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Played some TvZ and ZvP against Arkuss, gotta say that Hydras feel fucking imba as hell. You can get up to a huge economy and pump them out with impunity and then get out some lurkers and the game is yours. Any play at that point will win, from how it felt to me. Gotta punish or at least heavily harass 3 hatch immediately, probably with careful warp prism zealot or stalker play.
Siege tanks feel really good vs Zerg, at least from the game I played on Match Point. Maybe too good, as it's a bit of a choky map. Didn't get beyond simple marine/tank/medi/vessel or hydra/lurk compositions as whatever I did I had already won the game.
Ling/Muta can work but is super risky ZvP without wasting money on spines (no point when you can mass up a hydra army and lol through everything).
I took a very fast 4th base instead of in-base macro hatch, as this gives income to tech hard and upgrade while massing hydras off all bases.
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I haven't been on recently since the internet at my school has been absolutely garbage recently....
By the time I get home the channel is always completely empty
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I really think you should try to make the races as different as you can without wrecking the game. I would give detection to overlords right from the start. If you feel that's too strong, you can make zerg detection weaker by removing the detection ability from sporecrawlers. This would mean overlords are the only way to really detect, meaning that you can't simply counter stealth units later in the game by putting up spores plus spines. It would also set zerg even more apart from the other races by making them have detection right away but that detection being their ONLY form of detection. Instant detection, but with a big downside of having to babysit defenseless overlords that put you in red supply when they're killed.
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On September 27 2012 15:29 pzea469 wrote:
I really think you should try to make the races as different as you can without wrecking the game. I would give detection to overlords right from the start. If you feel that's too strong, you can make zerg detection weaker by removing the detection ability from sporecrawlers. This would mean overlords are the only way to really detect, meaning that you can't simply counter stealth units later in the game by putting up spores plus spines. It would also set zerg even more apart from the other races by making them have detection right away but that detection being their ONLY form of detection. Instant detection, but with a big downside of having to babysit defenseless overlords that put you in red supply when they're killed.
Woah, I think this idea has some merit.
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^Just to clarify, you mean different from SC2? One of the concerns with what you suggest is that overlords were detectors in Brood War and ideally, this is meant to be different to that also, just maintaining similarities with both SC:BW and SC2 while attempting to be the most fun to play!
I also personally like the usually unrealistic idea of being able to push with spore crawlers as supporting anti-air while also providing detection, so for that fantasy I shall disagree with your wish to change them. :D
EDIT: In Brood War, people could build Spore Colonies to help out against Corsair+DT play, but Spore Colonies were an unpopular thing to make for some time, which could only helped the strategy to succeed. You could encourage this situation again without denying zerg static detectors by improving spore crawlers (maybe) but increasing their cost, so that they are as cost efficient (or better) as anti air but force you to spend more in order to get that static detection, which would make them less popular for that purpose, especially if you keep overlords without detection and have overseers as easy to afford and to access mobile detectors.
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On September 27 2012 12:19 CapnAmerica wrote:
Played some TvZ and ZvP against Arkuss, gotta say that Hydras feel fucking imba as hell. You can get up to a huge economy and pump them out with impunity and then get out some lurkers and the game is yours. Any play at that point will win, from how it felt to me. Gotta punish or at least heavily harass 3 hatch immediately, probably with careful warp prism zealot or stalker play.
Siege tanks feel really good vs Zerg, at least from the game I played on Match Point. Maybe too good, as it's a bit of a choky map. Didn't get beyond simple marine/tank/medi/vessel or hydra/lurk compositions as whatever I did I had already won the game.
Ling/Muta can work but is super risky ZvP without wasting money on spines (no point when you can mass up a hydra army and lol through everything).
I took a very fast 4th base instead of in-base macro hatch, as this gives income to tech hard and upgrade while massing hydras off all bases.
what are you talking about hydras super UP!!!
