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Work In Progress Melee Maps - Page 29
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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
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Ruinsteel
United States43 Posts
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
On December 14 2012 10:35 Ruinsteel wrote: I like it! Can't really find anything bad to say except that I personally don't care too much for the 7 and 2 base positions... maybe if they were rotated 45 or 90 degrees I'd like them, but that's just me. Basically just tried to come up with something I didn't like, which is kind of hard to do .Wow! Thanks man. | ||
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Coppermantis
United States845 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/h9EmH.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TSNgM.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MD1Js.jpg) At this point I'm just doing crazy stuff and seeing what happens. There are four Healing Pools: one in each main for healing and two more in the center that cannot be reached by ground. This could be totally useless or it could result in cool dropship micro picking up units and moving them onto the healing pads. I'm inclined to say that it wouldn't be that much of a difference. The enterance to the third has an island watchtower which is important to control since it allows vision across the LOS blocker. This could also just be a hassle to the attacker, but again I'm just trying random nonsense out. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0RivH.jpg) its uploaded to bnet (hots / custom games) under 'a176' if anyone wants to try it. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
I don't have a name for it yet, also haven't touches textures almost at all since I am not sure I got the right idea for an island map yet, but I do think this is a good start, so please give feedback ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tjBdB.jpg) | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
When it comes to island maps, I think the main issue to overcome is racial balance when it comes to taking expos. How many bases do you put on the starting islands? Traditionally Zerg players want to expand faster, and having a hard cap on how many expos you can take without going to another island can be rough for balance. Of course there's the issue of Terran liftoff as well. I think Arkanoid seems to do a pretty good job at balancing it (it seems pretty racially balanced in terms of how fast the races can expand,) but that requires three bases on the main islands, which is a very macro-heavy setup. If you want only 1-2 bases on the main island and you want to encourage faster teching and air place and not double expanding, I don't know the best solution. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
About having 3 bases in the starting island, I think it is a wrong move, since it makes macroing up the only option in certain matchups. The same as 3 bases, a single base is also bad imo, since it completely removes the macroing option except for Terran (even if you block every expansion they can still make more OC's and use them). Of course its really hard to tell without actually trying, but I think 2 bases is a good amount to start with (since it is a middle amount). Actually maybe there is no perfect amount of bases, since just like layouts for normal maps, island maps also have many different layouts possible, each with its own imbalances that help one race or the other so somehow everything works together to balance the map. Anyways when talking about expanding on island maps, its obvious Zerg has the worst time and Terran the easiest, but Zerg also has the best way for transportation in the midgame, since they can transfer their entire army in one shot, using Overlords or Nydus Worms to pass through cliffs, while Terran or Protoss have faster drops but takes a lot more time to pass their whole army, this makes it so that while early game Zerg is the weakest unless there are 3 bases in the starting island, it is the strongest in the midgame. On this layout, while there is a lot of ground on the map, the best army would be air, since with air you can camp at the middle and reach the entire map pretty fast, while ground armies have to go all around to map to defend areas. That is why I think that in the late game we will see here more of the cooler mass air armies than the standard ground armies. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On December 16 2012 18:45 moskonia wrote: I think its hard to tell without many games testing each layout, but I do think what kespa did was not the right move, since while it is close to be an island map, in the lategame instead of seeing massive tier 3 battles we see normal armies, which beats the concept of island maps imo. Arkanoid is not an island map. It's not supposed to be the concept of an island map, so I don't see any reason to say it's a wrong move. It plays in a way different from full island maps or regular maps. I was only comparing the use of three bases with the function of the creep generators, and not the map overall. Perhaps it's not right to make a comparison even to the early game, though, because of the nature of Zerg economy. Arkanoid allows Zerg to take expand more quickly than the other races, and drone up quite a bit without risk of ground threats. Then, though, in the later game all the armies can use the ground paths. This could arguably be worse for Z and better for the other races because their have the easiest time transporting their army around in the