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Solution:
Remove sair gravity beam or add upgrade to fleet beacon, tweak stats of archons so they will be worse vs hydras and better vs lings (faster atkspeed and armored subtype), move hydras speed to hatch tech, nerf cannons hps.
The gravity beam, archons and other units in the game aren't the reason Hydras are lacking and we shoudn't be looking to nerf other units to compensate for the fact Hydra's are not strong enough. Hydra's hp is perfectly fine it's just their natural attack damage is petty and that's what needs to be fixed. Hydras are still going to be useless vs all early game aggression. Hydras vs Corsairs Hydras should be able to send the corsairs away if theyre greater in number so it doesn't matter when they have gravity beam the Hydras should be able to stand their ground and they can't. Fix the damage and all else is fine.
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I wish there was more people playing NA >.<;; or i wish i had an eu acc to play as well... maybe ill get 2 things of hots when it comes out >.<
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I still exist, just been super stacked by homework and having fun being really sick.
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On September 26 2012 10:37 Canhanrah wrote:
I wish there was more people playing NA >.<;; or i wish i had an eu acc to play as well... maybe ill get 2 things of hots when it comes out >.<
We should have global play (like d3) in HOTS.
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On September 26 2012 23:02 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 10:37 Canhanrah wrote:
I wish there was more people playing NA >.<;; or i wish i had an eu acc to play as well... maybe ill get 2 things of hots when it comes out >.< We should have global play (like d3) in HOTS.
lag seems to be a bigger issue in sc2 than d3 i would think since you arnt playing against another person >.<
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http://drop.sc/258129
40 minute PvP Nexus First vs 4Gate openings. Shows the economy speed and the difficulty of pulling off a heavy 1 base play. Diamond vs Masters player.
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Thanks for replay. Gonna check it soon.
We are playing on EU now if anyone wanna join to either play or observe. Join the Starbow chat channel!
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This shows the severe weakness in scourges. The amount of scourges I had should have been able to counter the voidrays easily. We need scourges to be fixed or access to corruptors for when this happens. @EDIT: Better access  too expensive/slow to make in critical situations if scourges can't live up to it.
http://drop.sc/258136
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-Void Shell should be removed
-To anti zerg
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Watched game, and loled hard. First you had barelly any and raged and in second engagement you wasted all of them at 3. You know you cant amove them?
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So Scourges are meant to suicide eachother and not be like an aireal baneling then? You don't have to micro split your banes and you didn't have to worry about scourge friendly fire in broodwar, I assumed the same applied to this.
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They never were supposed to be aerial baneling. They are as oposite as its possible for suicide unit. Banes work better and better with numbers and you have to micro them less and less. With scourges you have to work much harder to make many of them work, otherwise they will all suicide at one unit, cause they can overkill (they deal damage bit after atacking). Clonning (way of microing them to split them between targets) was esential to use them effectivly in BW.
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I agree, Scourge and Banelings are completely different animals and should remain as such. Being aerial units they would be waay too easy to micro without overkill.
Now, back to Hydra fixes:
After mulling it over I agree with the idea of 20% speed increase on creep so Hydras can go from 2 (2.4) to 3 (3.6) after upgrade. But that upgrade needs to be Hatch tech, no question. However, perhaps we might think about reducing the creep bonus of ALL Zerg units (except Queens of course) from 30% to 20% to maintain consistency, while buffing base speed by the differential to compensate?
As for damage, I think the correct base value is 9 (50% increase). Hydras currently do the same damage vs Light targets as Marines, but they cost 50% more minerals AND gas AND tech AND can overkill and don't have stim. At the very least their damage should reflect their mineral cost by comparison. So yes, 50% increase.
However we can't just remove the Armored bonus entirely. Stalkers are too cost effective against Hydralisks at the moment, and that's with them doing 10 damage per shot. I would tack on another +3 vs Armored, for a total of 12. This will also help with Cannons.
