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On September 30 2012 14:48 decemberscalm wrote:
@Smile
So you're basically forcing ultras/brood? If toss and T doesn't want you to have a creep highway badly enough, you won't.
So you're left with dropping queens. Oh wait, that conflicts with tech path and also requires speed which is even more expensive.
Drops are micro intensive enough, you want the main spell caster to be a forced drop unit?
I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to argue here. Nothing is being forced at all in regards to lategame units. Zerg doesn't even HAVE tech paths, there is no conflict? And since when are Swarm Guardians the main caster unit? It would be no different with Queen drops in that sense.
By the time you have Hive Tech you should easily be able to afford (or have already researched) Overlord Drops/Speed as well as the Dark Swarm ability, it's just a matter of which you are going to prioritize first during the midgame. Faster Overlord upgrades open up new venues of attack, faster Dark Swarm research increases defenders advantage earlier. Once you have both you can reposition Queens much more easily and use Dark Swarm offensively as well. Also, if we add Nydus Worms back into the game there will be multiple methods of doing so.
Yes it's micro intensive. So are Storm Drops with HT. Micro intensive tactics are very good for competitive gameplay. It's also a non-issue when using DS in a defensive capacity.
@Maps
I would love so much to see more maps like BW. Seeing really long ramps in the middle of the field and lurkers parked on top of them is always fun to see. Suits the high ground mechanic perfectly.
Match Point somehow makes PvP fun to watch, its amazing.
I heavily support this.
@Swarm Guardian
Whats wrong with it?
Dark swarm is so amazing.
You could give it spawn brooding from BW queen. Swarm guardians are super vulnerable to irradiate and always a key target for Terran, plus it shares an energy pool that can let zerg kill WAY more than just a few tanks. Its situational by late game and not overpowered. Gives Z a way to at least use its energy pool when it simply doesn't have the right units in position but needs at least something to help out.
I don't understand frenzy though, zerg already has such high dps on its units when their in position, but fragile, hence dark swarm. Why more dps? No drawback, or chance of it being micro'ed away from besides hope you kill them faster. Sort of a boring spell.
What's wrong with the unit is that it's intended to be a defensive support caster, but we already have that in the Queen. Transfuse is a spell you cast on your own units to save them. By also giving her Dark Swarm, a spell also cast over your own units to protect them, there is a subconscious connection there. A theme develops of a mother protecting her young, and more mechanically of a hybrid unit that is intended to hold positions against assault and preserve your forces in between tending to macro needs.
The Swarm Guardian overlaps with this role currently, and has only one well-designed spell. Neither of its spells nor the unit itself are capable of dealing damage on their own, unlike every other caster unit in BW, SC2 or Starbow, nor does it have a way to quickly accumulate energy to make up for that (as the Viper does with Consume, which better ties that particular unit in with the Defiler as the Swarm Guardian was meant to be).
Giving the Swarm Guardian the Spawn Broodling ability would be terribly inelegant for two reasons - firstly we already have Broodlords with Swarm Seeds and the overlap would be gross and confusing. Secondly, Spawn Broodling is a snipe spell which you cast on your opponents units, which would not fit well with Dark Swarm or Frenzy which you cast on your own units.
By replacing it with the Viper we fix all of these problems. Vipers are also a flying support caster with no way of dealing damage on their own, even with Abduct which would be a snipe spell that does not overlap with Broodlords. By making sure their other spell is in some way disruptive of the opponents forces rather than cast on your own (I have suggested Ensnare to take this slot), there is not a disassociation between the intended roles of various Zerg casters, as there would be to retain Dark Swarm on a non-Queen unit, especially one that was also given a snipe spell.
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haha, played a crazy pvz against decemberscal earlier today, it ended up being a nailbiting base race with him winning barely with 1 base left and spines :D hope i can play him more!
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I'd cast it, but then I remembered I haaaaaaaaate casting games of myself in it.
Replay for ya instead.
http://drop.sc/259560
Did not expect him to actually go for the base trade. WP for him to manage to come back into the game strongly after getting his nexus canceled and his templar sniped.
Moral of this replay: ALWAYS save your workers. Pulling drones off my third saved me for sure.
