EPTAs for fungal growth, Zerg is not defensive with fungals in SC2 because of the infestor, theyre defensive because most zerg compositions besides festor/corruptor/broodlord play just melt. In Starbow theres plenty of ways to be aggressive and having infestors in the composition. If the snare is the issue remove all movement speed effects and keep it as a damage ability only. Still good.
[A] Starbow - Page 92
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
As for fungal growth, Zerg is not defensive with fungals in SC2 because of the infestor, theyre defensive because most zerg compositions besides festor/corruptor/broodlord play just melt. In Starbow theres plenty of ways to be aggressive and having infestors in the composition. If the snare is the issue remove all movement speed effects and keep it as a damage ability only. Still good. | ||
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nilsheam
United States28 Posts
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I like that you look in depth with the numbers. I devote a lot of my free time to creating this MOD. Simply because I enjoy it and it has an audience that slowly grows. But even I do not always have the full picture of whats going on in the game! My desk is full of pappers with all kinds of ideas, calculations, theories and changes. Starcraft, or any RTS game, is a complex thing and I enjopy breaking it down to understand it. There is so much to learn! Anyways, I will look closer at many of the numbers you mention. Some of them are not intentional or has been changed without me considering the wider picture. Do note that a couple of the numbers you mention has been adjusted in the patch that was updated on NA today, right after you wrote your post. Furthermore, all the tooltip errors and "Roach Warren" instead of Swarm Nest are because of Localization. They all work fine on EU, but when the MOD is uploaded on NA a lot of random errors occur. I fear that random errors in units stats might occur too. And I do not know how to fix it  @ Shall someone who do not play the MOD be able to comment on the development? Yes, I do think so. At the case with SmileZerg, he has a good sense of design and development and I agree, he would probably make a good MOD himself. Unfortunatly the hard reality of what actually works in the game will kill a lot of his ideas. It was the same for me. I have been totally convinced so much stuff in my head would be awesome. When I´ve tried it I found too many holes and flaws in it. Even in ideas that I though was bullet proof when I analyzed it a lot! I am doubtful that many of his ideas would work in the current Starbow. I am obviosuly not an all-knowing design oracle who can predict if everything will work or not. But I have developed some kind of sense about it atleast, since I've worked a lot with this thing for a couple of months now. I still think that people shall feel welcome and invited to bring their ideas, analysises and thoughts about this project. I enjoy having this kind of open discussion in this thread, where everyone is free to contribute with ideas. But if people do, they must be aware that their ideas might be critized a lot and not used at all. I know none of you in real life and will probably never do. But its kinda cool that people all over the world devotes time to think, explore, try and write down their thoughts about this project. And I enjoy coming home from work/school/whatever and read whats been written. Like now  What do I expect to happen? What am I trying to archieve? The odds are not so positive that this will ever become something huge. There are no ranking system for this. No way to find players that matches ones skill level. I am making an alternative version of a game I would love to love and this project flourishes from people who share that kind of disapointed feeling. And no matter how good this MOD becomes in terms of game design, balance, depth etc, it will never ever reach out to anyone unless it is fun. Thats the only thing that matters in the end. This must give people a good time playing it. And it must give people a good time observing it. And it must give people a good time thinking about it. And this must be so good that people actually logs in to Starcraft 2 just to play a game of Starbow rather than SC2. O_o And I am just a random dude who was disapointed with SC2 and decided to do something about it, without having any experience of anything similar before. Thats why I think its good to have as many perspectives as possible involved in this, even from people who never play it. I got a comment a while ago from a person who just observed a game: "Why should I ever play this? Its so much slower than SC2." What should I answear him? He gave me a critical viewpoint I had never thought of. It would be a shame if I dismissed his argument simply because he had never tried it. I can´t convince anyone to play this. The game gotta convince people, one by one, and if it works, then maybe this will grow even more. But it is a long road ahead. But I am not in a hurry And what is the goal? The highest possible goal for this would be if it actually became played in tournaments with a pro-scene. Is that realistic? Not really. But even if this project will be cancelled tomorrow, I would still feel satisfied with whats been accomplished so far. That´s because I never did expect that this would recieve such positive criticism and support and a thread viewed over 100.000 times! So please, continue to discuss, criticise, question and bring your ideas about this MOD. Its important and healthy for the development. But make sure to play or observe it as well, to get in touch with the reality  | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Fungal Growth however, is fundamentally flawed as a damage dealing spell. We've already witnessed this in SC2 and I can almost guarantee that in enough time you will see it in Starbow. It's going to lead to dominated strategies for Zerg, i.e., less diversity and fun. If you don't want to take my word for it that's perfectly okay, but I'll be ready to suggest alternatives when you're ready to change it back. | ||