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On September 26 2012 08:01 ArkussSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +Solution:
Remove sair gravity beam or add upgrade to fleet beacon, tweak stats of archons so they will be worse vs hydras and better vs lings (faster atkspeed and armored subtype), move hydras speed to hatch tech, nerf cannons hps. The gravity beam, archons and other units in the game aren't the reason Hydras are lacking and we shoudn't be looking to nerf other units to compensate for the fact Hydra's are not strong enough. Hydra's hp is perfectly fine it's just their natural attack damage is petty and that's what needs to be fixed. Hydras are still going to be useless vs all early game aggression. Hydras vs Corsairs Hydras should be able to send the corsairs away if theyre greater in number so it doesn't matter when they have gravity beam the Hydras should be able to stand their ground and they can't. Fix the damage and all else is fine.
I think if we follow bw's hydra design the hydra should be a unit that dominates if there is no aoe damage, I think keeping their hp low is important because we don't want them to become zerg's marauders.
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@Corsairs
I don´t think its a good idea to make gravity beam an upgrade. Its something you want early to shock the opponent and it is most useful for harass within the first 10 minutes of the game, before there are turrets or spore crawlers everywhere. Gravity beam is what makes Corsairs useful in all match ups now. I even see them in TvP with good effect. Disruption web in BW felt missplaced and was rarely used. It fits much better as Nerve Jammer on the Vessel.
But I do think that the cooldown on Gravity beam is too short. Its currently 30 seconds and it can be spammed quite a lot. I will increase it to 45 seconds. You go in, lift up the enemy, snipe it and escapes.. return again after 45 seconds.. Right now you can hover your corsairs over the enemy since the cooldown is so short. And the cooldown is almost similar to the build time of Hydras, which means that its very easy to get a "corsair-grip" over Zergs hydra protection. As soon as they pop, lift them up and kill them.. When the next wave pops, lift up and kill them etc...
@Cannons
I like Chrono boost on cannons. Players can "trick" the Protoss to waste them when not needed. Attack and back away. It creates fun situations. But I do think they are too strong. Its the strongest and most massable defence in the game, especailly vs Zerg. Zerg can´t break it until they get Dark Swarm. I can either lower the HP or lower the attack speed. I prefer the latter. If Cannons have a bit slower attack speed it gets more important to use chrono boost on them. (And cannons can be "catched" off-guard, when the enemy is not paying attention)
@Planetary fortress
Combat in Starbow are more centered around skirmish and smaller engagements. You rarely attack with a 200/200 army into the enemy planetary fortress anymore. Terran already have strong SCVs, stronger siege tanks and spider mines. Their defence can become very strong if you set it up properly. Which is a good thing! Terran can get uber-defence if they work a bit for it. The planetary is not a work. You just upgrade it and it can hold of an entire enemy army by itself. Many players want me to remove Planetary fortress, but I like the option between Planetary and Orbital. I will instead remove the splash damage from it. It deals its normal damage to 1 target at a time. It can not stop an enemy army, but it can support your siege tanks, turrets and bunkers who together makes up the defence.
@Hydras
Hatchery upgrades for speed + range seems ok from what we seen today, so I will let it remain there. But I still think a small damage buff can be healthy for the hydra. They are still bad vs light air units. Wraiths, corsairs and mutalisks destroys them. I consider to increase their base damage from 6 to 8.
They will bettter vs everything, even vs marines + zealots + archons + light air units. But they will still not be cost effective vs marines, zealots and zerglings.. Just not as absurdly bad. I have experimented in the editor. With 8 damage, 8 zealots beat 10 hydras with ease. 6 zealots vs 10 hydras barely win.. (without any micro) And thats good. Zealots etc shall beat them, unless Zerg works with his micro, but right now Hydras are just beaten too easily EVEN with speed upgrade micro.
I consider if the +damage vs armor is needed? Yes Stalkers are very strong vs Hydras right now, but that is because I made Stalkers deal their base damage of 10 vs everything but at a faster attack speed. (They were really strong with extra damage vs armored + blink on top of tanks..) Instead they became more versatile vs mutas, bio etc.. I have not decided if I shall keep it or not.