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@ Hydras
You have some good points, SmileZerg. Increase damage and reduce cooldown on Stalkers sounds like a good idea. But I am doubtful wheter or not Hydras shall be good vs Zealots. Lets look at BW:
When Protoss pushed out with Corsairs, Zerg had to defend by building Hydras. If they overbuilt Hydras, Protoss could attack wih early speed zealots who destroyed hydras. Thats why Lurkers was important to get, they protected the Hydras. And Dragoons killed Lurkers, which made your Zealots/Archons able to push in.. This was a good unit interaction.
If I make Hydras counter Zealots by their own, they will be the only thing you need vs Zealots and Corsairs. Lurkers will not be needed and huge balls of Hydras can´t be touched by enemy Zealots since they just melt from the high Hydra DPS. The fun thing in BW was that Zealots who engaged Hydras forced Zerg to micro. Back away, shoot, back away, split his hydras, shoot etc. Now Hydras will just stand their ground and win.
If instead Stalkers become good vs Hydras that still does not make Lurkers needed. The efficency of Lurkers is that the closer the enemy army comes to the lurker, the more damage do lurkers deal. Thats great vs Zerglings, Zealots, Dark Templars, Archons and short ranged marines + hydras. Stalkers with range 6 (lurkers have 7) will never get close to a lurker. We will see the Stalkers stand at the end of the Lurker spines. 1v1 combat. In short, Lurkers will not be needed in PvZ since Hydras and Zerglings will do that job themselves. How do I know? Because Hydras had base damage 9 for a long time In Starbow some months ago, and maybe even 8 will be too much : /
@Dark Swarm at the Queen
The problem is not that it looks weird because of an extra icon is added to the Queen. Weirdness can be a good thing because it gives the impression that something is different and new between Starbow and SC2. Stuff to explore.
Bad weirdness, however, is when the way a unit is played is radically changed. That is not the case with Nexus Recall, Shield on medics or other changes that are in neither SC2 or BW.
The most powerful Zerg late game spell is added to a tier 1 unit. The Queen will no longer be a cosy mama that spreads creep, feeds the larva and fight of enemy intruders. It will become a hybrid between a base defence caster and the most offensive caster in the game. Identity crisis! It will become a unit that will be brought into combat and the opponent will be like "WTF?" everytime. Cause we are all so used to the distnct role the Queen has. (And the unit works so well in its current form)
Furthermore, if Dark Swarm is added to the Queen, this will give us 1 less unit for Zerg: The Swarm Guardian will have no role at all. Its been discusted wheter or not it should become a Viper instead. I am very doubtful to the spells the Viper has. Abduct is a spell that completely nullifies positional play. "Oh, you have placed your tanks smartly? Well, bad for you.."
Obviously the races shall have methods to breach the enemy defence and use tricks to snipe units etc. But Neural parasite is already an excellent spell for that purpose. And that also require some more work to gain full benefit from, rather than just pulling the unit towards your forces with Abduct.
The other Viper spell is Blinding cloud which is a Disruption Web.. The opposite of Dark Swarm.. And on a flying unit too.. '
However, I do like that such a powerful spell as Dark Swarm is on a slow unit as the Queen is. That encourages creep spread and drop play. To benefit from a game winning spell like Dark Swarm you gotta do some work to get the caster into position. It also gives even more defenders advantage to the game. After all, Zerg is the race that has gotten least defenders advantage in this. (Protoss can Chrono Boost cannons and recall on nexus. Terran has super SCVs, stronger tanks and Spider mines. Zerg just has lurkers..)
Right now you can A-move with Swarm Guardians together with your army and spam Dark Swarm everywhere you want. But I do think there are ways to overcome this:
#1: If the Dark Swarm covers a much smaller area, it will be more important where you place it. Cause right now they are so large that you can cast 1 at the enemy natural expansion and your entire army is protected.
#2: Swarm Guardians gain lower HP. They die easily from Wraiths, Feedback, Snipe, Storm, Stalkers with Blink and maybe even Corsairs. You must protect them!