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Another replay of Hydra rush at 7 minutes. The push was held by Horus after taking quite some damage. He lost in the later game but he proved the push can be stopped, having no idea what timing attack I was hitting him with. Scout for fast 3rd from Zerg and if you see it, get reavers and you'll hold.
http://drop.sc/259637
@SmileZerg
Theres nothing wrong with Swarm Guardian or Dark Swarm the way it is. Leave it alone. Dark Swarm is offensive not defensive. Don't believe me? Watch good Zergs late game and we'll show you.
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On September 30 2012 23:41 ArkussSC2 wrote:
Theres nothing wrong with Swarm Guardian or Dark Swarm the way it is. Leave it alone. Dark Swarm is offensive not defensive. Don't believe me? Watch good Zergs late game and we'll show you.
Basically this. Dark swarm is a very offensive ability for Zerg, due to it not protecting buildings.
I like the idea of giving spawn broodling (or something similar) to the Swarm guardian - It really fits the theme.
Also giving Infesters a no-damage short fungal might be just the solution. It will have to be balanced, but without damage, there are really no way for the infestors to be a near complete army on their own. Also, why not give plague to the infestor, but make it a Hive tech upgrade (to delay super fast timings). Then remove IT from infestors leaving them with Fungal, NP and Plague.
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Wtf is wrong with fungal. It's minor damage and slow. The arguement of "you can't micro out of it" is b.s because you can't really micro out of maelstrom either and it snares you so you just sit there and die. With the pathing in Starbow fungal doesn't grab half your army like it does in SC2 and with units available you dont even lose your footing. You fungal vs protoss they have reavers in the rear shooting all your stuff. You fungal terran bio they have tanks raining hell on you. Fungal is strong but it doesn't "kill" like you think it does. Sure you can fungal lock drop play or something but at actual engagments its not as strong as people think.
Dark Swarm for Zerg is only abusable with lurkers. If Zerg DS's their hydras you just run into the swarm with them or blast the shit out fo them with siege splash or melee units. Ultra/Ling in Dark Swarm is killed by firebat/medic with tanks shooting in and science vessel irradicate or protoss Zealot/Archon with Psi Storms. Dark Swarm is very situational and easily combatible. You can snipe down Swarm Guardians before they even get Dark Swarm off. I really don't see the need for these 2 spells to be under constant debate. I haven't seen anyone post a video saying either spell is OP.
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yay i just beat horus !!! but he was playing really bad so it doesnt count
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Heres a ZvT on Sacred Sands with ling bling festor vs bio terran. You can see how fungals are used but its the banelings that did majority of the damage.
http://drop.sc/259657
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On October 01 2012 00:30 ArkussSC2 wrote:
Wtf is wrong with fungal. It's minor damage and slow. The arguement of "you can't micro out of it" is b.s because you can't really micro out of maelstrom either and it snares you so you just sit there and die. With the pathing in Starbow fungal doesn't grab half your army like it does in SC2 and with units available you dont even lose your footing. You fungal vs protoss they have reavers in the rear shooting all your stuff. You fungal terran bio they have tanks raining hell on you. Fungal is strong but it doesn't "kill" like you think it does. Sure you can fungal lock drop play or something but at actual engagments its not as strong as people think.
Dark Swarm for Zerg is only abusable with lurkers. If Zerg DS's their hydras you just run into the swarm with them or blast the shit out fo them with siege splash or melee units. Ultra/Ling in Dark Swarm is killed by firebat/medic with tanks shooting in and science vessel irradicate or protoss Zealot/Archon with Psi Storms. Dark Swarm is very situational and easily combatible. You can snipe down Swarm Guardians before they even get Dark Swarm off. I really don't see the need for these 2 spells to be under constant debate. I haven't seen anyone post a video saying either spell is OP.
You can avoid maelstrom, it has a red circle that you need to move out of although its pretty hard to see atm. Dark swarm is amazing with hydras vs protoss. Not many of us can post videos unless you mean replays?
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Replays yes and Hydras? No you just run zealots in after em, Hydras can't attack zealots inside the Dark Swarm. In the event of Lurkers you back away or use reavers. Best option is to have a few Dark Archons as they are both tier 3 (Swarm Guardian and Dark Archon) and blast em with Feedback. Also, Psionic Storm works inside Dark Swarm and Hydras get ruined by that. Be creative, lots of ways of countering Dark Swarm.
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Heres a ZvT on Sacred Sands with infestor use. You can see that most engagements ended in a clean trade, both armies being completely destroyed.
http://drop.sc/259775
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Some things i noticed
Gameplay issues:
Reaver still too hard to select, hit box doesn't seem to be there for its lower half.