Anyways, we have an other thing to consider. In BW Hydras were the battering ram who broke the Protoss cannons at front. Now we have Banelings. I don´t think Hydras shall be too strong vs cannons since that is the purpose of Banelings. maybe early baneling bust + support of Hydras can be a way for mid game aggression? The problem is not that Cannons don´t die from Hydras. The problem is that cannons kill Hydras sooo fast with chrono boost :p
So.. What do you all think? Hydras remain as they are but with only base damage of 8 and no bonus vs anything. (IF you insist on a bonus, how about +2 damage vs armored?)
@Scourge
One problem with Scourge control in Starbow compared to BW is the info panel at the bottom center of the screen. In BW you saw 12 units icons. Here you see 24. It was much easier to shift + split the portraits of the scourges and you could separate them from the other units. Here they get very messed up with everything else since unlimited selection is available. Maybe its just me, but they feel much harder to control.
In BW, if you A-moved with your Scourges towards the enemy several could blow up on the same target. And that was a waste. With proper micro you could be really cost efficient since only 2 was enough to destroy almost any air unit in the game. I have recreated the same conditions in Starbow, but if it for any reasons proves to not work well here, I will rework the unit. Maybe players need to get used to them. (Including me)
@Overlords/Overseers
Ok Danko, I bring this one up for discussion.. Danko really wants me to remove Overssers and give back detection to Overlords. (Even more BW stuff in this mod.. -_- ) Give me your arguments.
I personally like that Zerg does not have auto-detection all over his base. Often Zerg is greedy and builds no Overseers just in case.. and when the opponent attacks with DTs or Wraiths, the Zerg spawns Overseers in panic.. The enemy will have a 30 seconds window of time to deal damage before the Overseers pop. And sometimes Zerg makes unnecessary many Overssers, which is an important factor of the mental gameplay. (Force the enemy to over-respond to your moves, which makes him hurt himself more. Another example is to build too many Zerglings in response to a bunker rush, too many Goliaths vs Carriers, too many Immortals vs Siege tanks etc. )
Since we have unlimited selection, I imagine that Zerg will just float a huge bunch of Overlords along with his army and A-move with it all. No DTs or Wraiths or Lurkers can hurt his units and there is no way to snipe all that detection. If you wanted to bring 12 Overlords into combat in BW, that required a bit of work. You had to control them well so their control group not went too far away from your army. Here in Starbow, which is based on the SC2 engine, you will have everything in a perfect formation without any extra micro required. Auto detection for everyone! No... I see no way how this could improve anything at all. But if anyone does, please tell me.
And why did I remove the spells from Overseers? I did it a long time ago when I was about to build other spells for the Zerg race. So I "emptied" the spellcasters to rearrange them again. Obviously I did not know better at that time. And now I am used to not have Changeling or contaminate in the game anymore. Maybe they can come back. But that will be after I solved the problem below...
@ Swarm Guardian
Oh well.. Dark Swarm.. Swarm Guardian.. What can be said? This issue must be solved. -_-
Problem #1: Swarm Guardian only has 1 real spell and that spell is extremely hated.
Problem #2: Swarm Guardian is a flying unit so you can cast Dark Swarm anywhere you want very easy.
problem #3: There are no other units to give Dark Swarm to. (Yes, Infestor and Queens have been suggested. But I am very doubtful about that.. It smells fishy.. Both SC2 Queens and Infestors are good now. )
Problem #4: Is even Problem#2 a problem? How can it become a non-problem and instead become a better aspect of the game?
@ The psychological question of the evening
When Terran or Protoss players try Starbow on EU, they often like it. ("Whoa, you have actually made the races fun!") When SC2 Zerg players tries Starbow.. they never return to play it again.. The only one I know that plays Zerg as a main race in SC2, and who actually enjoys it in Starbow is Danko... O_o
Why is the Starbow Zerg scaring away Zerg players?
