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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On December 05 2012 17:38 Fatam wrote:
we should have another map jam in ~5 days if we want to hold to a "once a month" schedule
edit - looking at some of those assymetric maps, it is a mindfuck to try and "read" them like you can so easily w/ normal maps. funny stuff.
yes. someone should organize it. i will talk to ScorpSCII.
and search for the asymmetric map challenge in case you missed tha.... edit: nvm. yes, it was great fun! someone should suggest asymmetric again!
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your Country52798 Posts
On December 05 2012 14:30 RFDaemoniac wrote:I'd be completely down to do an asymmetric map jam. Here's a Mapping Challenge from a year ago when they made asymmetrical maps for inspiration.
Oh god I remember that...
Very fun to make my map for that :o
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WIP- Please give feedback! Yes, that is an island half base next to the main.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xNiTD.jpg)
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On December 06 2012 15:53 lorestarcraft wrote:WIP- Please give feedback! Yes, that is an island half base next to the main. + Show Spoiler +
All right, here are my thoughts. I don't discuss the non-standard island half-bases or rich mineral bases, since there are some issues with more core map concepts that need to be addressed first.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Mzdjl.jpg)
The following addresses and elaborates on points made in the image above:
[1] There's only really one main attack path on this map. The two potential side paths are weird and clunky with the minerals and strip of high ground. Even if you could consider those side paths normally, we end up dealing with point 2.
[2] Once this base location is taken, there's no way to reasonably move an army through there, causing the flow of the map to really choke up and become a one-way path to your opponent via the middle. Then there's acquiring the base in the first place to take into consideration. The base is pretty well designed to never get taken, with the offensive high ground strip right beside it and the conveniently located watchtower to aid the aggressor. While making the base incredibly inaccessible to take alleviates the map flow issue to a minor degree, you're left with a problem of having a useless base. Make it more reasonable to take, however, and we're back to the map flow issue.
[3] This is an issue of terrain proportions. The defending army will get incredibly choked up trying to get into the third base area, while the attacker has a nice, open space with which to form a strong concave. This makes the base very hard to defend properly despite its close distance to the natural. I think some re-adjustment of the terrain in this area is in order.
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I agree to an extend with caustic though I do think that Terran could possibly benefit from taking the forward base in the centre as a third, especially when meching. Maybe Protoss in PvZ too with certain styles. While the third layout would favour a concave for the attacker, this also is a problem with daybreak and one could say it rewards map awareness since it simply forces you to already be in position before the attack actually hits
Another issue I believe is that Terran can (in WoL) just get a couple of reapers, dps down the rocks and then easily float an orbital over to take the island. Not sure if it's balanced or not, but it's something to note if you hadn't considered it.
Also, it looks like Terran can drop tanks onto the enemy island and shell at the mineral line.
Apart from that, angled overviews are hard to correctly judge. 70-90 degrees is best.
Also, with beta servers still down:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xE80zl.jpg)
It was originally going to be an assymetric map again but I decided to make it symmetric anyway. I might make the original assymetric version I had planned of it later. It's a HotS map so I believe the 2 width ramp is balanceable.
Lefix is probably going to sue me over the plagiarism of his vaunted Lefix ramps.
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Another issue I believe is that Terran can (in WoL) just get a couple of reapers, dps down the rocks and then easily float an orbital over to take the island. Not sure if it's balanced or not, but it's something to note if you hadn't considered it.
Probably not a big deal since it will take 2 reapers a very long time to kill rocks, and if they are busy just killing rocks then you have very little defense and no map presence (the main reason you get reapers) while this is happening.
Also, it looks like Terran can drop tanks onto the enemy island and shell at the mineral line.
This is more of an issue.
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A single reaper actually kills standard rocks faster than it takes to finish a CC and turn it into an orbital. You can just reaper expand essentially, start the CC, load 4 scvs, and then make it into an orbital on the island which should be already rock free when the CC is complete, you then have an easy to defend island expo with a normal ramp to defend.
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idk, it's not even a full base,
and the only reason reaper expand works is b/c you send your reaper(s) to the opponent's base and keep him there/keep map control by threatening worker harass. If your reaper is busy w/ rocks instead then you could easily take a lot of damage if they decide to put on pressure.
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I think opening reapers is such a specific thing with such specific purpose that just building reapers to take down those rocks would be counter productive. Especially since is it is a half base. It's something that is supposed to be different.
