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(psst smilezerg, if you didn't notice at the top right of da screen, there is a private message thingy. click on it. <3)
i apologize for posting this on the forum without any other useful input, so im going to put in some useful input ;D
Some zergs are complaining about the lower number of larvae they are able to use, so i was thinking of a way to make an interesting way to help with this. What if creep tumors could be upgraded into creep colonies? Not like in bw, more like a visible 400ish hp building that produces 2 or so larvae at the hatchery pace. It would be an upgrade for maybe 50/50 per tumor. This would help in giving zergs more larvae, more incentive to make tumors, and more positions with managing territory. Additionally, having units spawn along the creep highways would give more of a stream of reinforcement, less like small waves from scattered hatches, making the zerg macro better as a whole imo. Creep tumors are more convenient and massable, and i think the idea also fits in with the zergy mutation theme and having another larva production system derived from the queen to fit in thematically (;D smiles).
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@ Dark Swarm on Queen requirements
There are two ways we could do this. Make it available instantly, so that it can be used early game as a defensive spell (which is not remotely as overpowered as someone just tried to make it out to be considering tons of attacks still ignore Dark Swarm and Queen energy will be at a premium before you have a few macro hatches up) or make it unlocked by Hive/Lair research.
I think Lair is the best option, since Zerg will need at least SOME gas investment that way.
@ Roach
Kabel I'm glad you were the first one to bring this up because I've been thinking about this for awhile. Like you said, for this unit to return it needs to have a defined role distinct from the Hydralisk. How can we do this?
First, change the tech requirement. Now that Hydras are Tier 1, Roaches should take their place as Tier 2. Less overlap.
Secondly, emphasize their burrowed-movement as the primary attribute of the unit. As the theme of Lair tech is attacking underground or over air, let's make the Roaches burrowed movement speed much faster, maybe even faster than their above ground speed.
Thirdly, reduce their range. Roaches will be the sort of unit you want to burrow right up to underneath your enemy and spring an ambush, not a core ranged unit as a part of your army.
Here's the drastic part of my suggestion: No Roach Warren. Make them a Zergling morph that requires the Infestation Pit.
Why Zergling Morph?
I think it would be interesting to have each of the core Zerg units have two morph options. With Mutalisks it's Broodlord or Corruptor, with Zergling it would be Roach or Baneling, and Hydralisk currently has Lurker and hopefully someday Swarm Host (totally different discussion though, and one that needs to wait for HotS).
The Roach shares both the acid attack of a Baneling and a similar overall body structure. It makes sense to me that it would mutate from the same strain.
Why Infestation Pit?
It ties into the name. Roaches are an irritating house pest that infests your home. It also fits with the Infestor being a fast burrow-movement unit as well, though in a different capacity (caster rather than fighter).
So my general idea for the unit, is to be a stealthy base raider that is primarily used to mess with the enemies production and cut reinforcement lines. We could give them bonus damage versus structures perhaps, maybe a passive ability that allows the acid to deal damage over time. I would also reduce their HP and buff the rapid regeneration speed, encouraging more burrow play and hit-and-run tactics.
Also put them at 1.5 supply (as a Zergling morph they would cost 1 additional supply each) so that they're a bit less massable than Hydras as well.
Beyond that I'm open to other ideas as to what we could do with the unit.
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On September 28 2012 09:19 nilsheam wrote:
. What if creep tumors could be upgraded into creep colonies? Not like in bw, more like a visible 400ish hp building that produces 2 or so larvae at the hatchery pace. It would be an upgrade for maybe 50/50 per tumor. This would help in giving zergs more larvae, more incentive to make tumors, and more positions with managing territory. Additionally, having units spawn along the creep highways would give more of a stream of reinforcement, less like small waves from scattered hatches, making the zerg macro better as a whole imo. Creep tumors are more convenient and massable, and i think the idea also fits in with the zergy mutation theme and having another larva production system derived from the queen to fit in thematically (;D smiles).
