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On April 21 2010 12:02 w_Ender_w wrote:
Please don't let this Raven play catch on. I can't stand Raven's, they are easily the strongest unit in the game. If a Terran player has Ravens and HSMs I can't win, flat out. Everything dies. I could have a 200 supply army and he has like a 50 supply one, and as long as three Ravens can launch HSMs in there, I lose my entire army. It's incredibly frustrating, especially on 2v2s on that stupid Twilight level, where it's nigh impossible to stop a Terran from getting them without cheesing. HSM is just so insanely strong and too easy to cast, if you ask me. Make it like storm, where atleast they have to click a spot on the ground and it'll harm his own units. I think I've lost ever single match where HSM's have come in to play. And before you say "just dodge them", that's not the answer every time. Sometimes you're forced to engage a force, and I shouldn't have to run to the other side of the map because the Terran player hit a single button. Nor is sending the targeted unit out of the group the answer most of the time either; the Terran players simple march the Ravens too close to the group to react and launch there.
If you fly\run the unit being targeted into his units, everyone dies. Sort of like sacrificing units to kill your super strong banelings early game.
That said, I hope this doesn't catch on either. I want it to be a secret.
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not happening...
if its viable it will spread and counter will get developed.
if not, well then its just too weak
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Yeah i know it will eventually.
Also to OP, I was thinking you could add in a medivac with SCVs on auto-repair. Might help you get a bit more time out of them.
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Yeah, it will. I'm just venting about how insanely strong it is, particularly in 2v2's on Twilight, since you can't really harass/kill the Terran before he can get it out unless you do some hardcore cheese.
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This strategy seems like it could be best used as a transition out of a planetary fortress fast expand into quadruple gas or something ridiculous like that. Engineering bay as part of your wall off, increased attack range and armor benefitting the fortress, a large number of marines with a few key turrets to hold off mutas and a couple of bunkered marauders if you see a roach push. Use the starports to build a couple of medivacs to escort your ravens (16 marines/2 medivacs does a good number against mutalisks. Easy to build banshees instead of ravens if you see mass roach play. Problems seem to be: you gotta be careful against nydus drops and you'll be lacking aggression early on. Worth testing.
One base raven harass just isn't going to do much as you'll just get out econned early game or run over with mass roaches or you'll lose your ravens to 3 mutas because you're too slow to run. And to top it all off you'll have zero map control.
Try not to focus on using the raven as a one unit gimmick and focus more on creating a versatile strategy that sets yourself up to utilize and maximize the ravens late game strength. You suggest an awful lot of set-up just so you can do auto-turret harass and because you theory crafted turrets being cost effective versus lings/hydralisks with the armor upgrade (ignoring that even a few roaches will ruin your day completely).
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This is really nice. Keep up the good work and make it viable 
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How close do you have to be to the target to fire the Seeker missile?
If you can simply shoot it at anything you can see regardless of range you might do a "scan the enemy worker line and then fire from outside his base" attack. No one watches their workers constantly and the missile might go unnoticed for zero risk and if you upgrade the duration to 20 seconds the range should be somewhat huge.
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I really hope something like this is viable, the raven is my favorite unit in SC2. One thing I can think of- if he tries to kill the auto turrets with hydras, then a PDD could help a lot. I wonder what the ideal ratio is of PDD/turret? would 2 turrets and a PDD be better than 4 turrets? I dunno, but it would be worth a shot. PDDs also block mutas and corruptors, and there's a good chance he might build those if he thinks you're going banshees.
oh and i agree with the guy above who suggested combining this with a PF fast expand.
if you're looking for an end-game strategy for this- how about a transition to banshees or battlecruisers? The zerg has 4 anti-air options, hydra muta corruptor and spore crawler, and ALL of them get countered by the PDD. It even blocks the queen's attack lol. With mass ravens your air units could be completely invincible.
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On April 21 2010 11:44 roark wrote:
The beauty of this still lies in the fact that ravens themselves are the ultimate "juke" or pump-fake.
They see starport, hell they even see a raven. Their first thought is not gonna be: "OH SNAP!11!! I need to counter turrets with super high armor!"