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On September 27 2012 07:01 Kabel wrote:
@Corsairs
I don´t think its a good idea to make gravity beam an upgrade. Its something you want early to shock the opponent. Gravity beam is what makes Corsairs useful in all match ups now. I even see them in TvP with good effect. Disruption web in BW felt missplaced and was rarely used. It fits much better as Nerve Jammer on the Vessel.
But I do think that the cooldown on Gravity beam is too short. Its currently 30 seconds and it can be spammed quite a lot. I will increase it to 45 seconds. You go in, lift up the enemy, snipe it and escapes.. return again after 45 seconds.. Right now you can hover your corsairs over the enemy since the cooldown is so short.
I could agree with this, although I would prefer it if you gave Corsairs an energy bar like they had in BW, and like the Phoenix had. It would allow for more interactions such as EMP/Feedback to disable them.
@Cannons
I like Chrono boost on cannons. Players can "trick" the Protoss to waste them when not needed. Attack and back away. It creates fun situations. But I do think they are too strong. Its the strongest and most massable defence in the game, especailly vs Zerg. Zerg can´t break it until they get Dark Swarm. I can either lower the HP or lower the attack speed. I prefer the latter. If Cannons have a bit slower attack speed it gets more important to use chrono boost on them. (And cannons can be "catched" off-guard, when the enemy is not paying attention)
Definitely agree. Chrono Boost on Cannons was an excellent idea and nerfing the attack speed to encourage its use is a great solution.
@Planetary fortress
Combat in Starbow are more centered around skirmish and smaller engagements. You rarely attack with a 200/200 army into the enemy planetary fortress anymore. Terran already have strong SCVs, stronger siege tanks and spider mines. Their defence can become very strong if you set it up properly. Which is a good thing! Terran can get uber-defence if they work a bit for it. The planetary is not a work. You just upgrade it and it can hold of an entire enemy army by itself. Many players want me to remove Planetary fortress, but I like the option between Planetary and Orbital. I will instead remove the splash damage from it. It deals its normal damage to 1 target at a time. It can not stop an enemy army, but it can support your siege tanks, turrets and bunkers who together makes up the defence.
I love this because it removes the weirdness of PF cannons not dealing friendly fire damage.
@Hydras
Hatchery upgrades for speed + range seems ok from what we seen today, so I will let it remain there. But I still think a small damage buff can be healthy for the hydra. They are still bad vs light air units. Wraiths, corsairs and mutalisks destroys them. I consider to increase their base damage from 6 to 8.
They will bettter vs everything, even vs marines + zealots + archons + light air units. But they will still not be cost effective vs marines, zealots and zerglings.. Just not as absurdly bad. I have experimented in the editor. With 8 damage, 8 zealots beat 10 hydras with ease. 6 zealots vs 10 hydras barely win.. (without any micro) And thats good. Zealots etc shall beat them, unless Zerg works with his micro, but right now Hydras are just beaten too easily EVEN with speed upgrade micro.
Like I said I think the damage should be 9. Mathematically it makes sense, given the cost/DPS of Marines and the Hydralisks comparative drawbacks. Zealots already counter Zerglings, they should not be cost-effective against Hydra's too.
I consider if the +damage vs armor is needed? Yes Stalkers are very strong vs Hydras right now, but that is because I made Stalkers deal their base damage of 10 vs everything but at a faster attack speed. (They were really strong with extra damage vs armored + blink on top of tanks..) Instead they became more versatile vs mutas, bio etc.. I have not decided if I shall keep it or not.
I've been thinking about Stalkers myself, since I heard some complaints from Protoss players that they aren't as microable in Starbow with the faster attack speed and lower damage.
I think a good solution would be to increase the base damage and the attack cooldown by 40%, resulting in 14 damage at a firing rate of 1.75. Stalkers will go back to dealing high burst damage, but maintain the same DPS. This encourages kiting and makes quick blink hit-and-runs more effective.