Chrono boost really needs a border, looks like a passive
Warp gate picture looks like its being pressed, really confusing.
Balance issuse:
im not winning with protoss, might be me might be imbalance (probably imbalance)
scvs have 60 health which means DT's dont one shot them so your either going to have to reduce their health by 5 or increase dt damage by 5.
some of the maps seriously favour muta's(or general air play) because they have strange lines of sight around mineral patches and inbetween bases (mainly match point).
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@Laertes
I belive watching and deeply analyzing games can often help with progress even more than playing. So dont be so impolite and keep in mind that not everyone has to share your opinion. Im finding SmileZerg's ideas and notes really interesting.
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@Danko
SmileZerg has great ideas but 99% of NA share this feeling. SmileZerg's idea's would be great for a mod he could make on his own, especially going back 15-20 pages where he posted all the spell idea's and such. Majority of NA share the feeling that SmileZerg's opinions are too durastic and are out of this world in terms of the game. Also when it comes to analyzing replays vs playing. Watching replays is great but you're missing so many variables when it comes to how things could have been dealt with and skill gap is huge amongst players. Unfortunately on NA most of our matchups are Diamond/Master vs Gold/Plat because thats just who happens to be on. In order to truely see the effectiveness of things we need our highest level players testing builds over and over to see what works and what doesn't. Earlier I mentioned I would love your thoughts on the Hydra rush builds I posted and since everyone says you are currently the number 1 Zerg I think your opinion on how Zerg stands right now is critical. I just recently switched Zerg and I post replays of what I can that is relative to discussions at hand but I'm not the best player and I haven't had enough clutch games to really prove much.
@Scen
Reaver is great right now. It's easy to target it down if thats what you mean to select. Chronoboost is fine the way it is, everyone knows what it's uses are it just looks pretty. Warp Gate is easy to tell apart :/ these are things I've only heard from you
Balance related: What aren't you winning? The update only effected ZvP and on NA we're working on how to keep Protoss competitive in the PvZ matchup. DT's weren't able to 1 hit SCV's in Broodwar either, send 2 DT's in instead of 1 or 4 zealots? When it comes to mutas most maps are actually against mutas because theres so many ground pathings with 2 flanks to each base. I don't know your race, going to assume Protoss. Get some Corsairs and 3-4 cannons at every base when Mutas are out and you'll be fine. Corsairs hard counter Muta play all day and Corruptors aren't out until Hive tech.
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On September 30 2012 23:55 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 23:41 ArkussSC2 wrote:
Theres nothing wrong with Swarm Guardian or Dark Swarm the way it is. Leave it alone. Dark Swarm is offensive not defensive. Don't believe me? Watch good Zergs late game and we'll show you. Basically this. Dark swarm is a very offensive ability for Zerg, due to it not protecting buildings. I like the idea of giving spawn broodling (or something similar) to the Swarm guardian - It really fits the theme. Also giving Infesters a no-damage short fungal might be just the solution. It will have to be balanced, but without damage, there are really no way for the infestors to be a near complete army on their own. Also, why not give plague to the infestor, but make it a Hive tech upgrade (to delay super fast timings). Then remove IT from infestors leaving them with Fungal, NP and Plague.
Dark Swarm can be an offensive spell, but it can also be used defensively. It's versatile in that regard. I could show you several Pro BW games which demonstrate that.
There is not a problem with the spell itself in my opinion, but there are several problems with the Swarm Guardian. I've already gone into detail on that numerous times, and obviously Kabel agrees with me since he's the one who has prompted the discussion on how we can fix that thing more than once.
Spawn Broodling on SG also does not at all fit the theme, quite the contrary! I just went over that - does it really make sense to have Broodlords and Spawn Broodling in the same game? Or have a snipe/kill spell on a defensive caster which has two other abilities you cast on your own units?
I agree with the no-damage Fungal (which I will continue to call Ensnare to avoid association with a damage dealing spell) but I don't think it would be a good idea to have that and Plague on the same unit, feels like too much overlap as well as the fact that it could still be abusable to mass that singular caster unit, just more annoying to play.