#3: A couple of seconds delay before Swarm is casted. You start to cast it, the Swarm Guardian hovers in 3 seconds and then cast it. Like BC does with Yamato Gun. This gives the enemy time to snipe it.
But this does not solve the problem of adding other spells to the Swarm Guardian. Please continue this discussion regarding Dark Swarm and what unit it should be on. Its an important piece of the Zerg puzzle to solve.
@R4z0r1991 aka DarkDev
Good points at Wraiths. I will look at that.
I have made Stim last half as long as SC2 Stim but it is better. (It lasts 7 seconds instead of 15, increases attack speed by 100% intead of 50% and move speed by 50%) The reason I made it like this was to make it more important to use it at the right time. If you stim 3 seconds before you engage the enemy army, you lose a large part of the effect. You wanna use it at the right moment! Just as in the movie Braveheart where the Knights charge towards the Peasants and they wanna use their hidden pikes at the right moment..
"Hoold"
"Hoooold!"
"Nooooooooow!"
+ Show Spoiler +
^^
(But Stim in its current form might not be optimal balance)
Regardin terran biomech/mech/bio. I try to make as many units available in all match ups as possible. In BW, Terran had to go full mech vs Protoss in every.single.game... The match up was still fun, but it was always the same few units involved.
I do not try to make exact strategies or unit compositions work for every match up. That is up to the players to discover. I just want to create a good foundation for a good meta-game to be developed, but I obviously have to create some guide lines and make sure certain unit interactions work. As we saw from your games yesterday, you brought a different kind of play style into the game. Your bio + siege tanks + many wraiths + drop play worked very well vs Protoss in a couple of games, simply because you had very good marine control. Other Terran goes for only bio + ghosts + vessels, or just pure mech. It all depends on the situation and how players respond to each others moves and choices. I think there are still much left to discover.
@Arkuss
Good points regarding Zerg. They have just been stripped from a lot of stuff. The only 2 new "fun" things are Lurkers and Dark Swarm. T_T
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@CaptnAmerica tanks are supposed to be great vs zerg and your dominance in position play at the right map locations is what won you the game not the weakness in zerg vs tanks. Having a high ground advantage makes tanks reign hell and since the pathing is different banelings can't a move to auto win lol. You just down right outplayed me.
As for our zvp patches again you out played me and hydras are good vs stalkers with +1 and their bonus armor but that's all they're good for, they melt to most non armoured units. Not getting an early observer ggd myself lol. You out played me those games so you deserved the wins, wasn't a balance issue.
@Kabel maybe bring back some sc2 features but fix what you don't like about them. Fungal can be a damage spell that doesn't have a snare ability, so its just 35 damage or 45 vs armour over time that's it. If you want corruptors at hive tech make them so they don't morph from mutas but just require greater spire to force scourge play until late game. Make roaches cost more supply and a later tech unit if you don't like the roach unit. Just some suggestions so zerg doesn't feel like a whole new race . As for dark swarm my opinion stands that its fine and yeah it sucks if its ssted on a base but you have ways of bypassing it
Sorry to horrible typing. I'm on my phone at school.
Don't give overlords detection it removes cloak units vs zerg. Overlords are mandatory units with no cost to keep one at each base , removing spore detection won't help.
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Feel free to join us in the Starbow chat channel on EU to either observe or play! We are a bunch of people playing already!
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I think the 1 supply cost per hydra is actually sick good, Arkuss. Even if you focus the lurkers I force you into a disadvantageous engagement position or hold a strong contain. Hydras are pretty good at sniping observers as well.
And they're really, really cheap. You can make 8 hydralisks (including the overlord for supply) for very little time investment on larvae, 200 gas, and 700 minerals. That's 4 stalkers and one zealot, and we both know who wins that fight with minimal micro.
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@Corsairs
I have to agree that removing/moving lift to feet beacon can ruin its usefulness in other MUs. After reading all responses i have to say i think giving energy back to corsairs is good idea. Also, you could limit their energy to 100, so you wont be able to spam it left and right once they stacked some energy. Active usage will be still important, like with cooldown, will make them interact with other units better, and most important it wont be possible to use that so ridiculously often.