That just isn't how it will play out. They see the starport and air, and they start to couter air. All of a sudden they are up against a few PDD and mass turrets.
THIS IS HUGE! Even when they scout it, they have no idea. Especially if you harass early. I almost think a bit of early marauder, like just a few would be good too. That would prevent roaches possibly, letting you then switch into marines or hellions and ravens.
Relying solely on your opponent not having seen something coming, especially when that something is an inevitable outgrowth of what units and abilities do.
It's like saying, "You can just send 10 Overlords to their base! And they'll never think that there's a drop about to happen!" Yes, some people have forgotten that you can drop from Overlords. And yes, some people don't realize what Ravens can actually do, thinking of them only as Seeker Missile launchers.
But you can't rely on that. It'll last maybe 1 week. Because then people will be wise to your game, and you'll get owned.
It's much better if you make a solid build around this tactic. Something that relies on you keeping it a secret in-game until the last minute.
And switch it up every now and then. Turtle up and go for Banshees instead of Ravens all the time. They require different counters, so you'll confuse the Zerg if he's expecting one instead of the other.
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On April 21 2010 13:31 Rabiator wrote:
How close do you have to be to the target to fire the Seeker missile?
If you can simply shoot it at anything you can see regardless of range you might do a "scan the enemy worker line and then fire from outside his base" attack. No one watches their workers constantly and the missile might go unnoticed for zero risk and if you upgrade the duration to 20 seconds the range should be somewhat huge.
using HSM on workers seems like kind of a waste. It'll work, sure, but it's such an expensive spell, and it'll probably only kill about 6 workers. If you throw down a bunch of autoturrets instead you can not only kill all the workers(maybe) but also take down the hatchery.
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On April 21 2010 17:06 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 13:31 Rabiator wrote:
How close do you have to be to the target to fire the Seeker missile?
If you can simply shoot it at anything you can see regardless of range you might do a "scan the enemy worker line and then fire from outside his base" attack. No one watches their workers constantly and the missile might go unnoticed for zero risk and if you upgrade the duration to 20 seconds the range should be somewhat huge. using HSM on workers seems like kind of a waste. It'll work, sure, but it's such an expensive spell, and it'll probably only kill about 6 workers. If you throw down a bunch of autoturrets instead you can not only kill all the workers(maybe) but also take down the hatchery.
The autoturrets will work, but you
a) have to move in close with the Raven and endanger the unit itself,
b) are warning the enemy that his workers are in danger because the turrets dont insta-kill.
So I do think that using the missile on the workers is the better choice IF IT CAN BE FIRED FROM FAR AWAY, since two turrets cost almost the same AND you are endangering the vessel ... err Raven. If the saturation isnt really at its peak you can also decide not to shoot. One of the awesome advantages of the missile is the fact that it cant be shot down like the turrets; you have to avoid it and if you dont notice it you get hit.
Using a cloaked Ghost to scout might keep this trick from being noticed even more, since they dont make sounds as a scan does.
If you find out where the enemy is gathering his troops (or maybe where he prefers to morph in Banelings) you can assault these places from a safe distance as well then.
So to ask again: How close do you have to be to the target to fire the Seeker missile?
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when i watched ur replay.. i found that you are playing Tower Defense instead of Starcraft 2 lol
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On April 21 2010 18:03 Rabiator wrote:
So to ask again: How close do you have to be to the target to fire the Seeker missile?
Pretty close, as in you need to have the Raven almost in shooting range of corruptors and range-upgraded hydras. At least that's what I have experienced.
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PDD is overrated. It's basically a slightly better defensive matrix (+200hp) from SC1. It has enough energy for maybe 22 shots. Ideally, the PDD is shooting down high damage/bullet projectiles. On average, you'll get about +250 hp from it. It's decent, but nothing special.
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On April 21 2010 18:37 link0 wrote:
PDD is overrated. It's basically a slightly better defensive matrix (+200hp) from SC1. It has enough energy for maybe 22 shots. Ideally, the PDD is shooting down high damage/bullet projectiles. On average, you'll get about +250 hp from it. It's decent, but nothing special.
how is 250 hp not special? That basically means that 2 banshees which would have died, instead take no damage at all. or 2 PDD could completely protect a battlecruiser.
