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Work In Progress Melee Maps - Page 31

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 20 2012 22:19 GMT
#601
I think you'll have to use trees or something to block vision and pathing. The shrubbery as-is allows the opponent to put units inside, which allows units to slip into spots where they can see down, and prevents full walls. I don't think the map really stops 4gates, though, since you can see down into the main if you have units near the ramp.
all's fair in love and melodies
Uvantak
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Uruguay1381 Posts
December 20 2012 23:02 GMT
#602
On December 21 2012 07:19 Gfire wrote:
I think you'll have to use trees or something to block vision and pathing. The shrubbery as-is allows the opponent to put units inside, which allows units to slip into spots where they can see down, and prevents full walls. I don't think the map really stops 4gates, though, since you can see down into the main if you have units near the ramp.

I already have pathing blockers in the los blockers, so the thing about the pathing is solved. I think this (the los blockers) allows for the defending player to have a bigger chance defending the 4gate with other builds besides the 4gate itself without NEEDING to have a descending ramp, maybe if i found a way to make LoS blockers that work only in one direction and spam the ramp with them, that way the units descending for the ramp won't have vision until they get out of the ramp, but the units in the main will be able to shoot at the descending enemy units.
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
December 21 2012 01:50 GMT
#603
I think it kinda works if the LOS blockers are unpathable. You'll need to get a unit at least partway down the ramp to see on the other side, or an air unit to spot, or a scan.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Uvantak
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Uruguay1381 Posts
December 21 2012 02:16 GMT
#604
I will upload the map tomorrow to the HotS and NA servers, dunno about you guys but at least for me it seems that this might work, or at least in the Beta since toss has the MsC and stuff.

+ Show Spoiler +
Images of the Beta
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Overview of the map

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Size: 162x108
Xel'nagas: 0
Bases: 5 per player

I didn't quite like the looks of it, but i don't think im allowed to whine since i did it in just one day.

i would like to know what you guys think of adding a sixth base over here, or if you would put it in a different spot since im not sure that 5 bases are enough for a map of this size, even if it is just a experimental one.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.
moskonia
Profile Joined January 2011
Israel1448 Posts
December 21 2012 03:29 GMT
#605
Whats the point of the low-ground main?
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-21 06:51:40
December 21 2012 06:51 GMT
#606
On December 21 2012 12:29 moskonia wrote:
Whats the point of the low-ground main?
Essentially, the point of low ground mains is saying 'One base all ins will never work'. A map with a lowground main basically makes one base all ins completely non viable and forces you into a twobase play.

So I got inspired by this map I saw on reddit.

[image loading]

You can tell I made it because too many chokes, too large, too many towers, too many bases. too many counter attack paths and too many siegable naturals.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
December 21 2012 13:36 GMT
#607
I've had it with these motherfucking rules of this motherfucking mapmaking:

[image loading]

- Rocks at expansions? Puh-lease Dustin. I give you hostile planetary fortresses blocking the golds and the island expos.
- Inbase natural with nice ledge over it and ehh, a burning neutral CC that burns down just fast enough that you can comfortably 1gate expand there but you can't actually hatch first or nexus first there.
- A planetary at the middle because why not, ling runbies through that might be possible, walking through it might be ill advisable, whoever opens up that attack path better really want it because you're going to have tot ake out a planetary doing so
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 21 2012 18:08 GMT
#608
Siegeable in-base nats seem like a decent idea to me. I had already experimented with them a bit, in fact.

Seems lazy to use command centers when you can create all kinds of custom objects, though.

I think the main problem with the map is, though, that it's too big and has too much information to easily read.
all's fair in love and melodies
Uvantak
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Uruguay1381 Posts
December 21 2012 19:34 GMT
#609
On December 21 2012 12:29 moskonia wrote:
Whats the point of the low-ground main?

It's mostly to test if it is posible to add variety to the actual maps. In sc2 the maps that don't have a highground main base are utterly broken in PvP since the 4gate is the only strategy that works in the matchup, but by adding the LoS blockers the map becomes playable in PvP. In BW you could have maps without a highground main since warpgate didn't exist, and because of that you could have a wide variety of different map layouts in the main bases. But as i said here in sc2 have a wide variety of mains it just isn't possible, since if you dare to have a lowground main or a main at the same level as the natural PvP becomes a 4gate shitfest.

Tho it may generate other problems like making the 1base all ins or some rushes harder to defend, since the attacking units would have the high ground advantaje, so the map may need some serious testing.

The map has been published under the name of KTV Fotra Këpuka in the Beta and in WoL if any of you guys want to try it out, later today i will make the TL thread for the map with pics showing how the LoS Blockers thing is supposed to work and my thought behind it.

srry if my english went to shit tho
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 21 2012 20:14 GMT
#610
In hots I don't think you need the ramp for 4gate so much with the msc, but they are (unfortunately) balancing the game around being unable to warp onto high ground, which should, in theory, force us to use high ground mains.

Vision makes no difference since you can get spotters so easily anyway, though, so basically high ground only helps against warp gate attacks which you fight at the ramp. 4gate in PvP might not be that anymore with the msc so we might actually be fine to have low-ground mains or flat chokes.

all's fair in love and melodies
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
December 22 2012 01:56 GMT
#611
On December 20 2012 13:17 Gfire wrote:
Here's something I'm trying. Any thoughts?



Random idea: (poorly drawn)

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 22 2012 02:10 GMT
#612
Actually somehow using the collapsibles to reduce the area that they can shoot the nat from is a cool idea, and somehow I hadn't considered it. Although I had thought of doing that with just destructible rocks in wings. I have a feeling putting them like you've shown there would deal with a lot of potentially broken timings or anything, so it might be good. On the other hand, giving the players as many chances to kill workers as possible and dialing back as needed might be a better approach.

