD
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden88 Posts
May 10 2010 21:41 GMT
#117
I came up with a build, not sure how to optimize it though so I thought I'd come here for your help

This would be a ZvT build primarily on scrapstation (or any other map with close spawning). The idea is to go blings, tech to lair fast and bling drop T's mineral lines as fast as possible without making it an all-in build.
Chro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States240 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-12 00:36:02
May 12 2010 00:05 GMT
#118
Just joined so i can't make my own thread for this build but i think it's a very solid terran opening. It revolves around getting ~6-7 marines and 2 siege tanks with siege mode at the 6 minute mark. At that point you can either expand and siege up on defense or attack and start containing. Always use mule at OC.

8 Ref (On completion only put in 2 scv)
10 Depot
12 Rax (As soon as the rax starts put 3rd into gas)
15 OC and Factory. Start making marines
16 Ref
17 Depot
19 Tech lab on factory
20 Siege Tanks & Siege Mode
25/26 Depot


6:10~6:20 you should have 2 tanks and 6 marines to either attack or defend with.

There are 3 spots where you will be delayed in SCV production
9th SCV ~5 seconds
11th SCV ~2 seconds
13th SCV ~3 seconds

It takes 12 seconds to make one SCV so you're behind by one scv or so. Based on what you scout you can pretty much switch to anything. Its pretty versatile. Sometime i'll tech vikings if there are void rays with 6 marines to hold them off at the start. My favorite is throwing on 2 tech labs on the rax and switch to murader. I'm sure this can be modded for quick banshees or anything gas intensive.
Equalizer
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada115 Posts
May 12 2010 02:03 GMT
#119
@Chro
I can't see how you would be able to handle any sort of early aggression without taking serious damage or loosing due to the slow barracks and the fact that you commit to a tech build when you build your 8 ref at which point you have no clue what your opponent is doing. Also your opponent knows your teching as soon has his scout enters your base.

Here are the situations where I think this build would be in big trouble:
vs Terran
-fast reapers
vs Protoss
-proxy gate or cannons
vs Zerg
-fast lings or fast baneling bust
The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it.
Chro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States240 Posts
May 12 2010 02:47 GMT
#120
@Equalizer

Its pretty much identical to the 10sup,12 rax, 13 ref builds. Handle early aggression like you would on those. The rax comes down a little (5 seconds or so) later than a normal build. So its not a 'late' rax by any means. You can bunker down if need be. The lost econ from building your ref first is spread out between the times of getting your SCVs later. If they see your ref and start to apply early aggression just put all the SCVs on minerals. You're going to get that refinery eventually.

I almost see no reason to not go this build because you can get your factory immediately.
Latham
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
9560 Posts
May 14 2010 12:33 GMT
#121
Hi! I admit I haven't read all of the 6 pages before me, so if this is a repost please forgive me!

Could you guys try out the Terran 1/1/1 build vs P/Z?
It's 1 rax with reactor for rines, 1 factory with techlab for tanks (without siege!) and 1 starport for ravens/banshees.
You move out at the 9th minute mark with about 16-17 marines 4 tanks and 1 raven/1 banshee with another on the way. Your food should be around 70. Raven is for defence drone or turrets, don't get siege or cloak.

Opening is standard 9 supply, 11 rax wallin. 14 gas 15 Orbital and from there on just pump units and don't forget depots. Add second gas when you please (obviously before the push).
For the curse of life is the curse of want. PC = https://be.pcpartpicker.com/list/4JknvV
wonksaggin
Profile Joined March 2010
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-15 12:27:01
May 15 2010 10:29 GMT
#122
TvZ Reaper opening into Marauder Marine Raven

(The rationale behind this build is simple: Marauders for slow, Marines for DPS, and Ravens for support mainly using their PDD against Hydras. Hunter Seeker Missles are also used in conjunction with the Marauder's slow grenades.