I'll explain how that ties into the dynamic with Hydralisks. I thought about it some more, and I think Stalkers should be able to soft-counter them with proper micro. Why? Because Zerglings should generally beat Stalkers. If Stalkers do more damage per shot at a lower attack speed, they'll waste damage overkilling Zerglings more and lend more viability to this idea.
So, we can remove the bonus damage vs Armored from Hydras altogether (which is less of a nerf if we increase the base damage to 9 rather than 8). Ideally this will lead to early-midgame engagements in PvZ having the following positional dynamic:
Zealots attempt to tank/block the lings while the Stalkers kite and give fire support from the back. Hydras attempt to kite the Zealots and pull them out of position while the lings juke back and forth so they can maneuver behind them and surround the Stalkers. For either side to be effective they will need to make a combination of units - massing pure ling or Hydra, or pure Zealot or Stalker, will put them at a disadvantage against a mixed composition from the other side.
Again for the game to function this way, Hydra's need to be very cost-efficient versus Zealots but bad against Stalkers, and vice versa for lings.
Anyways, we have an other thing to consider. In BW Hydras were the battering ram who broke the Protoss cannons at front. Now we have Banelings. I don´t think Hydras shall be too strong vs cannons since that is the purpose of Banelings. maybe early baneling bust + support of Hydras can be a way for mid game aggression? The problem is not that Cannons don´t die from Hydras. The problem is that cannons kill Hydras sooo fast with chrono boost :p
I'm okay with this, I think we should wait to see what happens with the reduced cannon attack speed before coming to conclusions anyway.
@Scourge
One problem with Scourge control in Starbow compared to BW is the info panel at the bottom center of the screen. In BW you saw 12 units icons. Here you see 24. It was much easier to shift + split the portraits of the scourges and you could separate them from the other units. Here they get very messed up with everything else since unlimited selection is available. Maybe its just me, but they feel much harder to control.
In BW, if you A-moved with your Scourges towards the enemy several could blow up on the same target. And that was a waste. With proper micro you could be really cost efficient since only 2 was enough to destroy almost any air unit in the game. I have recreated the same conditions in Starbow, but if it for any reasons proves to not work well here, I will rework the unit. Maybe players need to get used to them. (Including me)
Yeah I'd say give it time, let players mess around with Scourge more. They probably just need to learn how to use them again.
@Overlords/Overseers
Ok Danko, I bring this one up for discussion.. Danko really wants me to remove Overssers and give back detection to Overlords. (Even more BW stuff in this mod.. -_- ) Give me your arguments.
I personally like that Zerg does not have auto-detection all over their base. Often Zerg is greedy and builds no Overseers just in case.. and when the opponent attacks with DTs or Wraiths, the Zerg spawns Overseers in panic.. The enemy will have a 30 seconds window of time to deal damage before the Overseers pop. And sometimes Zerg overmakes Overssers, which is an important factor of the gameplay. (Make the enemy to over-respond to your moves, which hurts him in the long run.)
Since we have unlimited selection, I imagine that Zerg will just float a huge bunch of Overlords along with his army and A-move with it all. No DTs or Wraiths or Lurkers can hurt his units and there is no way to snipe all that detection. If you wanted to bring 12 Overlords into combat in BW, that required a bit of work. You had to control them well so their control group not went too far away from your army. Here in SC2 you will have everything in perfect formation without any extra micro required. Auto detection for everyone! No... I see no way how this could improve anything at all. But if anyone does, please tell me.
And why did I remove the spells from Overseers? I did it a long time ago when I was about to build other spells for the Zerg race. So I "emptied" the spellcasters to rearrange them again. Obviously I did not know better at that time. And now I am used to not have Changeling or contaminate in the game anymore. Maybe they can come back. But that will be after I solved the problem below...
My vote is to keep the Overseer, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I can do without Changelings, but I would like to see Contaminate come back. Maybe it can find room on the Infestor though...? Discussion for another time, methinks.