I do like the idea, though.
all's fair in love and melodies
BlindSC2
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom435 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 21:07:21
December 22 2012 20:54 GMT
#613
Hi, so I just decided to pick up and try mapmaking yesterday with the HotS editor (partly since the game isn't actually working, I keep getting error reports =/) and I'm actually really enjoying it. Thought I'd upload a very basic WIP to see what you guys think, give me all the criticism and tips you can.

I've got a map layout which I'm fairly happy with, I simply haven't put any 'doodads' or extra textures in it yet. In the first couple of screenshots, I left in the red pathing blocks just to show where they were since it isn't very obvious without the extra textures.

I'll be playing with textures and extras over the next couple of days

Album of pics (11 total)

168x128, quite a lot (too much probably) of dead space, wasn't entirely sure how the bounds worked, 'playable' space is quoted as 148x100. It isn't published anywhere yet, though the name I came up with is 'Whetstone'

Starting location distances are 131 direct, 183 pathed.

Description: Relatively small and enclosed main and natural, with a single choke, although a small passage off to the side is ripe for drops or siege-ing. The low-ground third is very tucked away and again enclosed, accessible via two ramps, one close to the natural, and other leading to a 'hidden' path which goes to a potential fourth in the corner. Aside from this counter attack path, all three early bases are defended by guarding one large ramp, which leads towards centre map.

Aside from the fourth in the corner, the other choice is a closer, but far more open alternative near centre map. Although more difficult to hold, if a player does so, they are rewarded with a strong stepping stone towards the single gold base, which is placed at the very heart of the map, blocked by destructible rocks which also prevent direct access between watchtowers. Paths to the far north and south, unseen by the xelnaga towers, provide counter attack options by ground.

Some notes I know I can improve on:
-There are a couple of crazy good bunker spots at the natural with the way the mineral fields are now, I'll be changing those at some point. They needed changing anyway since I've read the mineral placement page in the map index thread.
-Though I haven't play tested it (since I can't yet...) and I so haven't seen how the boundaries work, there could be WAY too much deadspace around the edges for flyers.
Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools; because they have to say something - Plato
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 22 2012 21:07 GMT
#614
I don't find the "path" on the measure distance tool to be very accurate, unfortunately. 183 sounds like a lot but it's probably less than that.

It's not bad for a first try. The mains are kinda small, though. I kinda like the third setup, actually, although the proportions could of course use a little work. Not too fond of the middle.

I'd suggest you use some standard mineral layouts, though. There's a thread about it.
all's fair in love and melodies
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 21:51:13
December 22 2012 21:50 GMT
#615
removed this
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Uvantak
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Uruguay1381 Posts
December 22 2012 22:48 GMT
#616
For a first map i think you did an excelent job much better than my first map that i will not post here for shame reasons, as Gfire says i would redimentionate the main base since it seems fairly small, to get a "right" size of the main base i suggest you to place around 10 barracks in the main with a small space between them (for addons pathing and stuff) if you can do that and there's still some space left you should be good to go, in the 3rd base i suggest you to open more the ramps since right now it seems to be a very "fortifiable" position and that could lead to deathballing and very passive games.

Here's some of the fixes i would do.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.
BlindSC2
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom435 Posts
December 22 2012 22:59 GMT
#617
Mmm true, now that you mention it, although I already thought the main was relatively small, it's actually tiny for terrans in particular. I'll update it tomorrow, but perhaps I could just move the third north (relative to south east spawn), and move the hidden path further to the left on the other side of the terrain, allowing for the wider and further apart ramps to the third
Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools; because they have to say something - Plato
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 22 2012 23:14 GMT
#618
I think it's the ridge outside the third that is easy to hold, with one 3x ramp and another small choke. I don't think you need to add another ramp down into the third but maybe another ramp from the outside up onto the ridge. Either one into the nat (in that sort of corner area,) blocked by rocks or one between the nat and the 3x ramp, where that middle base currently is.

I think you could increase the north/south bounds of the map to give you some more space to maybe increase the main size and give you some more room to work with. I think you probably need a fifth base that's not too close to the middle, probably.
all's fair in love and melodies
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
December 23 2012 00:51 GMT
#619
On December 20 2012 17:04 Gfire wrote:
I don't think you can really damage units with them unless you can root them in place somehow, as it tends to just push them out of the way. It's more like a (perhaps somewhat subtle) battlefield alteration opportunity. It's nothing too effective since it doesn't really close off any paths, but it's a tool the players can utilize.

These days everyone puts so much thought into everything and everything has to have a point: a very distinct and intentionally designed purpose. But I think giving the players tools that they can then figure out how to use, without any specific intentions, can be a good thing.

Absolutely true about open-ended features. However, consider that all map terrain is like this inherently. That's why unique map features typically have a clear purpose. At the outset of a "new" game, I would lean towards obvious-use instead of open-ended, while the dynamics are themselves fresh and open-ended.

Nevertheless I support exploring this use of rocks. A good way to make them palatable would be to include a small but obvious use that masks the more open-ended nature in the big picture. For example, place a small rock/random doodad clump at the extent of each collapse pile. This creates the impression of a chokepoint and distinguishes the area in which the rocks fall, but being a small dot will have little effect on the open terrain in general. Then collapsing the rocks "closes the chokepoint" instead of "doing nothing", while from the mapmaker perspective it's really the same thing.

Or, you can place LosB in the collapse zone. The rocks will fall and "turn off the LosB".
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 23 2012 04:29 GMT
#620
Yeah, kinda like how we saw rocks used on maps like Blistering Sands or Kulas Ravine, and now how they're used on maps like Cloud Kingdom. That makes sense.

I like your idea about some doodads in around there. I might do something like that.
all's fair in love and melodies
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