EPTI will not change it yet, but from the games Ive seen with it, it feels kinda bad. I am considering to let the 50% movement speed remain but add back the damage again, so it really gets dangerous. But I will give it some more time before I do anything.
[A] Starbow - Page 86
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I will not change it yet, but from the games Ive seen with it, it feels kinda bad. I am considering to let the 50% movement speed remain but add back the damage again, so it really gets dangerous. But I will give it some more time before I do anything. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
What was wrong with the previous version (28 damage, 38 to armoured, 50% slowing effect)? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Pure utility vs damage. Slow vs Stun. Diffent debuffs: attack speed, armor, range ect. Instant cast vs projectile. AOE (stormlike) vs static debuff (plaguelike) vs spreading debuff (affects a few, spreads to nearby) spammable vs high damage/utility Things like range, cooldown and infestor mobility can also be considered when finding a good spot for fungal growth. | ||
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Caas
Sweden51 Posts
just been paying attention to the discussion and i took it as fungal was removed and they're discussing how to fit it in again. but maybe its back.. cool.. im online in a minute | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
PvZ Danko vs Gossen: http://drop.sc/256503 PvZ Danko vs Gossen: http://drop.sc/256505 - Hydralisks.. I think the problem with them is that they are not rewarded by micro in small numbers. If Zerg is behind or even with the enemy, the Hydras will not turn the combat. Not even if a player micro them well. In smaller engagements vs Vultures, Zealots and Stalkers you only micro them to survive and you deal no damage. Compare this to the Stalker and the Roach.. 2-3 Stalkers are much better if microed. They can do devestating things early on. Marines too. Roaches in SC2 have enough HP to actually fight, run away a bit, deal some damage, take some damage.. Hydras vs Zealots just run away.. If they stay to shoot the zealots kill them in a couple of hits. Hydras are worth to build when Zerg is ahead and need to mass units. So large balls of Hydras are good, but small numbers of them do nothing, not even with micro. And I think that is a problem! One solution would be to give them speed and range upgrade at hatchery tech after all. Suggestions? Another problem with them is that they do not counter Corsairs. When Protoss pushes out with 6 corsairs, he will win vs 6 enemy hydras.. And Zerg generally do not have more than a couple of hydras once the Corsairs arrives, which means that Protoss easily gets air control. Compare this to BW when Corsairs could not lift off Hydras. I do think that Lift off is a nice touch to the Corsair. This only requires a different solution on the Zerg side, so they become able to deal with it. The pace of the game.. How do you all feel about the pace of the game? The acceleration and the development of your bases, army and tech? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
For hydras, it seems like you really grasp whats wrong with them now. They simple don't do damage. In BW, hydra vs goons, hydras could beat goons handily. Now stalkers beat out hydras ever time, marines beat them out every time (bonus vs light kills them), 6 zealots will force 6 hydras to kite for quite a while to actually deal with them. So what use is there for them? Even muta's beat them. People simply overrun their enemy with pure numbers, or have to engage smartly which you could use lings for as well, but better. Their a stepping stone to lurker right now. Hydras are probably the best solution for any early firebat play since they dominate ling defense. As for a solution? Moving the upgrades to hatch simply won't make them a more viable unit. With speed and range, they still just don't do enough damage. When people decide to go hydra they usually have the hatch transforming into a lair by the time the hydra den is going down anyways. One extra hydra in play won't make them more viable. I'd say get them to more respectable levels of killing power like in BW. Pace of the game is awesome. The start of the game doesn't take forever, but you still get things like build order wins in with 1 base vs a fast expo, the usual sort of gambles we expect from Starcraft. As soon as both players get on two base Its now a constant battle of denying your opponents expansions and taking your own. NA needs more maps x.x | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
I would suggest buffing them to 8 (12 vs Armored) and returning the upgrades to Hatch tech. However, drop the range by 0.5 and make the range upgrade add an additional 0.5. Fungal In my opinion, this spell should absolutely not do damage. I haven't had a chance to play with it yet but I love the idea of movement and attack speed slowing. If it still doesn't feel powerful enough, buff the AoE and make it unable to affect your own units. Of all the races, Zerg is the one that feels the least likely to have AoE spells that can hurt themselves. You would think each brood would have developed an immunity to their own Infestors diseases and micro organisms. Also, since the Infestor can no longer stun units while killing them over time like in SC2, I would buff their speed back up to 2.5 like it was before Blizz nerfed them. Stalker On the subject of the Stalker not feeling as microable.. I like the idea of buffing the range upgrade to add +2 instead of +1. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Also seeing Corsairs lift Tanks gives me a fuzzy warm feeling inside. | ||