Can't help but comment:
At first glance this sounds like it could be a really cool, really original way to make zerg in Starbow more appealing and badass.
Larvae spawning creep colonies would naturally become a new strategic point of contention around the map. They would also serve as a zerg analog to toss warp-in pylons: zerg sneaks hidden creep colonies near opponents bases, allowing for multiple lanes of reinforcement and surprise flanks.
Any problems with this I am not seeing yet?
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On September 28 2012 12:39 Von wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:19 nilsheam wrote:
. What if creep tumors could be upgraded into creep colonies? Not like in bw, more like a visible 400ish hp building that produces 2 or so larvae at the hatchery pace. It would be an upgrade for maybe 50/50 per tumor. This would help in giving zergs more larvae, more incentive to make tumors, and more positions with managing territory. Additionally, having units spawn along the creep highways would give more of a stream of reinforcement, less like small waves from scattered hatches, making the zerg macro better as a whole imo. Creep tumors are more convenient and massable, and i think the idea also fits in with the zergy mutation theme and having another larva production system derived from the queen to fit in thematically (;D smiles). Can't help but comment: At first glance this sounds like it could be a really cool, really original way to make zerg in Starbow more appealing and badass. Larvae spawning creep colonies would naturally become a new strategic point of contention around the map. They would also serve as a zerg analog to toss warp-in pylons: zerg sneaks hidden creep colonies near opponents bases, allowing for multiple lanes of reinforcement and surprise flanks. Any problems with this I am not seeing yet?
There are a few problems, but actually not as major as I first assumed.
I'm gonna think on this one awhile myself and see if I can find any issues.
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On September 28 2012 12:36 SmileZerg wrote:
@ Dark Swarm on Queen requirements
There are two ways we could do this. Make it available instantly, so that it can be used early game as a defensive spell (which is not remotely as overpowered as someone just tried to make it out to be considering tons of attacks still ignore Dark Swarm and Queen energy will be at a premium before you have a few macro hatches up) or make it unlocked by Hive/Lair research.
I think Lair is the best option, since Zerg will need at least SOME gas investment that way.
There is a reason dark swarm is hive tech in broodwar.
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On September 28 2012 15:14 Canhanrah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 12:36 SmileZerg wrote:
@ Dark Swarm on Queen requirements
There are two ways we could do this. Make it available instantly, so that it can be used early game as a defensive spell (which is not remotely as overpowered as someone just tried to make it out to be considering tons of attacks still ignore Dark Swarm and Queen energy will be at a premium before you have a few macro hatches up) or make it unlocked by Hive/Lair research.
I think Lair is the best option, since Zerg will need at least SOME gas investment that way.
There is a reason dark swarm is hive tech in broodwar.
That reason being that Defilers are far more mobile than Queens off-creep (there wasn't even a creep mechanic in BW other than for placing buildings), could use Consume, and weren't limited by the number of Hatcheries.
Mass Recall was only available on Arbiters in BW. Now you can get it on the Nexus after a much earlier upgrade.
Nukes were extremely late game. Now Ghosts are available at T1.5.
We aren't trying to recreate Brood War exactly. We're trying to make the best game we can by taking the best aspects of both BW and SC2. Design >>> Balance, and the fact is that Dark Swarm on Queens makes sense from a thematic and dynamic standpoint. The power of the spell can be tweaked as necessary. We have radius, duration, casting range, energy cost, and tech requirements as variables for that purpose.
Let me also remind you that Terran has Firebats, Medics, more powerful Siege Tanks and Spider Mines which can all deal with units under a Dark Swarm in the early and midgame. It doesn't shut down aggression at all, it just adds another strategic factor for both sides to consider.
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Sorry but even if Dark Swarm was nerfed, making it available at hatch or lair tech doesn't make sense from a design standpoint. Of course, it doesn't mean that Protoss and Terran can't pressure Zerg anymore, but it still greatly reduce the numbers of option they have in the early game because it make most ranged unit useless. It also totaly mess up units interaction in early and mid game (good luck balancing that). For example, Lurker are balanced because in mid game, they are very strong against melee unit and bio but can be countered with high range units like Stalkers or Tank. What will happen if those can't hit Lurker anymore?