@Cannons
I agree on that chrono on them is working cool, but i cant agree that their dps is main reason. Its just 25% increase. They were killing hydras fast even in BW, but you had to dart in and snipe them. And it was possible. All that dancing with probes and zealots, defending precious cannons. With buff vs light/nerf vs armored/nerf dps you will deny that possibility completly. It all will be about just luring chronos. Dancing was always cool.
@PF
Yeah, making PFs have single target atack may be enough of nerf. Dno, i support testing this idea, maybe just with slight atk speed buff.
@Hydras
Reasons they are worse vs corsairs/wraths are:
1. Corsairs can fight back (quite effectivly in low numbers), and take less dmg (not sure if less hits are neccesary to kill them tho, cuase they have less hps).
2. Wraths take almost half of dmg they did in BW.
I think wraths could be armored. They were large in BW, and they still could do some trouble.
Dont think they need to be better vs marines. We have lurkers AND BANES. Dark swarm fucks marines. Imho hydras are in good place right now in this MU. Dont turn them into zerg marines.
@Scourges
I have no idea how you could get that feeling. Just people are not yet used to that. Let them learn how to micro them. Probably most of players dont even know what cloning is.
@Overlords/Overseers
Once i get lair i get detection whenever i want basically in 30sec. Overseer is always ready, with my army. And you say players will just fly flock of ovies with them. So what? Im now taking 4 overseers in battles. They are basically free and super fast (with upgrade). You wont probably loose them anyway.
With slow ovies you are risking much more to get suply blocked. You have to plan to make any timing atack, so your ovies will be in spot. (not just lair but speed for ovies has to be done). Now you just dont have it pre lair, or have it with your army on lair+.
Also i have to say i like this idea much more than current one.
I really think you should try to make the races as different as you can without wrecking the game. I would give detection to overlords right from the start. If you feel that's too strong, you can make zerg detection weaker by removing the detection ability from sporecrawlers. This would mean overlords are the only way to really detect, meaning that you can't simply counter stealth units later in the game by putting up spores plus spines. It would also set zerg even more apart from the other races by making them have detection right away but that detection being their ONLY form of detection. Instant detection, but with a big downside of having to babysit defenseless overlords that put you in red supply when they're killed.
@Psychological question
The only one I know that plays Zerg as a main race in SC2, and who actually enjoys it in Starbow is Danko... O_o
I love zerg but other races are much more fun to play. Zerg lacks interesting casters and cool abilities (especially non-aoe/single target). Finish casters and situation will change.
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@Hydras
Its a puzzle to get their attack deal proper damage. They shall be good vs mutalisks, wraiths, corsairs and maybe armored targets and buildings. They shall be weak vs zealots, marines, zerglings etc.
@ Zerg casters
Feel free to give me ideas regarding how zerg casters shall be.
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@ zerg single target spell ideas
I had this idea you could experiment with if you find it interesting for "zerg single target spell". Basically its like Witch Doctor's Haunt from Diablo 3. How it would work should be something like this:
You cast the spell on a single target (enemy unit/worker) and the spell does some effect/debuff of your liking (my idea was just life drain over x amount of time) over a fixed amount of time. When the effect expires on the first unit, if that unit is not killed (by you or your opponent) allowing the spell to do its full effect, the spell than jumps to another 2 units (or more.. whatever feels right). The spell does the same effect to the 2 units and if they are not killed, the abillity then jumps further to a new set of targets, repeating that scenario up to a limited number of jumps.
So the abillity kinda spreads like a disease and IMO fits great with Zerg "lore". I'd even give it to Infestor and call it "Infestation" because I think its redundant we have a unit called "Infestor" that doesnt actually infest anything.
So thats the mechanic of it. What actual effect it would have I leave to your liking. My idea was, as I said, drain X amount of life over a X amount of time. So if its something like 150 life, casting the spell on i.e. Battlecruiser would be a waste because then the spell wouldnt be able to jump to a new target, but then again, thats guaranted 100 damage so it still pays off at least a bit.