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
also one of the players i played against was decemberscal | ||
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Iatrik
Germany159 Posts
I LOVE that mod :D I (diamond league) played against a friend of mine (gold league) and got completly crushed in a ZvZ, because i went hydra/lurker against muta/bane. He always caught me out of position and deserved to win! In SC2 1 FG-Chain would've won me the game. I really really like it! | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Great game and great cast! I do think that PvT or TvT is the most fun match up to both play and watch. Games that include Zerg do not get as good. I personally enjoy Protoss and Terran more in Starbow than in SC2. But Zerg actually feels less fun to play. Its the race that is least completed. Many players want me to remove Immortals. I think they add a reason for Terran to not only go mech. T must use other methods to deal with the Immortal. For example Marines, Ghosts with EMP or Lockdown, Science Vessels with Nerve jammers. Once the shield is depleted they die from a few siege tanks shoots or mines. It forces a broader use of units from T and important targets to focus fire in combat. (In BW we always saw Vultures, Tanks and Goliaths. Always!) Its a unit the Protoss player can be tricked to overextend with. He can also use it to make Terran overextend with counter units. In this game Protoss built lots of Immortals as a response to the heavy mech play. Had Terran switched his composition momentarily to more bio or Ghosts with EMP, he would have crushed the Immortals. (Which he also did a in a couple of engagements) Kinda like Zerg sees 2 corsairs and throws down spore crawlers at every base, just to later find out that Protoss built no more corsairs. Nice to see that Corsairs are actually useful in PvT too.  Note: Immortals deal extra damage vs armored. So they are great vs Siege tanks, Goliaths, lurkers, ultralisks, stalkers, reavers and buildings. Not vs Vultures, marines, hydras, zealots or archons. @Hydras Their stats are actually quite close to the BW hydra, except that they had a seperate stronger attack vs air there. I will bring back early upgrades for hydras and see how that effects them before I change anything else with the unit. @Shield This was a huge misstake by me. I have played a lot the last couple of days. The Shield was moved from Medics to Vessels again. This took away a crucial advantage of going bio. The interaction between Medics and other units was really nice. TvT: One huge benefit by going bio with mech was that Medics could shield the tanks. Or send in a marine with Shield to absorb tank fire why your army advanced. With that removed, vultures + siege tanks destroys marines + siege tanks. Bio has lost its special edge in TvT: / PvT: As we saw in the Vod above, Protoss often blinks on top of the tanks. One way for T to respond vs aggresive blinks is to cast Shield on his tanks or Nerve jammer with the Vessel. Bio was better vs P overall since Shield is what gave your marine engagements its edge. With nice micro you could even survive a reaver shot! Now Reaver means auto-kill for the bio : / TvZ: Banelings A-move easily into bio balls. Shielding marines was one way to deal with mass baneling, since you have no medivacs to escape into now. The shielded marine could absord ca 5 banelings, which gave a nice micro dimension to the match up. Z did not want to waste banelings, T wanted to lure the banelings into the shielded marine. I am very tempted to bring it back to the Medic. I like that EMP are on Ghosts again. We see "before-the-combat-engagements" were the sneaky Ghosts EMPs the Protoss clumped army. This forces Protoss to not keep his units tightly packed. Ghosts are often built in PvT now. Vessel never moved out like that vs the enemy army since they are slow, uncloaked and expensive. If I do bring back Shield again.. We get a problem with the Vessel starting spell.. One easy way to give it a starting spell is to look at the current SC2 Terran spells that are not used: Auto-turret and Hunter seeker missile. A slight modification to either of them might be enough to bring it back. So we don´t have to create something entirely new. After all, what is wrong with Auto-turret? @Stalker range upgrade Many players think that the stalker range upgrade is pointless. +1 range gives nothing. They can not outrange bunkers or anything. If it is a pointless upgrade I might make it a bit stronger because I don´t like things that serves no purpose in the game. On the other hand, if it is pointless, then so are marines and hydralisks range upgrade too? @ Deathballs Lets continue understand what makes deathballs less useful in combat and flanking and positioning more important. If players are rewared by using flanking and striking at multiple points in an engagement, they will do so if it is better than just send in everything in a huge clump. - Smaller choke points all over the map which makes deathballs unable to get good engagements. - Strong Area of effect spells and damage that forces the players to have their units more spread out. - Short ranged units? If core units like marines, stalkers etc have a shorter range, they will not be as devestataing in huge balls. They will benefit more from attacking from multiple angles so everyone can shoot? (Right now the core units range are 1 less than in normal SC2. Marines have range 4, stalkers range 5 etc. The range upgrades gives them the normal value. Maybe range upgrades should not be in the game at all, since it strengthens deathball formations?) | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