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@NukeD
Sounds like an interesting idea but a bit too hard for me to create. But who knows.
@New spawn larva idea
I think Queens and hatcheries are enough for spawning larvas. If the larva spawn rate is too slow the easiest thing is to adjust the values, rather than bring in an additional source for larvas into the game. (I have added so many weird ways of getting extra larvas in the past and it got so annoying to not be able to select larvas via hatcheries.)
@Roach
Making it become a spellcaster sounds a bit over the top.
Making it become a base raider will never work in practice, at least not as you describe it SmileZerg. Mutalisks are more effective for hit and run attacks and besides, as soon as Protoss and Terran get a cannon or turret up at their bases, there is no way Roaches will move underground to the worker line, unburrow, raid the workers and escape. Same goes on the open field. An observer or a Science Vessel prevents that from happening to your army. Besides, Infestors are much better as base and army raiders, since you can move burrowed, throw Infested Terrans and escape. Without loosing any units that costs resources. Or maybe the Roaches could snipe some units out of position, but getting a major surpise attack underneath the feets of the enemy army sounds unlikely. But again, mutalisks are excellent at picking of units out of position.
Furthermore, making them morph from Zerglings and require Infestation pit is just artificial respiration for the unit. Fancy stuff that changes nothing with the unit itself or the way the unit is played. It will still likely be a tough unit you just clump up with your army and attack. That must not be wrong in itself, but we already have Hydralisks, Zerglings and Ultralisks for that. But I do like the fact that they in some way can become a "underground" unit.
The only thing that makes the Roach unique compared to other Zerg units is their decent HP and their overall effectivness in all match-ups in all stages of the game. One way to actually make them have a role in the game:
- Require Lair
- More expensive and with higher supply cost (To further seperate them from Hydralisks)
- Good HP and maybe have a rapid regeneration
- Moves faster while burrowed than on land.
- Will function like a unit that in mid game can absord damage quite well for Zerg, but do not deal so much damage themselves. Hydras, Zerglings, Banelings and Lurkers are damage dealer but have little life and armor.
On the other hand, this will just make them into a mid-game cheaper Ultralisk with the absurd benefit of moving faster burrowed than on land.. ^^
@Corsairs
People request energy bar. That is so ugly. I like when casters have energy and non-casters don´t. If I could I would remove the energy bar from Wraiths too >.<
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Anyways, a new patch has been sent to NA. It contains some of the changes that has been added to EU lately and has been discussed in this thread. Most notable:
Each expansion contains 8 mineral patches instead of 6.
The build time of workers is 22 seconds instead of 25, since more mineral patches are at each base. The total saturation time is still similar. This also speeds up the game a little bit.
Hydras deal 8 as base damage instead of 6. (I am still doubtful about this. But we will play and see)
Fungal growth deal normal damage but do not stun the enemy units. Instead their movement speed is slowed by 75%. (Earlier move and attack speed was slowed by 50%)
Planetary fortress deals no splash damage.
Cannons have a bit slower attack speed.
Lots of minor tweaks.
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The only thing that makes the Roach unique compared to other Zerg units is their decent HP and their overall effectivness in all match-ups in all stages of the game. One way to actually make them have a role in the game:
- Require Lair
- More expensive and with higher supply cost
- Good HP and maybe have a rapid regeneration
- Moves faster while burrowed
- Will function like a unit that in mid game can absord damage quite well for Zerg, but do not deal so much damage themselves. Hydras, Zerglings, Banelings and Lurkers are damage dealer but have little life and armor.
On the other hand, this will just make them into a mid-game cheaper Ultralisk..