If you think about it a bit, I think its not such a bad idea.
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Hydras should be okay/not weak vs unstimmed marines. Their weakness vs zealots should be from the high hp and speed of zealots.
Regarding casters:
The mobility of the Swarm guardian is probably the main reason why it seems too strong. It suffers from the SC2 balance troubles - its balanced by its strengths not its weaknesses. in BW units were balanced by their weaknesses, and this gave them depth and meant there were no obvious counters. In SC2 units were balanced by their strengths, forcing them into specific counter situations. Give it something to make it more vulnerable, and you can keep the strong swarm, even giving it a plague-strength second spell.
Infestors seem great in their current form. Concept wise they are sneaky and fast, but fragile for the cost - doing mostly indirect damage by disrupting the enemy. This means that any damage dealing spell should not be primarely for damage (although they need something other than IT's imo).
Queens are fine as a defensive, econ centric caster. Nothing to really change there.
There is room for a more offensive zerg caster though - but that role could be filled by the Swarm guardian with a better second spell.
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On September 27 2012 20:22 Kabel wrote:
@Dark Swarm at the Queen
The problem is not that it looks weird because of an extra icon is added to the Queen. Weirdness can be a good thing because it gives the impression that something is different and new between Starbow and SC2. Stuff to explore.
Bad weirdness, however, is when the way a unit is played is radically changed. That is not the case with Nexus Recall, Shield on medics or other changes that are in neither SC2 or BW.
The most powerful Zerg late game spell is added to a tier 1 unit. The Queen will no longer be a cosy mama that spreads creep, feeds the larva and fight of enemy intruders. It will become a hybrid between a base defence caster and the most offensive caster in the game. Identity crisis! It will become a unit that will be brought into combat and the opponent will be like "WTF?" everytime. Cause we are all so used to the distnct role the Queen has. (And the unit works so well in its current form)
Furthermore, if Dark Swarm is added to the Queen, this will give us 1 less unit for Zerg: The Swarm Guardian will have no role at all. Its been discusted wheter or not it should become a Viper instead. I am very doubtful to the spells the Viper has. Abduct is a spell that completely nullifies positional play. "Oh, you have placed your tanks smartly? Well, bad for you.."
Obviously the races shall have methods to breach the enemy defence and use tricks to snipe units etc. But Neural parasite is already an excellent spell for that purpose. And that also require some more work to gain full benefit from, rather than just pulling the unit towards your forces with Abduct.
The other Viper spell is Blinding cloud which is a Disruption Web.. The opposite of Dark Swarm.. And on a flying unit too.. '
However, I do like that such a powerful spell as Dark Swarm is on a slow unit as the Queen is. That encourages creep spread and drop play. To benefit from a game winning spell like Dark Swarm you gotta do some work to get the caster into position. It also gives even more defenders advantage to the game. After all, Zerg is the race that has gotten least defenders advantage in this. (Protoss can Chrono Boost cannons and recall on nexus. Terran has super SCVs, stronger tanks and Spider mines. Zerg just has lurkers..)
This is exactly why I think it works. Early game Dark Swarm will be a defensive spell, because your Queens will not be able to stray far from your bases due to lack of creep. Their play style won't change much at all! However, in the Late game, with more creep spread, Overlord Drops, hopefully Nydus Worms, and extra macro Hatches for more Queens, you can use some of them as forward army support units, protecting your forces with Dark Swarm and Transfuse.
I still don't think this is weird. Seeing Queens mixed into the Zerg army lategame is actually a pretty regular occurrence in SC2, because of the power of Transfuse when used with Brood Lords and Ultralisks. We aren't so much changing the role of the Queen as we are allowing them to transition into an additional role in the later stages.
@ Viper
I always figured if/when we add this unit in to replace Swarm Guardian, we wouldn't use the same exact spell repertoire as Blizzard gave it. Consume is cool and should stay to help tie it in with the Defiler. Abduct is really cool and deserves a chance, but like you said if it punishes positional play too easily then it might not be the right fit (still I'm sure there are ways we could balance it). But Blinding Cloud is obviously not a spell we need! So we can cross that bridge when we come to it.