On October 01 2012 00:30 ArkussSC2 wrote:
Wtf is wrong with fungal. It's minor damage and slow. The arguement of "you can't micro out of it" is b.s because you can't really micro out of maelstrom either and it snares you so you just sit there and die. With the pathing in Starbow fungal doesn't grab half your army like it does in SC2 and with units available you dont even lose your footing. You fungal vs protoss they have reavers in the rear shooting all your stuff. You fungal terran bio they have tanks raining hell on you. Fungal is strong but it doesn't "kill" like you think it does. Sure you can fungal lock drop play or something but at actual engagments its not as strong as people think.
Dark Swarm for Zerg is only abusable with lurkers. If Zerg DS's their hydras you just run into the swarm with them or blast the shit out fo them with siege splash or melee units. Ultra/Ling in Dark Swarm is killed by firebat/medic with tanks shooting in and science vessel irradicate or protoss Zealot/Archon with Psi Storms. Dark Swarm is very situational and easily combatible. You can snipe down Swarm Guardians before they even get Dark Swarm off. I really don't see the need for these 2 spells to be under constant debate. I haven't seen anyone post a video saying either spell is OP.
You have completely missed the point. This is not a discussion of what is OP or UP, I am purely talking about design.
Zerg does not need a long-range, damage-dealing, unavoidable AoE effect. The game does not need an unavoidable, damage-dealing, AoE slowing spell. Regardless of how balanced the spell is, it removes interesting interaction from the gameplay. It makes Zerg feel less like Zerg and the Infestor feel less like the stealth-oriented, subversive support caster that Kabel has expressed the desire to see it become, which I agree with.
I also agree that Dark Swarm is not abusable. I have no problem with the spell balance-wise, just the shoddy design of the unit that casts it. Does it work right now? Yes. Could the caster line-up of Zerg be improved by changing it, though? Hell yes.
On October 01 2012 03:37 Laertes wrote:
I agree with Arkuss, how bout we post some VIDEOS of this stuff being OP or UP, we really need hard evidence if we are going to redesign those key spell.
Once again. We aren't redesigning spells for balance reasons. If you can't grasp the difference between the concepts of Design and Balance your criticisms of the ideas of someone who does are not going to carry much weight.
@ SmileZerg
Please stop suggesting things just for the hell of suggesting things, we have solidified the game a LOT, and it would be stupid to use most of your suggestions because they don't fix any problems, some of them are really cool, but there is no time for what-ifs in designing a game, you want something solidified somewhere along the line. What you are suggesting is that something is OP or bad design(you're not so clear about which it is) because of theorycrafting and predictions, please PROVE IT IS OP OR BAD DESIGN BEFORE YOU MAKE SUCH BOLD CLAIMS. I want to see video evidence of it being overpowered, so we can do something about it.
See now I know for a fact you aren't paying attention, because I've made it absolutely 100% crystal clear at least half a dozen times that almost all of my suggestions are design concerns only and not related to balance. There is no video evidence to "prove" something is badly designed. Design exists in the abstract and the dynamics of play, balance on the other hand is determined through the concrete numbers.
Nothing I've suggested has been just "for the hell of it". Again if you were paying attention you'd see most of my posts are in response to Kabel's discussion prompts. He clearly sees that there are still some areas that could use improvement, and given that he has the credentials to show he's a good game designer considering that the current iteration of Starbow was built almost entirely by him, I think the rest of you should listen and realize there is something wrong.
Also I'm really sick of you coming in here like you were hear in the beginning and trying to make this into your own game like you are the developer. LoS told me that you've always wanted to design your own game in the editor but never could figure it out, well here's some help. This site: http://www.sc2mapster.com will help you learn the editor, then you can create your OWN game. But if you are going to come in here and try to transform the game without playing it, then you are going to not be well liked, because all your suggestions require a serious revamping of a game you neither play nor have the ability to make, and you are trying to make starbow YOUR game, not OUR game, we being the Starbow community. I LOVE Starbow, it is well designed, if only because, like Kabel said, it is the logical conclusion of SC1 and SC2. But if you want to make it your game, you are going to have to work for it, you didn't go through the trials and tribulations Kabel did, you have come in here just when the game is getting popular, a full year after it was created, and are trying to transform it.
The Starbow community consists of whoever contributes to, plays, spectates and enjoys the Mod. It is not strictly consigned to people who were "here from the beginning" which is a meaningless distinction for everyone except Kabel. Yes, I have considered designing my own Mod for SC2 before, but then I found Starbow which already had an amazingly well-made foundation going for it. Competing with it would be a bad allocation of energy - by working with the designer I can help make one game better rather than have two Mods which are both inferior to the potential end product of a cooperation. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, no?