Standard opening:
10 Depot
12 Rax
13 Gas
15 Marine + Orbital Command

From here:
- Add Techlab
-2nd CC
-Reaper nitro pack (optional)
-Reaper
-2nd rax + 2nd gas
-2nd Tech Lab
-Pump Reapers and Harrass until you see Lair Tech
-Pump out a Marines for Natural support + Bunker
-Factory
-x2 Starports
-Reactor Core on Factory + Add additional 2 Barracks
-Lift and Swap Starports with Tech Labs from first two Barracks
-x2 Banshees for harass/scout
-x3 TechLabs on Barracks and 1 Reactor Core

From there pump Marauders + Marines and Ravens. (Initially you want to be doing as much harassment early on as possible and keeping your Reapers alive is absolutely beneficial as you can scout what tech path zerg is taking) With your x2 Starports you can pump out Valkyries if the Zerg decides to tech to Mutalisk. Add additional Barracks as needed. Have a tad bit more Reactor cores if they go heavy Hydra. If they go heavy roach have more Tech Labs than Reactor Cores.

Heres a brief version of the build: 1 rax TL FE into 2 rax reaper harass opening -> 2 starport swap and add barracks. pump MM.
risk.nuke
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden2825 Posts
May 16 2010 14:30 GMT
#123
PvZ "Phoenixes" my standard build including modifications for baneling rush

Standard
Open with 2 gateways (blocking the entrance)
Build the first zealot as fast as you can to protect against zerglings then keep building 2 more, when you have 3 you attack/scout for a fast expansion

Build 1 robotics facility(first) and 1 stargate(second)
Build a swift immortal to counter against roaches
Then keep pumping out Immortals and phoenixes (Chrono-Boost on stargate)
Keep building zealots to create the spine of your army

When you have zealots, 3 immortals and 4-5 phoenixes you attack,
The phoenixes will be able to beat fast mutalisks,
if he don't have any air use the phoenixes to lift up his units and let your zealots and immortals clear spinecrawlers and defenders who will be outnumbered it's pretty easy and it's GG

The only way a zerg can beat immortals zealots and phoenixes is a fast expansion and mass hydras, this is countered by the early 3 zealot attack on the expansion

The biggest threat to this tactic is early banelings, if he build banelings you will have to macro/sacrefice zealots to avoid all of your zealots gets taken out, with my build you should have 4-5 zealots when this happens so if you sacrifice 1 or 2 the remaining will still be sufficient to hold the chokepoint.
If he does this and you survive the initial wave, build an additional gateway, and build stalkers to assist your zealots. then you counter-attack and be agressive, build a robotics facility and get immortals, also tech the speed upgrade for zealots to increase you advantage over him, and it's GG

I know im not beeing very specific but i like to think of this not as a strategy but as a standard build.
Neo.G Soulkey, Best, firebathero. // http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 01:23:56
May 19 2010 01:22 GMT
#124
--- Nuked ---
Master Shaman
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States57 Posts
May 22 2010 16:18 GMT
#125
You go protoss, and this is a variant of the stove build

pylon on 8

Gateway and assimilator on 9

cybercore at 10, then second pylon before next probe while the core is building

At 13, stargate, then pump probes until you can build a void ray

Use the void ray to deny expos and/or harass

While the void ray is heading towards you opponent, build a twilight council

Then a Dark shrine as soon as you can, and drop another gate

Get a DT to keep denying expos, and drop a fleet beacon

Now, get YO MAMASHIP and win
prowtoss2142
Profile Joined May 2010
United States7 Posts
May 25 2010 01:18 GMT
#126
Okay, this actually is my very first post on this forum, (Not counting the one I posted on the commandments) and I found this information very useful, especially since most of the more recent posts are for protoss users, which I am, as stated by my name. So, great job guys, I might write some down and try them out, and this must be another topic, but just one quick question: When Exactly does Starcraft 2 come out in the United States? (Sorry, it was a lot easier asking right here since the question just popped into my head)
The Protoss shall prevail over all others...
SurtiC
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada43 Posts
May 25 2010 03:03 GMT
#127
Protoss 1/1/1 Build