mid-game. On a real island map, the Zerg would (likely, although it's just theorycraft) have an advantage in the midgame which would have to be fixed by weakening their economy early on. With the way the Zerg economy works, you can balance things that way. About having 3 bases in the starting island, I think it is a wrong move, since it makes macroing up the only option in certain matchups. The same as 3 bases, a single base is also bad imo, since it completely removes the macroing option except for Terran (even if you block every expansion they can still make more OC's and use them). Of course its really hard to tell without actually trying, but I think 2 bases is a good amount to start with (since it is a middle amount). I don't think it's a completely absolute thing. I'm fine with some maps that are very macro-focused, but it's sort of like having the Calm Before the Storm of island maps, which is pretty extreme. I sort of feel like it's better to try out extreme examples first, though, instead of trying to make our best guess at something in the middle which we think is close to balanced. If we start extreme and then dial it back, we'll be able to find out exactly how crazy we can get away with and we won't be as limited. I agree that two bases makes the most sense, though. Actually maybe there is no perfect amount of bases, since just like layouts for normal maps, island maps also have many different layouts possible, each with its own imbalances that help one race or the other so somehow everything works together to balance the map. Yeah... but I think you're thinking too much in absolutes about balance, like there's only one right way to do things, and to make a map different you have to add imbalances which balance each other out. I mean, this is sort of true, as mapping at a high level is actually a lot about deciding what compromises to make, as it's impossible to make the map completely ideal in every single way. However, I think it's good to think a bit more openly and realize that there's quite a bit of room for style without even getting to the compromises. Anyways when talking about expanding on island maps, its obvious Zerg has the worst time and Terran the easiest, but Zerg also has the best way for transportation in the midgame, since they can transfer their entire army in one shot, using Overlords or Nydus Worms to pass through cliffs, while Terran or Protoss have faster drops but takes a lot more time to pass their whole army, this makes it so that while early game Zerg is the weakest unless there are 3 bases in the starting island, it is the strongest in the midgame. Yeah. I think the way the Zerg economy works makes it fine to be weaker early game, by making their army stronger so they don't need as much economy. While Protoss getting 2-base vs 2-base against Zerg without needing any cannons or anything seems really strong, but I think P's army mid-game is so weak on island maps it makes up for it, right? I think the only thing we need to find a solution for, before we could start using island maps, is the Terran liftoff. Without that, I think it would be fair to test island maps and see what comes of it. On this layout, while there is a lot of ground on the map, the best army would be air, since with air you can camp at the middle and reach the entire map pretty fast, while ground armies have to go all around to map to defend areas. That is why I think that in the late game we will see here more of the cooler mass air armies than the standard ground armies. I don't quite understand this part. Because there's a lot of land the map would be better for air? While the path around the loop is long, at least there is a path, right? I'd imagine a full island map, with all the bases seperated, would be even better for pure air. | ||
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monitor
United States2404 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8BW88.jpg) 120x144 Thinking some of the distances may be too short. Might try either extending the map to 128x144 or making the middle ramps 1x instead of 2x. | ||
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Ruinsteel
United States43 Posts
For example, I was thinking of something like this: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C4bsk.jpg) That would also leave the problem of the natural ramp not making much sense, so stretching the map may be the best option. Another possibility would be adding the new ramps while keeping the old, adding rocks on the old ramps. Not really sure the best way to go about it, but those are my thoughts on it. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On December 17 2012 03:21 monitor wrote: 120x144 Thinking some of the distances may be too short. Might try either extending the map to 128x144 or making the middle ramps 1x instead of 2x. dat matchpoint | ||
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On December 17 2012 03:47 Ruinsteel wrote:That would also leave the problem of the natural ramp not making much sense, so stretching the map may be the best option. Another possibility would be adding the new ramps while keeping the old, adding rocks on the old ramps. Not really sure the best way to go about it, but those are my thoughts on it. I was thinking the same as you, adding ramps around the same position you suggested, but i would go into the route of keeping the center ramps and adding rocks, since the rush distance problem i see that it would happen mostly during early-midgame, and if you remove the ramps in the middle you remove army movility in that area too and since that's the primary advantaje that gives taking the center of the map i think the games would become kinda of stagnated if you remove those ramps. And yeah the map is extremelly similar to Match point ^^ (i freaking love matchpoint!) | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