I was thinking about the same things concerning Roach. A big unit that moves very slow on ground (even on creep) but with faster movement speed, higher armor and rapid health regen when burrowed. It attack would be low range (3?) with high burst damage and bonus vs armored but very high cooldown (2 or 3 seconds). While burrowed, Roach would be able to quickly reach a specific target (like Tank, Reaver...) without suffering too much damage and then, they can unburrow, snipe the unit, burrow to heal or escape, unburrow again after 2 seconds...
But I agree with you, Ultra are already their to tank damage, so I don't know if it would be used.
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Is there any way to build a pseudo-ladder system for this? Does the custom game engine support this?
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Custom maps doesn't support any kind of ladder afaik. There are ways to track wins/losses thought perhaps something like that could be added (and counted only if you play against a real guy)
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Another list!
Swarm Guardian's "Roach Warren" - needs to be renamed to Swarm Grotto/Swarm Warren et cetera, but maybe the sharpness is too high on it? It stands out too much compared to the other buildings, could someone just smooth or blur the details slightly so that it looks more natural? Just for information, I'm playing on High textures, Ultra shaders and Terrain, most other settings are one or the other.
Scourge don't show up in the Units or Army tabs (their cost does not count, are they even assigned to the 'zerg' race? Something like that (a flag?) is missing.
Scourge never splashed on anything, they just blow up on their target even if the damage dealt by the scourge that hit right before it will already kill it.
Void rays are absolutely pathetic, I'm guessing they charge up more than normal? As far as I can tell, it's 2 (6 charged) versus light/[medium] and 8 (14 charged) versus armoured. I don't see why they have this cost while also being weaker than in SCII.
The BW equivalent move speed for Carriers in this game would be 1.40625 like Brood Lords and like BCs originally had in SCII; a speed upgrade for ALL Stargate units AFTER the SCII Carrier speed of 1.875 speed seems nuts to me, but we'll see how it plays out.
Interceptors still cannot be targeted.
The problem with hydralisks is simply that things like Wraith that have light armour but used to be large now take far less from the hydralisks, just as they deal less damage to units that are medium ('unspecified'/'enigmatic'/no-type', like banelings, queens and ghosts) than they would have dealt to 'Medium' size in BW.
The current hydra speed on creep is odd, just below 30%. That's all being discussed anyway though.
Assuming void rays are actually good enough to be worth the 250/150 cost, they should be 4 supply (they should in SCII..).
People might say they aren't great in a lot of ways, but the fact is, they CAN deal tremendous damage, they do cost MORE than immortals and in SCII, Hydralisks, while cost efficient against them, are not supply efficient against them as you need more than 1.5 hydralisks for each void ray.
In this game, hydras are only one supply, so that's not a problem, but if you buff void rays as I can only imagine is appropriate, it would be something to keep an eye on.
The fact that ultralisks cost the 100 less minerals as in BW but have 500 life and deal 50% more damage than BW Ultras baffles me. I personally think that they should be balanced around having about 19 base damage in SC2 (regardless of what the vs armoured damage would be), so that it's only 3 hits to kill a marine, ignoring any possible armour advantage or healing that they may have, so going for 24 might seem strong in this game, 20 would be like in BW but you've chosen 30. o_O
I like that Irradiate uses 100 energy as a lot of people in Brood War thought it was too good at 75, but with that in mind, irradiate is made far, far worse against ultralisks if the ultras are also stronger, cheaper and have more life than BW Ultralisks. You're balancing Starbow around overly powerful Ultralisks and Stim Packs (but you know this).
The Stim concerns me though, because not only is it so strong, but I think it'll be far too easy to hurt terran by forcing stims with mutalisks, lurkers, lings, banes etc without committing while they through masses of hit points away.
You know that the equivalent worker speed in SC:BW was 2.8125 as it is in SCII, right? You have it at 2.95.
The Chrono Boost on cannons looks fantastic so long as there is a range limitation of 10 or something like that, perhaps less?
I'm not sure how the exact percentage chosen for the increase from the ultralisk speed upgrade (Anabolic Synthesis) was chosen as it doesn't look quite reminiscent of anything I can recall, but it may well be fine.