Purpose: This is an all purpose build, can be used to counter Terran Mech (Thor, Hellion,Tank, Marines)

Build Order:

10 Pylon
10 Gateway
~13 Gas (when Gate is half done)
16 Cybernetics Core (Research Warp Gate)
~17 ( Gas ASAP)
17 Pylon ( Pylon ASAP)
21 Robo Facility
23 Gateway
23 Pylon
~ 26-27 Stargate

Build Order Clarification

Be sure to wall in with buildings and hide the stargate.

Build approximately 3 zealots 2 stalkers and immortal before your void rays

Unit composition before push should be roughly 3-4 zealots 3 stalkers, 2 immortals, 2 voidrays


I am still working this build out and i think because of my skill level, i can not accurately execute it, although it is successful sometimes. Could someone try it out??

Thanks.




Master Shaman
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States57 Posts
May 29 2010 01:05 GMT
#128
On May 25 2010 10:18 prowtoss2142 wrote:
Okay, this actually is my very first post on this forum, (Not counting the one I posted on the commandments) and I found this information very useful, especially since most of the more recent posts are for protoss users, which I am, as stated by my name. So, great job guys, I might write some down and try them out, and this must be another topic, but just one quick question: When Exactly does Starcraft 2 come out in the United States? (Sorry, it was a lot easier asking right here since the question just popped into my head)

I guess you missed the 25 or so closed threads, so I'll refrain from flaming you. SC2 comes out on July 27.

Now, get another post by making a thread about it.
eNyoron
Profile Joined September 2009
United States170 Posts
June 04 2010 04:12 GMT
#129
Fast Expand before Orbital: TvZ and TvP

9/10 Depot (build at ramp only if rax+CC isn't a complete wall-in)
12/19 Rax (at ramp)
16/19 CC (at ramp)
16/19 Marine
18/19 Orbital command
18/19 Marine
18/19 Supply depot
19/19 Refinery

From here the build becomes your own - you can go double gas to get a fast factory, grab an engie bay for a fast PF, lay down some more rax, etc etc.

One thing I highly reccomend is to move your rax at the bottom of your ramp, and build a bunker sandwhiched between your rax (now at the bottom of your ramp) and your command center (now positioned to mine at the natural). Ideally, this forces a runby to go all the way around the CC to go up your ramp to attack (all while taking potshots from the bunker). This may require additional buildings depending on the map and spawning location.

So far I've had complete success in using this build in 2v2s and 1v1s, except for when I fail with the wall and it isn't completely tight...
0sm9sm8sm... the beginning of the end.
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
June 07 2010 11:58 GMT
#130
Uhhh...so how do you intend to control and mine the natural before tanks, anyway? Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, because I think I have tried exhaustive means to 15CC or 1rax FE and lost most of the time.

True...your opponent won't be able to touch you anytime soon after he scouts that, but he can camp ur natural and maybe even get some towers up. And then he can also expand in peace.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
Salty
Profile Joined June 2010
United States90 Posts
June 11 2010 07:08 GMT
#131
Salty's Marine to Fast Ghost Build (vs. Zerg)

Purpose
I have found this build to be extremely adaptive and powerful against nearly any zerg units, especially during early and mid game pushes.

Pros: Very easy to defend with, little to nothing can counter it, unit-wise

Cons: It is susceptible to early zergling pushes if you do not wall off correctly, or if you allow your opponent to fast expand there is the potential to fall behind. A final note, there is quite a bit of macro AND micro (coming from an average player), managing your units and minerals was difficult for me, not to mention using ghost abilities like EMP and Sniper Round

The Wordy Build Idea
It is a very standard mech opener with a supply depot at 10 supply followed by a barracks. This is followed by a marine, 2 refineries, and an orbital command. Sometime after your orbital commant you make a second barracks(both refineries saturated at this point), and then a ghost academy. While your ghost academy is in the works, you make a tech lab on each of your barracks(depending on your spawning position, use your first barracks and first 2 suply depots to wall off, don't worry about leaving room for a tech lab, you can lift off later).