On December 17 2012 03:47 Ruinsteel wrote: I don't really care for the 12 and 6 bases. In that kind of a position, I would prefer a mineral layout the same as the natural expansion on Xel'naga Caverns and definitely a bigger choke. From the overview, the choke to that base seems really small, making it hard to assault and get away safely, and harder to defend if you need to get into that location. The choke needs to be small and easy to defend if the base only has 1 entrance, since you can't actually get your entire army into the base to defend it. Also, those bases are kind of far and out of the way for both players, so with a small choke like this you can effectively stall with static defense or a small group of units long enough for your main army to get in position to defend. | ||
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Ruinsteel
United States43 Posts
The choke needs to be small and easy to defend if the base only has 1 entrance, since you can't actually get your entire army into the base to defend it. Also, those bases are kind of far and out of the way for both players, so with a small choke like this you can effectively stall with static defense or a small group of units long enough for your main army to get in position to defend. Good point, didn't really think of it that way . I still don't really care for the bases though, I guess it just doesn't fit my style. I'm the type of person that would have probably put that base in the open, maybe a bit closer to the main, but still in the open.But, that probably just means I have a long way to go as a mapper, since I'm still relatively new at it, and I'm alright with that. Everyday I learn new things, and think about others in a different way. In the long run, it will only help me to improve. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On December 17 2012 10:34 Ruinsteel wrote: Good point, didn't really think of it that way . I still don't really care for the bases though, I guess it just doesn't fit my style. I'm the type of person that would have probably put that base in the open, maybe a bit closer to the main, but still in the open.But, that probably just means I have a long way to go as a mapper, since I'm still relatively new at it, and I'm alright with that. Everyday I learn new things, and think about others in a different way. In the long run, it will only help me to improve. If it were wide open it would require you to have your entire army there to defend it, promoting deathballs. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
Yeah, was about to say that. I guess that's ok, but how many matchpoint remakes are we going to do? lol | ||
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monitor
United States2404 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q6p2y.jpg) I noticed that it began to look like matchpoint when i made the third... but not sure that's a bad thing. That said, the middle now differs quite a bit from MP with the update. | ||
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shenjing
Algeria4 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
I really want some kind of terrain other than an open basin on either side of the middle, but I don't know what it would be. @lorestarcraft: The 4th and 5th base are way too close together. I like the idea that you might take the farther corner base as the 4th before the lowground base to avoid being cliffed, but in the end once you have both it's very easy to defend them simultaneously without any more effort than it would take to defend one of them. Then the 6th base with the tower is hardly any more demanding in terms of map awareness/army movements. I would like to see the low ground base removed/changed in order to fix this. @moskonia: A purely island map (with every base separated from every other base by water/unpathable) would be imbalanced just due to the air units that each race has available. At the best it would be a stalemate situation where the inferior race has to defend an island with static defense / ground units. So your approach is better. Why not connect the donut to the main bases with a blocked pathway? I think a single destructible rocks would be perfect. The ground distance / split path would still dissuade standard ground army play, especially if you put in some clever towers (maybe even in the main base), and would make the late game a lot less gimmicky. Like Desert Oasis but a lot better. @a176: That is one monolithic tower. Is this what you intend? Makes those center bases intensely precarious. @monochromatic: I really like it too! I just wish the distance between entrances was a little farther for attacker compared to defender. Maybe you can just simplify the ramp structure from the main base to make it easier for the defender to move back and forth. I realize you want to have very manageable 2base, much more difficult 3base that promotes being out in the middle to cover the entrances instead of turtling. Maybe you can add some more areas within the base structure to cover the approaches to the entrances, like a small protruding area by the rocks to help cover those. Or, perhaps a mineral patch or two blocking a go-between pathway between the natural and the 3rd. The center of this map is soooo badass, please finish this map. @templar: I agree with samro, definitely favourite of your maps ever. You are steadily improving. Do what samro said. XD | ||
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