@ Swarm Guardian
Oh well.. Dark Swarm.. Swarm Guardian.. What can be said? This issue must be solved. -_-
Problem #1: Swarm Guardian only has 1 real spell and that spell is extremely hated.
Problem #2: Swarm Guardian is a flying unit so you can cast Dark Swarm anywhere you want very easy.
problem #3: There are no other units to give Dark Swarm to. (Yes, Infestor and Queens have been suggested. But I am very doubtful about that.. It smells fishy.. Both SC2 Queens and Infestors are good now. )
Problem #4: Is even Problem#2 a problem? How can it become a non-problem and instead become a better aspect of the game?
#1: I agree that having only one real spell is a problem. The fact that it's hated is not, only non-Zerg hate it. They can suck it up. It was balanced in BW, we will balance it in Starbow.
#2: This is also an issue, which is solved by putting Dark Swarm on the Queen.
#3: See above. I still emphatically insist that Dark Swarm MUST be a Queen spell. I have not seen a single argument against doing it except for the fact that it 'feels weird' to SC2 players. But we have other things in Starbow that feel weird at first and make sense after you experience it in-game. Nexus Recall, burrow-move Hydra/lings, Medic Shield. Trust me, I really think this one will work.
#4: This becomes irrelevant if we use the Queen solution.
@ The psychological question of the evening
When Terran or Protoss players try Starbow on EU, they often like it. ("Whoa, you have actually made the races fun!") When SC2 Zerg players tries Starbow.. they never return to play it again.. The only one I know that plays Zerg as a main race at master level in SC2, and who actually enjoys it in Starbow is Danko... O_o
Why does the Starbow Zerg scare away Zerg players?
First guess, larvae. SC2 Zerg players are probably still not used to needing extra macro hatcheries, and BW players would probably be turned off by Inject. Hybridizing the system will take some time to get used to.
Second guess, not as much cool new stuff as the others. Terran got completely reworked to be basically the BW version of the race, which was always a lot cooler. Zerg got T1 Hydras and Lurkers back, which is great, but since Hydras apparently still suck right now it's kind of dragging down the excitement on that front.
If I had a decent computer available I would be playing Zerg daily to give you more specific feedback and demonstrate how I think the race should be played now. Unfortunately, it's going to still be awhile before I can do that.
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Hey guys!
Played starbow for the first time today and some of you guys already know me (darkdev ingame). Had more fun with this today than I have had with starcraft 2 for a long long time. Both economy based changes and the new + old units makes it much more interesting than sc2/hots at its current gameplay.
Of course I have no right to say anything about balance yet with the small amount of gameplay I have had, but I just wanted to share my thoughts from the first day.
@ Wraiths
When a-moved they focus fire ground before air which feels weird and absolutely not useful. They works as a anti air units with a low dmg harras ground attack, so focus firing ground adds a lot of unnecessary micro which should be spent on other units instead.
@Stim
The feeling I got was that this is pretty op as of now. As long as they marine don't die, the stim will give them insane amount of dps (or the dustin browder way to say it > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKZlcgOzi_E) long enough to work too effect-fully against normal units (lings, zealots, stalker etc.). I'm don't know about the design decision made to stim, but I think that the standard one could be more balanced.
@Medics
I had a really hard time to use medics shield ability, which could have definitely change some battles (and overall terran strategies). I'll be looking forward to explore more on this matter.
@bio vs mech vs biomech
This is more of a question than a change, but what is the design decision with those 3 different terran army strategy? I haven't played brood war like most of you have, so the impression I got today is that mech was the core army terran had and that most things got balanced around mech. Will things be balanced like that or what is the general thought?
I think that giving terran the possibility to go as much of both worlds that can possible works, because it adds much more choice to the build terran can go while it also give each match up more ways they can play out. Which in terms create more excitement for viewers and more customization for the players. Of course how effective they are should differ in each matchup and current time during play. Bio is more of an early aggression high dmg low hp type and while mech goes for the long game directly. But while bio works less over time they should have a tech path where they incorporate mech into the main bio army so It can stand on its own better, like standard marine tank in sc2... Enough of me ranting about this for now.
