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On September 29 2012 14:14 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 13:49 ArkussSC2 wrote:On September 29 2012 13:15 SmileZerg wrote:On September 29 2012 12:43 Canhanrah wrote:On September 29 2012 11:59 SmileZerg wrote:
I can understand people being dubious of my suggestions given my lack of gameplay experience with the Mod. But there is also no obligation to commit to any changes that are made - we are still actively patching things on a more or less weekly basis, yes? We have nothing at stake. We don't have tournaments or pro players relying on a strict balance. If anything put into practice seems not to work, revert it. That's why we have people playtesting and why I don't necessarily need to do so myself. I happen to have a mind which excels at understanding abstract design and I love this Mod and enjoy trying to improve it. Not all of my ideas are good - I've gone back and rethought some of them at later points and realized there were real problems. But it doesn't hurt to test.
Fungal Growth however, is fundamentally flawed as a damage dealing spell. We've already witnessed this in SC2 and I can almost guarantee that in enough time you will see it in Starbow. It's going to lead to dominated strategies for Zerg, i.e., less diversity and fun. If you don't want to take my word for it that's perfectly okay, but I'll be ready to suggest alternatives when you're ready to change it back. Ok now imagine Z in sc2 without infestors.... How is that relevant to the discussion at hand? This isn't SC2, it's Starbow. We aren't confined to balancing the race within Blizzard's poorly designed iteration. Nor am I suggesting we remove Infestors, only that Fungal Growth work differently or that it be replaced by another spell. Also it was rather immature of you to try and ninja edit one of the words in my post when you quoted it. I think you should leave this discussion to the grown-ups. You just contradicted yourself :/ Fungal in SC2 is an entirely different spell than in Starbow because of the units available. Zerg got shit on for a long time in SC2 (trust me, I've had SC2 since release and been a Zerg since 2001) and heavy infestor play is relatively recent compared to the old builds. Fungal in Starbow is a lot harder to use and doesn't snare, just slows units. As a damage spell 35 damage is minimal compared to the 85 of psionic storm and 100 of emp. Fungal is a crowd control spell that works exceptionally well against clumped units, thus forcing micro keeping your units spaced out a bit. Imo as a Zerg player fungal was needed as Zerg was by far the weakest race of the 3. Perhaps now there will be some balance. It's not a contradiction. In SC2 Fungal Growth was necessary to maintain balance because the game was badly designed. The spell, itself, is also badly designed, regardless of the differences in the Zerg race between SC2 and Starbow. I elaborated on that in the next post I made. It's not a question of balance. Besides, while the race may be or have been underpowered (and I'm reserving judgement on that due to a small player pool), I do not think that this is the way we should go about fixing it, with a catch-all spell. The Hydralisk buff could change things drastically on its own.
The only reason Fungal is so strong in SC2 is because of how units clump. Thats not the case in Starbow. Fungal as a damage spell actually quite sad compared to other damage spells as I said and yeah it has a slow effect. I'm all for removing the slow effect completely or minimalizing it but the damage is petty and just gives Zerg some extra AoE in big engagements. I really don't see why you hate it so much. Play the mod and your assumptions will be durastically different.
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On September 30 2012 00:24 Zain3 wrote:
zerg is the only race without a powerful area of effect spell below tier 3 right or am i missing something?
They have the strongest aoe spell at tier 3 though
On September 29 2012 10:09 Kabel wrote:I am obviosuly not an all-knowing design oracle who can predict if everything will work or not.
not everyone can be dustin browder
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On September 30 2012 02:46 scen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 00:24 Zain3 wrote:
zerg is the only race without a powerful area of effect spell below tier 3 right or am i missing something?
They have the strongest aoe spell at tier 3 though Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 10:09 Kabel wrote:I am obviosuly not an all-knowing design oracle who can predict if everything will work or not. not everyone can be dustin browder
Bahahahahah!!!
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Why is the title constantly changing? First [M], then [UMS], now [A]. o_o
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I completely forgot, the map names went weird last update, I'll try to fix it and make sure everything is working as intended.