Swarm Guardians get "Zerg armor"....??? This should be Zerg Flyer Carapace.
Similar troubles for armour and shields for Corsairs, Dark Archons and Arbiters.
On September 22 2012 02:17 Kabel wrote:
The current version of Fungal Growth in Starbow deals no damage but slows ALL units in its area of effect by 50%. Both move and attack speed. (You can hit your own units) It lasts 15 seconds. On September 22 2012 02:33 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
Okay, it definitely changed then! [...Content]
What was wrong with the previous version (28 damage, 38 to armoured, 50% slowing effect)? On September 22 2012 02:47 Kabel wrote:
Never had a version that dealt damage and slowed in Starbow
The version I saw in a previous replay and that I am now testing on Starbow Match Point on NA at least claims that's what it does. The slowing effect hits your own units as well and is a 50% speed reduction on drones, queens off creep too, but on creep they drop from (rounding off to SCII decimals) 0.94(+1.56) to 0.94(+1.09), so they get the full on creep bonus, but it instead claims that they get that TOTAL through maintaining their normal base speed (when it is actually halved) and getting a reduced on creep bonus (when they actually get it in full). In actual fact, testing shows that it doesn't deal any damage, but your ability tooltip still says it does.
Frenzy and Maelstrom cost 200/100 to upgrade, this is inconsistent with the cost of all other upgrades and, I believe, all technologies, in that it does not cost the same amount of gas and minerals.
I know it's not used much, but I miss Contaminate.  That option should always be there, I think. 125 energy and the 50/50 overseer morph cost meant that it could be used more often at any given gas cost than when they were twice the price to morph but required only 75 energy, but it meant you could only get it later, so you couldn't rush to contaminate factories or anything like that.
@Roaches, screw them, please. 
Is there a way to play this other than searching the Arcade every time? What if I want to play against the AI without using Multiplayer (through "Versus AI", so I can use cheats for quick money to test things with)?
List the duration of Dark Swarm. There may be others that were missed, like Frenzy, Void Armour (or whatever the protection spell is called).
Fix the tooltips for many icons, such as that of the 'Roach Warren', that medic Energize, Duality Charge, Matrix, Nerve Jammer and anything else I missed.
Wraith Cloak can simply share the name "Cloaking Field", no? I think you can call it Wraith Cloak in the editor but then make it display Cloaking Field as the ability name (shown on buttons/icons and such)
Corsairs attack at 0.46, by my reckoning it should be 0.45.
Reavers attack at 3.41, by my reckoning it should be 3.375
You have Archons' attack range at only 2 again despite the attack rate being 1.75. The BW equivalent would be 1.25, just in case you're unaware. (22 frames was either 22.2222 or that's what they probably intended, as 22.2222÷(16÷0.9*)=1.25
*17.7777 frames per second is the BW-equivalent frame rate for Normal SCII)
Arbiter attack rate was 2.53125 in BW (SCII equivalent, that is), but I always thought they should have dealt a bit more than 10 damage or fired faster. 10 to everything even at this attack rate is probably fine.
Science Vessels, do they move at 2.75 by default in the editor? The BW equivalent is 2.8125 as far as I can tell.
225 life for Vikings that only cost 25 more gas might be too much? Do they still deal splash damage with their air attack? (I thought I read that you had that at one point)
I don't understand why anyone would get Immortals when they cost 100/200, fire at 1.85 instead of 1.45, seem to only cap damage at 20 rather than 10 (and of course only while shields are active) and have no Roaches or Marauders to deal with.
Warp Gate tech only adds 5 seconds to the build time of Templar while it adds 10 to the build time of Zealots and Stalkers. Is this intentional?
(Edited for better formatting)
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On September 28 2012 21:23 Kabel wrote:
@Roach
Making it become a spellcaster sounds a bit over the top.
