EPT[A] Starbow - Page 477
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
I don't really see the point in stalker/collosus so might as well give it a try. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On the one hand we want this to fend off mutalisks, on the other we want it to be faster than vultures. It must be relatively strong to fend off mutalisk, but then it should not be too fast, it must be very fast to out-move vultures but then it should not be too strong. We can't have both it seems.... Also, this sounds a lot like a stalker to me. Just to clarify: Fast and strong units should always be a nono. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
The quick phalanx with maybe the blink that was mentioned might be good enough to scout out a muta-rush early enough to get your defense up. I think it's crucial that it is a unit on robotech, so it is not easy to mass (otherwise it might be OP vs zerg in earlygame). | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Keep stalker, make Phalanx just a tiny bit faster than Dragoons with strong in-combat mobility. Give them a "Hover" spell that makes them flying for 1-2 seconds - gain 50% (or more) movement speed and lose all shields and weapons while airborne. Upgrades Hover at Robo bay? Attacks are instant with no delay on attack point and gliding shot - making them move like a flying unit. Range 7 if it is single target - 5-6 if there is splash on the attack. Low shields and mediocre HP - no base armor. The idea is to make it skirt on the edge of battle - vulnerable to flanks, but capable of making a fast reposition with Hover - at the cost of losing a lot of dps and being even more vulnerable to sniping. Hover also serves a secondary purpose as a "Slow blink" that can be countered by anti air. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On December 16 2013 21:36 Hider wrote: I don't see what this unit accomplishes that the current Stalker (with minimial improvements) cannot do as well. Imagine the simple solution: It gets the same attack as the current Colossus (A bit stronger even). 6 range and the ability to quickly reposition with Hover, byt with the drawback of being fragile, and losing a lot of dps from repositioning. To gain all the special benefits of current Colossus (Mobility, free repositioning), if has to sacrifice a lot - allowing it to be MUCH stronger as a fighting unit. I can even see it being roughly the same speed as Dragoons if it gains enough mobility from Hover and a forgiving attack animation. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On December 16 2013 22:31 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: Imagine the simple solution: It gets the same attack as the current Colossus (A bit stronger even). 6 range and the ability to quickly reposition with Hover, byt with the drawback of being fragile, and losing a lot of dps from repositioning. To gain all the special benefits of current Colossus (Mobility, free repositioning), if has to sacrifice a lot - allowing it to be MUCH stronger as a fighting unit. I can even see it being roughly the same speed as Dragoons if it gains enough mobility from Hover and a forgiving attack animation. The problem I see is that if its gonna be very mobile, then it will have to sacrifice cost efficiency, which means that it won't end up being a core part of the protoss army (as the Collosus can be). | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Zerg can flank them with Mutalisks... if the Phalanx stays, its a sitting target; if it starts to hover to flee, it loses shields, and can't contribute to the battle for the next few seconds. Same idea goes for the other Races. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On December 16 2013 23:25 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: You just stated the obvious problem with the current version of the Colossus - It's too mobile. The Colossus just has too much speed and agility with the ability to walk over cliffs and other units. The Hover abilty I outlines is designed to give the same mobility, but at a great cost. Being unable to attack for 2 seconds (or even 3-4) is huge in the middle of a battle, and losing shields will make it basically dead if the ability is activated at the wrong moment. Zerg can flank them with Mutalisks... if the Phalanx stays, its a sitting target; if it starts to hover to flee, it loses shields, and can't contribute to the battle for the next few seconds. Same idea goes for the other Races. The ability to walk over friendly units doesn't really impacts its mobility. That's more related to its agility in battles as it becomes easier to micro. Anyway, Collosus is not too mobile really - Instead the mobility it currently has is needed in order to make it possible to use in aggression. Cliff-walking is imo a very interesting thing that could make it synergize very well with a small group of Stalkers. One of the worst things you can do in Sc2 is too create a semiimmobile unit. Those types of units are generally unmicroable in larger battles (e.g. Thor and Collosus in Sc2). Looking at your posts, you also seem to have a different opinion on how this unit should work out compared to Solid and Kabel who prefer a highly mobile unit. The Collosus has a lot of interesting features