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Doing some Hydra testing on NA Server. I think Hydras are balanced in their stats but we've discovered a really greedy Zerg build that is hard to punish on 2 base. This build lets Zerg hit at around 9 minutes if done properly with a swarm of Hydras. Fast Reaver seems to be the answer for Protoss but the transition after the initial hold can be tricky as Zerg can be on 5 base after the 11 minute mark with a very strong economy. Here's some games of the very aggressive/greedy Hydra macro build. Any other suggestions on how to punish this/survive it without taking substantive losses would really be appreciated. I think the issue is the mass amount of Hydras, not the Hydras themselves.
@EDIT: I personally see two possible ways to stop the attack. First being the game with Ulose when we're testing the efficiency of the reaver, second being really fast psionic storm. I think reavers are the better choice as theres usually a tight ramp or opening from the natural making it easy to hold. The only issue is pushing about after to take a third or pressure. A fast transition into archons may be necessary and more additional reavers with a few immortals if lurkers come into play (with CapnAmerica games, he had lurkers join the mix before 12 minutes).
http://drop.sc/259329
http://drop.sc/259330
http://drop.sc/259331
http://drop.sc/259332
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So basically the Zerg goes mass Hydras (with Lurkers) and the Protoss has to hold with Reavers/Storm before he is overwhelmed?
Hmm, sounds awfully familiar...
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Looking on SC2 Mapster. Some nice Melee maps on here. Maybe consider adding some of these to the map pool?
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/development/melee/42715-1v1-map-immi-nightfall/#p4
Lots of wide open spaces, makes containments easier to break and encourages lots of battles in the middle. Might not be too tactical for army locations but its for sure a test of micro.
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/development/melee/40641-m-2-tainted-underworld/#p1
Just badass looking with lots of possible flanking positions. For terran and protoss building placement is going to be key to hold all the openings and it's going to force creep spread by Zerg which is never a bad thing 
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/development/melee/35063-m-2-lunar-remnants/#p17
A very simple map design that encourages a fast expansion as the natural is in the back of the main. This is always nice because it will let us see how strong 2 base plays can be at max economic efficiency (very easy to saturate that natural) and lets us see more later tier units (We haven't seen much Broodlord / Arbiter,Dark Archon / Battle Cruiser use on N/A really)
On September 30 2012 05:58 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
So basically the Zerg goes mass Hydras (with Lurkers) and the Protoss has to hold with Reavers/Storm before he is overwhelmed?
Hmm, sounds awfully familiar...
Well the issue isnt that hydras are too good its the mass amount of them you are able to get in a short period of time with a crazy economy without being punished for it. I've beaten the mass hydra build with a 4warpgate rush. Hit before the second wave of hydras were out and even with spines it didnt matter I just ran into the main and killed the economy, my second warp in killed the third and it was gg from there. The zerg is able to go on 3 base lightning fast and without 1 base aggression you can't really punish it. My concern isn't holding the initial hydra push, it's being able to stay in the game after and make a successful counter hit/expand. Zerg can be on 5 bases in 10 minutes while doing this push.
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On September 30 2012 00:39 ArkussSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 14:14 SmileZerg wrote:On September 29 2012 13:49 ArkussSC2 wrote:On September 29 2012 13:15 SmileZerg wrote:On September 29 2012 12:43 Canhanrah wrote:On September 29 2012 11:59 SmileZerg wrote:
I can understand people being dubious of my suggestions given my lack of gameplay experience with the Mod. But there is also no obligation to commit to any changes that are made - we are still actively patching things on a more or less weekly basis, yes? We have nothing at stake. We don't have tournaments or pro players relying on a strict balance. If anything put into practice seems not to work, revert it. That's why we have people playtesting and why I don't necessarily need to do so myself. I happen to have a mind which excels at understanding abstract design and I love this Mod and enjoy trying to improve it. Not all of my ideas are good - I've gone back and rethought some of them at later points and realized there were real problems. But it doesn't hurt to test.