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Well the main thing is that Terran is always starved for gas. 200 gas would mean 2 extra banshees that would have died but actually have caused damage in return. I just rarely see the need for ravens if used only for PDD. Ofc, if you are also using them for detection and for HSM, it's entirely justified.
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true, 200 gas is a lot. But 1 raven could cast 2 PDD in a battle, which protects 4 banshees. You could also use it for an endless series of hit and run attacks- run in, cast a few PDD, and your banshees will have time to snipe the workers or hatchery without taking any losses. Rinse and repeat, and you'll get your money's worth.
The raven isn't worth it if the game is going to be decided in one big climactic battle, but it's great in long, protracted games.
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Its 200 Energy with 10Energy per Shot. Regenerating Energy may result in one or 2 Aditional Lasers in a long battle.
The Range is very small so every Antiairunit can Attack you.
BUT that Lasers save you one Raven, and thats why its not overrated since every single Raven you have make that Strategy better.
Dmg-Reduce(without Upgrades): Don´t know if PTD does work on all 4 AA Units.
Raven=140HP
Spore Crawler: 15x20=300HP = Two Ravens
Hydra:12x20=240HP=One Raven
Muta x20=180HP=One Raven
Corruptor 12x20=240HP=One Raven
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On April 21 2010 11:54 lim1017 wrote:
seems like a pretty cool idea, gonna give it a shot tonight. Do you favor the building armor upgrade or +1 range upgrade? i know get both but which 1 first.
When do you build the Ebay? my build going fast banshee is usually something like this, where would you throw in an Ebay? (im not at home atm so i cant view replay)
10 supply
11 refinery
12 racks
factory/orbital right after (i lose track of scv count)
refinery #2 during factory
Starport/supply
also might not fit exactly into this thread, but another idea may be to start off with banshees, then when the opponent responds with hydras or static def bring in a couple ravens /w point defense drone.
I usually add an ebay around the time while first raven is beeing built.
This banshee idea that has been posted a few times already really isn't that bad I guess since many will respond with hydras. if they respond with mutas however it's not that nice.
On April 21 2010 19:26 link0 wrote:
Well the main thing is that Terran is always starved for gas. 200 gas would mean 2 extra banshees that would have died but actually have caused damage in return. I just rarely see the need for ravens if used only for PDD. Ofc, if you are also using them for detection and for HSM, it's entirely justified.
As a banshee replacement their harassing strength growths with time and they are much harder to counter, it's not like build 3-4 sporecrawlers and ignore the banshees.
Those 200 gas can place 2 really strong turrets every time they move in and you don't have to worry about loosing them as long as they deal damage as well.
On April 21 2010 18:03 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 17:06 Luddite wrote:On April 21 2010 13:31 Rabiator wrote:
How close do you have to be to the target to fire the Seeker missile?
If you can simply shoot it at anything you can see regardless of range you might do a "scan the enemy worker line and then fire from outside his base" attack. No one watches their workers constantly and the missile might go unnoticed for zero risk and if you upgrade the duration to 20 seconds the range should be somewhat huge. using HSM on workers seems like kind of a waste. It'll work, sure, but it's such an expensive spell, and it'll probably only kill about 6 workers. If you throw down a bunch of autoturrets instead you can not only kill all the workers(maybe) but also take down the hatchery. The autoturrets will work, but you a) have to move in close with the Raven and endanger the unit itself, b) are warning the enemy that his workers are in danger because the turrets dont insta-kill. So I do think that using the missile on the workers is the better choice IF IT CAN BE FIRED FROM FAR AWAY, since two turrets cost almost the same AND you are endangering the vessel ... err Raven
Yes, it might cause a bit of trouble to his eco. But look at the costs, you could place 2-3 turrets instead. If the tactic goes well, you can force him to give up his main at this stage of the game by placing turrets everywhere in it.
Ofc the HSM tech is worth to be used for later big battles.
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I think HSM is the only way to stand a chance vs Mutas. They won´t get hurt, but they´ll keep running and running.
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EPT