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Canhanrah
35 Posts
On September 29 2012 11:59 SmileZerg wrote: I can understand people being dubious of my suggestions given my lack of gameplay experience with the Mod. But there is also no obligation to commit to any changes that are made - we are still actively patching things on a more or less weekly basis, yes? We have nothing at stake. We don't have tournaments or pro players relying on a strict balance. If anything put into practice seems not to work, revert it. That's why we have people playtesting and why I don't necessarily need to do so myself. I happen to have a mind which excels at understanding retarded design and I love this Mod and enjoy trying to improve it. Not all of my ideas are good - I've gone back and rethought some of them at later points and realized there were real problems. But it doesn't hurt to test. Fungal Growth however, is fundamentally flawed as a damage dealing spell. We've already witnessed this in SC2 and I can almost guarantee that in enough time you will see it in Starbow. It's going to lead to dominated strategies for Zerg, i.e., less diversity and fun. If you don't want to take my word for it that's perfectly okay, but I'll be ready to suggest alternatives when you're ready to change it back. Ok now imagine Z in sc2 without infestors.... | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On September 29 2012 12:43 Canhanrah wrote: Ok now imagine Z in sc2 without infestors.... How is that relevant to the discussion at hand? This isn't SC2, it's Starbow. We aren't confined to balancing the race within Blizzard's poorly designed iteration. Nor am I suggesting we remove Infestors, only that Fungal Growth work differently or that it be replaced by another spell. Also it was rather immature of you to try and ninja edit one of the words in my post when you quoted it. I think you should leave this discussion to the grown-ups. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
I've only played Protoss so far, so my question and suggestion are about them: - Void Rays are kind of bleh. The charge-up mechanics never served any purpose, in my opinion. Maybe change their ability to a temporary increase in damage regulated by a cooldown? Also, it seems you've decreased their base damage (against non-armored targets) to 2. Isn't a unit that's too specialized a bad thing? Personally I'd prefer a more balanced unit, even if it means the damage against armored was decreased. Or just replace the unit with something else. - Storm isn't back to its old BW self. Why not? Just curious what your reasoning is. Otherwise, I love Protoss! | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On September 29 2012 12:33 Laertes wrote: @ SmileZerg and X3GoldDot What's so bad about a spell that slows and deals damage? Ensnare slowed units in BW there was no complaints about that Plague damaged units over time in BW there was no complaints about that Fungal Growth slows units and deals damage over time in SC2, there are complaints, mostly because the spell annihilates marines and the numbers are too strong. So now we have the Starbow infestor, which is like the SC2 infestor at this point with a crucial difference. It's main spell, fungal growth, has been toned down! Genius no? So now the infestor can't walk with a standing army and eliminate entire marine brigades. INSTEAD, we have a spell that is excellent in many scenarios. It doesn't kill armies, just slows them down and deals small damage, so no worries, you need an army or spines around the infestor to kill stuff. The Infestor is an awesome spellcaster and we haven't even seen that MUCH of it yet! You say you have a mind which excels at abstract design, wrap that mind around THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT ABOVE! Ensnare slowed units but did not deal damage. It was purely a support spell. This was why I liked the last incarnation of Fungal we were using, it was essentially Ensnare. Plague dealt damage but it could not kill units by itself, and it did not also slow. (It was also higher tech and on a more expensive unit.) Your opponent could mitigate the damage caused by Plague by microing the damaged units to the back of his army, and he did not have to worry about losing any to pure Defilers... not that this happened because the Defiler was, again, a high tech and expensive support unit. Note that they had absolutely no way of killing anything on their own. Fungal Growth has the best of both worlds except with a lower damage cap, but it can actually kill things. It has no weakness. It's available on a unit which is easier to get and mass than Defilers, can protect itself more easily with burrowed movement, and has two other spells which are capable of dealing extreme amounts of damage under various circumstances, not that these spells are going to see as much use with Fungal as it is now. Again, dominated strategies. It can hit both ground and air targets, reveal cloaked units, slow pursuers and prevent escape, and