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Hey,
I'm not quite sure if im not get spammed into the ground by "everyone knows that!"-posts but I'm gonna try anyways :D
When I looked at this "Upgrades Terran never uses"-Thread I thought like "oh my god, raven skills can be boosted so niceley" so I just made it a massing raven tactic.
So far I mainly used it for Island expansion maps such as Desert Oasis, Scrap Station and LT (best: air close posi) with short air ways to base.
BO is pretty much standard - 10 Depot, 12 Rax, 13 Gas, around 16 CC and Fac when 100 gas is there, then second gas.
Then adding a starport as soon as possible with a techlab to build a first raven imidiatly. Depending on how aggressive the enemy seems I add more or less Marines (with a second rax build in the meantime as Ravens are cheap in minerals) and a hellion for scouting purposes.
I stay with these buildings pretty much and add an early ebay. Asap adding +25 Energy for Raven so it finishes short before second Raven pops out. Around that time I also build an expansion for Island. When there are 2-3 Ravens I get building armor upgrade.
The moment the second raven pops out, the first one has almost 100 Energy so I fly to zerg eco and drop 3 turrets in. When Building Armor finishes, the turrets become extremely strong as they are almost invincible to Zerglings and Queens so he need to moves in a lot of Hydras so I go in a second time when it's finished. One Turret defeats a hydra easily so with range upgrade the become really annoying even with hydras.
When second raven go comes, it's easy to have enough minerals and an almost running island expansion so one can pump lots of marine from several rax and add one or two starports for more ravens. The Zerg's army count and economy suffers all the time, it often happens that when the marines move out when there are approx 5-6 Ravens he just dies to them when he did not scout properly and responded with banelings.
As far as I experienced this strategy, the main problem seemed mutalisks but then he becomes very vulnerable to the Marines as he looses alot of Gas and it's easy to protect all of your bases with missile turrets.
However, the tactic relies heavily on not loosing many Ravens so you can have like 15-20 later with all available techs. Other than Banshees its much easier to protect them and harass effectively since the Turrets they drop don't require Ravens to be at the enemy base for more than a very few seconds. Plus they can use occasional Defense drone drops to escape although it's annoying to loose 100-200 energy.
Later one ofc always has the choice of teching for HSM.
With duration upgrade both drone and turret last 4 minutes so its easy to get map controll when you have at least more then ten ravens.
Big plus is that you can play it extremely cost efficiently because you often don't loose more than the turrets which don't cost you any ressources.
Bad thing is that turrets really get countered by defense upgrades over time as they cannot upgrade damage as far as I know (didn't try ship weapons yet? Though I think it won't get the bonus as it is upgraded individually and as a building in regards of armor)
Compared to banshees I think that they are much more effective as most Zerg already know how to prepare against early banshee harass and it often does not have alot of success anymore plus they become so bad in open combat in later game stages. Ravens however are really versatile plus kinda surprising for most zergs. They guess like "oh he's gonna fast air" so he goes for eary hydras and has trouble with killing towers all the time.
Replays:
Here is one replay against 1300 Platinum Zerg (yes I know its not high enough to proof it working against really good players but it really works kinda easy)
[url blocked]
This one is against some other platinum zerg, don't remember his rating also it was one of my first attempt trying this so I kinda sucked :D
[url blocked]
Final note:
Do not play it against early spire, just switch for Thor build as you should scout it before building starport in best case (hellion for scouting).
If he plays alot of early roaches, banshees might be the unit of choice.
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banshees are good because you can usually snipe a queen or 2 and several drones. Even if you get really lucky w/ turret and they let you kill a bunch of drones, it's not going to be as much as banshee damage. Also if they baneling bust you, you're going to have problems so you're gonig to need a big wall.
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On April 21 2010 04:09 starcraft911 wrote:
banshees are good because you can usually snipe a queen or 2 and several drones. Even if you get really lucky w/ turret and they let you kill a bunch of drones, it's not going to be as much as banshee damage. Also if they baneling bust you, you're going to have problems so you're gonig to need a big wall.