that for various reasons didn't work out in Sc2, but easily could work in Sbow if it just gets buffed. Would allow P a new way to fight vs Siege Tanks. Since this unit will not be as massable as Stalkers are, balls of Blinking stuff will not be easy to get. Pretty sure massing Stalkers is quite bad. Theoretically, Stalkers in groups of 5-8 is the optimal number as it makes it possible for the protoss to efficeintly break into weakly defended Siege Tank postiions with useage of the benign-ability. For instance when terrans put turrets and mines and 2 Siege tanks at the 3rd in FS. Combining that defense with a wall-off, protoss now has no way of attacking that position without a huge commitment. A small group of blinking + evade stalkers can, however, do that (in theory). Overmaking Stalkers --> You are too inefficient in a straight up battles. - Would give it even more harass/scouting/map presence potential in all match-ups (and fuuun micro since everyone loves Blink & teleport, right? RIGHT?! :D) Im pretty sure it will be useless as a harassoriented unit unless Robo tech go further down than 150/150. There is just no way you at protoss can afford to build additional robo faciliteis for the sole purpose of improving your harass a bit. I really believe that a harass-oriented unit is much easier to get to work at gateway tech. - It kinda can "abuse" mech play since mines do not affect it at least. (But something more can surely be done) Blinking to avoid being hit by spider mines IMO sounds like a more interesting gameplay IMO. Kabel - I am just not sure what this unit can accomplish that Stalker cannot. I guess this is becasue you A) still want a robo tech unit, but B) feel the Collosus overlaps too much w/ the Dragoon and C) Don't want to change the Dragoon in order to make room for an Immortal. But I still feel that that the correct plan going forward is to keep the current line up and make sure the following two conditions are met; 1) Make sure Collosus is strong enough (aka a bit better than Dragoon) in ground battles. 2) Make sure overmaking Collosus/getting them every single game isn't optimal. Vs zerg it has a clear weakness vs Muta play (that will punish heavy Collosus play). Vs terran it has a weakness vs starport-tech (so part of the solution here is also to buff the banshee in order to make it a bit more difficult for someone that doesn't have enough Dragoons to defend vs banshee harass). At this point, I have to admit that I am a bit frustrated in seeing the lack of priortizing for making sure the Collosus is balanced correctly. When Immortal was added into the game, it was signficiantly underpowered for 3-4 months. That was easily discovered by just making a single test w/ Immortals facing Tanks. Similarly, by making a simple test last week, I discovered that Collosus sucks against Mech (inferior to Dragoons). So ofcourse that's gonna impact the feedback from players, and we may never know how the Collosus feels to use since its so extremely underpowered. The same thing will occur to the Phalanx or the Immortal if we don't spend enough time testing the cost efficiency in basic situations before putting them into the game. So my point is - let's do a bit more homework, and adjust stats so that it at least is balanced according to simple tests. Then we start to discuss whether its fun or not fun to use, and whether we should replace it w/ something else. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
I hate the Colossus by the fact that its name and model forces certain expectations that are really bad for what needs to be done with the unit. (Being hit by AA attacks, cliffwalking ect.) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + At this point, I have to admit that I am a bit frustrated in seeing the lack of priortizing for making sure the Collosus is balanced correctly. When Immortal was added into the game, it was signficiantly underpowered for 3-4 months. That was easily discovered by just making a single test w/ Immortals facing Tanks. I am unsure HOW the Colossus shall become balanced, since there are loads of factors to consider, and possible roads to take. In what types of scenarios is it suppose to be good? What will create the funniest gameplay? You seem to advocate SC2 splash, no AA vulnerability and walk over friendly units as design methods to use as a template for balance. And you have your suggestions for stats. Foxxan suggests very different solutions - both in design and exact stats. (And both of you are atm most involved in playtesting, balance & design work out of the people here in the thread.)Similarly, by making a simple test last week, I discovered that Collosus sucks against Mech (inferior to Dragoons). So ofcourse that's gonna impact the feedback from players, and we may never know how the Collosus feels to use since its so extremely underpowered. The same thing will occur to the Phalanx or the Immortal if we don't spend enough time testing the cost efficiency in basic situations before putting them into the game. So my point is - let's do a bit more homework, and adjust stats so that it at least is balanced according to simple tests. Then we start to discuss whether its fun or not fun to use, and whether we should replace it w/ something else. If you think I am too