Fungal Growth however, is fundamentally flawed as a damage dealing spell. We've already witnessed this in SC2 and I can almost guarantee that in enough time you will see it in Starbow. It's going to lead to dominated strategies for Zerg, i.e., less diversity and fun. If you don't want to take my word for it that's perfectly okay, but I'll be ready to suggest alternatives when you're ready to change it back. Ok now imagine Z in sc2 without infestors.... How is that relevant to the discussion at hand? This isn't SC2, it's Starbow. We aren't confined to balancing the race within Blizzard's poorly designed iteration. Nor am I suggesting we remove Infestors, only that Fungal Growth work differently or that it be replaced by another spell. Also it was rather immature of you to try and ninja edit one of the words in my post when you quoted it. I think you should leave this discussion to the grown-ups. You just contradicted yourself :/ Fungal in SC2 is an entirely different spell than in Starbow because of the units available. Zerg got shit on for a long time in SC2 (trust me, I've had SC2 since release and been a Zerg since 2001) and heavy infestor play is relatively recent compared to the old builds. Fungal in Starbow is a lot harder to use and doesn't snare, just slows units. As a damage spell 35 damage is minimal compared to the 85 of psionic storm and 100 of emp. Fungal is a crowd control spell that works exceptionally well against clumped units, thus forcing micro keeping your units spaced out a bit. Imo as a Zerg player fungal was needed as Zerg was by far the weakest race of the 3. Perhaps now there will be some balance. It's not a contradiction. In SC2 Fungal Growth was necessary to maintain balance because the game was badly designed. The spell, itself, is also badly designed, regardless of the differences in the Zerg race between SC2 and Starbow. I elaborated on that in the next post I made. It's not a question of balance. Besides, while the race may be or have been underpowered (and I'm reserving judgement on that due to a small player pool), I do not think that this is the way we should go about fixing it, with a catch-all spell. The Hydralisk buff could change things drastically on its own. The only reason Fungal is so strong in SC2 is because of how units clump. Thats not the case in Starbow. Fungal as a damage spell actually quite sad compared to other damage spells as I said and yeah it has a slow effect. I'm all for removing the slow effect completely or minimalizing it but the damage is petty and just gives Zerg some extra AoE in big engagements. I really don't see why you hate it so much. Play the mod and your assumptions will be durastically different.
This doesn't have anything to do with how strong the spell is. That could be balanced by tweaking numbers if it was an issue, which like you said, it isn't with the lack of clumping in Starbow. It just doesn't feel right for Zerg to have a long-ranged mass AoE damage ability, especially before Hive Tech. It takes away from the racial diversity - it's like turning the Infestor into the Zerg siege tank, but without the immobility drawback. Yes it's much weaker in that it requires energy, but all that does is encourage players to mass more of the unit, which goes against the idea of a support caster.
Zerg doesn't need a T2 AoE damage spell to stay 'even' with the other races, asymmetrical race design is much more interesting. The game also does not benefit from a spell that reduces micro and cannot be mitigated by skillful play - this is where the difference comes in between Fungal and Psi Storm, like I've said before. The opponent can split and pull his units out of Storms. Fungal does not have that potential for exciting play, it just hits and then the units are taking damage while being less microable.
There was absolutely nothing like Fungal in BW. The closest approximation is Plague, but again that was Hive tech, could not KILL units but rather weakened them, and it didn't detract from micro while doing so. Yes we could remove the slowing effect, but that only fixes one issue. There is still an overlap with Lurkers and Banelings, which are far more exciting to watch.
I love the looks of these first two maps you found!!
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PvT broken and terran up! 
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Hmm. Can you elaborate Danko? What seem to be the issues?
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He doesn't win 100% of the games.
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On September 30 2012 08:10 SmileZerg wrote:
Hmm. Can you elaborate Danko? What seem to be the issues?
My PvT is too strong for him...