Begin building ghosts! Whenever you don't have enough gas, make a marine from one of your Barracks instead.

Eventually you should have enough for a third barracks, don't bother putting an attachment on this one. You should have the perfect income to create units at all three barracks, making ghosts when you have the gas, and marines when you don't, without queueing up more than 2 units per barracks.

- Do not research cloak until you are ready to push out. You will be spending ALL gas on Ghosts until you have a comfortable army, and your energy will be used for Sniper Round anyway. Use your marines as a damage soak and keep your ghosts at a range.

- Once you are ready to move out (I found 3-6 ghosts with marines works great), research cloak, and eat your heart out with Snipe spam.

A Very Adaptable Build
Depending on how many SCVs you made, you should have a comfortable amount of extra minerals after 5 or 6 minutes. From here you can do numerous things:


#1. Build an Engineering bay. This is useful no matter what your zerg opponent has because of the infantry upgrades.

#2 a. Build a Reactor on your third barracks. Effectively making a fourth barracks to push our marines as fast as possible.
#2 b. Tech Stimpack and bonus health for your marines

#3 a. Create a second command center, Expand to your natural and put up two more refineries.
#3 b. build a tech lab on your third barracks. With your two new refineries you should have exactly the right amount of income to spawn ghosts out of all three barracks.

#4 a. Build a factory, giving you access to nukes.
#4 b. Build a starport, giving you access to either medivacs (to assist marines, #2), OR giving your access to ravens(helpful for #3 to scout for burrowed units or hunter seeker missile down overseers)



Counters to Salty's Ghost Build, and how to counter a counter of Salty's Ghost build...yeah:

Mass Mutalisks - If a zerg player goes for fast mutalisks, you could be in trouble just because you can't micro sniper round effectively against large armies. #1 will give you access to turrets for defending, and #2 can hold mutalisk fire while your ghosts deal heavy damage from further back.

overseers - Obviously, they are cheap, fairly fast observers. However, they have 200 health. A few well placed sniper rounds easily takes out one, along with a chuck of the zerg supply. If you are having trouble with overseers then its probably best to go #2 again, so you can soak damage while snipers focus overseers.

Mass Speedlings - not a very big problem at all. Once you reach that magic ghost number, you will be able to take on an extremely large zergling army without taking more than a few hits.

roaches - Probably the most dangerout counter to a heavy ghost build. Like all the other zerg units they are controllable in small numbers. You really have to watch out for burrow and especially movement burrow. If you see any units using burrow, it's in your best interest to pull back, make a couple turrets for visibility, and start #4 b.

Expansions - this is probably your biggest weakness since a large unit count can take out your ghosts. Use stealth to scout, harass worker lines, and nuke (#4 a.) to throw your opponent off his macro game.

Ultralisks and Brood Lords - Both units are so late in the game that you should have plenty of energy, ghosts, and tech upgrades to deal with these. Sniper Round can anihilate any biological unit with enough hits on the target.

The detailed build order
Like I said, I am not some magical 300 APM machine, but here is my specific build order and time.

Time Supply Production
0:43 10 Supply Depot
1:06 11 Barracks
1:20 12 Refinery
1:29 12 Refinery (saturate both refineries as soon as they finish)
1:49 13 Marine (for defense)
1:50 14 Supply Depot (this is a bit early, but is essential for a wall off)
2:09 14 Orbital Command
2:34 14 Barracks
3:08 17 Ghost Academy
3:16 17 Tech Lab
3:18 17 Tech Lab
3:41 18 Ghost
4:50 29 Supply Depot
5:13 32 Barracks (used for extra minerals on marines, build a reactor/tech lab as needed)
5:58 37 Supply Depot

Again, in between all of this you should be producing SCVs, ghosts, and marines {when you dont have the gas for ghosts}.



