EPT[A] Starbow - Page 88
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
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bole
Serbia164 Posts
 so far great game keep on good work.. and spreed game more on forums.. to have more ppl playing becous this is future.. !!! | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
I dont like Stalkers at all, SC2 or StarBow. They just feel wrong for Starcraft IMO. You guys say that TvP is the best matchup currently but when I watch Stalker vs Vulture battles it makes me cringe a bit (on the other hand, marine/medic vs Lurker gave me chills, it just beautiful to watch). I'm just talking from a pure aesthetic point of view. I know you've got a lot on your mind Kabel with evolving/fixing/adding to this mod so I'm just trying to diverge your attention to this issue aswell. While it is not in any means a priority, you should know that there are guys like me who enjoy watching StarBow matches on Youtube, who dont get into the techical stuff you guys discuss here, and would just like this mod to be the best it can be spectator wise. Also I would just mention here the still not satisfying pathing thats, while a step in the right direction, a huge drawback to this being the "new SC2" and it saddens me that you are taking the Dustin Browder view on this and neglect it when it's mentioned. If I were in your place I'd kick Stalkers out entirely or make them a niche mobile harrass unit with some random abillity (alongside Blink) that makes them good at harrassing in small numbers. I'd fill the empty spot it creates with Immortals who would lose their shield abbilty and tweak a lot of their stats to make them an allrounded generalist unit built from Gateways, costly in supply and resources to make them low in numbers (more so than Dragoons). IMO thats a lot more like what Protoss is supossed to be. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
It feels like the majority of opinion in that scourge are a bad unit in this MU. Canhr, Horus, me, and I'm sure others all hold this consensus. The major problem being that it simply doesn't do enough splash damage or splash range with its use. Watch this replay for reference (thanks Horus): http://drop.sc/257141 We both immediately go for Muta/ling play because its simply the only sane logical choice in this MU. Muta destroys hydra without a problem, and as soon as you get a sizable muta advantage everything else, even scourge is only a slight hindrance including queens and spores. Makes the matchup extremely boring. We've had games where both players simply ignored mutas and went for ling, hydra, lurker and it was a pretty exciting match compared to the muta war where terrain is irrelevant. This isn't another reason why Hydras are bad is it? Woops!!!! If scourge are fixed, it should give ZvZ a much better feel, but the all important spire is still required for a standard game. I'd rather see hydras be able to ward off Muta's like marines are able to so ground isn't just pure ling and bling. Thoughts? | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On September 24 2012 07:15 SmileZerg wrote: What do you dislike about Stalkers, exactly? While they might not be as cool as the original Dragoons they're not a bad unit by any stretch. You haven't really given any reason to make such a huge change other than "you don't like them". Well the thing is I didnt have much of a story to begin with. Just wanted to say what I dislike about TvP. I cant really put my finger on why I dislike Stalkers. They're too generic? Not interesting? OK at everything, not good at anything. I said i dont like them from a pure aesthetic point of view. Sort of like how everyone hates the Warhound. I'm not expecting Kabel to pull of such a huge change, was just wondering if anyone else didnt like them/tought the "dragoons" might provide a more interesting dynamic vs vultures/mines. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
scourges aren't meant to counter mutas their meant to counter battle cruiser/carrier and target priority air units like science vessel and they do that just fine imo. @EDIT: Scourge is heavily flawed. They suicide eachother on impact and have a very, very small splash radius. I think the unit just needs to be fixed. Should react like an air baneling not a bomb that kills its own units | ||
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GoodSirTets
Canada200 Posts
OHMYGODTHISISSOFUN Love the mod so far! Keep it up! I noticed that as Z you can't cancel building production. Is this intentional and for what reason? Also, is there a way to change build and abilitie hotkeys for starbow exclusive units? | ||