I pretty much assumed that any terran will go for rax/fax wall as soon as he does not play mech.
The good thing about turrets - they last 3 minutes. He HAS to engage them or give up all the eco line. They don't have to run when 3 hydras and a queen come (apart from their obvious inability ;D). In the second wave of harass they actually can absolutely ignore the queen's presence because it will only do two damage per attack (2x1)
If you loose your turrets, all of Zergs success was to draw you energy on these units what usually costs him several units.
Actually I watched several Zergs evacuating their main bases already when there were like 20 towers in later stages of the match.
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watched maka's vods and he used hellion>banshee>expo>MMM + ravens transition quiet often, requires alot of multitasking and very good micro tho ;/
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On April 21 2010 04:13 lolreaper wrote:
watched maka's vods and he used hellion>banshee>expo>MMM + ravens transition quiet often, requires alot of multitasking and very good micro tho ;/
As I wrote, I'm not looking for adding some support ravens. I completely replace Banshees and make ravens the absolute main part for all stages of the game, with other units just making the clean up in the end.
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I'm too lazy to read that wall of text but, as a former terran player that switched to zerg after too much frustration with blizzard nerfing terran every patch, I can chip in on Ravens. I tried a few mass raven strategies before I called it quits with terran, but what I, and most assuredly everyone else noticed about them is that they're good if you can be aggressive with them, and poor if you're playing defensively. Reason being that seeker missles can't chase units for shit, but if you can force them into a corner or otherwise keep them still, they're absolutely fucking amazing. The other sorta nice thing is you can hold off a muta harrass even if the muta count is too big for turrets to handle. Of course, I was playing terran before the thor AA AOE patch, so I guess thors serve that purpose even better since they don't have to waste energy to repel mutas. Really though, I think seeker missles are in fact underused in general, I can tell you as a plat level zerg player that I've scarcely ever seen them used in games against me, despite my making tons of hydras(Hydras get blown the fuck up by SM).
I think Ravens probably will become a facet of the match-up as time goes on, and people discover builds that fully take advantage of the unique push timings they can present.
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how does the early game harass go against roaches? seems like the turrets would just get raped by like 2 roaches and then you're fucked because you've done no damage. In fact, in general this just sounds like it'd lose to roaches.
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On April 21 2010 04:20 jdr_ wrote:
I'm too lazy to read that wall of text but, as a former terran player that switched to zerg after too much frustration with blizzard nerfing terran every patch, I can chip in on Ravens. I tried a few mass raven strategies before I called it quits with terran, but what I, and most assuredly everyone else noticed about them is that they're good if you can be aggressive with them, and poor if you're playing defensively. Reason being that seeker missles can't chase units for shit, but if you can force them into a corner or otherwise keep them still, they're absolutely fucking amazing. The other sorta nice thing is you can hold off a muta harrass even if the muta count is too big for turrets to handle. Of course, I was playing terran before the thor AA AOE patch, so I guess thors serve that purpose even better since they don't have to waste energy to repel mutas. Really though, I think seeker missles are in fact underused in general, I can tell you as a plat level zerg player that I've scarcely ever seen them used in games against me, despite my making tons of hydras(Hydras get blown the fuck up by SM).
I think Ravens probably will become a facet of the match-up as time goes on, and people discover builds that fully take advantage of the unique push timings they can present.
Allright, short conclusion for you:
-> Ravens as harassing units using upgraded Automatic Turrets, kinda banshee replacement
-> Few focus on HSM although its a possibility later.
Agree on Ravens beeing useful and will be important in many strategies later.
On April 21 2010 04:23 Tropics wrote:
how does the early game harass go against roaches? seems like the turrets would just get raped by like 2 roaches and then you're fucked because you've done no damage. In fact, in general this just sounds like it'd lose to roaches.
Yes, Roaches are strong against it. Ofc there is the possiblity of just going for Banshees instead when you see him going for early roaches.
Zergs won't respond with roaches very often when they guess you to build a starport.