And finally, a video of the build. This was one of my earlier sloppy versions, but it gives you a general idea. I plan on posting any replays I can as soon as the beta comes back up. If you can test this out and leave feedback I would greatly appreciate it.
Needs more salt.
SpiderWaffle
Profile Joined December 2008
United States125 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-15 10:43:13
June 14 2010 07:00 GMT
#132
Spider-Waffle's TvZ early expand into heavy harass.

Executive summary
The purpose of this build is to keep up economically with the zerg while going into heavy harass and still being safe against early pressure. I works best on maps with islands or easy to defend naturals such as scrap yard, desert oasis, and steppes of war. Should not try on hard to defend maps like blistering sands.

The normal build orders

-against roach
11 forward rax
11 depot
11 refinery
12 marine
14 OC
15 CC
16 factory
16 refinery
18 tech lab on barracks
19 starport
20 factory
20 ebay
21 tech lab on barracks

-against muta
11 forward rax
11 depot
11 refinery
12 marine
14 OC
15 CC
16 factory
16 refinery
18 tech lab on barracks
19 armory
20 starport
20 ebay

Details
You should send out an SCV at 9 to build the forward rax. After rax is finished use that SCV to scout. Put 2 SCVs on gas asap. Rally marine to his natural, if you scout an early hatch, build a bunker and some more marines, number depends on how early his pool is. After scouted no hatch or bunker rushing his nat, lift off rax and land at your choke. Keep SCV alive as long as possible to scout for bling nest. As soon as OC is finished make a mule. Make CC in your main base as close to your nearest island as possible or use it to complete wall if he's rushing/bling busting. After you start CC put another SCV on gas. Use factory to complete wall. Put 3 SCVs on second gas ASAP. Scan his main when your factory is almost complete, this is where you decide to build armory or starport. If he makes a roach warren get a starport, if he makes lair and no roach warren get a armory, if he gets a roach warren and a lair you can decide if you want thor-ship or banshee, if thor-ship get armor, if banshee get starport. Switch rax with factory and build a tank and then siege if he's getting roaches. If he's getting muta get thor as soon as armory finishes, build 1 turret next to main CC near gas and minerals, 1 turret at your choke, 3 turrets around your island CC, and use thor to defend against muta. If he's muta are especially early get 2-3 turrets around your main CC. Make both refineries at your expo as soon as you can and continue to make mules at your expo. Make planetary fortress at your island after it's made about 5 SCVs. If he's getting muta build med-evac asap and drop thor as soon as possible. Get at least 2 bashees and cloak before trying to harass. Don't lose banshees, repair them then after they're scouted and continue to build them up. 3 cloaked banshees should be able to take out his 3rd expo before he can react unless he has overseer and defenses ready. Try to shut down his expos early with banshees before he can make spores. Continue with building mech, and getting mech upgrades. When you have enough tanks build CC at your Choke and expand to natural. Stop with banshee production after getting 3rd and switch to viking. He shouldn't be able to kill your planetary fortress if you mass repair it, drop a thor over there if your really worried. Always keep at least 1 tank in your main for nyduses/drops and make depots in your main to fully scouted against nyduses. If he tries to expand too much push out otherwise play defensive and try to build up your mech army. Scout for brood lord tech and make tons of vikings if he's close.
http://students.washington.edu/blakep/SCBW/replays/
peteyd
Profile Joined June 2010
United States3 Posts
June 17 2010 05:21 GMT
#133
--- Nuked ---
teemh
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada120 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-25 17:02:19
June 23 2010 23:35 GMT
#134
removed.
nonbot
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1 Post
Last Edited: 2010-07-12 09:51:29
July 11 2010 03:22 GMT
#135
NeWnAr
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore231 Posts
July 15 2010 07:51 GMT
#136
Zerg one-basing wall-in strategy