That range makes dragoons in BW outrange bunkers was a nice touch, but not the main reason to get it. Range improves the concave your units are forming, making the unit better in larger engagements. Range improves the micro possibilities of the unit, making kiting and chasing better. Range makes it easier to break fortified chokes, as more of you units can shoot the defenders. Range makes it easier to defend a choke for the same reasons. Making stalker range +2 is a possibility - but why not change bunkers to give +1 range to units inside (if stalkers with 6 range can't outrange them, that means that upgrading marine range does not affect bunker range) making bunker range 5, and 6 with upgraded marines. | ||
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Gendi2545
South Africa50 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Good points.. Hm. @Gendi Heart of the Starbow.. ^^ When HoTS is released I will probably "make" an expansion too. If anything in Hots can be added to this to make the game better. But I will let the version for WoL remain, for those who prefer it. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
I also think Sterilize is more fitting as a Medic spell given its origins as Restore and the flavor. But it COULD work as a Vessel spell. I'd be in favor of putting that in place of D-Mattix for now while Shield is brought back to the Medic. I would also like to see Energize removed. It doesn't feel right on that unit and I think it has a high potential to be broken with the right composition. In the future, I wouldn't mind seeing a new spell for the Vessel and Sterilize moved back to the Medic as well, but we need some serious brainstorming to come up with a dynamic and fitting ability. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
The only reason people don't use auto turret is because it is just a bad spell. It puts in the dps of one extra immobile marine without stim during late game. Meanwhile it shares the energy pool with some of the most powerful spells in the game. When people use it, its a panic throw. @ZvP Any time we see this match up it turns into experimentation. The problem might no be the hydra itself, it could be that stalker has bonus damage vs light and therefore completely counters both lings and hydras which are going to be the only defense Z has unless he spends the time to morph 10 of his much needed drones into spines early in the game. Another issue might be that for Zerg to keep up on 2 base T or P using macro mechanics (for Z this always means 2 base 1 macro hatch all with queen injecting) he has to completely drone up as hard as possible with room for only around 6 lings to play with. Meanwhile Toss can have 7 gates and a robo up while still being even on workers vs pure eco Zerg. On NA we've been entirely foregoing hydras because lings deal with groups of zealots of stalkers much more handily, but the problem with that is they lose their effectiveness when toss gets a critical mass. Banes are going to be a huge resource loss for Zerg against Stalkers. Keep in mind, this isn't BW. When stalkers attack, a LOT of stalkers attack at the same time because of how the SC2 engine works. In BW you'd only have a couple dragoons actually shooting at a the hydras at a time. This means you can get a critical mass where the opposing glass cannon hydras just melt. Blink makes this even worse. Dragoons didn't do quite as high DPS to light units did they? Stalkers even annihilate lings when they get into a big enough clump. @TvP This match up is awesome right now. Early game Toss should have the edge with stalkers (opposite of roaming BW vultures I believe). You can still try to do damage with vultures, but they can't own the map if Toss is careful with his speedy stalkers. As you've mentioned, immortal creates really interesting dynamics. You NEED the marines in play to take down immortals/corsairs or you're tanks will be invalidated. This doesn't make positional play irrelevant either, in fact it encourages it. Toss needs to set up his flanks carefully or his units will be annihilated even with immortals and corsairs. Zealots can go in first and take the brunt of the initial spider mines and siege tank fire while everything else should be spread out and come from different angles. If toss catches the marines out of position then immortals and blank stalkers can hit that position hard. Failure to always know the weak point of the mech army and you will lose every engagement unless you had a hard counter unit composition. We'll see if Toss starts throwing in storms on top of marines to make their immortals not die within seconds, and then if Terran starts using ghosts to snipe them. So many layers of unit interaction. @+1 range on stalker If toss spots T going bio wall off with bunkers FE, he knows he can chip away at the wall for free, and also engage a single fire, keep the Terran player pressured. Then he can switch to blink and just blink right past the wall and start killing workers, or just bring in an immortal and continue his pressure. This pretty much always forces immediate tank production. | ||
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