@Hydras
Its a puzzle to get their attack deal proper damage. They shall be good vs mutalisks, wraiths, corsairs and maybe armored targets and buildings. They shall be weak vs zealots, marines, zerglings etc.
What about giving them a stronger separate attack versus Air, and leaving in the anti-armored bonus on the ground?
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On September 28 2012 05:28 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:22 Kabel wrote:
@Dark Swarm at the Queen
The problem is not that it looks weird because of an extra icon is added to the Queen. Weirdness can be a good thing because it gives the impression that something is different and new between Starbow and SC2. Stuff to explore.
Bad weirdness, however, is when the way a unit is played is radically changed. That is not the case with Nexus Recall, Shield on medics or other changes that are in neither SC2 or BW.
The most powerful Zerg late game spell is added to a tier 1 unit. The Queen will no longer be a cosy mama that spreads creep, feeds the larva and fight of enemy intruders. It will become a hybrid between a base defence caster and the most offensive caster in the game. Identity crisis! It will become a unit that will be brought into combat and the opponent will be like "WTF?" everytime. Cause we are all so used to the distnct role the Queen has. (And the unit works so well in its current form)
Furthermore, if Dark Swarm is added to the Queen, this will give us 1 less unit for Zerg: The Swarm Guardian will have no role at all. Its been discusted wheter or not it should become a Viper instead. I am very doubtful to the spells the Viper has. Abduct is a spell that completely nullifies positional play. "Oh, you have placed your tanks smartly? Well, bad for you.."
Obviously the races shall have methods to breach the enemy defence and use tricks to snipe units etc. But Neural parasite is already an excellent spell for that purpose. And that also require some more work to gain full benefit from, rather than just pulling the unit towards your forces with Abduct.
The other Viper spell is Blinding cloud which is a Disruption Web.. The opposite of Dark Swarm.. And on a flying unit too.. '
However, I do like that such a powerful spell as Dark Swarm is on a slow unit as the Queen is. That encourages creep spread and drop play. To benefit from a game winning spell like Dark Swarm you gotta do some work to get the caster into position. It also gives even more defenders advantage to the game. After all, Zerg is the race that has gotten least defenders advantage in this. (Protoss can Chrono Boost cannons and recall on nexus. Terran has super SCVs, stronger tanks and Spider mines. Zerg just has lurkers..) This is exactly why I think it works. Early game Dark Swarm will be a defensive spell, because your Queens will not be able to stray far from your bases due to lack of creep. Their play style won't change much at all! However, in the Late game, with more creep spread, Overlord Drops, hopefully Nydus Worms, and extra macro Hatches for more Queens, you can use some of them as forward army support units, protecting your forces with Dark Swarm and Transfuse. I still don't think this is weird. Seeing Queens mixed into the Zerg army lategame is actually a pretty regular occurrence in SC2, because of the power of Transfuse when used with Brood Lords and Ultralisks. We aren't so much changing the role of the Queen as we are allowing them to transition into an additional role in the later stages. @ Viper I always figured if/when we add this unit in to replace Swarm Guardian, we wouldn't use the same exact spell repertoire as Blizzard gave it. Consume is cool and should stay to help tie it in with the Defiler. Abduct is really cool and deserves a chance, but like you said if it punishes positional play too easily then it might not be the right fit (still I'm sure there are ways we could balance it). But Blinding Cloud is obviously not a spell we need! So we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Show nested quote +@Hydras
Its a puzzle to get their attack deal proper damage. They shall be good vs mutalisks, wraiths, corsairs and maybe armored targets and buildings. They shall be weak vs zealots, marines, zerglings etc. What about giving them a stronger separate attack versus Air, and leaving in the anti-armored bonus on the ground?