Making it become a base raider will never work in practice, at least not as you describe it SmileZerg. Mutalisks are more effective for hit and run attacks and besides, as soon as Protoss and Terran get a cannon or turret up at their bases, there is no way Roaches will move underground to the worker line, unburrow, raid the workers and escape. Same goes on the open field. An observer or a Science Vessel prevents that from happening to your army. Besides, Infestors are much better as base and army raiders, since you can move burrowed, throw Infested Terrans and escape. Without loosing any units that costs resources. Or maybe the Roaches could snipe some units out of position, but getting a major surpise attack underneath the feets of the enemy army sounds unlikely. But again, mutalisks are excellent at picking of units out of position.
Furthermore, making them morph from Zerglings and require Infestation pit is just artificial respiration for the unit. Fancy stuff that changes nothing with the unit itself or the way the unit is played. It will still likely be a tough unit you just clump up with your army and attack. That must not be wrong in itself, but we already have Hydralisks, Zerglings and Ultralisks for that. But I do like the fact that they in some way can become a "underground" unit.
The only thing that makes the Roach unique compared to other Zerg units is their decent HP and their overall effectivness in all match-ups in all stages of the game. One way to actually make them have a role in the game:
- Require Lair
- More expensive and with higher supply cost (To further seperate them from Hydralisks)
- Good HP and maybe have a rapid regeneration
- Moves faster while burrowed than on land.
- Will function like a unit that in mid game can absord damage quite well for Zerg, but do not deal so much damage themselves. Hydras, Zerglings, Banelings and Lurkers are damage dealer but have little life and armor.
On the other hand, this will just make them into a mid-game cheaper Ultralisk with the absurd benefit of moving faster burrowed than on land.. ^^
Damn, you make good points about Mutalisks and Infestors.
I agree that the Zergling Morph and Infestation Pit requirements don't help change the way you play the unit and do not justify its existence by themselves, but I do think they would be good additions once we manage to find a way to make Roaches interesting on the field.
I also can see the concern that they could overlap with Ultralisks if we aren't careful. But then again, Ultralisks can not only absorb huge amounts of damage, but dish it out as well, whereas the consensus on the Roach is that it should be very bad at dealing damage but good at taking it.
I'll continue to think on this guy.
@Corsairs
People request energy bar. That is so ugly. I like when casters have energy and non-casters don´t. If I could I would remove the energy bar from Wraiths too >.<
I disagree, there are plenty of units with energy that wouldn't be considered 'casters' i.e. Battlecruisers, Phoenix, Medivacs, BW Shield Batteries.
Like I said it increases possible interactions between units, like using Ghosts to nullify Corsairs with EMP.
I also liked the idea of capping them at 100 energy, there aren't enough units in this game with different maximum energy costs and it helps lend itself to the unit being more of a combat ship with a spell than an actual caster.
EDIT: Not happy about the Fungal Growth changes. With Banelings AND Lurkers in the game, we really don't need another source of AoE damage. I fear this will bring back the ridiculous mass Infestor playstyle of SC2 which made the unit so hated. Why use Banes, Lurkers or Scourge when you have a spell that hits ground AND air for area damage and slows them at the same time, on a unit which is fast, can burrow-move and is always available due to Hive requirements? Sure there are some advantages to these other units over Fungal Growth but they don't outweigh its sheer versatility.
The Infestor should be a sneaky support caster, this is going to turn it into another blindly massed damage dealer. Please reconsider.
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That's actually my point, it's way too fucking good. Lurkers are supposed to be the space holding defensive unit. We DO NOT WANT to see Starbow Zerg devolve into the turtling mass Infestor mess that they are in SC2. This change is horrible.
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On September 29 2012 08:03 SmileZerg wrote:
That's actually my point, it's way too fucking good. Lurkers are supposed to be the space holding defensive unit. We DO NOT WANT to see Starbow Zerg devolve into the turtling mass Infestor mess that they are in SC2. This change is horrible.
You dont even play this game. We cant take your comments seriously.
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EPT