Roaches only have one armor anymore, they perform stronger than hydras but still will suffer as they only have 3 ranged compared to 6/7 of turrets.
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This seems like a very interesting strat, however how well does it stand up to early aggression? With the time upgrade and a few spare ravens you should theoretically be able to defend your base with a few turrets and a couple point defense drones around the mineral patches.
I like the idea of the "free" army since as long as the ravens survive your army doesn't wind up costing you anything. However, since the turrets occupy a 2x2 matrix on the playing field, have you had trouble getting to place the defenses on the ground when under attack if they weren't already in place?
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On April 21 2010 04:26 STS17 wrote:
This seems like a very interesting strat, however how well does it stand up to early aggression? With the time upgrade and a few spare ravens you should theoretically be able to defend your base with a few turrets and a couple point defense drones around the mineral patches.
I like the idea of the "free" army since as long as the ravens survive your army doesn't wind up costing you anything. However, since the turrets occupy a 2x2 matrix on the playing field, have you had trouble getting to place the defenses on the ground when under attack if they weren't already in place?
Yes, it sometimes is troubling to find enough space for them. At least you can place them on creep. Range 7 solves alot of it and even if not all can reach eco line, they still can be dropped close to important tech buildings so he will have to fight them.
Early agression with hydra is the biggest issue as you won't be able to defend it from behind your wall with range 5 marines. If he doesn't add banelings however, it is possible to hold with a quick response with marines and ravens combined.
Banelings/Zerglings allone is not hard to counter with normal Fax/Rax-block.
It's also really cool that you can block space with them.
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Are you winning in plat/high plat with this ? I ask because the first thing that comes to my mind, is that by doing this strategy the enemy could just steamroll into my base and kill me off. There won't be too much defense and automated turrets are static.
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First of all: amazingly inventive strategy. Even if it doesn't end up being the most effective in actual play-- I am blown away by the creativity of upgrades.
I also think your idea could be a solid way to counter late game broodlords. As the AutoTurret armor seems to hold up really well against broodlings.
Banelings would have ruined your day. Maybe you could go Hellion\Raven for the mineral dump and to better counter blings and hydras.
Seriously though I am just loving this strategy. Ravens were my favorite unit before this. Now I need to pick my jaw up off the floor.
EDIT: Also wanted to add that Day[9]s most recent dailies are about stragegy and BO creation. He calls it the "story" of your build. Which has some merit. So a beginning middle and end are necessary.
Ex:
Beginning: I build marines to hold off agression while I tech to Ravens.
Middle: I use heavy harassment with my AutoTurrets against the enemy.
End: ? -- So far it seems your ending is to push in hard with the marine ball.
I think if you take your awesome build into this context and work on it, and flesh it out against various match ups you will really only get stronger.
For more info check out Day9 daily #103 and tonights #104.
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@ Ganondorf
Yes, it does win games against strong Zergs.
Just dont ever ever ever play it when he goes fast spire, then just switch to mech/thors what is quite easy when you scout before starport.
Defending is not such a bad problem actually. First Hydras get cought in base because they have to clean up those turrets, he will loose several and not feel ready for attack. For second raven (moment of attack) you have to calculate 60s after first banshee would pop out and actually most players going fast banshee wait for a second or even third before they go.
So you can delay him and keep him in some kind of "defense loop", every time he thinks im strong enough to own you now, he has new turrets in base or will actually loose to the marines.
@roark
First of all, thank you very much 
Cool thing is that the marines have to be used very rarely, as I said just to steamroll him when zerg is weak or defend when he manages to pull out a counterattack.
If he does good and has enough ressources for having both a decent amount of hydras AND banelings he ofc has quite an advantage. However, those turrets can be very annoying to him as you will most likely have 7 range allready so they have 1 more than hydra.
In general, you better don't allow him massing up so strongly.
Right now I'm looking for good EU Zergs to crush this build with a respond out of any build besides fast Spire or mass early roach so I can test it
(Those two builds not included because it would mean changing the tactic, what does not allow to try it :D
-Changing tactic when having a clue whats going on based on scouting allowed ofc, wouldnt make much sense to test it else ^^)
On April 21 2010 06:03 roark wrote:
EDIT: Also wanted to add that Day[9]s most recent dailies are about stragegy and BO creation. He calls it the "story" of your build. Which has some merit. So a beginning middle and end are necessary.