It looks like you can shell the minerals, but you really can't. I don't think you can hit the geyser either, but I will make sure you can't. as far as hitting buildings, toss or terran are most likely to need to put buildings there, but tanks vs toss are rarely used, and if dropped on that island to shell a pylon and a couple of gateways, all that supply is in a position where it can't defend anything at all. And terran will have bulidings there, but they also have tanks too. The defenders bonus in the mirror would be really high. Anyways, it's experimental.
As far as the attack route only being through the middle, it's kind of true, but unless someone holds both towers (which is hard to do for any length of time) you can actually move through either side of the middle without being spotted. And the secondary routes are perhaps clunky, but not really as clunky as some maps (Entombed). I will work on the army flow issues caustic pointed out. I tried to make the third be a little open since it is farther away from opponent that the natural, but i think I can open us the space around that base for the defenders army.
I will get it fixed up and see what you guys think!
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Here is the revamped third and middle. Tendrils mark the edges of the tower vision. Someone would have to control both towers to see all the paths. I think that would be hard to do, but idk. Still open suggestion on that.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HkiQz.jpg)
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Well, this is a personal preference, but the middle paths are still all 'connected', and you have to go throug that high ground to get to the other side. Lock it off with a huge siege line, there is no way around.
I do feel the layout of this map is developing into something unique
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a3wfrl.jpg)
notable features:
- inbase 6m1g natural expansion (no hyg at the moment)
- inbase natural expansion has backdoor rocks
- 2 width ramp (it's a hots map)
- gold bases
- 2 low ground semi island at the centre which leads to nothing and does no-where, it's only purpose is to be annoying with siege tanks and lock of certain paths as well as allowing colossi to retreat or stalkers to blink over. If you break the rocks you also have a cool watchtower.
- Lefix ramps.
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On December 07 2012 09:04 lorestarcraft wrote:Here is the revamped third and middle. Tendrils mark the edges of the tower vision. Someone would have to control both towers to see all the paths. I think that would be hard to do, but idk. Still open suggestion on that.
Big improvement. Next up would be considering what to do with the amount of space given to the low-ground areas in the middle. You'll perhaps want to think about condensing the openness there just a smidge -- I'd prefer to have a top-down view of the map to make sure I'm not misjudging the amount of space there due to perspective.
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Here is the top down, I'm not sure the low ground is necessarily too open, but I could add a crack or two.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wDtqw.jpg)
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a couple standard-ish templates I've been playing around with
172x112 - very early aesthetics. The map size is pretty weird but I think it works. XNTs may be too strong, idk. Rush distance actually isn't that long, considering the width of the map. (115 from main ramp to main ramp)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lVh3s.jpg)
overview + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PIy48.jpg)
124x136 - first 3 bases are pretty similar to CK, but after that the map deviates. No aesthetics yet
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On December 07 2012 13:47 lorestarcraft wrote:Here is the top down, I'm not sure the low ground is necessarily too open, but I could add a crack or two.
the bases on the lowground near the XNTs feel super forced, idk about their positioning. Those ramps are practically touching where the town hall would be.
I think all the ramps near XNTs should be 1 wider, and the 2 middle ramps should be 1 FF narrower. You should have some drawback if you go right up the middle, as opposed to using the side routes. Then again you are more flankable if you go up the middle, so that might be drawback enough  maybe someone else has thoughts on this.
oh and I don't think the gold minerals in the corners need rocks.
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On December 08 2012 02:01 a176 wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Kxiud.jpg)
The first 4 bases are super boring, but that's ok since the middle is really interesting. XNT helps you hold the middle, but you can't sit a deathball on the XNT since it's such a tiny area. The 2 arms of the middle are just far enough apart that you can't really control all of the middle by sitting in 1 spot. Pretty cool stuff.
I think the 3rd should have a backdoor. Right now the first 3 bases are too safe. They are a much safer version of Cloud Kingdom's.
- CK the attacker has the option of making the nat ramp wider by killing the rocks, here the nat ramp is permanently 2 FF
- CK has a 3rd backdoor, here there isn't one.
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Hey. I'm back to post my WIP melee map for your communal evisceration.
Please sterilize your tools to prevent infection.
Sharp instruments are always appreciated.
My map is called 'Dustup' and is still largely conceptual, since I'm unwilling to proceed too far w/ refinements until the concept proves solid.