On September 30 2012 05:30 ArkussSC2 wrote:Doing some Hydra testing on NA Server. I think Hydras are balanced in their stats but we've discovered a really greedy Zerg build that is hard to punish on 2 base. This build lets Zerg hit at around 9 minutes if done properly with a swarm of Hydras. Fast Reaver seems to be the answer for Protoss but the transition after the initial hold can be tricky as Zerg can be on 5 base after the 11 minute mark with a very strong economy. Here's some games of the very aggressive/greedy Hydra macro build. Any other suggestions on how to punish this/survive it without taking substantive losses would really be appreciated. I think the issue is the mass amount of Hydras, not the Hydras themselves. @EDIT: I personally see two possible ways to stop the attack. First being the game with Ulose when we're testing the efficiency of the reaver, second being really fast psionic storm. I think reavers are the better choice as theres usually a tight ramp or opening from the natural making it easy to hold. The only issue is pushing about after to take a third or pressure. A fast transition into archons may be necessary and more additional reavers with a few immortals if lurkers come into play (with CapnAmerica games, he had lurkers join the mix before 12 minutes). http://drop.sc/259329 http://drop.sc/259330http://drop.sc/259331http://drop.sc/259332
5 hatch hydra is a common build in BW. The most standard include an early lair but in your build, you delay the lair to push with hydra earlier. Against this, Protoss need to defend his natural with canon (4 shall be enought) until his tech is done. The best choice against this is Templar Archive to unlock zealot speed, storm and DT. With DT, you shall be able to deflect the push easily (no lair = no mobile detection) and then, you have a timing window to take a 3rd and to damages Zerg's economy with DT (5 hatch on 5 different location can be difficult to defend). Of course, you can also use Reaver to stop the push before using them with warp prism to kill some drone (no lair = no scourge to kill the prism).
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AHahha, so I finally got around to checking those FE first replays you guys were excited about. I was there to spec those games you silly people, and PvP FE on match point? Come on, that map is MASSIVE. Try it on oak or breaking and see if you can hold a 1 base immortal.
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Tanks in Starbow has Smart Firing? Or they overkill like in BW?
Tanks can overkill. I added that because it makes it more important for Terran to spread their tanks out at better locations, since if the enemy drops a unit on top of a cluster of tanks, the tanks will blow up their friends very fast! I think this encourages Terran to consider how they place their tanks.
Why is the title constantly changing? First [M], then [UMS], now [A]. o_o
I have no idea why. The moderators are the one that decides that and no one has contacted me about it. And I have not contacted anyone either to ask. I suppose they have their reasons :s
PvT broken and terran up!
Danko, are you loosing? Ahh.. Poor fellow  I have barely changed Terran or Protoss in this patch. Mostly Zerg stuff. What makes you draw this conclusion? (And please answear my PM I sent you two days ago, >.< )
@ The new maps proposed
Tainted underworld was in the map pool for ca 1-2 months ago. It is a good map but did not really fit with Starbow. It is a very small map and the expansions gives little possibility for defence, since it like many SC2 maps, have very exposed and tightly packed expansions. I will take a look at the other maps.
I have also contacted a "famous" mapmaker who has made some really good maps published on this forum. He will try to design a map just for Starbow where he considers the aspects of the current gameplay. He can´t promise anything yet since he is a busy man. But he likes this project and he will try go get something done in the near future 
@Fungal Growth
This has become a hot topic! To make a long answear short: I looked at the original SC2 Fungal Growth and thought: What aspect of it is most annoying and causes the spell to be problematic? I think its the fact that it stuns the enemy, if I got to point at a specific one.
I decided to keep Fungal as close to its original version as possible, since I have changed it so much earlier without good success. And if the way I change aspects of the game does not improve anything, then there is no reason to keep it. I let the damage remain and instead gave it a 75% slow down in movement speed. A minor crucial change to the spell but still true to its original concept.
I am aware that it might not be the perfect solution. I was considering to give a version of Plague to the Infestor, at Lair tech. It is a pre-combat spell and it makes the Infestor more sneaky, which I like. But since I still haven´t decided or found a solution with the Swarm Guardian and Dark Swarm, and what spells shall be on it, I made Fungal Growth take a "step back" to its original form for the time being.
And yes, I gotta fix the Swarm Guardian and Dark Swarm so the Zerg race can feel complete too >.<
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So please discuss, what shall the Swarm Guardian do besides cast Dark Swarm? How can Dark Swarm be so it fits with the Swarm Guardian? (Many players think that the current D-Swarm is a major problem) Or shall we try to let the Queen have it, as SmileZerg strongly proposes? If so, what will happen to the poor Swarm Guardian?