Ex:
Beginning: I build marines to hold off agression while I tech to Ravens.
Middle: I use heavy harassment with my AutoTurrets against the enemy.
End: ? -- So far it seems your ending is to push in hard with the marine ball.
I think if you take your awesome build into this context and work on it, and flesh it out against various match ups you will really only get stronger.
For more info check out Day9 daily #103 and tonights #104.
Early: Go for normal save build just like banshees, so have a massive Wall In with Fac/Rax and a few marines to hold off Baneling, Speedling, Roach.
Middle: Raising autoturret-harassment, its important not to loose ravens so you can make the harass stronger and stronger with every go to keep zerg small. Adding expansions with bunker/marines is relatively easy due to the huge amounts of minerals you usually have.
End: Best case scenario is that you can depopulate his entire mainbase during the harassment or that he is just weak enough to be overrun by a massive marine push. If it is not that good, you should have an economic advantage that allows you to respond to his army composition.
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It's getting a bit late here so gonna watch the reps in the morning but from your description I am really looking forward to it. very inventive and shows that semi early ravens are viable(hopefully). Also liking the fact that you are researching the not so frequently used upgrades that are available to Terran.
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On April 21 2010 04:11 T33K3SS3LCH3N wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 04:09 starcraft911 wrote:
banshees are good because you can usually snipe a queen or 2 and several drones. Even if you get really lucky w/ turret and they let you kill a bunch of drones, it's not going to be as much as banshee damage. Also if they baneling bust you, you're going to have problems so you're gonig to need a big wall. I pretty much assumed that any terran will go for rax/fax wall as soon as he does not play mech. The good thing about turrets - they last 3 minutes. He HAS to engage them or give up all the eco line. They don't have to run when 3 hydras and a queen come (apart from their obvious inability ;D). In the second wave of harass they actually can absolutely ignore the queen's presence because it will only do two damage per attack (2x1) If you loose your turrets, all of Zergs success was to draw you energy on these units what usually costs him several units. Actually I watched several Zergs evacuating their main bases already when there were like 20 towers in later stages of the match.
I don't know if it will work this way, but on desert oasis you can kind drop below the mineral line on the ridge (the turrets) and have your ravens give vision so it will be unreachable but your turrets can still shoot. I think I'm going to test this out :D
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Got a try against Styggen. I told him its to test a certain BO and to play normal, unfortunatelly I didn't think he would go for Mutalisks without knowing what comes or having crucial scouting infomation ^^
Since he only wanted one try to get as much out of current ladder season as possible I tryed somewhat of a head-through-the-wall attempt in the knowledge that it would be hard to impossible, showed me once more how important it is not to loose your first two ravens.
Also, he did nice to prevent expanding by using overlord creep.
Then he went for roaches but as he sad only because he likes doing this against terra not as a specific counter.
Don't expect anything interesting as it was a certain kamikaze attempt the moment I decided to continue although there was a spire
[url blocked]
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Really clever idea - I'll check out the replays later. How does this fare on non-island expansion maps? Have you tried it vs zerg staying when you stay on 1 base?
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On April 21 2010 06:43 chausara wrote:
Really clever idea - I'll check out the replays later. How does this fare on non-island expansion maps? Have you tried it vs zerg staying when you stay on 1 base?
Yet I didnt even try exept for a few 2on2s on metalopolis (opponents too bad to rate this version of the tactic). It is way more risky in either case, non island expansions makes you so much more vulnerable. However it should be possible with alot of bunkers as you have the money anyways and building armor.
I did not try one base either although it might be possible. Yet I kinda used the expansion as a mineral dump and to get more ravens. It's so important to keep a high raven count later on so it would be vulnerable with only 1 base/2 gas.
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EDIT: Megaupload is working fine now.
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EPT