Map Stats
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Current dependencies: WoL
2. Tileset 'seed' : Castenar
3. Bounds: 184x184, camera 174x174
4. Choke at each main same size as similar choke on 'Tal Darim Altar LE'
Ramp size from natural to the 'apron' is the same size as the similar ramp on 'Entombed Valley'
5. Estimated worker travel time from center mineral patch in the natural to the center of the opposite main's 'choke': ~40 sec [calculated time as I'm a mac user (no map analyzer tools for me) and haven't yet published the map).
6. Main and natural require 1 tumor for connection.
I also calculate 4 total creep tumors to connect all first 3 bases, provided destructible debris is removed for the third.
7. Middle bases feature 150% gas and 75% mineral resources @ 80% of the 'normal' requirement for worker saturation of a standard base.
8. Pathways containing the Xel Naga towers will be covered at both ends w/ LOS blockers
Bases at 5 & 11 o'clock will also feature LOS blockers to require entry (or flyover) into the space for scouting (all the LOS blockers I placed in the editor don't show up too well in this screenshot).
9. ~35% of this map's 'size' is/are 'holes in space'.
Screenshots
+ Show Spoiler +
I could go on and on about 'what I was trying to accomplish' or 'features that I feel maps need' but I give you all plenty of credit for being wise observers who can easily read my intent and bring some light to the darkness. I'll also give you credit for NOT pointing out some obvious minor flaws, such as absolutely perfect symmetry, as these details will easily be ironed out during the polishing phase. Thanks in advance.
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Okay Fatam! I made these changes just for you!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hYsbg.jpg)
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On December 08 2012 03:52 Fatam wrote:The first 4 bases are super boring, but that's ok since the middle is really interesting. XNT helps you hold the middle, but you can't sit a deathball on the XNT since it's such a tiny area. The 2 arms of the middle are just far enough apart that you can't really control all of the middle by sitting in 1 spot. Pretty cool stuff. I think the 3rd should have a backdoor. Right now the first 3 bases are too safe. They are a much safer version of Cloud Kingdom's. - CK the attacker has the option of making the nat ramp wider by killing the rocks, here the nat ramp is permanently 2 FF - CK has a 3rd backdoor, here there isn't one.
I have a map that very similar to the one a176 posted and has some of the things you say (and others that don't), so i thought why not post it! and get free feedback!
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Rn7Mp.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q8VQF.jpg) There's a bug with my editor as you can see in the vespene geisers, it's not that serious, so i will not reinstall just because of it, but it would be nice if any of you guys knows anything about it (it happens only with the natural geisers and it happens in any texture set)
On December 07 2012 19:51 Fatam wrote:a couple standard-ish templates I've been playing around with 172x112 - very early aesthetics. The map size is pretty weird but I think it works. XNTs may be too strong, idk. Rush distance actually isn't that long, considering the width of the map. (115 from main ramp to main ramp) + Show Spoiler +overview + Show Spoiler +
I really like the layout for the natural, i never have seen it before, but im not so sure about it, does it takes 3 creep tumors to connect the natural and the main right?. And other problem i see is in ZvP/T, if P/T pushes and destroy the rocs in the natural, that would leave Zerg in a very weird angle to defend the natural, A way you could fix this i think it would be to widen the ramp that's ubicated in front of the main's ramp, that way Zerg gets an easier way to surround enemy forces atacking the natural rocks, more no completelly obliterating the posibility for a well positioned force to destroy the rocks and walk over the natural.
+ Show Spoiler +
I really don't know what more you can do for help in the Xel'nagas being in such an open place, for me these xel'nagas give me the feel of being missplaced, but idk where else to put them :/
On December 07 2012 19:51 Fatam wrote:+ Show Spoiler +124x136 - first 3 bases are pretty similar to CK, but after that the map deviates. No aesthetics yet
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TCL1F.jpg)
In the nat i would add some kind of bridge, or path similar to this map, that way in later stages of the game the player can destroy the rocks and open a path to his ~4th/5th base and a shorcut to make harass in the low ground enemy bases that way you avoid the map split scenario to some exent, i would widen the open ramp leading to the 3rd too since the ramp bloqued with rocks is further away, and in that way allow for more harass in the 3rd base trying to avoid the turtlefest that it would cause not doing it, or you could swap the rocks of ramp, put rocks blocking the half of the "1rst" ramp (the ramp that i widened) and remove the rocks in the "2nd" ramp (the ramp that have the rocks now)
I would like to know what you think about these changes.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FTDfh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vH1Ez.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nTWvn.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Xctiy.png)