I've also gone back and looked through the archives of the thread. You do realize that the game has had many, many major transformations already, and has generally become better for them? In fact, a lot of the changes I'm suggesting don't even come close to being as drastic as things that have already been changed throughout the Mod's history. I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I'm providing suggestions that Kabel has asked for and is interested in reading. We've had several fun and engaging debates which have lead to both of us looking at aspects of the game in new light.
Again, its not that the ideas are bad, its that you don't consider what works and what doesn't, only what you WANT, we would like you if you weren't acting so pretentious and arrogant.
How can any of us consider what works and what doesn't without attempting the changes and seeing how they play out? I'm afraid you're the one being presumptuous here by judging ideas you have not seen put into practice without at least providing some logical counterarguments from a design basis. As for what I want, it is only to contribute to making the game more fun in any way possible. If I come off as pretentious and arrogant it is only towards the people who are arguing with me in a manner that is not constructive.
And that's the truth, it needed to be said, we are all afraid Kabel is going to change the game to fit one of your ideas that don't fit well with Starbow, please know that this is on behalf of everyone playing Starbow, and not just me, and they will attest. Thank you.
If the idea doesn't fit well with Starbow, Kabel will not use it. It's his Mod. I trust that he has a better sense of what will improve the game than most if not all of the others in this community.
On October 01 2012 07:27 Danko__ wrote:
@Laertes
I belive watching and deeply analyzing games can often help with progress even more than playing. So dont be so impolite and keep in mind that not everyone has to share your opinion. Im finding SmileZerg's ideas and notes really interesting.
Thank you, Danko. 
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Swarm Guardians
Please enlighten me on what is oh so bad about a flying caster? The unit is at hive tech and is completely counterable. We've had flying casters before (BW Queen) and in terms of balance theres nothing wrong with it. You can ramble on about design all you want but if the unit is not causing an issue in game play there is no reason to fix it. Don't fix what isn' broken just because it isn't pretty enough for you. The spells it has are balanced, the unit is killable, enough said.
Infestor
Again, I really don't see any issue with fungal growth. You keep going back to "Design" of the unit. Who said infestors are 100% supposed to be stealth casters? Just because they can burrow move? Infestors have been support damage casters since SC2 release as the High Templar have always been. If your problem is the sheer fact it's unavoidable, which it isn't you just have to micro (god forbid you can't clump your army into a ball and run. Isn't that the whole point of this mod? get rid of the deathBALL) your units apart so that fungal doesn't grab your army then we can give fungal an effect like maelstrom how theres a whole 1.5 seconds to get out of the way. As for it not feeling Zergish, no idea what you mean. Zerg has had slow spells (ensnare) and damage spells (plague) since Starcraft 1. The fact one spell does both is not that bad. You keep argueing that it can kill. So can Psionic Storm. Yes you can run out of it but if someone has 10+ High Templars you ain't running away from that unless you're running back to base. Fungal locking is extremely situational and only works on harassment, which requires you have an infestor at the location of the harassment. Also without fungal our Zerg vs Zerg matchups will be a battle of Mutalisks because nothing else stops Muta's as well as fungal + Hydra or your own muta's. Fungal adds versatility to the game and landing "good" fungals isn't as easy as you'd think. I've posted 2 games with infestor use and neither were won just because of the Infestors.
"Design" is great but overall we need balance and that should be the critical issue, not adding/removing things to make the lore fit 100% in a competitive multiplayer game. Theres nothing wrong with a flying caster that as it stands only has 1 key ability (Frenzy is great but situational to build order and style) and a spell that slows the target while doing MINIMAL damage. If you want to focus on what feels Zergy then give me 9 different units that I can mass and A move because realistically thats what zerg is. For the SWARM.
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I have an engagement tonight that I need to go get ready for, but I will come back later and respond to you post, Arkuss. It is well written, and I will try to better explain my concerns.
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I just stand by what I say in that you focus too much on whats pretty and what looks good than whats necessary. I don't mean to put down your thoughts but you can see that there is more than 1 person addressing you on these things. I think more people would appreciate your analyzing in our balance problems we are currently having and make sure that each race has equal chances of winning rather than on fashioning the game up a bit. After the game is fully balanced (or close enough where player skill determins the winner) we can put our emphasis on fixing things like Lore and other features. For now let's just get this game balanced so it can be enjoyed by all.
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EPT