I'll probably more to say after playing this a lot more, but this is what I have been thinking about for the first day. I also hope we get some more zerg players, because tvz was for me the hardest matchup currently which would need to get explored more I think. Always fun to try to get better at the things you're bad at.
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@ Swarm Guardian
Oh well.. Dark Swarm.. Swarm Guardian.. What can be said? This issue must be solved. -_-
Problem #1: Swarm Guardian only has 1 real spell and that spell is extremely hated.
Problem #2: Swarm Guardian is a flying unit so you can cast Dark Swarm anywhere you want very easy.
problem #3: There are no other units to give Dark Swarm to. (Yes, Infestor and Queens have been suggested. But I am very doubtful about that.. It smells fishy.. Both SC2 Queens and Infestors are good now. )
Problem #4: Is even Problem#2 a problem? How can it become a non-problem and instead become a better aspect of the game?
Dark Swarm is perfectly fine the way it is imo. Protoss can cast storm inside the dark swarm and micro away from it. Since Dark Swarm is hive tech and protoss has access to observers they can scout the "roach warren" required for Swarm Guardians and begin to make Dark Archons. Using Dark Archons to feedback Swarm Guardians will nullify Dark Swarm from even being casted. Theres also the option of simply moving out of it....
As for Terran, if I'm not mistaken tank splash should still do the splash damage in Dark Swarm (in broodwar the direct hit did nothing but the splash damage did do damage) and stimming bio out of Dark Swarm is fairly easy. Science Vessels can emp Swarm Guardians before the engagement even takes place again nullifying Dark Swarm completely. In the event Dark Swarm lands over bio, terrans should have firebats in the mix and can keep them in the Dark Swarm while the rest of the bio army retreats. Irradicating the Swarm Guardians or other units that engage in the Dark Swarm will also work.
For ZvZ, nothing is op/broken in a mirror match therefore there is no arguement to be made 
@ The psychological question of the evening
When Terran or Protoss players try Starbow on EU, they often like it. ("Whoa, you have actually made the races fun!") When SC2 Zerg players tries Starbow.. they never return to play it again.. The only one I know that plays Zerg as a main race in SC2, and who actually enjoys it in Starbow is Danko... O_o
Why is the Starbow Zerg scaring away Zerg players?
I'm a BroodWar Zerg since 2001 and an SC2 Zerg since release. In Starbow I have decided to main protoss. My personal reasons? I find that Zerg is just too slow to start off economically (could just be the mod itself) and I have a hard time having enough larva to do anything (3 bases with 2 macro hatchs and queens and still always seems like my larva is at 0)
Ontop of the slow feel to Zerg I also struggle to find a good unit composition. Hydras are very weak (btw I support the raw damage increase to 8, at least to test) and infestors are very situational and almost useless in most cases (infested terran harass is situational and neural is only worth using on end game units/archons). This really restricts compositions. I've been playing with ling/bling/lurker vs protoss or ling/ultra/swarm. ZvZ right now without a proper Hydra is just muta wars which is just plain silly :p
I'm switching out of protoss and back to Zerg because our NA community has way too many high tier protoss players as it is. Learning Starbow Zerg is probably the most difficult of the 3 races because our SC2 functions got hit the most of the 3 (inject nerf, no fungal, corruptors are hive tech, broodlords have no broodlings, no roach, hydras aren't op vs gateway, no nydus.....). So really Zerg being the most difficult to play will naturally make it least played race. I don't know about EU but on NA we actually have some zergs and right now only 1 Terran who's barely active :/ december constantly switchs races but yeah we need terrans on NA lol. ZvZ or ZvP main matchup NA.
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Did some testing with scourges. Scourges don't splash eachother (what we on NA believed to be happening) and it's just excessive overkill >.> time to practice scourge micro
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EPT