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6vx52.jpg) The elephant in the room... Lets look at the Hydra in Starbow.. They can not: - Pressure the opponent - bunkers, siege tanks & cannons stop them unless you get Dark Swarm or a huge mass of hydras. To get that you need to already be far ahead in the game. - Defend - Early pushes of Zealots and Marines & Medics eat them so hard. - Map control - Zerglings & mutalisks does that so much better - Anti air - Wraiths, Corsairs and mutalisks kill Hydras easily. - Tank damage - 80 HP is not much.. They die from 6 zealot hits.. 2 Zerglings have 70 Hp for 50 minerals.. - Deal damage - 6 damage vs all. 10 vs armored. Ok they are decent vs armored targets.. Only a few units in the game are armored though.. - Micro - Hydralisks are not rewarded by micro. You only micro them to back away from the enemy.. As soon as they stop to fight they die. Especially in small numbers. 6 Hydras vs 4 Zealots .. 6 Hydras vs 8 marines.. Give you an edge in the game - Hydras gives Zerg nothing that they can´t do in other better ways. One of the core units in the Zerg race is completely useless. Their only advantage and the only way I see them used: When you get a huge economic lead, you can win by massing hydras to A-move. Its not because of the Hydras themselves, its because of the economic lead.. Or to get Lurkers. Lets look at the Stalker. They actually give Protoss something. A few Stalkers with an early warp prism can with good micro do devestating things to the enemy economy. When Blink is researched they are even more rewarded by proper control. Look at Vultures - they can shoot spider mines and do hit and run attacks. They give area control and harassment. Look at the Roach. Building only a couple of them to push out early is enough to scare both Terran and Protoss in SC2. And they work in all match ups and against lots of compositions of enemy units, both in late and early game. And lets look at the Hydra again.. Zerg builds 6 hydras early on.. What can he do with them? Nothing! Giving the Hydra a proper role in the game will give a huge swing for the playability of the Zerg race. Their current stats are similar to the Brood War stats, but it feels like a different unit. In BW I actually enjoyed Hydras a lot. And they felt useful! So, lets discuss: How shall the Hydralisk be to fit into Starbow and become a true power for Zerg? | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
On September 24 2012 07:28 NukeD wrote: Well the thing is I didnt have much of a story to begin with. Just wanted to say what I dislike about TvP. I cant really put my finger on why I dislike Stalkers. They're too generic? Not interesting? OK at everything, not good at anything. I said i dont like them from a pure aesthetic point of view. Sort of like how everyone hates the Warhound. I'm not expecting Kabel to pull of such a huge change, was just wondering if anyone else didnt like them/tought the "dragoons" might provide a more interesting dynamic vs vultures/mines. You are not alone. Stalkers suck as the bread and butter unit of Protoss. Not that they suck in stats and usability, I just hate them being the main part of my army. Dragoons were gold(real gold), and felt more unique than stalkers. The way they were controlled felt different, and maybe tankier due to having less mobility than stalkers. The blink ability is cool but it looses a lot in coolness when a huge portion of your army has it. It's kinda why Storm is cool but forcefield isn't. Forcefield isn't a terrible spell, we're just all tired of seeing the sentry spam in SC2. It also doesn't fit the race well just because they're dark templar units(reason they're not golden). The main army of Protoss should be golden zealots and goons, not golden zealots and grey/dirtybronze stalkers. Dt units are for later in the game. It feels odd that you need so much tech for dark templar but dark templar inside of a machine come right away. It's like dragoons coming before zealots. This has nothing to do with gameplay, but rather just the feel of Protoss. If stalkers are to remain in the game, then they should be what DTs are, harrass type units. Units that get in and out and are fragile, but NOT units you would mass and make your main army out of. It would make sense to unlock DTs and stalkers simultaneously with a dark shrine maybe. Dragoons should be the main army of protoss. Again, I'm not concerned with balance, this is just how I feel about Protoss. I haven't really been following Starbow too closely anymore but I just wanted to let you know that I felt the same way about Stalkers. | ||
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nilsheam
United States28 Posts
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
-Movement speed as it is is fine because the Hydra has a movement speed upgrade in the hydraklisk den and our primary map control unit always has been and always will be mutalisks and/or zerglings. -Attack damage is the critical issue. Erase the standard 6 damage and 10 vs armoured and make Hydras starting at 8-9 damage. Hydras are glass cannons and needed to be treated as such. Even in BW Hydra's needed something infront of them or along side them to reach full potential and mass hydras was usually a horrible idea because they're so fragile. -The 80 health is fine. Hydras shouldnt be beefy units and 80 health is sufficient for their cost. As said in the attack damage point, hydras should rely on something infront of them or with them so they are not taking majority of the damage. I think SC2 Hydralisk is a fantastic unit that is only unable to be used because of other units in the game (i.e helion, colossus). I think the SC2 Hydralisk would be a bit over powered in Starbow since the Hydra is anti-gateway unit but if