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On September 30 2012 10:42 Kabel wrote:@ The new maps proposed
Tainted underworld was in the map pool for ca 1-2 months ago. It is a good map but did not really fit with Starbow. It is a very small map and the expansions gives little possibility for defence, since it like many SC2 maps, have very exposed and tightly packed expansions. I will take a look at the other maps. I have also contacted a "famous" mapmaker who has made some really good maps published on this forum. He will try to design a map just for Starbow where he considers the aspects of the current gameplay. He can´t promise anything yet since he is a busy man. But he likes this project and he will try go get something done in the near future
Ahh damn I hate when good looking maps turn out to be too small in-game.
That's very exciting to hear about a mapmaker considering doing some custom work for us though!
@Fungal Growth
This has become a hot topic! To make a long answear short: I looked at the original SC2 Fungal Growth and thought: What aspect of it is most annoying and causes the spell to be problematic? I think its the fact that it stuns the enemy, if I got to point at a specific one.
I decided to keep Fungal as close to its original version as possible, since I have changed it so much earlier without good success. And if the way I change aspects of the game does not improve anything, then there is no reason to keep it. I let the damage remain and instead gave it a 75% slow down in movement speed. A minor crucial change to the spell but still true to its original concept.
I am aware that it might not be the perfect solution. I was considering to give a version of Plague to the Infestor, at Lair tech. It is a pre-combat spell and it makes the Infestor more sneaky, which I like. But since I still haven´t decided or found a solution with the Swarm Guardian and Dark Swarm, and what spells shall be on it, I made Fungal Growth take a "step back" to its original form for the time being.
I don't blame you for wanting to try something out but I feel that it was a step in the wrong direction. While the stun is the biggest issue in SC2, and you have mitigated that by replacing it with a slow-effect, there is a larger issue in Starbow with the fact that we have things like Lurkers and Scourge again! Fungal was a necessary evil for SC2's balance - we have much better designed alternatives available to us.
I would be much more open to the idea of a Plague spell instead. In fact, I think I would prefer it, especially if it was the Infestor's last spell slot, so we could move Neural Parasite back to being the second spell and maybe remove the research requirement on that one. With the ability to cast it while burrowed, and Plague being a pre-combat spell, we would see a LOT more of that sneaky Infestor play I think both of us are looking for.
So please discuss, what shall the Swarm Guardian do besides cast Dark Swarm? How can Dark Swarm be so it fits with the Swarm Guardian? (Many players think that the current D-Swarm is a major problem) Or shall we try to let the Queen have it, as SmileZerg strongly proposes? If so, what will happen to the poor Swarm Guardian?
If we do put DS on the Queen, I would say remove the Swarm Guardian entirely, or leave it in as our placeholder for the Starbow-Viper in the future (just change the name and spell line-up). If we are removing Fungal from the Infestor in favor of Plague, we can put the old Ensnare version of the spell (no damage, lowers attack speed) on the Viper to replace Blinding Cloud (which we obviously don't need with Dark Swarm in the game). Abduct is a questionable ability and might be too big of a pain in the ass for us to program before HotS, so maybe leave that one out for now and think of one last ability to round out the Viper?
As for Dark Swarm, I would suggest making it a Lair-Tech research on the Hatchery. This ideally will lead to players making a strategic choice between Overlord Speed/Drops, Burrow and DS in the mid-game.
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As for Dark Swarm, I would suggest making it a Lair-Tech research on the Hatchery. This ideally will lead to players making a strategic choice between Overlord Speed/Drops, Burrow and DS in the mid-game.
I think it would make it difficult, that you have to pick between speed/drops and dark swarm, as the only effective way to use it out of combat is with both or massive creep spread. Requiring 3 upgrades and ridiculous micro to use an ability effectively seems cumbersome. Having it used defensively is alright, although I think Dark Swarms real value is in an aggressive form. This probably isn't the best way to fix the problem, but maybe allow the queen to start with DS, increase its energy cost, and give the queens an energy upgrade for lair. This gives them more usage I think, they can come out able to transfuse, inject multiple hatches for some cases, and get DS faster. On the other hand, you can spend time getting speed/drops so that you can use it more aggressively, and allow queens to save energy for it while ovies get up'ed. Maybe this would just complicate things more? Im not sure, but I don't like having so many crucial upgrades to make one ability used, much less all on the same building.