Whelp here goes my 49 drone tons of macro hatch all queens for def hive rush build becoming viable. I'm Totally all for dark swarm on the queen stopping pretty much any T early/midgame aggression Long live 5 range 150 min 0 gas costin, dark swarm throwing, transfuse barfing, creep slingin', larva injectin' queen.
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Since its Zerg week this week, lets continue discuss the race. After all, its the race that sucks most right now in terms of awesomness. And its late here in Sweden so I will soon go to sleep. I enjoy reading posts in the morning, so I bring another topic here to be discussed during the night. And now some of you gonna wanna kill me even more, but this is just for the sake of discussion ^^
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oejxb.jpg)
Is there no room for this little fellow in the game? Don´t get me wrong. I am not saying that I will add it or force it in the game in any way. I just want to discuss wheter or not this unit would actually add something to the Zerg race. Let me start with my viewpoint:
People often misstakes me for being a Roachhater. That is not true. I am just not satisfied with the design of the Roach in SC2. It could have been so much more!
1. It is too similar to the Hydra. They have roughly the same speed, same cost and supply, shoot with a quite short ranged attack and works in the same way. Roaches are just a bit tougher and Hydras are anti air. But their functionality is similar. Kinda like if both the Dragoon and Stalker or Firebat and Hellion would be in the game. Yes, they are slightly different but they still overlap a lot. I like units that are very unique in what they do. (Unique does not mean that they must have lots of fancy abilities. Stuff can be simple but still unique.)
2. The Roach "special abilities" are kinda bad and.. uninteresting. They can regenerate fast and move while burrowed at a slow speed. Atleast I do not see that used as often as I see Blink, Stim pack etc being used in pro games. When I first heard about this unit many years ago, I thought it had some kind of tunneling ability, Digging deep into the ground to "disapear" for a while, or creating small roach tunnels like moles. Or digging into the ground to make their asses pop up and shoot air.. Or that something was special with the way they came into play. They are roaches! They come from the ground and bring their friends! Or something else.. But they are built like anything else and works like anything else.. They can not even evolve to anyhing, like Hydras and Zerglings can : /
To make the question clean and simple: How can the Roach be to actually add something to Starbow?
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@ Queen with Dark Swarm..
Hm.. How do Queens get access to it? Via upgrade? They start with it? Cheap to cast but cover small area, or expensive to cast and cover large area? More details and analyze the possible consequenses please since I'm too tired to think myself
@Update for NA
I will send an update to NA tomorrow.
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On September 28 2012 06:15 Kabel wrote:
To make the question clean and simple: How can the Roach be to actually add something to Starbow?
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@ Queen with Dark Swarm..
Hm.. How do Queens get access to it? Via upgrade? They start with it? Cheap to cast but cover small area, or expensive to cast and cover large area? More details and analyze the possible consequenses please since I'm too tired to think myself
@Update for NA
I will send an update to NA tomorrow.
Snipped the long post this time.
@adding roach... im for it but they would have to be reworked... seems possibly pretty strong in zvt as theres no marauders and since marines dont have combat shield upgrade they would be pretty cost effective vs them.. roach ling all ins would probably do a ton of damage to any T that expanded before tanks
@queen with darkswarm They really should never get dark swarm... if they did it would have to be enough energy used so they couldn't transfuse after.. though id love to defend everything with spines and queens only it feels like the Z would delay gas quite a lot longer.
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@Corsairs
Giving energy back to them is a great idea and it shall fix the problem of Corsairs vs Hydra (if the problem still exist after the hydra damage buff) but I want to talk about another problem. After a game against Danko, I noticed that Corsairs aren't as effective against Mutalisk as they were in BW. In fact, Corsairs have less hp, less shield and don't have 1 armor at start anymore. The lack of armor make a big difference against the boucing attacks of the muta. I also noticed that Corsairs acceleration and rotation speed are very low (1.75 and 720) compared to Mutalisk or to SC2's Phoenix (both have 3.25 and 1500). Imo, it explain why microing Corsairs vs Muta seem difficult in Starbow.
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EPT