we can take the SC2 Hydra and the Starbow Hydra then bring them to a middle ground we may find the unit we need in the Zerg lineup. For now I think just buffing Hydra's base damage and removing the armoured bonus will be sufficient to make Hydra's viable. @EDIT: Stalkers are perfectly fine in Starbow imo. Stalkers are common in PvP, PvT and in a blink play vs Z. Most of my PvZ I don't use stalkers at all after the early/mid game and stick to a zealot/archon zealot/dt/ht zealot/archon/corsair play. You don't need to make stalkers with the exception of PvP. Really the Stalker has just filled the role of the Dragoon. In what matchup in broodwar did you not see Dragoons? Now our dragoons blink and have a better rate of fire :/ The SC2BW map Dragoon is garbage and would hate to see that unit added to Starbow. | ||
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Von
United States363 Posts
You are putting some of the most compelling theoretical arguments I've seen on TL - and putting them in practice, and it shows. The games are positional, they are strategic, every skirmish matters, there is depth, and no more big goofy deathballs crashing into each other. Best mod I've seen. Good job. Keep this up and someday you might have the best Starcraft ever. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
ZvP Core of zerg army in Broodwar. Solid and durable, with huge dps and good mobility. 1. Why wasnt muta/ling core of army? Opening/early game: Most of toss builds relied FFE into corsair+dt to get map control. Corsairs completly dominated air after you massed them. Answer was hydras. Overmaking corsairs was automatic lose to mass hydra. Right now you can just pick off spawning hydras one by one. Mid/late game: Zealot/archon/goon/ht. Archons completly obliterated lings and mutas. Splash+GREAT atack speed made muta/lings useless in direct combat. And hydras were doing fine vs low range archons. 2. Why hydras were dangerous early/mid game? There were no good defence vs them, nor anything what could catch them on field. Photon cannons felt like made of glass (they died in 22 atacks, right now they die in 32), goons were just joke, zealots had to wait long, long time before they could catchup to speed hydras. They were strong as offensive units and they were strong on field. Ofcourse you had to INVEST quite a bit to get these good hydras, as slow hydras as unit on their own were much worse. ZvZ They are as useful as they always were i guess. But i think that once casters are finally done (especially with accesible ensare) than we will see some hydras play. I cant belive that +1 carpace hydras wont be effective vs mutas. Add 2 lurkers and muta/ling wont be able to fight this compo imho. ZvT Vs Bio Zergs prefered muta/ling/lurker. Hydras were durable subsitute to lings but gas cost delayed so needed hive tech for too long most of the time. Vs Mech Hydras are still viable imho. They could move out faster when ovies had detection (vs mines), and busted bunkers down bit better, but i dont think lings are better in ZvMech especially with these vultures. My conclusions: Many core units and abilities/stats tweaks made lings more and hydras less viable (archon, corsair, hydra speed at lair, chrono+upgrades(speed/storm), cannons+chrono) Solution: Remove sair gravity beam or add upgrade to fleet beacon, tweak stats of archons so they will be worse vs hydras and better vs lings (faster atkspeed and armored subtype), move hydras speed to hatch tech, nerf cannons hps. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On September 26 2012 01:34 Danko__ wrote: Remove sair gravity beam or add upgrade to fleet beacon, tweak stats of archons so they will be worse vs hydras and better vs lings (faster atkspeed and armored subtype), move hydras speed to hatch tech, nerf cannons hps. Making gravity beam an upgrade seems good - give d-web or something to Corsairs tho. Archons don't need armored type, Hydras need better base dps - faster attacks seems like a good change for Archons, that will make them even better in defensive situations. Moving speed to hatch tech is already in the making, as is cannon hp. (both needed imo) Hydras should be cheap and easily massed - if you want to spend gas on midgame strength. speedwise they need to be about the same speed as unstimmed marines (maybe a bit slower) and faster than slowlots with upgrade (slower than speedlots) Strengthwise they should be a bit lower cost and damage than SC2 hydras imo, and they should be balanced to beat both unstimmed marines and stalkers of similar cost (but not zealots when not kiting). In short, make the Hydralisk the core unit, but do it in a Zerg way - cheap and powerful in numbers, adapt at fast attacking and retreating and having a power peak in midsized armies (20-40 units). | ||
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Don Pedro
Switzerland14 Posts
On September 26 2012 04:28 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: In short, make the Hydralisk the core unit, but do it in a Zerg way - cheap and powerful in numbers, adapt at fast attacking and retreating and having a power peak in midsized armies (20-40 units). agreed. | ||
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