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On September 30 2012 14:00 nilsheam wrote:Show nested quote +As for Dark Swarm, I would suggest making it a Lair-Tech research on the Hatchery. This ideally will lead to players making a strategic choice between Overlord Speed/Drops, Burrow and DS in the mid-game. I think it would make it difficult, that you have to pick between speed/drops and dark swarm, as the only effective way to use it out of combat is with both or massive creep spread. Requiring 3 upgrades and ridiculous micro to use an ability effectively seems cumbersome. Having it used defensively is alright, although I think Dark Swarms real value is in an aggressive form. This probably isn't the best way to fix the problem, but maybe allow the queen to start with DS, increase its energy cost, and give the queens an energy upgrade for lair. This gives them more usage I think, they can come out able to transfuse, inject multiple hatches for some cases, and get DS faster. On the other hand, you can spend time getting speed/drops so that you can use it more aggressively, and allow queens to save energy for it while ovies get up'ed. Maybe this would just complicate things more? Im not sure, but I don't like having so many crucial upgrades to make one ability used, much less all on the same building.
The idea is that it might be too powerful to make it available so early, since it's originally a Hive tech spell. This way it will be possible to get it in the midgame but you'll have to make a large investment to reap the benefits of offensive use.
This is all subject to balance testing though.
Do keep in mind that while they're all technically on the same building, you should have at least three Hatcheries by the time this becomes available. Also remember that unlocking Overlord Drops leads to all sorts of available tactics and it's not an investment going purely towards Dark Swarm.
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@Smile
So you're basically forcing ultras/brood? If toss and T doesn't want you to have a creep highway badly enough, you won't.
So you're left with dropping queens. Oh wait, that conflicts with tech path and also requires speed which is even more expensive.
Drops are micro intensive enough, you want the main spell caster to be a forced drop unit?
So you're stuck with ultras or brood. Don't even humor me by saying ovie creep would come into play for this.
@Fungal Growth
It's awesome for sniping drops just like feedback is in the way it stuns and then you finish it off with units or drop a few infested and chain stun it.
It'll operate almost exactly like sc2 if its really a 75% slowdown. Thats essentially the same as them being rooted because banelings and all zerg units move so quickly.
The main reason its boring right? It negates micro.
You don't dodge the root or the damage. IT HAPPENS. Pretty quickly, so quickly that you use it DURING the engagement.
Compare this to a few spells that are similar.
Storm: You can minimize the damage by dodging, but it still hurts initially so your energy isn't just forfeit.
Interesting spell.
Plague: Obviously its an instant effect, but the damage is so slow you can just run away with the army and heal, but during the fight you really aren't hindered by it too much. Gotta be sneaky and use it strategically.
You can fix the issue by making it a projectile like emp and give the enemy clump of marines a chance to dodge or die via banes.
If you slowed down the damage or nerfed it, its still just as lame and boring as before because of the root and instant effect.
This also means you've got a conflict between using it as a damage over time or a root. You could probably separate this, give infestor both a plague and a root with a projectile. This gives the opponent a chance if hes paying attention like he should be to his army (unless Z is sneaky) to not get his army instantly killed.
@Maps
I would love so much to see more maps like BW. Seeing really long ramps in the middle of the field and lurkers parked on top of them is always fun to see. Suits the high ground mechanic perfectly.
Match Point somehow makes PvP fun to watch, its amazing.
@Swarm Guardian
Whats wrong with it?
Dark swarm is so amazing.
You could give it spawn brooding from BW queen. Swarm guardians are super vulnerable to irradiate and always a key target for Terran, plus it shares an energy pool that can let zerg kill WAY more than just a few tanks. Its situational by late game and not overpowered. Gives Z a way to at least use its energy pool when it simply doesn't have the right units in position but needs at least something to help out.
I don't understand frenzy though, zerg already has such high dps on its units when their in position, but fragile, hence dark swarm. Why more dps? No drawback, or chance of it being micro'ed away from besides hope you kill them faster. Sort of a boring spell.
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EPT