Wall-in with inexpensive evolution chambers and a bunch of spine crawlers behind. Get at least 3 queens to defend(transfusion) and spawn larvae and start to mass produce banelings. Tech to lair quick, upgrade everything that has to do with banelings(1 melee,1 carapace, hooks), and get a nydus network. Get one overseer, and find a sweetspot in the enemy's base where you can bust ur nydus worm out. Works great on maps which have a large main base area. Most likely this early into the game they wouldn'tve seen the entire plateau. Don't let them see ur overseer of course, then start loading into the network as the worm is digging. Unload and gg.

The trick is to get lair fast. 6-pool so that if the enemy comes in to check, they will expect an early push so they will turtle. It's a true bluff. You are getting the pool extra early, but not for the reasons they think. This will buy you time for ur lair. With lair, you can excrete creep using an ovie on your chokepoint so you don't need the queen to slowly tumour the creep there. Thus you can wall-in fast and then fill up the creep gap for ur queens' highway using a tumour or more ovies. While walling-in get ur baneling nest and start building the spine crawler wall. This is the most vulnerable time in this build as you have nothing at all but drones and queens, maybe 4 lings. Don't upgrade lings speed! Use transfusion to buy some time if need be, but trust that 3/4 spine crawlers will ward off any early push by any race, especially with evo chambers blocking the front and queens transfusing from the back. After this, just mass those banelings, upgrade everything together(melee, carapace, hooks), deny scout using queens(you should have 5 now). Remember to tech hide ur baneling nest to somewhere very discrete. Same for ur nydus network. A nice trick is to leave one drone outside and hide in some corner before walling off, and make a hole in your wall by moving a spine crawler out. build the nydus outside your base by using the aforementioned creep excretion method and move ur banelings there in one shot. It would be a good idea to gain control of several Zel Naga twrs using zerglings if you're doing this cause if detected this will blow your cover and spell disaster.

Then it's a mighty show of baneling destruction and gg.
Live For the Swarm!
ResJudicata
Profile Joined July 2010
United States8 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-17 03:53:19
July 17 2010 03:27 GMT
#137
ZvT Fast Expo into Muta/Ling (And only on certain maps)

10 - Double Gas Cancel to hit 12
12 - Overlord
12 - Hatch
14- Pool
16 - Overlord
18-20 - Double Queen
-With queen at expo, put down creep so it covers natural's choke point
-put down 5 spine crawlers at choke (this can be done by the 6:15 mark)
-Get 2 More Queens (also a good idea at this point to sacrifice Overlord to see what Terran is getting)
-Baneling Nest
-Upgrade Lair, put down a 3rd Hatch for mineral dump to build Lings
-Upgrade Ling speed, Baneling Speed
-Mass Lings/Banelings/Muta for a hit at the 12 minute mark.

I've only started to use it and I'm not that great of a player, so I'm sure there are ways to make it even better.

Why Spine > Ling? Ling takes up a lot of larvae. This build is about maxing out macro early for the timing push
What about Reaver/Banshee/Viking Harass? 4 Queens is enough to easily deal with it. You will have the energy to spam creep and transfuse.
What about Siege Tank Push? Use overlords to give you warning (I think they can do it at the 8 minute mark), when he comes hatch lings and 4 queens can take out the force.
awang0830
Profile Joined July 2010
83 Posts
July 25 2010 10:59 GMT
#138
hi I was wondering if someone can try a blink-stalker build with hallucinated phoenix to go right into the enemy's base?

this build would be faster and probably more effective than having to make robo for the observer
i guess you can just do 3-gate twilight council researching blink and hallucination at the same time for a timing push from the back of enemy's base while making proxy pylon for reinforcements?

its cheaper than robo + observer and requires less time to tech, just gotta be careful of them roaches...

though with this build you can have a complete wall-in making it easier to defend.
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