sloppy or use the wrong methods, I recommend you to learn the basics of the editor. I would gladly receive help with the balance/design work, especially since I am nowadays the only one who works in the editor, since Dec and XiA are busy with other things. This would allow you to do testing vs the AI, modify stats, do more testing, try different scenarios etc. Help to explore the game and collect data, as a way to find a direction in the balance work. If the Colossus is suppose to be decent vs mech, it needs one kind of balance. If it rather shall be more useful vs bio, hydras/roaches, gateway units, it needs another type of balance. I am not sure you are aware of it, but it deals 30 damage vs everything. If it shall deal different dmg vs different armor classes, and full damage vs shields, it will take me a lot of hours to get to work. (Need to create new attack animations, each for every different damage type and make sure the splash works correctly.) And if I create all this, and it turns out it was not needed, then I wasted loads of hours on unnecessary work. Time I kinda don´t want to waste now. That is why I am so eager to find a concept that seems "worthwile" to invest time into. (And why I tried to think about the Phalanx yesterday. Does it have potential to be worth investing time into?) And I am kinda doubtful about the Colossus. Maybe it can become good and fun, but I don´t really see how. Thats why I don´t want to put too much time into detailed balance work. Kinda a moment 22, or whatever is called. Ofc its contra-productive, but thats just how I feel atm. But if more people would help me do this research, that would be really valuable. Just let me know if you, or anyone else here, want to learn the editor, and I will write and send you a guide with pictures & text that explains the basic knowledge needed to modify stats of units + try them vs the AI. (And I will learn you how to control the AI aswell) Within 15 minutes will you have everything set up to do some testing + be able to modify stats. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
If u cant login - u can try go into offline mode - blizzard said so. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
(I did one anyway) How to create a new map with Starbow units: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VsCvwtX.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kpoPAQj.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vMECDqW.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vorp0SS.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RQIAFj4.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7zavnkl.jpg) How to create a trigger so you can control both your and the AI units: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pR6Mdtb.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2yCd8nZ.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7715bj5.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tunx5Yh.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ecft6mT.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L08bbr6.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5e3aApD.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TAKHDPS.jpg) How to modify units (with example of the Colossus) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8BR8Jcl.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vpIumEf.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CITGPcZ.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vUe3gWS.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UOnKedy.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tATIR9t.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XnueOES.jpg) I made it quick now and I hope it is clear enough. PM me for more questions, in case anyone wanna try this. | ||
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IeZaeL
Italy991 Posts
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
In broodwar, terran needed fusion core Protoss needed achieves Zerg no difference Most insignificant here is terran. As mech, he dont need any additional techbuilding, he can go straight to +2 when +1 is done. I believe this drags down gameplay and balance with it. Since terran mech is the most cost effecient units in the game, and upgrades affect them the most. Its just to good to get +2 early with double armory while in broodwar, it was not possible. PvT The 29seconds earlier siegetank is not yet fixed at all here. While they also got their techlab buffed to while no compensation for protoss Now robo will get down to 150/150 but its not enough. I feel they need to unlock their dragoons abit earlier I suggest 150 cyber, maybe 10sec faster bt To be frank i would like to see dragoon range 100/100, even if it will become a "nobrain upgrade", the techlab trick and techlab buff is just huge. Or atleast 150/100. While at the same time i would like to see the techlab further reduced with 5sec bt to make bio a bit better and make the goliath range 100/100 as in bw? Or u think its to much since they can build without armory if they want? Scan I feel 35 energy is to small in mid/late game while at the same time i feel they unlock their seperate scan to late I suggest to make it 50energy, and 36BT on ebay | ||
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