slowly kill the target the entire time. There is little interaction that can be made with such a spell. You can't micro your army out of the radius like Psi Storm, because once they've been hit the effect is locked in, since it targets the units, not the location. Micro is in fact reduced - even with the stun changed to a 75% slow, it's only a little better than SC2. This would not be a problem if the spell were like Ensnare, but if it's killing the target there's no need for synergy with other units. Can it still be balanced? Sure. Anything can, that's just a matter of tweaking the damage or the duration or the radius or some other variable. But that's a waste of time, because it's bad design. It's not fun. It removes skill and interaction. It overlaps with Banelings, it overlaps with Lurkers, it changes the role of the Infestor from a sneaky support caster to a frontline combatant. Where's the excitement in placing a good Fungal? There is none, it takes very little skill to use. I could go on and on about this but I don't have a whole lot of time at the moment. | ||
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
On September 29 2012 13:15 SmileZerg wrote: How is that relevant to the discussion at hand? This isn't SC2, it's Starbow. We aren't confined to balancing the race within Blizzard's poorly designed iteration. Nor am I suggesting we remove Infestors, only that Fungal Growth work differently or that it be replaced by another spell. Also it was rather immature of you to try and ninja edit one of the words in my post when you quoted it. I think you should leave this discussion to the grown-ups. You just contradicted yourself :/ Fungal in SC2 is an entirely different spell than in Starbow because of the units available. Zerg got shit on for a long time in SC2 (trust me, I've had SC2 since release and been a Zerg since 2001) and heavy infestor play is relatively recent compared to the old builds. Fungal in Starbow is a lot harder to use and doesn't snare, just slows units. As a damage spell 35 damage is minimal compared to the 85 of psionic storm and 100 of emp. Fungal is a crowd control spell that works exceptionally well against clumped units, thus forcing micro keeping your units spaced out a bit. Imo as a Zerg player fungal was needed as Zerg was by far the weakest race of the 3. Perhaps now there will be some balance. @EDIT Was Breaking Point adjusted with the new mod? The hydras are still 6/10 and worker production time is still 25 seconds but there are 8 mineral patches per base. Game ended too quickly to see any other changes. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On September 29 2012 13:49 ArkussSC2 wrote: You just contradicted yourself :/ Fungal in SC2 is an entirely different spell than in Starbow because of the units available. Zerg got shit on for a long time in SC2 (trust me, I've had SC2 since release and been a Zerg since 2001) and heavy infestor play is relatively recent compared to the old builds. Fungal in Starbow is a lot harder to use and doesn't snare, just slows units. As a damage spell 35 damage is minimal compared to the 85 of psionic storm and 100 of emp. Fungal is a crowd control spell that works exceptionally well against clumped units, thus forcing micro keeping your units spaced out a bit. Imo as a Zerg player fungal was needed as Zerg was by far the weakest race of the 3. Perhaps now there will be some balance. It's not a contradiction. In SC2 Fungal Growth was necessary to maintain balance because the game was badly designed. The spell, itself, is also badly designed, regardless of the differences in the Zerg race between SC2 and Starbow. I elaborated on that in the next post I made. It's not a question of balance. Besides, while the race may be or have been underpowered (and I'm reserving judgement on that due to a small player pool), I do not think that this is the way we should go about fixing it, with a catch-all spell. The Hydralisk buff could change things drastically on its own. | ||
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Caas
Sweden51 Posts
is it about the differences in the tier 1 units you complain about? i just wanna know what's so bad with the sc2 fungal.. zerg is the only race with one area of effect spell and has weaker tier units til tier three(some say even then they have weaker units in tidr 3) thats the only way stop a marine massing opponent unless you spend ur gas on banelings and even then the terran can split units.. | ||
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scen
Wales61 Posts
On September 29 2012 21:27 Caas wrote: i've always wondered what you guys mean by bad design in sc2.. is it about the differences in the tier 1 units you complain about? i just wanna know what's so bad with the sc2 fungal.. zerg is the only race with one area of effect spell and has weaker tier units til tier three(some say even then they have weaker units in tidr 3) thats the only way stop a marine massing opponent unless you spend ur gas on banelings and even then the terran can split units.. you really don't get it. It's a bad mechanic rather than imbalance. | ||
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haitike
Spain2726 Posts
Tanks in Starbow has Smart Firing? Or they overkill like in BW? | ||
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Zain3
Sweden45 Posts
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Zain3
Sweden45 Posts
no need to be douchy scen. zerg is the only race without a powerful area of effect spell below tier 3 right or am i missing something? | ||
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